Author Topic: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"  (Read 22233 times)

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2012, 10:11:08 AM »
<Snip>
Oh snap!

lol


On a similar note, know of any Benchmark Handbook so people have a fair idea of what to expect to need by what level?  Even if there's no said handbook, when do you expect people need these things?

Continual flight, preferably extraordinary flight:
Teleportation:
Reliable interplanar travel:
Party revival capability:
True seeing when you need it, preferably continuously:
Death ward when you need it, preferably continuously:
Freedom of movement when you need it, preferably continuously:
Mind blank when you need it, preferably continuously:
Anything else I've missed:

well, lets compare to my highest level party currently actively playing (a group of 8 players, only 4 of which show up reliably, which means a total of 6 pcs all but one of which are 18th level, the remaining one is 16th level) :

continual flight: yes. i've already mentioned options, i won't cover them again here. not a problem.
teleportation: yes - and they couldn't teleport to their next destination because no one had ever been there, and they didn't like the odds on the table, and didn't select builds with access to rerolls and suchlike. so they had to hunt around for a teleport locate, and got embroiled in a side quest. now that they found the locate and can teleport reliably anytime they feel like it, they aren't because they don't feel they can just leave the side quest undone. and they aren't teleporting around the side quest either for the same reason - they don't like the 25% odds that they will fail the 'port. they don't have access to greater teleport yet-the 16th level character is the only one with teleport.
reliable planar travel: no, astral travel or planar travel have not been selected as options.
party revival capability: no, but they found a way around the last time someone died with their contacts. they really need to fix this one.
true seeing: yes, but not continually. besides, it is easy enough to defeat.
death ward: yes, but not continually.
freedom of movement: no, actually. no one has selected these options. it would be more challenging for me if they did. =D
mind blank: no, but a couple of characters could easily get access to it if they chose. besides, this is also defeat-able without too much effort.
anything else: a few, but nothing that i can't handle (and i only do that on an occasional basis so as to not take away the fun of what they have earned/selected, but still remind them to keep on their toes).



so far, nothing has been listed that i would consider 'i can't handle it'. even if the party did have all these listed effects going 24/7, it wouldn't necessitate much change to my plot, encounters, or approach in challenging them. (i think it's important to note here that "beating" the pcs is not required, it's important to let them have fun with power and get away with stuff. there's always a counter, and i save those up so that when a villain or opponent counters them at something, the really feel it, and remember it ever after.) =D



Remember, also, that at least a significant minority of campaigns don't deal with that many instances of leveling up before the campaign ends; surveys taken on this board indicate games that last more than 4 - 5 levels before dying out (for whatever reason) are a minority - and we're fairly invested in the hobby as a rule.  That means that a lot of folks can get tunnel vision, looking only at the things their particular character may get or want within a specific band of that character's "adventuring life," never considering options that are unlikely to apply within that time period (doubly so if they're not especially optimization focused, since a lot of optimization involves planning ahead).  So, discussions of what folks learn "in the process of leveling up" doesn't necessarily apply in a lot of games, because they don't touch on those levels with those class abilities.

and that is an excellent point, well worth bearing in mind.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:22:50 AM by nijineko »

Offline sirpercival

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2012, 10:14:45 AM »
Well, your party is not particularly optimized, if they're such high level and that list is full of "no's".  They've apparently never heard of IP proofing.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2012, 10:28:45 AM »
so far, nothing has been listed that i would consider 'i can't handle it'. even if the party did have all these listed effects going 24/7, it wouldn't necessitate much change to my plot, encounters, or approach in challenging them. (i think it's important to note here that "beating" the pcs is not required, it's important to let them have fun with power and get away with stuff. there's always a counter, and i save those up so that when a villain or opponent counters them at something, the really feel it, and remember it ever after.) =D
Agreed.  Just to reiterate my earlier comment, there's a lot of space between "I can't handle this" and "this annoys me."  In particular, along the lines of the above quote, if I as a DM have to counter something every single encounter, then the whole dynamic starts to lose its punch.  Also, as is well-known on these boards, some abilities in D&D are not well-thought-out and have the effect of effectively negating various (cool) archetypes and encounters.  All of which I think is bad.

That being said, I'll never begrudge a player their Ring of Freedom of Movement or selecting the spell True Seeing (although I have de facto banned Mind Blank, but that's another discussion).  However, I do think a game would suffer if continuous FoM or TS effects were considered standard operating procedure. 

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2012, 10:31:38 AM »
Well, your party is not particularly optimized, if they're such high level and that list is full of "no's".  They've apparently never heard of IP proofing.

i know, right? the thing is, they can get access to all that stuff whenever they want, and i haven't hit them upside the head yet with the lack of it. i'm timing this smack-down for maximum impression, both from a plot point of view and from the player psychology point of view. only one of the players is a hardcore maximizer, and he builds most of the rest of the player's characters. this has the beneficial effect of putting about half the party on roughly the same power level. however, he maximizes the builds to the individual player's desired concept and specification, even if that is not the most meta-game/group-optimized form. so that leaves holes in the group loadout from a meta-game perspective.



« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:40:27 AM by nijineko »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2012, 10:33:50 AM »
^ my opinion on Mind Blank is more of a personal annoyance/pet peeve than it is a deep-seated game balance issue. 

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2012, 10:40:54 AM »
Quote
That being said, I'll never begrudge a player their Ring of Freedom of Movement or selecting the spell True Seeing (although I have de facto banned Mind Blank, but that's another discussion).  However, I do think a game would suffer if continuous FoM or TS effects were considered standard operating procedure.

even mind blank can be easily countered by shatter mind blank and metafaculty just to name two off the top of my head. and a villain doesn't have to know it, they just have to know someone who does, and pay for it. which is just yet another behind the scenes plot-hook and opportunity for the party to get a lead on the villain, even possibly use the same tactic on a future villain, with more plot hooks all around.... ^^ increases the fun, i say.

as you say, it isn't really a game balance issue.




i'm starting to notice what appears to be a fundamental difference in attitude between most of the viewpoints expressed and mine. whereas many see these abilities as irritations, annoyances, plot/game/story breakers - glass half-empty view....

i view these as fun and exciting challenges. a puzzle for me as the dm to enjoy the game with and come up with a plausible and in-context, non-metagame answer/counter for it. just like i challenge the players with puzzles, be they in the form of monsters, weird riddles, skill checks, mind games and so on... these abilities are how i get to play and be challenged and puzzled as a dm. only on a much bigger scale. it is such great fun when they do this stuff to me, i can't wait till they start making it more difficult! and i get to make the game fun for the players too, as an added bonus! =D

glass half-full. or maybe even i-don't-care-if-it-really-is-almost-empty-the-more-challenge-the-better!   :plotting

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2012, 10:59:20 AM »
I think one of the chief advantages D&D has is its plug and play nature.  The monster manuals make running the game much easier than almost anything else on the market.  For most other games I have to painstakingly make the villains, craft each one like a beautiful and unique snowflake.  Which is a giant pain in the ass.

So, there's a big advantage to being able to just use things in the books without much modification.  Furthermore, for many DMs, especially those relatively less familiar with the system, knowing what the right/possible counters are to the myriad abilities deployed by the PCs is daunting in its own right. 

Generally, I want to reduce the influence of system mastery.  I want people to come up with more creative or intuitive solutions than "I have read a lot of D&D books."  And, I say that as the person who is most likely to have read the books.  I freely admit this is a personal preference rather than a value judgment. 


P.S.:  as a DM, I tend to create encounters in a vacuum.  That is, I don't really take into account what the PCs can do, and trust that they can manage whatever (semi-balanced) thing I throw at them.  This doesn't always work out.  It's only if they become famous or have recurring villains that the villains try to specifically adapt to their tactics, and even then it's not something I do often.  That's part of my style, and part of my restraint as a DM.  Others, I am sure, differ in this regard.

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2012, 11:30:44 AM »
excellent points. thank you for the insight into your dm'ing style.

hmmm, system mastery. i want to say that there is nothing wrong with it, but then i have seen how hard it is sometimes for a player to downplay system mastery in-character when they should. likewise, when you have a bunch of players all over the books in character concepts and selections, then it is a lot harder to make ones self take the time to master not only their characters, but possible work-with and work-arounds.

i find, personally, that my system mastery actually helps me be creative. it gives me guidelines and structures for avenues of research and guessing. on the other hand, it can also limit one-get you stuck inside the box as it were, should that essential core spark of creativity and cleverness be weak or absent for some reason.

actually, i also do not tailor encounters to the pcs until their reputation and renown scores start to get up there. i just throw stuff at them (though i do keep an eye on their ability to have options - beat it, avoid it, trick it, trap it, etc...) , sometimes they trounce it, other times they struggle but win, sometimes they retreat, and occasionally they run away screaming like little girls.

heh, that reminds me, the last time i managed that was when the party was mostly about 17th level. (the potential encounter had barely started opening the door when they started running.... okay it was a really big door, something like 10 stories tall. and when they saw what was coming through the door, boy did they scramble!)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 11:36:11 AM by nijineko »

Offline Halinn

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2012, 01:40:31 PM »
In Short, I now hate GURPS with a passion. GURPS sucks. I don't care if it was one bad GM. Any game that could attract a inhuman GM who railroads like that needs to be burned. There must be something wrong on a fundimental level with GURPS for anyone like him to want to play GURPS so bad. In my Gut, I know, GURPS is wrong. The Angles are wrong. The game will drive a man insane and make them want to shave their head and masterbate in public. I have no proof of this. I just KNOW. In my heart. It. Is. WRONG.
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Offline FlaminCows

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2012, 02:00:28 PM »
He knows, Halinn, that's why it was laid so thick.  :P

It was a self-aware use of it, to the point of humour. You needn't state the obvious, as it wasn't meant to be an argument. The "I have no proof of this" should have clued you in, if the "shave head and masturbate in public" bit didn't.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2012, 04:54:55 PM »
excellent points. thank you for the insight into your dm'ing style.
No problem, I just wanted to do my best to articulate the argument in favor of the "let's excise this from the game approach" as opposed to the "there is a counter to this in the rules somewhere" one. 

At the expense of stating the obvious, it's an art rather than a science.  You obviously don't want to counter or excise everything the PCs do -- there are a whole range of creative expletives for DMs that behave that way -- and there are only a short list of abilities that are, imho, really worthy of excision. 

Offline Captnq

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2012, 11:54:05 PM »
P.S.:  as a DM, I tend to create encounters in a vacuum.  That is, I don't really take into account what the PCs can do, and trust that they can manage whatever (semi-balanced) thing I throw at them.  This doesn't always work out.  It's only if they become famous or have recurring villains that the villains try to specifically adapt to their tactics, and even then it's not something I do often.  That's part of my style, and part of my restraint as a DM.  Others, I am sure, differ in this regard.

Uh, nope. That's basically how I do it. The world exists without the players. The encounter shouldn't have any reason to be ready for the players unless the player do something to make the target aware of them.

He knows, Halinn, that's why it was laid so thick.  :P
It was a self-aware use of it, to the point of humour. You needn't state the obvious, as it wasn't meant to be an argument. The "I have no proof of this" should have clued you in, if the "shave head and masturbate in public" bit didn't.

True, but it does have an underlining point. That is opinions are based on experience. I stuck out that GURPS game for 4 sessions. I now have a knee jerk reaction to the game. One player abuses teleport, suddenly you hate everyone who uses the power. It's basic human nature. One simply cannot turn off ones emotions. So it begs the question, when you can't handle your players, is it because of what they are doing, or your experience with what they are doing?
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2012, 02:42:59 AM »

heh, that reminds me, the last time i managed that was when the party was mostly about 17th level. (the potential encounter had barely started opening the door when they started running.... okay it was a really big door, something like 10 stories tall. and when they saw what was coming through the door, boy did they scramble!)
what was coming through the door?
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2012, 03:08:36 AM »
Quote from: Unbeliever

Also, it's worth noting that the Witcher and SOIF/GoT are pretty specific genres, and ones not perfectly correlated with D&D.  Although the Witcher also has a fair bit of high magic -- in the 2nd game there are tons of sorcerors who can do "stuff" -- it's just that you're not one of them.  My point is that if someone forges into unmodified D&D without any discussion and expects Game of Thrones, a mistake has been made (a point Ninjenko has made already in this thread) -- there's a category error. 

The more general point I was trying to make was that in most fantasy books/games, a character's ability to affect the plot is rather limited. In order to get a strong, lasting effect on the setting, they need to work for it (travel far away, fight powerful foes, perform complex and dagerous rituals etc.) not astral project from their living room between the breakfast and the coffee break.

Quote from: Unbeliever
The benchmarks listed above strike me as fairly bonkers ... just saying.  I can't remember a game I've played at high levels where the party has access to even the majority of those.  The only one I think is essential is party revival/condition removal.  And, we have successful games.  As a DM, a party continually using some of the most annoying effects in the game -- Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, True Seeing -- ones that shut down entire schools of magic and archetypes, would piss me off pretty quickly.

Those benchmarks are easy to reach by mind levels in any high-op party. Comparing them to my current party (level 10 atm, started at level 4): Druid, Cleric, Kineticist Psion, Seer Psion

Continual flight, preferably extraordinary flight: Druid has had flying forms since level 5, cleric has had DMM Persist Lesser Holy Transformation since level 7; psions ride the druid's flying animal companion but the Seer also has Metamorphosis.
Teleportation: Druid has Belt of Wide Earth since level 9
Reliable interplanar travel: Cleric can cast it since level 9
Party revival capability: Druid has had Last Breath and Reincarnate since level 7, Cleric has had Revivify and Raise Dead since level 9
True seeing when you need it, preferably continuously: not yet, but they do have a variety of ways to gain Blindisght, Termorsense and Detect Hostile Intent
Death ward when you need it, preferably continuously: Cleric can cast it when needed.
Freedom of movement when you need it, preferably continuously: Everyone has Anklet of Translocation to get out of sticky situations, also, they regularly make use of Heart of Water and both Psions have Dimension Door (which they can easily manifest in any physically impairing circumstances.
Mind blank when you need it, preferably continuously:  Magic Circle against Evil has to do for now, and Cleric has it always on from his persisted Holy Sword (also has 1 Prestige Paladin level).

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2012, 10:12:14 AM »
Quote from: Unbeliever
The benchmarks listed above strike me as fairly bonkers ... just saying.  I can't remember a game I've played at high levels where the party has access to even the majority of those.  The only one I think is essential is party revival/condition removal.  And, we have successful games.  As a DM, a party continually using some of the most annoying effects in the game -- Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, True Seeing -- ones that shut down entire schools of magic and archetypes, would piss me off pretty quickly.

Those benchmarks are easy to reach by mid levels in any high-op party. Comparing them to my current party (level 10 atm, started at level 4): Druid, Cleric, Kineticist Psion, Seer Psion
Emphasis added, which sort of proves my point.  Having access to all of those would, in a lot of ways, make your party high OP. 

Also, I understood the benchmarks to not be "someone in the party has this" but "everyone in the party should/does have  access this."  If it's the former, then I retract my earlier statement.  It's quite common for some of the party to fly, etc.  A benchmark implies that everyone in the party should be able to do so, at least that's how I read it initially.  Looking at it again, though, that can't be quite right:  obviously not everybody needs to have resurrection capability, just 1 dude with maybe a backup. 

The list you describe is quite different than the one listed.  Dimension Door \= Freedom of Movement.  They have, e.g., different action costs, different tactical effects, and so forth.  For example, Freedom of Movement allows you to engage in melee combat against a grappling-oriented enemy (if that's your thing), Dimension Door does not.  Or, at least, certainly not as easily. 

LordBlades' treatment of the list, which transforms "continuous Freedom of Movement" into "some way to avoid sticky situations/battlefield control" I would endorse completely.  I'd rank that particular one as much more important than Flight, actually, but that's more of a taste thing.  And, the emphasis that a party puts on that kind of a list is often critical in determining how OP the party is. 

That was, however, totally different than the list that was rattled off several posts above, which was the one that I was responding to.  And, on either side of the screen I feel differently about it.  It's one thing to lay down a Web and have the demons teleport around it.  You've affected the battlefield, forced them to waste actions, etc.  With continuous Freedom of Movement, they just casually walk through it like it's not even there.  Likewise, if the Psion happens to have picked Detect Hostile Intent then he gets to trivialize invisible enemies.  Good on him, working as intended, etc.  A party with continuous True Seeing, on the other hand, eliminates illusions as a concept from the universe. 
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 10:14:12 AM by Unbeliever »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2012, 02:47:37 PM »
Uh, nope. That's basically how I do it. The world exists without the players. The encounter shouldn't have any reason to be ready for the players unless the player do something to make the target aware of them.

Same. My players have said before "why would you give us a challenge that we can't handle? I replied with "Why do you expect to be able to handle anything I throw at you?"

One simply cannot turn off ones emotions. So it begs the question, when you can't handle your players, is it because of what they are doing, or your experience with what they are doing?
In the past, I was known to snap and just yell "shut the fuck up", then kind of "reboot" for a moment and go on with the session as if nothing happened. Since then I've developed better coping methods, and your post reminded me that other players could benefit from it.

Accept your emotions, then set them aside. For every decision, acknowledge that your emotions corrupt your decision, and compensate accordingly. You are free to feel whatever you wish. You are equally free to disregard your feelings as illogical and biased.

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2012, 03:22:01 PM »
One simply cannot turn off ones emotions.

that is simply due to a lack of training endemic in most cultures these days. one chooses what to do with an emotion as much as one chooses what to do with a thought. seems that the only way to get trained in emotional intelligence is to either stumble upon it on your own, or to get lucky and find a teacher.


what was coming through the door?

an avatar of the big a, you know, the one from the lower planes.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 03:24:43 PM by nijineko »

Offline Demelain

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2012, 06:46:47 PM »
Accept your emotions, then set them aside. For every decision, acknowledge that your emotions corrupt your decision, and compensate accordingly. You are free to feel whatever you wish. You are equally free to disregard your feelings as illogical and biased.

Are you a Jedi?

Offline nijineko

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2012, 07:20:20 PM »
Accept your emotions, then set them aside. For every decision, acknowledge that your emotions corrupt your decision, and compensate accordingly. You are free to feel whatever you wish. You are equally free to disregard your feelings as illogical and biased.

Are you a Jedi?

emotions are not illogical. they have their own rules and patterns of logic that are different from the more familiar intellectual and mental paths.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: "I can't handle you guys!" "Well, what did you expect?"
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2012, 07:24:46 PM »
Thus it is shown that Nytemare is a Jedi and Nijineko is a Klingon Vulcan. All we need now is a Kwisatz Haderach and we have a walk into a bar joke.  :cool
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 07:43:06 PM by FlaminCows »