Optimization Challenge: Dispater and the Iron Siege

[TravelLog]

Weird, I thought I posted this question a few days ago.

But has anyone ever tried a skillful approach? I mean with around 200+ in bluff you should be able to lie your way through hell, and with 149+ in diplomacy everything you meet will be your fanatic follower. And if you have +119 in survival, you can find Dispaters throneroom by triangulation.

I mean it's not sure fire, but getting to those stats, need not take more than the item familiar feat and some skill points, which with the given stats is hardly a cost at all.

I'm sorry, but no matter how persuasive you are, you aren't going to find out where exactly it is within the Iron Tower. Dispater is probably the most paranoid person in the Planes (certainly in the Nine Hells), and other than his highest ranking courtiers like Merorem, Glasya, or Titivilus, every other devil, Duke, and Archdevil would have zero information. Hell, Merorem, Glasya, and Titivilus probably don't even know for sure. Paranoid as Dispater is, maybe he's made them think they know where it is, but kept the truth of its location hidden. And even if they did know for sure, it's not like you'll be able to get the answer from any of them, not with the knowledge that the second they told you, Dispater would have them obliterated. Talk about a negative circumstance bonus.

That said, I'm sure you could ask Asmodeus. Good luck getting an answer that doesn't result in eternal torment though.

[Amechra]

How would I be an Initiate of Mystra?

Where in the rules does it say that a deity needs to know that they are a deity? (Yes, I am arguing from the point of view that, if I'm going to be going with Initiate of Mystra, I totally will be playing as a Greater Deity who worships Mystra).

Or, you know, deific hero worship

[Mixster]

Weird, I thought I posted this question a few days ago.

But has anyone ever tried a skillful approach? I mean with around 200+ in bluff you should be able to lie your way through hell, and with 149+ in diplomacy everything you meet will be your fanatic follower. And if you have +119 in survival, you can find Dispaters throneroom by triangulation.

I mean it's not sure fire, but getting to those stats, need not take more than the item familiar feat and some skill points, which with the given stats is hardly a cost at all.

I'm sorry, but no matter how persuasive you are, you aren't going to find out where exactly it is within the Iron Tower. Dispater is probably the most paranoid person in the Planes (certainly in the Nine Hells), and other than his highest ranking courtiers like Merorem, Glasya, or Titivilus, every other devil, Duke, and Archdevil would have zero information. Hell, Merorem, Glasya, and Titivilus probably don't even know for sure. Paranoid as Dispater is, maybe he's made them think they know where it is, but kept the truth of its location hidden. And even if they did know for sure, it's not like you'll be able to get the answer from any of them, not with the knowledge that the second they told you, Dispater would have them obliterated. Talk about a negative circumstance bonus.

That said, I'm sure you could ask Asmodeus. Good luck getting an answer that doesn't result in eternal torment though.

Remember that if I get my diplomacy check to hit the 160s consistently (so a +159 to the roll is needed) (which should be possible with 70HD and a DR of 18). I can talk any of his associates, or even Asmodeus into being my fanatic follower in a full-round action. And I could get those as immediate actions with celerity, meaning I would just have to have a way of getting loads of immediates to make anything that I want my fanatic follower who would impale himself on a spear if it helped my cause.
As such, I think that they would tell me all they know about the throne room as well if they have any doubt to whether it is the true throne room.

Even so, I don't need their help to find the throne room. I just need them to help me not being found by Dispater (which I should off course ensure with a bunch of spells). I can find it with Survival, a DC 120 survival check finds me the direction of a place I've heard the description of, well I should be able to glean from CoP that dispater sits on an Iron throne in an Iron Throne room, and thus be able to find the direction of that with a survival check. So I'll just find the direction, teleport in any direction that is not that direction, find it again, and draw meself a map (with a sufficient Profession (cartographer) and survival skill off course). Draw in the directions, and teleport to myself where they cross.
Since his fortress is truly infinite, they will only cross in one place.
Even if this will not yield a result, I could just make a almost impossible Bardic knowledge check to find it out, which means I'd just have to stick some levels in bard and get an insane Int score (such as abusing tattoed monk and consumptive field).

Also since Asmodeus knows where Dispaters throne room is, if I go to his planar home first (which is easier), and mind rape him I can get the information I need and then teleport directly to the throne room?

Heck, I could even just go there and tell all his minions to obey me, in their dreams (scroll down, the rules for lucid dreaming are there).

[Tshern]

Remember that if I get my diplomacy check to hit the 160s consistently (so a +159 to the roll is needed) (which should be possible with 70HD and a DR of 18).

Unless TravelLog has changed that ruling or will change, you cannot do that. It was one of the first rulings, since the Diplomacy rules are so silly. Even Dispater has a flat +150 bonus to Diplomacy.

I can talk any of his associates, or even Asmodeus into being my fanatic follower in a full-round action.

Immune to mind-affecting abilities.

Even so, I don't need their help to find the throne room. I just need them to help me not being found by Dispater (which I should off course ensure with a bunch of spells). I can find it with Survival, a DC 120 survival check finds me the direction of a place I've heard the description of, well I should be able to glean from CoP that dispater sits on an Iron throne in an Iron Throne room, and thus be able to find the direction of that with a survival check.

I replied to this in the other thread, but let's do it again. You do not have a description of the place. There is no reason why anyone but Dispater and Asmodeus would.

Also since Asmodeus knows where Dispaters throne room is, if I go to his planar home first (which is easier), and mind rape him I can get the information I need and then teleport directly to the throne room?

Easier? No-one can even peer into Nessus. In the Dicefreaks world the place is immune to remote viewing and no-one knows anything about the place. Well, some know that Malsheem is there. Plus, Asmodeus has so many ways of beating the crap out of all the challengers that have been displayed so far. Such as summoning every single Lord of the Nine and the Dark Host of the Pit to kick some butt.

Heck, I could even just go there and tell all his minions to obey me, in their dreams (scroll down, the rules for lucid dreaming are there).

Asmodeus' Overlord SDA means every single devil obeys him unquestioningly. He can summon them from anywhere and they will travel to do his bidding as soon as possible.

[DrHorrible]

Damn, I'd love to try just to get a couple of laughs out of it but making a 70HD character would be a pain...

Maybe I'll try with some kind of hyper advanced dragon... But then I'd have to read up the epic sorcerer stuff...

Ah, where can I find divine ranks?

[Tshern]

Chapter nine of The Gates of Hell. There's a link in the first post. Do note though, that if you make a dragon deity, your hit dice limit will be booted from 100 to 70. Without divine ranks this can quickly become a fruitless enterprise.

TravelLog: I wrote down some notes yesterday, about a future challenger for this. I may, may, have an idea.

[DrHorrible]

Chapter nine of The Gates of Hell. There's a link in the first post. Do note though, that if you make a dragon deity, your hit dice limit will be booted from 100 to 70. Without divine ranks this can quickly become a fruitless enterprise.

TravelLog: I wrote down some notes yesterday, about a future challenger for this. I may, may, have an idea.

So basically you're saying that a 70HD Dragon with divine ranks would be much better than a 100HD Dragon, right?

[Tshern]

Chapter nine of The Gates of Hell. There's a link in the first post. Do note though, that if you make a dragon deity, your hit dice limit will be booted from 100 to 70. Without divine ranks this can quickly become a fruitless enterprise.

So basically you're saying that a 70HD Dragon with divine ranks would be much better than a 100HD Dragon, right?

In my mind, yes, but you and the others may disagree.

[Mixster]

Remember that if I get my diplomacy check to hit the 160s consistently (so a +159 to the roll is needed) (which should be possible with 70HD and a DR of 18).

Unless TravelLog has changed that ruling or will change, you cannot do that. It was one of the first rulings, since the Diplomacy rules are so silly. Even Dispater has a flat +150 bonus to Diplomacy.

Ok so the skills have been changed, then I don't think a skill approach would work. Especially since the finding the throne room with survival seems to be fiated out.

[Tshern]

Remember that if I get my diplomacy check to hit the 160s consistently (so a +159 to the roll is needed) (which should be possible with 70HD and a DR of 18).

Unless TravelLog has changed that ruling or will change, you cannot do that. It was one of the first rulings, since the Diplomacy rules are so silly. Even Dispater has a flat +150 bonus to Diplomacy.

Ok so the skills have been changed, then I don't think a skill approach would work. Especially since the finding the throne room with survival seems to be fiated out.

Far as I know, Diplomacy is the only skill that has been changed. Use of survival is not, or at least not by me, fiated out, you stated yourself that you need a description. Find a valid way of getting a description and you might be on to something. TravelLog is of course free to give another reasoning.

[DrHorrible]

Chapter nine of The Gates of Hell. There's a link in the first post. Do note though, that if you make a dragon deity, your hit dice limit will be booted from 100 to 70. Without divine ranks this can quickly become a fruitless enterprise.

So basically you're saying that a 70HD Dragon with divine ranks would be much better than a 100HD Dragon, right?

In my mind, yes, but you and the others may disagree.

After reading all the sick abilities deities get, I have no doubt about it.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[TravelLog]

TravelLog: I wrote down some notes yesterday, about a future challenger for this. I may, may, have an idea.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Re: Skills approach
This is perhaps my fault for being unclear. Diplomacy is flat out. Diplomacy rules are incredibly broken and strain my credulity every time I read them.

Other skills, like Survival, are fine. As I said earlier though, good luck getting a description. If you're clever enough to get one though, and can convince me it's a workable method, then you're getting somewhere.

[Mixster]

TravelLog: I wrote down some notes yesterday, about a future challenger for this. I may, may, have an idea.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Re: Skills approach
This is perhaps my fault for being unclear. Diplomacy is flat out. Diplomacy rules are incredibly broken and strain my credulity every time I read them.

Other skills, like Survival, are fine. As I said earlier though, good luck getting a description. If you're clever enough to get one though, and can convince me it's a workable method, then you're getting somewhere.

How about Lucid Dreaming (manual of the planes) and Truespeak (ToM) do they work as written?

Would it be possible to create epic versions of already the truespeak spells?

EDIT: by the way, were epic spells allowed? I mean with the summon seed, you could pretty reliably (19/20) summon Dispater, and then kill him.

[Tshern]

He must be killed on Dis. If you want to slaughter him all over the cosmos before, sure, but that won't complete the challenge.

[TravelLog]

How about Lucid Dreaming (manual of the planes) and Truespeak (ToM) do they work as written?

Would it be possible to create epic versions of already the truespeak spells?

EDIT: by the way, were epic spells allowed? I mean with the summon seed, you could pretty reliably (19/20) summon Dispater, and then kill him.

Truespeak is fine. I have to look into Lucid Dreaming though. It's Thanksgiving here, so give me a day or two and I'll get back to you.

And as Tshern said, you need to defeat him in Dis/The Iron Tower for this challenge.

[Shadowmind]

Is epic Binder and the Epic vestiges allowed?

Can you IRON HEART SURGE away the catapsi effect of the Tower?

What is the WBL for a 70th level character?( the MiC Chart only goes to 30th)

Does being in the center of a Sphere of Annihilation block line of effect and/or line of sight?

Is legacy champion and (custom)legacy weapons allowed?

Could Rudimentary Intelligence from Dragon Magazine 327 be allowed?

Does the Sardorian Golem, who has Magic Immunity which reads:
Immunity to Magic (Ex): Sardorian golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects and abilities.
Keep that version? It is 3.5 when the golem was made. It was the weaker standard-golem immunity to psionic effects.

[OutlawPhilosopher]

"...you have zero chance of learning Dispater's true name"
Is this statement, and other stuff like it, intended to be taken literally?

With the stuff available so far, it is relatively easy to design a routine which will pronounce every finite sequence of syllables in, like, one round (via, say, NI readied actions). I've also, in the other thread, suggested a time-travel based method which can be modified to learn literally any information. We have a lot of wishes and stuff, too...

So, basically, I'm wondering if it's just DM fiat that certain approaches cannot be made to work? If so, it might be nice to know in advance which ones.

(also, what about the Ice-Assassin spell? I assume it's banned?)

[OutlawPhilosopher]

Just in case Ice Assassin is legal, here's a dumb abuse to make sure it's no longer legal:

Innate Spell (Ice Assassin) <or any other way of ignoring the material component>
Time Regression (Yes, all my ideas involve time travel)

Routine:
Cast Ice Assassin of Dispater
Ice Assassin retains all Dispater's memories, including where he was a round ago etc
Manifest time regression for whatever
Create a couple more Dispaters or Asmodeuses or whatever
Go to where Dispater is and kill him.


Edit: or, just a bunch of Ice Assassins of Asmodeus to use his overlord SDA, since I guess they would have that, too.

[Tshern]

Were I still running the game, I would say all Ice Assassin attempts would be inconvenienced by Dispater's Ice Assassin of the Circle of Three.

[Mixster]

If I use the Epic Seed transform (which gives you their memories) to turn myself into Dispater (can be done with a DC152 Spellcraft epic spell, before mitigating factors)
1. Would the Iron tower treat me as dispater (as per RAW)?
2. Would I be able to teleport directly to his throne-room, (I'd guess that Dispater remembers pretty well what it looks like)?
3. Oddball note, would killing myself in the iron tower be classified as killing Dispater?

---
On secondary notes:
Is leadership and it's derivatives allowed?
What would Iron Heart Surge do to the tower?

He must be killed on Dis. If you want to slaughter him all over the cosmos before, sure, but that won't complete the challenge.

But I would be able to summon him, and mind rape him with a bunch of stuff so I can find out where his throne room is? Then delete his memory of it and send him back?