Author Topic: Nullblade [base]  (Read 33586 times)

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Nullblade [base]
« on: April 23, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »
Winner of the First Semiannual MinMax Award for Best Standalone Homebrew Base Class!

NULLBLADE

   
"Everything you do, I will undo.  Everything you are, I will counter.  Everything you will, I will end."
-No Face

 Nullblade's gonna take you down, take you down on the wrong side of town.

MAKING A NULLBLADE
A nullblade has an answer for everything his opponents can throw at him.
Abilities: Wis > Con > Int =  Dex > Str > Cha
Races: Humans are most likely to be nullblades, because they take perverse pleasure in nullifying their opponents.
Alignment: Any neutral.
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: As monk.

Class Skills
The Nullblade's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Psicraft (Int), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int

Table: The NullbladeHD: d10


Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Base
Attack
Bonus
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5
+11/+6/+1
+12/+7/+2
+12/+7/+2
+13/+8/+3
+14/+9/+4
+15/+10/+5

Fort
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Ref
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Will
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12
Nullify
Spell
Level
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
3rd
3rd
4th
4th
5th
5th
6th
6th
7th
7th
8th
8th
9th
9th
9th
9th


Special
Least invocations, nullify (spell), voidstrike   
Nullify (tactic), will of the void
Evasion
Null body, terminate (spell)
Mettle
Lesser invocations, nullify (attack)
Touch of the void
Void infusion
Improved voidstrike
Improved null body, nullify (ability)   
Greater invocations, null zone, terminate (essence)   
Become the void
Improved evasion
Enter the void, nullify (distance)
Improved mettle
Greater null body, void invocations
Greater voidstrike
Terminate (life)
Consume the void
Greater null zone


Invocations
1
1
2
2
2
3
3
4
4
4
5
5
6
6
6
7
7
8
8
8

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A nullblade is proficient with simple weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (but not tower shields).

Invocations: A nullblade has a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and other abilities known as null invocations, which allow him to focus the energy of the Void all around him. A nullblade can use any invocation he knows at will.  A nullblade's invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. To avoid provoking such attacks, a nullblade can use an invocation defensively by making a successful Concentration check. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. If a nullblade is hit by an attack while invoking, he is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use the invocation, just as a spellcaster would be. His invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation's description specifically states otherwise.  A nullblade's caster level with his invocations is equal to his class level. He can dismiss any invocation as a standard action, just as a wizard can dismiss a spell.

If an invocation allows a saving throw, its DC is 10 + the equivalent spell level + the nullblade's Wis modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not spells, a nullblade cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat or from feats that let him convert or spend an arcane spell slot to produce some other effect. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (MM 303), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities.

The four grades of null invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and void. A 1st-level nullblade begins with knowledge of one least invocation, gaining access to more invocations and higher grades as he attains levels. At any level when a nullblade learns a new invocation, he can also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same or lower grade. See Null Invocations, below, for a list of available invocations.

Finally, just like warlocks (see Complete Arcane), nullblades can qualify for some prestige classes usually intended for spellcasters. In particular, a nullblade can use invocations to qualify for the Void Disciple prestige class; see Nullblades and Prestige Classes, below.

Nullify (Ex): A nullblade can attempt to counter a variety of different things that an opponent could do to him.  The nullblade can use this ability once per nullblade level for each encounter, to a maximum number of times per encounter equal to his Wisdom modifier.  Using this ability is an immediate action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, which requires making a Nullify check, a d20 roll modified by the nullblade's class level and Wisdom modifier.  This ability may not be used while the nullblade is flatfooted or helpless, and the nullblade must be aware of whatever he is attempting to nullify.

Nullify spell: A nullblade may attempt to nullify a spell of 1st level or lower that he can see being cast, and can identify with a Spellcraft check.  To do so, he rolls a Nullify check, opposed by the spellcaster's Caster Level check (with any modifiers that would prevent a spell from being dispelled or countered).  If he succeeds, the nullblade counters the spell.  At every odd level, the maximum level of spell he may attempt to nullify increases by 1 (to 2nd level at 3rd, 3rd level at 5th, and so on), as shown on the table above.  The nullblade may also use this ability to counter martial maneuvers and psionic powers as well (identified with Martial Lore and Psicraft, and opposed by an Initiator Level or Manifester Level check, respectively), subject to the same limitations as spells.

Nullify tactic: At 2nd level, a nullblade may attempt to nullify combat maneuvers such as grappling, disarming, tripping, etc. that are used against him.  Whenever such a maneuver is performed against him, the nullblade makes a Nullify check opposed by the opponent's attack roll (with whatever modifiers were used for the attack or touch attack that began the combat maneuver).  If the nullblade succeeds, the combat maneuver ends with no effect; if he fails, then the maneuver attempt proceeds as normal.

Nullify attack: Beginning at 6th level, a nullblade can attempt to nullify a melee or ranged attack made against him.  Whenever an opponent makes an attack roll against him, the nullblade can substitute the result of a Nullify check for his Armor Class (including touch AC) against that attack.  He must choose whether or not to do so before he knows either the result of his opponent's roll or the Nullify check.

Nullify ability: Upon reaching 10th level, a nullblade learns to nullify the special abilities of creatures he faces.  Whenever an opponent within 60 feet (that he has identified with the appropriate Knowledge skill) uses an extraordinary, psi-like, supernatural, or spell-like ability, the nullblade may make a Nullify check to prevent that ability from being used; the attempt still counts as a daily use of the ability, if the opponent's ability is limited by uses per encounter or day.  The nullblade's Nullify check is opposed by the opponent's Caster or Manifester Level check (in the case of a supernatural, spell-like, or psi-like ability that has a caster or manifester level), or a d20 roll modified by the opponent's Hit Dice in the case of an ability which does not have a caster or manifester level.

Nullify at a distance: A nullblade of 14th level or higher can protect his allies with nullification.  Whenever an ally within 60 feet is subject to a tactic or attack that a nullblade would be able to nullify (as described in the Nullify Tactic and Nullify Attack abilities above), the nullblade can use his Nullify ability to counter it as if it were used against himself.

Voidstrike (Ex): A nullblade may damage an opponent with a successful melee touch attack, which does 1d4 points of untyped damage per nullblade level as the nullblade cancels portions of the target's body.  This damage is not affected by the nullblade's strength bonus or feats which increase melee weapon damage (such as Power Attack or Weapon Specialization).  This ability is used in place of a normal attack.  Voidstrike can be used against inanimate objects, which receive a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 nullblade level + Wis mod) for half damage (creatures of the Construct or Undead type do not receive a Fortitude save).

Will of the void (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a nullblade begins to tap into the emptiness and nothingness that permeates all things, drawing strength and agility from it when necessary.  He uses his Wisdom modifier in place of his Constitution and Dexterity modifiers for Fortitude and Reflex saves, respectively, if it would be higher.

Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a nullblade can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion cannot be used if the nullblade is wearing heavy armor. A helpless nullblade does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Null body (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a nullblade's body begins to develop an immunity to things which would otherwise have hurt him.  He gains damage reduction 2/–, which doesn't stack with other forms of damage reduction; he also gains a 25% chance to negate critical hits and precision damage.  In addition, the nullblade gains resistance 5 against acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage.

Terminate (Ex): Upon reaching 4th level, a nullblade learns how to end ongoing effects the same way he nullifies actions.  He can spend two uses of his Nullify ability as a standard action to end the effect caused by a spell, power, martial maneuver, spell-like ability, psi-like ability, or supernatural ability with a remaining duration of at least 1 round, and at a distance no greater than 25 feet + 5 feet per two Nullblade levels (rounded down).  He  must succeed on a Nullify check (DC equal to 11 + the Caster, Manifester, or Initator Level of the effect) to terminate the effect.

Beginning at 11th level, the nullblade can attempt to terminate the essence which animates a non-living creature.  To do so, he must  spend three uses of his Nullify ability as a standard action and make a Nullify check opposed by the Fortitude or Will save (whichever is better) of a target creature which has no Constitution score.   The creature must be no further than 5 feet + 5 feet per two Nullblade levels (rounded down).  If the Nullify check succeeds, the creature is immediately reduced to 0 hit points and destroyed. 

Starting at 18th level, the nullblade can spend four uses of his Nullify ability as a standard action to terminate a living creature (i.e., one that has a Constitution score) in the same way; if he succeeds on the Nullify check, the target creature immediately dies.  The creature must be no further than 5 feet + 5 feet per two Nullblade levels (rounded down).

Mettle (Ex): A nullblade of 5th level or higher can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping nullblade does not gain the benefit of this ability.

Touch of the void (Ex): Upon reaching 7th level, a nullblade can make more than one immediate action in a round.  For each immediate action he makes after the first, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + 2 times the total number of immediate actions he's taken in the round) or lose his standard and move actions in the following round.  Once he fails such a Will save, he can take no more immediate actions in the round.  Touch of the void can only be used to perform abilities granted by the Nullblade class; this allows a nullblade to use his Nullify ability more than once a round, up to the maximum number of uses in a given encounter.

Void infusion (Ex): At 8th level, the nullblade can draw upon the Void for strength when necessary.  He no longer automatically fails a saving throw when he rolls a 1, and a natural 1 on an attack roll is no longer considered an automatic miss.

Improved voidstrike (Ex): Whenever a nullblade of 9th level or higher successfully damages a creature more than once with his voidstrike attack in the same round, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 nullblade level + Wisdom mod) for the second and each subsequent attack or take 1d6 Constitution drain as the creature's substance is permanently disrupted.  Because it is disruption of their physical substance, and not a magical effect, this ability even affects creatures who are immune to ability damage due to their type (such as undead and constructs), though creatures with immunity from other sources, such as class features or spells, are not affected.  Creatures which do not have a Constitution score (such as those of the Construct or Undead type) instead take Strength damage.  Creatures with neither a Constitution score or a Strength score (such as incorporeal undead) are not affected by this ability.

Improved null body (Ex): Beginning at 10th level, a nullblade's body becomes even hardier.  His damage reduction increases to 5/–, his energy resistances improve to 10, and he has a 50% chance to negate critical hits and precision damage.  In addition, he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.

Null zone (Ex): At 11th level, a nullblade can suppress all magic around him, overwhelming the Weave with pure Void.  The nullblade can activate this ability once per day as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity; when he does so, all magic and psionics in a 30 foot radius are suppressed as if inside an antimagic field or null psionics field.  This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the nullblade's Wisdom modifier.

Become the void (Ex): Upon reaching 12th level, a nullblade's connection with negative space is complete.  He gains the void subtype (reproduced here for reference).
(click to show/hide)

Improved evasion (Ex): This ability, gained at 13th level, works like evasion, except that while the nullblade still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless nullblade does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Enter the void (Ex): Upon reaching 14th level, a nullblade's connection to anti-essence has increased such that he can use the negative space between atoms to travel quickly to other places, sometimes even other planes.  This ability functions identically to the shadow walk spell as cast by a wizard of the nullblade's class level, except that it is an extraordinary ability and can be used at will.

Improved mettle (Ex): Whenever a nullblade of 15th level or higher fails a Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead suffers the reduced effect. An unconscious or sleeping nullblade does not gain the benefit of this ability.

Greater null body (Ex): Beginning at 16th level, a nullblade is immune to nearly everything which could hurt him.  His damage reduction increases to 10/–, his energy resistances improve to 20, and he is immune to critical hits and precision damage.  In addition, he becomes immune to mind-affecting effects, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain, dazing, blindness, deafness, and the nauseated and sickened conditions.

Greater voidstrike (Ex): Whenever a nullblade of 17th level or higher confirms a critical hit against a creature with a voidstrike, the creature gains 1d6 negative levels as its essence is severely disrupted.  This ability is not an energy drain effect, and as such can even be used on creatures normally immune to energy drain (such as constructs or undead).  There is no saving throw to avoid gaining the negative levels, but 24 hours after gaining them, the subject must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 nullblade level + Wisdom mod) for each negative level. If the save succeeds, that negative level is removed. If it fails, the negative level also goes away, but one of the subject’s Hit Dice (or character levels, as appropriate) is permanently drained.

Consume the void (Ex): At 19th level, a nullblade learns to draw sustenance directly from the Void, freeing him from the needs of his physical body.  He no longer needs to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep, and gains fast healing 5; in addition, true seeing no longer reveals the nullblade when he wishes to remain hidden.

Greater null zone (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, whenever a nullblade uses his Null Zone ability, he may choose to make the duration instantaneous, turning the area permanently into a dead magic zone (psionics are also suppressed in such an area).

PLAYING A NULLBLADE
 Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
 Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat.
 Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power.
 Resources: What resources might a member of this PrC be able to draw on..

NULLBLADE IN THE WORLD
"A quote of somebody else talking about your class!"
-name of quote originator
A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world.
 Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class.
 Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
 Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards.

NPC Reaction
 This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class.

NULLBLADE IN THE GAME
 This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically.
 Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting.
 Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class.


EPIC NULLBLADE

Hit Die: dx
Skills Points at Each  Level : x + int
Class Ability
Class Ability.
Bonus Feats: The Epic Class Name gains a Bonus Feat every x levels higher than 20th
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 09:33:41 AM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base] (WIP)
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 12:07:26 PM »
Nullblades and Prestige Classes
(click to show/hide)

Nullblade Invocations
(click to show/hide)

Nullblade Feats
(click to show/hide)

Nullcraft Template
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:31:11 PM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 05:44:03 PM »
OK, done.  Hit me!
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Quillwraith

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 867
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 06:07:25 PM »
Neat, though potentially annoying.

With Nullify attack, can you roll the nullify check before deciding whether to substitute it for your AC?

Better threat range increases than anywhere else I know of. By 20th level, you can get 9-20(x6) without much trouble, so I imagine they'll all be using wounding something burst weapons.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 06:20:38 PM »
Neat, though potentially annoying.

With Nullify attack, can you roll the nullify check before deciding whether to substitute it for your AC?

Better threat range increases than anywhere else I know of. By 20th level, you can get 9-20(x6) without much trouble, so I imagine they'll all be using wounding something burst weapons.

Annoying for whom?  Hopefully not the Nullblade... too much bookkeeping? 

No, I'll specify -- you have to decide before you see any result.

Yes, excellent crit boosting.  Too much?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2012, 06:27:41 PM »
It's pretty cool. I don't really care what happens at level 20. So I'm not going to bother commenting on that.

I don't really see flavor-wise why they are tied to a weapon at all, nor why they get a magic one for free.

I think you should remove that and add in Evasion and Mettle (and the Improved versions), as it fits the class much better. I think you should also grant them a scaling chance to just flat avoid things, like incorporeal beings get. And maybe give them Slippery Mind at some point, too.

And give them Camoflage and Hide in Plain Sight at some points during their progression.

I think I'd drop the critical enhancement stuff, too, but I realize that's changing quite a bit.

I very much like the Void Disciple PrC, and played one in an awesome game where the DM houseruled most of their abilities to be Ex and not subject to blockage by Mind Blank... So I definitely like where you're going with this, and might play/NPC one of these once it is finalized.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 06:31:50 PM by phaedrusxy »
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline Quillwraith

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 867
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 06:57:28 PM »
Annoying for whom?  Hopefully not the Nullblade...
Anyone trying to fight them.

I don't really see flavor-wise why they are tied to a weapon at all, nor why they get a magic one for free.

I think you should remove that and add in Evasion and Mettle (and the Improved versions), as it fits the class much better.
Agree.

Miss chance might be a bit much.

You could try a special ability list to pick from, like the rogue, with mettle, evasion, miss chance, critical enhancement stuff, maybe some other uses for Nullify.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 07:05:10 PM »
It's pretty cool. I don't really care what happens at level 20. So I'm not going to bother commenting on that.

Lol.

Quote
I don't really see flavor-wise why they are tied to a weapon at all, nor why they get a magic one for free.

I didn't write in any of that flavor, maybe I should have.  It's about using an awesome blade to slice through the magic, you know?  And "nullblade" has a nice ring to it.  And I wanted to give them some offense, so they weren't entirely about "F you and whatever it is you're trying to do"... But I may drop that stuff based on your suggestions below.

Quote
I think you should remove that and add in Evasion and Mettle (and the Improved versions), as it fits the class much better. I think you should also grant them a scaling chance to just flat avoid things, like incorporeal beings get. And maybe give them Slippery Mind at some point, too.

And give them Camoflage and Hide in Plain Sight at some points during their progression.

OK, this all seems workable.

Quote
I think I'd drop the critical enhancement stuff, too, but I realize that's changing quite a bit.

Well, basically this would be about shutting down absolutely everything, with the changes above, and removing the crit stuff would be in line with that.  They really wouldn't have any offense, though...

Quote
I very much like the Void Disciple PrC, and played one in an awesome game where the DM houseruled most of their abilities to be Ex and not subject to blockage by Mind Blank... So I definitely like where you're going with this, and might play/NPC one of these once it is finalized.

 :cheers

Annoying for whom?  Hopefully not the Nullblade...
Anyone trying to fight them.

I don't really see flavor-wise why they are tied to a weapon at all, nor why they get a magic one for free.

I think you should remove that and add in Evasion and Mettle (and the Improved versions), as it fits the class much better.
Agree.

Miss chance might be a bit much.

You could try a special ability list to pick from, like the rogue, with mettle, evasion, miss chance, critical enhancement stuff, maybe some other uses for Nullify.


Lol!  Nice.

I don't think they really need the miss chance, honestly... they're already shutting down or ignoring almost everything.


Here's the problem: they don't have any BFC, they don't have offense.  They're primarily a debuffer (in the most literal sense of the word, removing buffs) and counterspeller.  They don't have any party boosters.  They have defenses out the wazoo, but then enemies will just attack the other party members, because they don't have any way to force people to attack them..  Sooooo... what else?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 07:26:42 PM »
I would have trouble fitting this class into one of my campaigns, simply because it makes every other fighting class worthless by comparison. Every fighter would be one, and it would be really weird if melee battle was done only between members of a class as thematically unique as the Nullblade.

What tier would you call this? Tier 3?

Offline Quillwraith

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 867
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2012, 07:30:12 PM »
Here's the problem: they don't have any BFC, they don't have offense.  They're primarily a debuffer (in the most literal sense of the word, removing buffs) and counterspeller.  They don't have any party boosters.  They have defenses out the wazoo, but then enemies will just attack the other party members, because they don't have any way to force people to attack them..  Sooooo... what else?
A direct or ability damage effect based on vanishing random parts of an enemy?
Debuffs like Revoke Sight, Revoke Proficiency?
Buffs along the lines of Cancel Appearance(makes someone invisible), Cancel Vulnerability(grants a temporary immunity) ?

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 07:41:28 PM »
I would have trouble fitting this class into one of my campaigns, simply because it makes every other fighting class worthless by comparison. Every fighter would be one, and it would be really weird if melee battle was done only between members of a class as thematically unique as the Nullblade.

What tier would you call this? Tier 3?

Would that be somewhat remedied if I took out the "blade"-ness?  So that it's less of a fighting class?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline TheGeometer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 07:50:45 PM »
I would have trouble fitting this class into one of my campaigns, simply because it makes every other fighting class worthless by comparison. Every fighter would be one, and it would be really weird if melee battle was done only between members of a class as thematically unique as the Nullblade.

What tier would you call this? Tier 3?

Would that be somewhat remedied if I took out the "blade"-ness?  So that it's less of a fighting class?

I don't think anything less than lowering the BAB to "Rogue" will convince anyone that this isn't just a better fighter. After that point, it won't matter if you keep the "blade" part of the class - the BAB alone will make it stand out as a specialty class like Monk. But then you've dropped the class at least a tier.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 07:52:50 PM by TheGeometer »

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2012, 07:58:51 PM »
It would also make the class significantly less effective, since the Nullify ability is based off of BAB and there's no way to boost it other than boosting Wisdom.

EDIT: I hollowed out the class features, and added a new offensive attack.  I'll work more on a new version tomorrow.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2012, 10:00:23 PM »
I would have trouble fitting this class into one of my campaigns, simply because it makes every other fighting class worthless by comparison. Every fighter would be one, and it would be really weird if melee battle was done only between members of a class as thematically unique as the Nullblade.

What tier would you call this? Tier 3?

Would that be somewhat remedied if I took out the "blade"-ness?  So that it's less of a fighting class?

I don't think anything less than lowering the BAB to "Rogue" will convince anyone that this isn't just a better fighter. After that point, it won't matter if you keep the "blade" part of the class - the BAB alone will make it stand out as a specialty class like Monk. But then you've dropped the class at least a tier.
I think pretty much all the ToB classes are at least as powerful as the original version of this. I don't have a problem with the power level at all. I just didn't think that the things fit together thematically very well.

Duskblade has blade in the name, and yet isn't married to a specific weapon. So does Shadowblade, Bladesinger, etc.

As far as offense, what does the barbarian have? It's often said to be one of the most offensively powerful martial classes, yet all it gets towards that end are stat boosts and full BAB (barring Lion Totem ACF for pounce). Just having full BAB and Wisdom to attack and damage puts this class on par with the barbarian, I think. Then throwing in the crit stuff, and a free action save or die later in the game, this guy definitely pulls ahead IMO. But I still think the original is tier 3 at best.

I think it is better to focus on cool, thematic, and useful things that this guy can do. For example, what about Blink and Improved Blink at some point, renamed There/Not There? Or See Invis/True Seeing, called See the Unseen, and fluffed as him "seeing the parts of things that aren't there" (like the imaginary parts of complex numbers :p ).

Just throwing out ideas. Like I said, I love the theme, and am also a big fan of strong defenses. Anybody can stab someone to death in D&D. If I wanted to do that well, I'd play a barbarian. :D

Edit: Oh, why is the level of effects he can nullify limited to what's level appropriate minus 1? He already has to make a "dispel" check, and it is limited in how frequently he can do it. Just let him use it on everything, or at least things up to what's "level appropriate" (i.e. at 3rd level he should be able to nullify 2nd level spells, etc). Also, make it a move action to start out, then upgrade it to a swift action, and then eventually to an immediate, and maybe ultimately a free action (still not sure on this, as 3 free action save or dies per encounter is a bit much, even at 18th level). Barring the offensive uses, Nullify is much like the Tome fighter's ability mechanically, although thematically it is much different. So I don't think I'd ever make it truly a free action. At most, make it immediate and give the guy the ability to make an extra immediate action per round or something.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 10:09:26 PM by phaedrusxy »
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline DonQuixote

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2946
  • What is sickness to the body of a knight errant?
    • View Profile
    • The Spellshaping Codices (Homebrew Board)
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 01:31:32 AM »
At first glance, I'd say that there's nothing that this class needs.

*Waits for laughter to die down.*

Anyway, one random idea would be to give the class a literal nullblade--a weapon formed of pure nothingness that can be conjured at any time.  Hell, I bet you could even use the soulknife scaling setup for it, since the nullblade's class abilities would more than compensate for the problems inherent in mind blade.

It might also be interesting to toy with the entropomancer's Shard of Entropy idea.  Not necessarily a direct lift, but it could be an interesting source of nothing.

I'm not sure how I feel about giving it all good saves as its base.  Maybe I'm being curmudgeonly, but it makes a lot more sense to me to give it poor Fortitude and Reflex saves, a good Will save, and some analogue to Divine Grace.  It is, after all, the sheer null-ness of your personality that makes you difficult to affect.

Finally, a minor nitpick on Terminate's higher-level effect: Elementals are actually living creatures.  Not non-living.  They're formed of the elements, true, but they are very much alive.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline TravelLog

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
  • Gunslinger, Descendent of Eld
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 02:17:53 AM »
For reference purposes, would you also post the original version? I'd like to see what you excised. Perhaps things could be reworked and re-added.
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.
--Miguel de Cervantes

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2012, 08:07:09 AM »
For reference purposes, would you also post the original version? I'd like to see what you excised. Perhaps things could be reworked and re-added.

Sorry... I don't have it saved anywhere else.  Basically they got an Ancestral Relic for free, and then they got Wis to damage & attack, wis/2 to crit threat range, and wis/3 to crit multiplier.

@thegeometer: one thing I should make clear -- I don't homebrew based on the power level of the fighter.  Fighter sucks; my stuff is generally tier 3 and up (see Magipunk for a whole bunch of example classes).  But I am interested to see how this matches up with other, more effective classes.

I think pretty much all the ToB classes are at least as powerful as the original version of this. I don't have a problem with the power level at all. I just didn't think that the things fit together thematically very well.

Duskblade has blade in the name, and yet isn't married to a specific weapon. So does Shadowblade, Bladesinger, etc.

As far as offense, what does the barbarian have? It's often said to be one of the most offensively powerful martial classes, yet all it gets towards that end are stat boosts and full BAB (barring Lion Totem ACF for pounce). Just having full BAB and Wisdom to attack and damage puts this class on par with the barbarian, I think. Then throwing in the crit stuff, and a free action save or die later in the game, this guy definitely pulls ahead IMO. But I still think the original is tier 3 at best.

I think it is better to focus on cool, thematic, and useful things that this guy can do. For example, what about Blink and Improved Blink at some point, renamed There/Not There? Or See Invis/True Seeing, called See the Unseen, and fluffed as him "seeing the parts of things that aren't there" (like the imaginary parts of complex numbers :p ).

Just throwing out ideas. Like I said, I love the theme, and am also a big fan of strong defenses. Anybody can stab someone to death in D&D. If I wanted to do that well, I'd play a barbarian. :D

Edit: Oh, why is the level of effects he can nullify limited to what's level appropriate minus 1? He already has to make a "dispel" check, and it is limited in how frequently he can do it. Just let him use it on everything, or at least things up to what's "level appropriate" (i.e. at 3rd level he should be able to nullify 2nd level spells, etc). Also, make it a move action to start out, then upgrade it to a swift action, and then eventually to an immediate, and maybe ultimately a free action (still not sure on this, as 3 free action save or dies per encounter is a bit much, even at 18th level). Barring the offensive uses, Nullify is much like the Tome fighter's ability mechanically, although thematically it is much different. So I don't think I'd ever make it truly a free action. At most, make it immediate and give the guy the ability to make an extra immediate action per round or something.

Phae, I'm agreeing with you more and more.  I think I'm going to tie this more explicitly to the "void" concept from Void subtype and Void disciple (and maybe entropomancer, great suggestion DonQ).  We'll see how it turns out when I finish reworking.

As for the level delay, it was to make up for the fact that they could nullify as a free action multiple times per round.  That will probably change as I rework.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline RobbyPants

  • Female rat ninja
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8172
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2012, 08:24:44 AM »
Can you add any extra damage to Voidstrike? It doesn't say you add your Str modifier, so I'm assuming you don't, but can you Power Attack with it?
My creations

Please direct moderation-related PMs to Forum Staff.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2012, 08:31:15 AM »
My plan was no.  I'll make that more explicit.  I don't want this to become the be-all end-all for, say, charging builds.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: Nullblade [base]
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2012, 11:40:18 AM »
OK, I made major revisions.

~Moved a couple abilities around because uneven spacing bothers me, and also the Void subtype thing is more interesting if gained at a lower level.
~Added evasion, mettle, and the improved versions of both.
~Made crappy Fort & Ref saves, but gave Will of the Void which lets you use Wisdom for all 3 saves, and Void Infusion which means no more autofail or critical fumble on natural 1s.
~Made Nullify an immediate action (can't be move or swift, Phae, or it just doesn't work) and then a free action at level 14; Touch of the Void grants more immediate actions at level 7 but you risk losing all your next round's actions.
~Improved and Greater Voidstrike now exist.
~Terminate is now a standard action.  No more multi-SoD's in a single round without action-economy shenanigans.

Now what do I give out at level 19 & 20?

What do you think about allowing this class to take Void Disciple, and have the spell progression advance Nullify?  If we like that, I'll add a corollary at the end.

EDIT: And fixed the spell level progression for Nullify.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 11:42:20 AM by sirpercival »
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.