Of church and religion.

[LordBlades]

I've been casually watching this forum for a long time and I've got to say you guys are probably the most supportive bunch I've encountered on the Internet so far.

So, here it goes: I'm not a proper atheist . I neither acknowledge nor deny the existence of god (or whatever other being people might choose to worship). Rather I don't worry much about it (until anyone can present any reliable evidence in either direction at least). What I have an issue with is church (I'm officially an orthodox christian but I have the same opinion in regards to most churches that I know enough about). I consider the church little more than a tool of manipulation and power. This goes doubly so in my country (Romania), where they could erase 'church' and replace with 'thieves guild' and it would be 100% correct. Maybe 1 out of 100 priests is in it out of genuine beliefs, the other 99 are in it for the money.

Now, most of my family including fiancee (everyone apart from my father, who shares part of my ideas in a more passive way: he believes in god but doesn't care much for priests&church) are semi-regular church goers and what passes off as 'good Christians'. We've talked about it in the past and we've agreed to disagree without any major issue.  They think I'm wrong, I think they're wrong, but we respect each other's right to have their own opinion.

Also, I have no problem going to the church on occasions like weddings, funerals etc. I view it as some sort of social event, and I don't give a rat's ass about the religious significance of what's going on in there.

Thing is I'm getting married next year. Now I've got no issues with the wedding ceremony; I view it as a social event, a tradition and something nice to watch photos/videos of after some years. My issue is that apparently it's mandatory to go to a confession before the wedding. So I'm supposed to walk up to a priest (whom I despise) in private, and pretend I'm buying all his bullshit, confess my 'sins' (most of which I don't consider wrong in any way) and look like I repent for them (which I don't really).

The easiest way would be to just do it, which is probably what I'd end up doing because I don't really have a choice. My fiancee is the kind of girl I've been wanting all my life, and I really want to have a family with her. Thing is, part of me considers people who genuinely buy into church doctrines as inferior beings, and there's something inside me that makes me cringe at the very thought of pretending to be one of those guys.

[Prime32]

You could look into a secular ceremony of some kind, if you think your fiancée would go with it.

Confession doesn't take too long, surely? Just be vague. Or talk about your doubts and things that stress you out (avoiding... obvious topics) - therapy is essentially what it's there for anyway. Even if they're a thief, no one is just a thief - they can still want to help others, even if they're bad at it.

[Nanshork]

A) If you know of any priest who's actually doing things the way they're supposed to be done and is not corrupt, etc. then go to them.  They'll be much more likely to be reasonable and talk about whatever you feel comfortable talking about.


B) If you don't (and it sounds like you don't) then remember that you don't have to confess anything.  If you don't consider something a sin or don't want to talk about it then don't.  There's no way the priest will know any better anyway.  Or hell, if you can get away with it without causing issues with the fiancee/marriage/whatever (I don't know how likely this is, if you have to get married by the same priest you're confessing to I can see potential issues cropping up) then tell him that you believe in a private relationship with God and that you don't believe in confession through an intermediary.

[RobbyPants]

My issue is that apparently it's mandatory to go to a confession before the wedding. So I'm supposed to walk up to a priest (whom I despise) in private, and pretend I'm buying all his bullshit, confess my 'sins' (most of which I don't consider wrong in any way) and look like I repent for them (which I don't really).

The easiest way would be to just do it, which is probably what I'd end up doing because I don't really have a choice. My fiancee is the kind of girl I've been wanting all my life, and I really want to have a family with her. Thing is, part of me considers people who genuinely buy into church doctrines as inferior beings, and there's something inside me that makes me cringe at the very thought of pretending to be one of those guys.

Yeah, it's probably easiest to just go along with it from a pragmatic standpoint, but I totally understand the ideological stand you want to take. I'm in a similar boat with my wife. We were both Christian when we got married, but about two years ago, I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believe it. She wants me to keep going to church with the family, which I do, just to keep things simple, although I don't lie about believing; I totally admit to being atheist if the topic comes up at church.

That being said, I've had at least two friends tell me to start faking it because they're worried that the religious differences between us will eventually erode the marriage. I've told them I cannot do that. Actually getting to the point of admitting that I no longer believe was about a two-year process for me. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. I'm not stuffing that all in a closet for purely arbitrary reasons.

So, here it goes: I'm not a proper atheist . I neither acknowledge nor deny the existence of god (or whatever other being people might choose to worship). Rather I don't worry much about it (until anyone can present any reliable evidence in either direction at least).

Minor nitpick: I'd say you are atheist, but I'd further specify that you're an agnostic atheist. An atheist lacks the belief in gods, and the agnostic part says that you don't believe that the stance is fully knowable or provable. This contrasts with a gnostic atheist, who explicitly believes in no gods. I consider myself an agnostic atheist.

(I think this also makes you an apatheist and a functional atheist, which I think are just subsets of agnostic atheism.)

[altpersona]

if she wants a church wedding and you want to be in it, then you play the part.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

You live in Romania?

How did Romanians do semi-churchy in-between
weddings during the Communist era ?  You know,
like Grandmom was a Believer and almost everyone
else didn't want trouble with the Police ; but it was
in a Church anyway.

[phaedrusxy]

if she wants a church wedding and you want to be in it, then you play the part.

The voice of pragmatism (and the married man).  Yeah, I've learned to change/repress/hide a lot of things in the name of staying married... 

[bhu]

Some priests are surprisingly pragmatic.  There's always the chance you'd get one who was ok with you saying "I'm doing this for my wife's sake".

[LordBlades]

You could look into a secular ceremony of some kind, if you think your fiancée would go with it.

Slim chance of that. Even if I could get her to agree, the general population here is pretty old-fashioned(especially the rural people, and her extended family is mostly rural), and 'not getting married properly' would come with a social stigma that I wouldn't want her to bear.

You live in Romania?

How did Romanians do semi-churchy in-between
weddings during the Communist era ?  You know,
like Grandmom was a Believer and almost everyone
else didn't want trouble with the Police ; but it was
in a Church anyway.

I don't have first hand knowledge ( I was 3 when communism fell), but the Romanian communists didn't persecute the church all that much AFAIK. The only long-term blanket measure was exclusion from public spaces (everything the church did had to be in their own spaces, no more public outdoor ceremonies and such), the rest was taking it out on individual priests. As for the common man, if you weren't a trouble maker nor an important person, they didn't bother to hold going to church against you (especially since some priests were communist secret service informants).

if she wants a church wedding and you want to be in it, then you play the part.

The voice of pragmatism (and the married man).  Yeah, I've learned to change/repress/hide a lot of things in the name of staying married... 

That's what I'm going to do most likely  Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

A) If you know of any priest who's actually doing things the way they're supposed to be done and is not corrupt, etc. then go to them.  They'll be much more likely to be reasonable and talk about whatever you feel comfortable talking about.


B) If you don't (and it sounds like you don't) then remember that you don't have to confess anything.  If you don't consider something a sin or don't want to talk about it then don't.  There's no way the priest will know any better anyway.  Or hell, if you can get away with it without causing issues with the fiancee/marriage/whatever (I don't know how likely this is, if you have to get married by the same priest you're confessing to I can see potential issues cropping up) then tell him that you believe in a private relationship with God and that you don't believe in confession through an intermediary.

I have known a couple of decent priests, but sadly it has to be the priest that's going to perform the ceremony. All I can hope is that he's either a decent guy or completely disinterested and it all ends quickly.

[nijineko]

I have known a couple of decent priests, but sadly it has to be the priest that's going to perform the ceremony. All I can hope is that he's either a decent guy or completely disinterested and it all ends quickly.

since that is the framework you have to work within... is there any chance of you (and/or your family) influencing the choice of priest who performs the ceremony? that way perhaps you could hunt up one of the 1% ones? or does that tradition fall on the brides side?

there is always the shock-the-straights approach... just confess everything about how you feel about the church and the corruption involved... maybe call it the sin of pride keeping you away from religion/god.

the only down side would be if you are required to say the penance before the ceremony can continue. =P especially if you get one of the really corrupt ones.

[EjoThims]

there is always the shock-the-straights approach... just confess everything about how you feel about the church and the corruption involved... maybe call it the sin of pride keeping you away from religion/god.

This would be my advice as well, including 'confusing' that you hate doing this all, but are just paying lip service because you love your wife to be and wish to put effort into the symbols she cares for, as meaningless as they may be.

Or you could not risk such offenses right before, but I'm lucky enough to have find one that actually likes that I'm willing to speak my mind plainly even when doing so makes me a total asshole. 

[muktidata]

Do you have to do it in a Catholic setting? Perhaps another denomination (Baptists, non-denominational, EV Free, etc) would let you use their building for a venue, an elder for the ceremony, but with less tradition that makes you do something you don't feel is honest. I'm glad you're getting married! 

[nijineko]

do let us know how it turns out... (assuming it works out well) after the honeymoon and holidays.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

.
Hey Heeyyy ... it's time for
a new Pope ; and the Hat.
 

[Jackinthegreen]

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the Pope standing down.  My respect for him went up a bit because he realized that he's getting too old to do the job properly, and the Catholic church seems to demand a leader who can actually do something right now instead of sit on the throne and effectively be an ornament.

[altpersona]

i dont believe the health/age bit.

i think he is stepping down to avoid / defuse socio-political issues.

he is taking a lot of heat from the pedo cover ups. and they just had that debacle last year w/ the butler...

[veekie]

Well, he IS in his 70s and the Pope requires going all over the world. Bit hard on an old man.

[RobbyPants]

Well, he IS in his 70s and the Pope requires going all over the world. Bit hard on an old man.

You mean 80s? He's 85.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

[Halinn]

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the Pope standing down.

Probably just like if he had died, except this time they know when he's leaving, so they have a bit more time to prepare for the conclave.

I wonder why he didn't just pray for better health.

[bhu]

i dont believe the health/age bit.

i think he is stepping down to avoid / defuse socio-political issues.

he is taking a lot of heat from the pedo cover ups. and they just had that debacle last year w/ the butler...

I'd say it's a little of both.  He's old enough to have retired long ago, and no one his age is in good health (and he's looked pretty bad lately).  I'm also sure he's looked at the oncoming clusterfuck the head of the Church will have to deal with and politely said "I'm too old for this crap.  I should be somewhere fishing."