Author Topic: BESM & Rifts RPG.  (Read 10635 times)

Offline dna1

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BESM & Rifts RPG.
« on: October 09, 2013, 12:41:20 PM »
Just curious. Anyone here ever play them?

I happen to like them both for different reasons.. and was wondering how many others here have tried either of them.
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2013, 12:50:51 PM »
I have played both, though BESM was a very brief foray. Rifts I have quite a bit more experience with (we're fond of the company and as such, it's become our backup system for when D&D isn't doing it).

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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2013, 01:00:19 PM »
Also played both, but like Dkonen, a lot more Rifts than BESM.  I liked BESM a lot, though in a lot of ways it's proto-M&M (the two are very similar), and I've preferred M&M for a lot of that sort of thing.  Indeed, out of an excess of nostalgia I've toyed with doing a hack of M&M for Rifts.

Rifts suffers from two fairly gigantic flaws.  First, the system is totally awful.  Not only is its approach to balance laughable, but it's missing huge, important things.  Or, at least it was when I played it last.  Customizing mecha -- which you'd think would be really high on the priority list for a game that treats equipment as orgiastically as Rifts does -- was just one example of something that was glaringly missing.  It's also clunky, character development is often non-existent, and so on. 

Second, the world/fluff is incredibly spotty.  It's too much of a smorgasbord, and so loses its identity.  And, the identity it has seems at odd with the kind of Mad Max post-apocalyptic genre it purports to be.  It's got more of a Vampire Hunter D type of world, if that helps as a point of reference.  But, that all screams more "D&D with laser guns" than "post apocalyptic hellscape" to me. 

That's my opinion of it, though my last experience was from a long time ago.  Interestingly enough, I may end up playing it again in the near future.  So, we'll see if there have been any significant developments. 

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 01:04:16 PM »
I used to play Rifts quite a bit, and liked the setting and fluff a lot, but not so much the "crunch". The skill system in particular was needlessly complicated (there were even more skills than in D&D 3.X!). I also didn't like how for some classes, leveling up was only a very minor boost in power, but for others it was everything. The gigantic power disparities between different classes could also be problematic, but it was something well known to both players and writers, and explicitly acknowledged in the books, at least. You just had to plan your games around that, with everyone consciously picking similarly-powered characters, or just knowing that some were going to be much more powerful than others, and living with it.

Also, it was kind of annoying that even for a lot of magic using characters, who suffered for using tech items (but I can't really remember to what extent), you were still frequently better off loading up with as much high tech gear as possible than trying to rely on your pathetic magic skills (even if you were high level, generally). The exceptions were if you played something really powerful like a demigod or dragon hatchling, but even then, you'd better be packing some heavy artillery and probably even wearing heavy armor if you didn't want to get dropped by a volley of (mini-)missiles. ;)

However, some of the quite low level spells seemed insanely good. I'm mostly thinking of the one that was basically gigantic flypaper, which seemed indestructible and almost irresistible (or at least our interpretation of it was).

I never played BESM, but looked through it and seemed like it would be amusing. I did play M&M a bit, and that seemed like quite a good system mechanically. I liked it so much that I even looked through some material for using it in fantasy settings (my favorite), but never wound up trying it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 01:07:31 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline dna1

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2013, 01:39:31 PM »
Yea I remember that spell Phae lol.. it was someones in my groups fav spell pretty much. Rifts was fun.. but the leveling sucked as did character creation. Pretty much who ever had the newest book also was the strongest character. Guns in the rifts core book did like 1d6 MDC. Guns in some of the later books were doing like 3d6x10.... lol



BESM is actually super easy to play, and its really fun because you can make anything you want. The problem is its easily broken and abused. Atleast the non d20 version. Which apparently BESM d20 is super rare and expensive. I saw it once and didn't get it because I have the other books already. Kicking my self now haha
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2013, 03:03:20 PM »
They dialed back some of the "more current books are more powerful" stuff... mostly because they hit their apex with south america 2, which Siembada has admitted he should have never let go to print without looking it over first. Even he thinks the power creep was ... disproportionate.

Everything's slowly evening out, and in truth, a lot of Rifts games should be skill heavy, or at least more skill heavy than your typical games (combat, combat, some rp, oo a skill check! combat, combat). You really have to keep systems in mind when you run them, mechanics can tell you what's generally favored in games for gameplay.

And yes, levelling up, in most cases, doesn't make that much of a difference, it's part of why we throw other things in to make it a bit more of a scale. Bigger tech, better spells and powers, Allies and contacts, money and bases, etc. It isn't so much your character's level that gives them a tangible boost, but what they've done/accomplished/obtained that makes the biggest difference. In some ways, I like it, since it focuses more on plot and story arcs, in others it's somewhat dissappointing.

Like every system it needs tinkering to wring the most out of it, and a specific mindset on the part of the person running the game.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 03:44:01 PM »
Dkonen is much more favorably disposed towards Rifts rules than I am.  Unless there's been a sea change since the last time I cracked a book, the game has not really evolved in ... 20 or so years? 

Everything's slowly evening out, and in truth, a lot of Rifts games should be skill heavy, or at least more skill heavy than your typical games (combat, combat, some rp, oo a skill check! combat, combat). You really have to keep systems in mind when you run them, mechanics can tell you what's generally favored in games for gameplay.
I agree with this, and view it as one of the great failings in many games.  White Wolf, for instance, had games ostensibly about social interactions when nearly everything in the game and the character sheet was related to combat and there were virtually no social influence rules.

What I have to strongly disagree with is the idea that Rifts is somehow -- as a system, a setting, and a game -- not combat-obsessed.  The game has more pages about guns alone than many games have rules.  And, with the notable exception of Bonsai and Game Design (both actual skills in the Palladium corpus), a sizable portion of the rules are intimately related to murdering things. 

That's not a criticism on my part.  I fully expect a game about giant robots, ninjas, and dragons to be Asskick Central.*  But, I think if that game only really "works" if combat is not the focus, then there has been a fundamental breakdown somewhere along the line. 


EDIT:  the above comments may overread Dkonen's comment.  E.g., he might be referring to Rifts games that have the same relationship with skill checks as Winston Churchill did with vermouth.  Apologies if that's the case.  I think the general point -- that Rifts is a combat-oriented game and should be treated and judged based on that -- still stands.


*Although Rifts does perpetuate RPGs' weird obsession with prostitutes, viz. the Mexico book. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 03:49:27 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline CaptRory

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 03:59:33 PM »
I have played both extensively.

I LOVED the fluff in Rifts. You could go anywhere and do anything. The crunch was such a mess that I ended up having to standardize the rules as we went along. It was just a real mess.

I still play/run BESM2e games. The rules are incredibly adaptable, but you really need a gentleman's agreement going into it because it is really easy to break the game wide open. Its a great system for players more interested in roleplaying than powergaming. Your character can do anything. But even without really trying you could make a combat monster that can destroy the Earth. Or ridiculous levels of illusions and mind control that let you steam roll the game. So, you need to be careful about that both as a player and a GM.

Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 04:18:54 PM »
Well firstly, it's *she* but I get that a lot :P

I use this handle specifically because I don't typically specify in some of my less active forum posts elsewhere in the internet (especially places where it makes a difference >.< )

I'm not saying it's entirely skill based, Just more so than most games, thus why the plethora of skills and available skill checks. Even piloting a SAMAS in combat requires skill checks. And Combat driving, and sniping and....you get my drift. There are actually about a dozen skills that are actually used as part of combat. So skills can overlap within combat it's not always one or the other.

However, I find that with all the skills out there, the game system lends itself better to a "more than just combat" style game. Gods forbid you have a techno wiz added in...then you get math, formulae and all kinds of fun throwin'-crap-together, which can be a minigame in and of itself.

And then there's rules for creating AIs if you really want to go there. (One day....)

I find Rifts works better as a "go break into X experimental lab, steal the plans and eliminate opposition however you see fit." game rather than a game of random encounters. Even as a DB you can bluff/stealth/bribe/intimidate/scam your way past the CS... I guess the fluff reflects the crunch. You can do almost anything within it, and while combat does have set skills, you have more ways to avoid combat than pretty much any other game I've ever played.

Bad guys in the guard room? Do you:
a) forge fake papers and pretend to be an official?
b)engage the security defenses from a nearby panel and gas them?
c)set off alarms in another part of the complex, forcing them to run off to take care of it?
d)sneak past them?
e)send in something to grab what you need and pop back out?
f)brew up a chemical agent and toss it in?
g)blow up the room?
h)cause the floor/ceiling to collapse?

etc etc.

Yes there are a lot of guns (there are more skills).

There's also a ton of vehicles, cybernetics, medical devices, generic equipment (at least five different types of personal computers, and I think nine or so different types of radios), it's a very rich diverse world with engaging lively trade consortiums and civilizations at various states of development. That doesn't mean it's all about combat any more than having a crapton of vehicles means it's all about racing, or having a listing for medical devices at various stages (including bio enhancements) means it's a medical game.

Combat is pivotal, but in Rifts, unlike so many others, it doesn't have to be. It can be just a vehicle to get to the plot points, and in fact I've been in campaigns where it is. Shooting bad guys was just to get the info/contact/access to the tech needed to further the story. I think that one we ended up running our own company by the end of it, stocked up on one of the nicer levels of Phase World.

No, I'm not saying it doesn't have combat, or even that it utterly minimizes it, or that it's *all* about skills, but skills in Rifts can be as or more important than how many times you shoot/stab/blast things.

I've seen completely combat centered characters in Rifts games...about two thirds of the campaign they were off scene twiddling their thumbs. A skillful character with next to no combat viability is much more useful in rifts than a combat centered character with no skill viability*.

(*again dependent on who's running, but I do maintain that rifts runs better with a heavier focus on skills than combat-not no combat, just less than skill use)

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Offline Atmo

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 04:42:24 PM »
BESM is actually super easy to play, and its really fun because you can make anything you want. The problem is its easily broken and abused. Atleast the non d20 version. Which apparently BESM d20 is super rare and expensive. I saw it once and didn't get it because I have the other books already. Kicking my self now haha

3e was what called my attention to BESM, and i regret till this moment i didn't started my "RPG carreer" with BESM d20. Yes, it's easely broken, but you can talk with your players and determine what they want and how much they attacks can do at max cap (that you guys decided).

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 05:07:28 PM »
Well firstly, it's *she* but I get that a lot :P

I use this handle specifically because I don't typically specify in some of my less active forum posts elsewhere in the internet (especially places where it makes a difference >.< )
Damn.  I'm sorry about that.  I'll do my best to remember. 

For the sake of argument (I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, but I'm interested in where it ends up),
Bad guys in the guard room? Do you:
a) forge fake papers and pretend to be an official?
b)engage the security defenses from a nearby panel and gas them?
c)set off alarms in another part of the complex, forcing them to run off to take care of it?
d)sneak past them?
e)send in something to grab what you need and pop back out?
f)brew up a chemical agent and toss it in?
g)blow up the room?
h)cause the floor/ceiling to collapse?
how is this all that different than a D&D game?  Or, any other game?  Controlling for some slight differences, such as the existence or non-existence of technology.  It strikes me that this is a very interesting list of things that would be available to pretty much any group of players in any game. 

And, it seems that there are a number of peculiarities to Rifts that actually make this list less viable than it would otherwise be.  Consider (b) and (f).  Environmentally-sealed armor is ubiquitous in Rifts, so that's unlikely to work.  And, even if they for some reason lack that or don't have helmets handy, do the mechanics support it?  What's the equivalent of a save DC going to be on it?  Likewise, (g) and (h) are largely stymied by mega-damage:  anyone who can survive any amount of MD can survive a ceiling collapse.  Option (g) might still work, but that requires enough firepower to essentially win the entire battle in one round. 


However, I find that with all the skills out there, the game system lends itself better to a "more than just combat" style game. Gods forbid you have a techno wiz added in...then you get math, formulae and all kinds of fun throwin'-crap-together, which can be a minigame in and of itself.

And then there's rules for creating AIs if you really want to go there. (One day....)
This highlights the promise and the problem of Rifts.  There is a chart for an AI, for a civilization, for a Police Department (ok, that last one is from Ninjas & Superspies, I think, but you get the idea).  Is there a single mechanic for modifying your character's prized suit of power armor?  Granted, it's been ages for me, but not as of last time I checked.  Why is there no system akin to Battletech or any other equipment-based game (e.g., Star Wars' upgrade/downgrade system)? 

Likewise, I distinctly recall techno-wizardry being less about customization and more about picking from a pregenerated list prepared for you, many of which were terrible. 


I have feelings about the importance or lack thereof of combat in Rifts, but it's neither here nor there.  I didn't see how combat was any more or less pivotal in Rifts than it was in any other adventure game, e.g., D&D, M&M, Star Wars.  It did occur to me, though, that a gigantic list of skills actually makes it harder to make them a big part of the game.  A character is going to have something like 10-20 skills, many of them pre-selected by virtue of class.  And, adding skills is difficult.  If I'm remembering correctly some characters get to add maybe 4 or 5 over their entire career! 

Unless they've added some new mechanic, there's no "untrained" skill use.  You've either got it or you don't.  With a long, detailed skill list your odds of having "it" are pretty low. 


P.S.:  game balance is pretty overrated.

Offline Arz

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 05:54:07 PM »
Bad guys in the guard room? Do you:
a) forge fake papers and pretend to be an official?
b)engage the security defenses from a nearby panel and gas them?
c)set off alarms in another part of the complex, forcing them to run off to take care of it?
d)sneak past them?
e)send in something to grab what you need and pop back out?
f)brew up a chemical agent and toss it in?
g)blow up the room?
h)cause the floor/ceiling to collapse?
how is this all that different than a D&D game?  Or, any other game?  Controlling for some slight differences, such as the existence or non-existence of technology.  It strikes me that this is a very interesting list of things that would be available to pretty much any group of players in any game. 

And, it seems that there are a number of peculiarities to Rifts that actually make this list less viable than it would otherwise be.  Consider (b) and (f).  Environmentally-sealed armor is ubiquitous in Rifts, so that's unlikely to work.  And, even if they for some reason lack that or don't have helmets handy, do the mechanics support it?  What's the equivalent of a save DC going to be on it?  Likewise, (g) and (h) are largely stymied by mega-damage:  anyone who can survive any amount of MD can survive a ceiling collapse.  Option (g) might still work, but that requires enough firepower to essentially win the entire battle in one round. 
[/quote]

I think this is more in reference to D&D's more reactive stance to plot, location, and action. Whereas in many games its: here's the problem and a couple leads. Go! To! It!

Sure you still have set pieces but the players can choose not to go to all or any of them.

Though I've found this style of play not too common in Rifts myself.

Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 07:57:36 PM »
There are actually "DCs" for a number of those.

Now, this is pending you have the library we've acquired (which has gotten rather...extensive), but there are rules for poisons and toxins and Mega Damage creatures, chemical agents are not all human specific (some affect only specific types/species of DBs), G and H depends on the structure you're in. Again there are rules for mega damage versus SDC buildings collapsing and types of explosives used.

Seriously, there are rules for *everything* in rifts... you may just have to go through several different books to get to them. About the only thing I *haven't* seen rules for is for playing a bio wizard, but they probably have that-or something like- in Splicers (which I'd like to pick up at some point).

How is it different? The rules actually don't support a number of those things in D&D, at least not reasonably. Mostly it's lack of detail from system to system, and D&D is simplified for easy play, easy numbers. There are only a few ways to do any of these, and honestly it boils down to "make a skill check...you win". If someone's running rifts as a handwave skill check encounter, well no doubt combat is going to be seen as more important. You can hand wave it, but there are also *much* more extensive rule systems for doing any one of those.

Rifts hasn't gone through multiple edition changes, ownership and revamps. So, the rules have just been consistently added to with each release. It started with a solid foundation and just kept growing without ever tearing anything down. The sheer amount of detail you can go into with a character is only limited by your access to books and willingness to research.

The techno wizardry formulas are actually present in the techno wiz creation rules (I think it's appended to the end of the OCC but before the items in a ginormous wall of text), both I, and another of our regulars has played one to great effect. It's hella expensive and, like creating magic items in D&D, there's some give and take outside the rules (gauntlets of true strike anyone?). The formulas are there, they're just, like a lot of rules, not in the most obvious spot to find.

That would actually be my biggest gripe with Rifts, the rules are scattered *everywhere*! The core is all you really need, for a basic game, but there's stuff in sourcebooks, worldbooks, and dimension books, not to mention rifters and references to non rifts palladium products. There are rules for almost everything, but they're a pain in the butt to find sometimes.

I have played a non combatant in D&D. I have played a non combatant in Rifts. I have even played a non combatant in Mechwarrior (yes it was more to irritate a GM who refused to admit he ran victim games... I played a character who he couldn't make a victim, since she was never in the big fights).  I will never play another non combatant in D&D again. Oh, and the rules for modifying and upgrading equipment exist as well... it's under the jury rig/mechanics skills. Or robotics and power armor... or whatever relevant skill to the item you're looking to upgrade/modify. There's even basic rules for making your own body armor, and stats for it in the body armor equipment section.

Like I said, there are rules  for *everything*... except biowizards. :P

(I think the poisons/agents affecting DBs is in one of the coalition wars books, or possibly siege on tolkeen, and demolitions rules in Mercs .. howvere I'm not entirely sure. That's a ton of books to go through.....)

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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 11:27:25 PM »
This is the first time I've seen the skill system of Rifts touted.  Where are these elaborate skill systems you are referring to?  I have access to Rifts Ultimate and most world books up to the Xiticix Invasion.  Is there even a rule in Rifts for contested skill checks?  Untrained checks?  Related skill checks?  This last one is important b/c the skill system is labyrinthine.  There are so many, often very specific skills. 

Rifts has, if anything, a more simplistic skill system than most games.  All it's got is more of them. 

In Rifts Ultimate the entirety of skill modifiers in gameplay fits on one page (page 301).  And it seems a page that everyone has got to ignore.  A -20% in high pressure situations means that experienced Military Pilots will be crashing about half of the time a skill check is called for.  (52% base + 15% OCC bonus -20% pressure modifier, roughly). 

I kind of hesitate to go on.  But, I was struck by the claim that Rifts has rules for everything.  Although before I say anything else, you've misunderstood my claim.  I wasn't doubting that you could bring a building down on some people in Rifts.  I was questioning its utility since at most you'll annoy them since they will be likely immune to the rubble and the toxins due to the ubiquity of MDC and environmentally sealed armor. 

My recollection -- and granted this is from a long, long time ago -- was just the opposite.  That you found yourself winging it for things that seemed to me to be basic.  I'll give you two examples, and maybe you can point to me where the guidelines are.  I couldn't find them in Rifts Ultimate, though as we all acknowledge organization is not a strong suit.

Question 1:  I want to swap out one weapon system on my power armor for a system on another power armor.  Can I?  Any restrictions?  Any guidance at all in the rules or are we just relying on the GM?  Don't get me wrong, GMs can be awesome, but Rifts is not exactly what you would call rules-lite, and for a game that is unabashedly in love with its gear, no rules for modifying it outside of a handful of classes specifically dedicated to it is a glaring gap. 

Question 2:  my buddy would like to make field repairs to his ATV.  How much MDC can he repair during downtime?  At what cost?  The only mention I could find in Rifts Ultimate relates to a specific class, the Operator (essentially a super mechanic).  Is there only a single OCC or handful of OCCs capable of making repairs in the Rifts universe? 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:33:25 PM by Unbeliever »

Offline dna1

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 11:34:12 PM »
You guys both make good points about Rifts.

Like with any RPG each DM can run it differently. Usually our games were pretty combat heavy. But also very RP heavy.. thats just how my group was though. As a player and a DM I know that I like a good mixture of both. And I like creating different and odd stuff so Rifts actually fit really well with me.

I like the options and how much you can do right off the get go in rifts. Its fun to make a level 1 character that can shit out rune weapons and can bind major demons etc. One of Rifts biggest cool points is that you can be pretty much anything, and if you want to play a combat character or a crafter or what ever you can do it and still be badass.

Its just that as I said earlier all the best stuff is in the newest books. So you end up needing looking between 50 books to cherry pick each skills. Which ends up taking a long time to create a character. I remember we had to make a custom character sheet to.

By the way.. favorite classes I ever played were Dragon Juicer, and Mind Melter. Both super fun.


You guys ever play the Palladium system Macross game? I never got to try Robotech.. we made characters but never got around to playing.

edit: BTW unbeliever that kind of stuff came up all the time. Usually you would just roll the closest skill and the DM would wing it if no one could find something close to that in the book.
In the Psyscape book there was this Psi-mechanic that could do abunch of cool stuff.. and actually I think the Triax books had stuff for repairing and Moding mechs.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:38:15 PM by dna1 »
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Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 11:47:03 PM »
Question #2 does indeed have an answer-I'll look it up and have it for you tomorrow. Field repairs are under Jury rig. Or under another skill which I had on a character but can't remember right now-again have it for you tomorrow

Question#1 I'll have to actually search for. I *think* there's a specific for swapping weapon systems but I'm not sure.

(this is also only comparable to 2ed mechwarrior, unless you're talking omni mechs which were specifically designed with that in mind-in which case, I will point you to a number of varieties and types given for some of the later vehicles-even some of the core ultimate which have "swap out/substitution" options, possibly even some of the guns and other equipment. Later editions of mechwarrior make it a PiTA unless you have a very exp liberal GM to do)

Not everyone has environmental armor, nor should they. MDC buildings can do MDC damage. Sheer weight can actually do MD damage as can high velocity impacts (I think that's in the juicers book...maybe uprising, maybe new quebec, maybe elsewhere not sure...was for Hyperion FAQs)

Every Skill that involves "complex" checks (like techs and electronics etc) has a modifiers block in and of itself within the skill description. That's beyond the page you're referring to, which I guess even I've ignored (have to mark it next time). Proper tools, other relevant skills, materials at hand...etc.

Mixing and matching your skills up depends on what you can do with the character. That's why I see it as a more vibrant skill system, since it's the combination of skills and OCC that determine just what you can do. Nothing's really under an umbrella, so to speak, or rather not much of one by comparison to D&D. You have electronic surveillance, which is different than video surveillance, which is different from radio communications, which is different from ECCM, which is different from computer programming, which... etc... Each can be used on their own, but having them all together forms a cohesive functioning unit that covers more than just each skill separately.

It's like a puzzle with a hundred pieces and you configure it as you decide skills and OCC, and depending, even race. It allows for a variety of customizations and twists on similar concepts that can end end quite different.

Also that's a base military pilot, without int skill bonus or levels, think more like a recent graduate rather than a veteran. Yeah, I'd expect a guy so new to his wings he squeaks if he turns around too fast to flake out under high pressure. He's only known class rooms and simulators. It's within reason. Especially since the guy's probably not even that high up in his class with an average int (no bonus). (Also don't forget that he also needs more than just pilot to fly in combat-and that rifts planes aren't meant for combat, that's what power armor and hover carriers are for :P)




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Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 11:48:01 PM »
I ran an evil robotech game for two years... I still get asked to pick it up again. A lot of fun but you've gotta (of course) tinker a bit. Mostly with the fluff, actually, it's a bit rigid.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 10:42:43 AM »
You guys both make good points about Rifts.
Thanks.  And your comments in the above post are pretty much my experience as well.  Although I was the premiere Rifts GM for a long time there, so most of my experience was on one side of the screen. 

edit: BTW unbeliever that kind of stuff came up all the time. Usually you would just roll the closest skill and the DM would wing it if no one could find something close to that in the book.
In the Psyscape book there was this Psi-mechanic that could do abunch of cool stuff.. and actually I think the Triax books had stuff for repairing and Moding mechs.
Yeah, "winging it" was essentially the watchword when it came to Rifts.  And, I like to consider myself a reasonably smart, adaptable, and big-hearted GM, so it was rarely much of an issue.  I'll be curious to hear if there are newer rules, e.g., the modding stuff you were alluding to, that I'm not aware of.  Most of these comments have been from the hoary vaults of my memory.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that you can't have a blast with Rifts, especially with a good GM.  Although some issues, like cumbersome character creation, may put a dampener on the fun.  Or that you can't handle the issues I'm alluding to with grace, and even fun.  Some of my fondest memories of gaming come from hashing these things out over a table with a buddy, both as a player and a GM. 

But, we're talking about the system itself.  Or, as I summed up at a Con recently:  "what exactly am I paying Kevin for again?" 

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 10:51:26 AM »
Mixing and matching your skills up depends on what you can do with the character. That's why I see it as a more vibrant skill system, since it's the combination of skills and OCC that determine just what you can do. Nothing's really under an umbrella, so to speak, or rather not much of one by comparison to D&D. You have electronic surveillance, which is different than video surveillance, which is different from radio communications, which is different from ECCM, which is different from computer programming, which... etc... Each can be used on their own, but having them all together forms a cohesive functioning unit that covers more than just each skill separately.

It's like a puzzle with a hundred pieces and you configure it as you decide skills and OCC, and depending, even race. It allows for a variety of customizations and twists on similar concepts that can end end quite different.
That seems to be a different form of complexity than I was alluding to.  One that I think I find fairly frustrating.  It's entirely too easy to make a character whose concept is "mechanic" and then suddenly not be able to repair or tweak the random vehicle you come across.  This becomes even more important when you're thinking about throwing random abilities or side elements onto a given concept and will be chagrined to find that you "missed one" skill. 

I'm content to leave our comments as two perspectives on the same system.  Though feel free to have the last word if you've got some further comments.  Sort of an occupational hazard with 1-way communication like this. 


Also that's a base military pilot, without int skill bonus or levels, think more like a recent graduate rather than a veteran. Yeah, I'd expect a guy so new to his wings he squeaks if he turns around too fast to flake out under high pressure. He's only known class rooms and simulators. It's within reason. Especially since the guy's probably not even that high up in his class with an average int (no bonus). (Also don't forget that he also needs more than just pilot to fly in combat-and that rifts planes aren't meant for combat, that's what power armor and hover carriers are for :P)
I think the skill in question was like +3% per level (Military Helicopters or something).  So, you'd have to be like 8th level before you're experienced enough to make a combat maneuver without even odds of crashing.   How many Rifts campaigns even last that long?  :P  Not to mention that, how does the Coalition field an army with those odds?  No wonder they use a lot of grunts ...

Offline Dkonen

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Re: BESM & Rifts RPG.
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 12:23:12 PM »
Nope I'm good, besides the pilot thing.

You could get to 65 ish percent, which really, if you think about fighter jets in air battles (which in reality don't happen very much), a lot of them go down (either getting hit or crashing). I maintain it's still not that unreasonable, other than the fact rifts doesn't use planes for battle, so this *shouldn't* come up. Pilot robots and Power armor should be your go to for air battles, since I think there's a fluff reason why flying about 10k feet is a bad idea.

(I know there's a cthulu in the trench which is why there's no cross continent travel, but I can't remember why they don't have planes.....)

But yeah, we have different ideas. I find Rift needs to be approached in a certain way for a campaign to have any longevity (and I am one of those who has played past 8th...several times.. we generally don't run short games unless somethings goes wrong), and personal playstyle does come into it for how you run/play and what needs to be tinkered with.

Honestly, Rifts can be a nightmare of micromanagement and hidden rules. In the right mood, I'm fascinated by it. It's like a literary hide and seek, and a higher complexity puzzle game. Some times that's the kind of game I'm up for. Some times folks would rather just go with a game. I *can* do either.

But most definitely different views. Which is good. :D
I wouldn't always have to be right if so many people didn't insist on always being wrong.