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Creative Corner => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Topic started by: Maat Mons on October 29, 2017, 11:59:43 PM

Title: 3 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 29, 2017, 11:59:43 PM
Infiltrator
"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
Unknown

Making an Infiltrator
Abilities: The sneak attack ability tends to encourage two-weapon fighting.  Any infiltrators wishing to pursue that line of feats will need a good dexterity score.  Charisma aids those invocations that force a saving throw. 
Races: Most infiltrators are human, but gnomes and halflings also make good infiltrators. 
Alignment: Infiltrators are almost never lawful. 
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: As rogue. 

Hit Die: d6
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
10022TrapfindingLeast1
21033EvasionLeast2
32133Sneak attack +1d6Least2
43144Uncanny dodgeLeast3
53144Least3
64255Sneak attack +2d6Lesser4
75255Poison useLesser4
86266Improved uncanny dodgeLesser5
96366Sneak attack +3d6Lesser5
107377Eldritch treachery (spell resistance)Lesser6
118377Improved evasionGreater7
129488Sneak attack +4d6Greater7
139488Poison immunityGreater8
1410499Hide in plain sightGreater8
1511599Eldritch alacrity, sneak attack +5d6Greater9
161251010Dark10
171251010Dark10
181361111Sneak attack +6d6Dark11
191461111Dark11
201561212Eldritch treachery (saves)Dark12
Class Skills (6 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, kukri, rapier, sap, scimitar, shortbow, and short sword.
You are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Your infiltrator invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from light armor.  You suffer the normal spell failure chance for medium or heavy armor, or shields, however.

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the infiltrator class list. 

Trapfinding (Ex):
You can use the Search skill to locate traps with a DC higher than 20.  You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps.  This functions identically to the rogue class feature. 

Evasion (Ex):
Beginning at 2nd level, if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage.  Evasion can be used only if you are wearing light armor or no armor.  You do not gain the benefit of evasion while helpless. 

Sneak Attack (Ex):
You gain sneak attack (as the rogue ability) equal to +1d6 per 3 class levels. 

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
Starting at 4th level, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If you already have uncanny dodge from a different class you automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Poison Use (Ex):
You do not risk accidentally poisoning yourself when you apply poison to a weapon. 

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
You gain improved uncanny dodge, as the rogue ability. 

Eldritch Treachery (Ex):
Your invocations are more effective against targets who are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks, and enemies that you flank.  Beginning at 10th level, your invocations ignore any spell resistnace (or spell immunity) possessed by such creatures.  Beginning at 20th level, these creatures must roll twice and take the worse result on any saving throws allowed by your invocations. 

Eldritch Alacrity:
You gain an extra swift (or immediate) action each round.  This action can only be used to cast an invocation. 

Eldritch Treachery:
Beginning at 10th level, you can ignore the spell resistance (or spell immunity) of any enemy who is denied his dexterity bonus against your attacks.  Beginning at 20th level, enemies who are denied their dexterity bonus against your attacks also have more difficulty when making saving throws against your invocations.  They must roll twice, and take the worse result. 

Improved Evasion (Ex):
Beginning at 11th level, when using the evasion ability, you take only half damage even on a failed save. 

Poison Immunity (Ex):
At 13th level, you gain immunity to poison. 

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
Beginning at 14th level, you can use the Hide skill even while being observed.  As long as you are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, you can hide yourself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.  You cannot, however, hide in your own shadow. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 29, 2017, 11:59:50 PM
Sawbones
quote

Making a Sawbones
Abilities:
Races:
Alignment: Evil sawbones are somewhat uncommon, but by no means unheard of. 
Starting Gold: 5d4x10 (125 gp)
Starting Age: As cleric. 

Hit Die: d8
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
10202Weapon focusLeast1
21303Immunity to diseaseLeast2
32313Healing touchLeast2
43414Least3
53414Least3
64525Weapon specializationLesser4
75525Lesser4
86626Lesser restorationLesser5
96636Lesser5
107737PanaceaLesser6
118737Greater weapon focusGreater7
129848Break enchantmentGreater7
139848Greater8
1410949RestorationGreater8
1511959Greater9
161210510Greater weapon specializationDark10
171210510Dark10
181311611Dark11
191411611Dark11
201512612Greater restorationDark12
Class Skills (4 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple weapons, plus one martial weapon of your choice. 
You are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). 
Your infiltrator invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from light or medium armor, or for shields (except tower shields).  You suffer the normal spell failure chance for heavy armor, or tower shields, however. 

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the sawbones class list. 

Weapon Focus:
You gain weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites. 

Immunity to Disease (Ex):
At 2nd level, you gain immunity to diseases of all types, including supernatural diseases. 

Healing Touch (Su):
Beginning at 3rd level, you can touch a creature and heal it of an amount of damage equal to 1d8 per 3 sawbones levels.  As a special restriction, healing from this ability cannot bring a creature's hit points above half its maximum.  This ability is usable at will. 

Weapon Specialization:
At 6th level, you gain weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Lesser Restoration (Sp):
At 8th level, you gain lesser restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will. 

Panacea (Sp):
At 10th level, you gain greater panacea as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  Unlike a normal casting of panacea, however, this does not restore any hit points. 

Greater Weapon Focus:
At 11th level, you gain greater weapon focus as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Break Enchantment (Sp):
At 12th level, you gain break enchantment as a spell-like ability, usable at will. 

Restoration (Sp):
At 14th level, you gain restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  You do not need to provide the material component. 

Greater Weapon Specialization:
At 16th level, you gain greater weapon specialization as a bonus feat, even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.  You must select the same type of weapon for this feat as you chose for weapon focus at 1st level. 

Greater Restoration (Sp):
At 20th level, you gain greater restoration as a spell-like ability, usable at will.  You do not pay the xp cost. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 29, 2017, 11:59:56 PM
Stalwart
"You shall not pass!"
Robert Nivelle

Making a Stalwart
Abilities: "The best defense is a good offense," so stalwarts benefit from a high Strength score.  Charisma improves the save DCs of stalwart invocations.  Any stalwart looking to acquire the Improved Trip feat will need an Intelligence score of at least 13. 
Races: Dwarves are predisposed to becoming stalwarts, in spite of their charisma penalty.  Elves sometimes pursue this class due to their love of both magic and swordsmanship, but their penalty to constitution hinders their durability.  Humans, however, make up the majority of stalwarts. 
Alignment: Overall, stalwarts tend slightly toward lawful alignments. 
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 (150 gp)
Starting Age: As fighter. 

Hit Die: d10
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
11202Second skinLeast1
22303Bonus featLeast2
33313Dauntless (fear)Least2
44414Least3
55414Bonus featLeast3
66525Tenacity (fatigue)Lesser4
77525Ignore encumbrance (medium)Lesser4
88626Bonus featLesser5
99636Dauntless (charms and compulsions)Lesser5
1010737MettleLesser6
1111737Bonus featGreater7
1212848Tenacity (nonlethal damage)Greater7
1313848Ignore encumbrance (heavy)Greater8
1414949Bonus featGreater8
1515959Dauntless (all mind-affecting)Greater9
161610510Dark10
171710510Bonus featDark10
181811611Tenacity (stunning)Dark11
191911611Dark11
202012612Bonus feat, improved mettleDark12
Class Skills (4 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
You are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Your stalwart invocations do not suffer a spell failure chance from any armor or shields. 

Invocations:
You use invocations, like a warlock or dragonfire adept, except that your invocations are drawn from the stalwart class list. 

Second Skin (Ex):
You can sleep in medium or heavy armor without becoming fatigued. 

Bonus Feat (Ex):
At 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, you gain a bonus feat.  These feats must be drawn from the fighter bonus feat list, and you must meet all prerequisites. 

Dauntless (Ex):
At 3rd level, you gain immunity to fear effects.  At 9th level, you gain immunity to charms and compulsions.  Finally, at 15th level, you gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (but you may still choose to benefit from helpful mind-affecting effects). 

Tenacity (Ex):
At 6th level, you gain immunity to fatigue and exhaustion.  At 12th level, you gain immunity to nonlethal damage.  Finally, at 18th level, you gain immunity to stunning. 

Ignore Encumbrance (Ex):
Beginning at 7th level, wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load does not reduce your speed.  Beginning at 13th level, wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load does not reduce your speed, nor does it limit you to moving only 3x your speed when running or charging. 

Mettle (Ex):
Beginning at 10th level, if you are subjected to an effect that normally allows a fortitude or will save for partial effect, you suffer no effect on a successful saving throw. 

Improved Mettle (Ex):
Beginning at 20th level, if subjected to an effect that allows a fortitude or will save for partial effect, you take only the partial effect on a failed save (and no effect on a successful save, just as with Mettle). 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 30, 2017, 12:00:02 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 30, 2017, 12:00:08 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 30, 2017, 12:00:38 AM
Invocations

Reused Invocations
[Not all of the classes will use all of these.  But I'm not going to wory about that yet.] 

Least

Lesser

Greater

Dark

New Invocations
[Not all of the classes will use all of these.  But I'm not going to wory about that yet.] 

Least

Lesser

Greater

Dark

Invocation Descriptions

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 30, 2017, 12:00:55 AM
Okay, well Untamed is posted.  If anyone wants to comment on that, feel free.  I'll be working on getting the other four up here, but I'm not sure how long that will take. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: RobbyPants on October 30, 2017, 09:31:07 AM
The Untamed looks interesting. I haven't taken the time to build one by selecting invocations, but the idea of a full-BAB fighter-type that gets utility tricks is good. I'm assuming all of the damage is dealt with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, and the invocations are used to keep the class viable.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 30, 2017, 06:10:58 PM
Yeah, the class itself doesn't give that much damage, so you'd be mostly reliant on traditional power attack use.  To some extent, eldritch channeling (basically a copy of duskblade's arcane channeling) could help with damage, but I was planning to gear the touch-range invocations more toward inflicting status effects than damage output. 

Eldritch channeling to some extent conflicts with power attack, because it's a standard (or, later, full-round) action.  And some of the best power attack use involves charging.  But I included a wraithstrike invocation, so you can have all your attacks be touch attacks, if you're willing to spend a swift action every round.  That should at least let you power attack for full without shock trooper, though it still doesn't give you increased returns from power attack, like you can get from charging. 

Also, in order to keep wraithstrike from being the obvious choice, I'm trying to come up with other swift-action invocations that can compete with it.  So far, I've got a 1-round, swift-action equivalent of greater mighty wallop, and an "ignore DR/regen" one, but I'm not sure those actually succeed at being in the same league.  I'm also considering a psionic-lion's-charge-style one and something like the cursed blade spell, but again, I'm not sure how to make them competitive. 

If you've got any suggestions for invocations, I'm wide open.  I feel like I need more & better swift-action ones, more touch-range ones to use with eldritch channeling, and more utility ones to let the class be more than a beat-stick.  So more of everything. 

I'm glad you like the full base attack bonus + utility idea, because that's what all the other classes are going to be too.  I was originally making just one class (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11166.0), but whenever I tried to make it general enough to be used for all themes, it wound up feeling too generic.  This is the one that's thematically crossed with barbarian.  The other ones are crosses with paladin (and its non-LG variants), rogue, ranger, and monk.  I gave up on the one that was themed after fighter, because I couldn't find much of a theme in fighter to work with. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Versatility_Nut on October 30, 2017, 11:38:36 PM
Hmm... Swift Action invocations that act as single-round attack buffs? Well, pure damage always works. +Cha to Attack and Damage for every attack this round is an easy Least or Lesser invocation. Knocking enemies Prone while adding Bludgeoning or Force damage to attacks would also work. Maybe have the Prone and Bludgeoning on a Lesser Invocation and have Knockback and Force damage on a Greater Invocation.

Personally, I'd add an Eldritch Channeling for Opportunity Attacks, so that extremely dominantly CC Invocations have a more frequent use case.

Now, let's talk about the other classes. My guesses as to counterparts for each class is as follows:

Bastion = Paladin
Infiltrator = Rogue
Reaper = Ranger
Untamed = Barbarian
Youxia = Monk

Now, I kinda dislike purely "Like X, except Y" classes, so I'll give some ideas about how to differentiate them. Giving Eldritch Channeling to the Barbarian equivalent seems... odd to me, but having Invocations with "backlash" damage, like the Vicious weapon enhancement, would make it somewhat more fitting. Honestly, I'd actually prefer to have each class have a fundamentally different Invocation alteration. Bastions getting to turn Invocations into Auras, Infiltrators increasing CL and/or save DCs with a Sneak Attack variety booster, Reapers getting tricks based on Fighting Style and Youxia getting to use Invocations as (Su) personal buffs. Kinda replacing some class feature functions with Invocations.

I'd also like to adjust the Untamed from being an Invocation based Duskblade/Barbarian mix to being more unique. Instead of just Arcane Channeling for Invocations, it could be something that has different details. Maybe just

Some ideas for each class, to give options outside of Invocations:

Bastion: The only thing I see with a good option for making into a variable part of the class's foundation is really just copying what Pathfinder did to the Special Mount. Which is to say, choose between a mount and a Kensai-type weapon/armor enhancement. Perhaps just flat out Heirloom Relic or Item Familiar style "pick an item to have level-appropriate Magic upon." The Special "Mount," of course, could be anything from a really heavily Improved Familiar to a supermount to... well, an Animal Companion or Cohort stand in. Lots of options, best to limit by CR if you don't give a list because HD is screwed too many ways.

Infiltrator: The actual 3.5 Rogue has an option list that includes some things which can work as outright class features. Something similar, shifted to being more spread out, could give alternate uses for the bonus to CL/DC on Invocations and niche abilities that emphasize different skillmonkey and stealth character abilities, like getting esoteric vision modes. Not just Darkvision, mind, but True Seeing, outright Divination by way of eldritch energy infused artificial eye ala Eye of Kilrogg. Also stuff that makes certain areas of understanding not hot garbage from sinking too many resources for basic competence(WHY THE HELL ARE THERE THREE STEALTH SKILLS?!) like increasing Spot and Listen check DCs to notice you, or short-distance teleportation/intangible movement to go through walls without needing to cover the hallways. Stuff that could be Invocations, but would be too harshly utility to compete with many existing Invocations.

Reaper: I'd have the Animal Companion setup, if retained, altered into basically having a pet Fiend of Possession. Able to freely swap between items and bonuses to be basically a freeform magic item, of lower value than the Bastion's static item with variable bonuses, as well as being able to give yet-smaller bonuses by merging with the Reaper themselves. Or just be out and about as an ally Outsider that happens to have the power of possession. Possessing enemies, naturally, needs to be restricted to something relatively reasonable in power differential. The real character choices would obviously be Fighting Styles, of which I'd prefer three, each getting associated Invocation alterations. Two weapon fighting, with the ability to use multiple weaker Invocations at reduced CL/DC, two handed fighting, with the ability to make Invocations stronger, conditionally, and a throwing weapon style for long-range Invocations and being a switch-hitter.

Youxia: ...Okay, I'm really drawing a blank here. Extra bonuses for getting particular combinations of options covers the one mechanic in 3.5 actually named Martial Arts, as well as paralleling one of the Monk AFC sets. But those option lists are more than a little confusing to set up, as Monk's closest thing to an option list is a fixed list of Bonus Feats. Which... would work perfectly fine, honestly. If you give Eldritch Blast for non-insignificant ranged attack power, then you get something to interact with for abnormal functions, giving fuel for options. Stuff like having some Gish-centric alternate uses of Eldritch Blast in feats that a Warlock could pick to become a Gish. Like having recharging temporary HP based directly on Eldritch Blast damage dice, or having it be used for rebound damage scaling. Basically just gives a thing to attach options to.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 31, 2017, 06:07:27 PM
I'm a very bid fan of arcane channeling as a gish ability.  I feel like most gishes, at any given time, are either swinging a sword or casting a spell.  So, in that moment, they're kind of either a warrior or a mage, not both.  I mean, I know that's a gross oversimplification.  But arcane channeling just feels like it hybridizes the two sides in a way that traditional gishes don't. 

Additionally, I've always been very puzzled that, before duskblade, channeling abilities were so few, and so limited.  The core rulebooks let anyone channel touch spells through unarmed strikes.  You don't even need the improved unarmed strike feat.  So everyone can already deal melee damage in conjunction with delivering a touch spell.  Why were they so stingy with abilities that amounted to nothing but expanding the list of weapons you can use?  Did they want all gishes to be monk-based?  (Actually, that would explain why they bothered to make arcane spell failure chance a thing.) 

So, for channeling on attacks of opportunity, would that just be a modifier to Eldritch Channeling?  For example, when you use Eldritch Channeling, all other attack until the start of your next turn also carry the touch spell? 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on October 31, 2017, 06:20:46 PM
Here are a few more swift/immediate invocation ideas.  Hunter's eye would probably only be for infiltrator and reaper. 

Deflect
Least; 2nd
You gain a deflection bonus to AC against one attack.  This bonus is equal to 1/2 your caster level (rounded down).  Using this invocation is an immediate action. 

Hunter's Eye
Lesser; 2nd
You grant yourself the sneak attack ability for one round.  The extra damage you deal is 1d6 per 3 caster levels.  Using this invocation is a swift action. 

Rewrite Luck
Dark; 6th
After finding out the result of a d20 roll you have made, you can cast this invocation to allow yourself a reroll.  You may use the result of this new die roll, or the original result, whichever is better.  Using this invocation is an immediate action. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 01, 2017, 09:45:11 PM
So, for channeling on attacks of opportunity, would that just be a modifier to Eldritch Channeling?  For example, when you use Eldritch Channeling, all other attack until the start of your next turn also carry the touch spell?
Not quite that. What I'm thinking is the same kind of table entry as the Full Attack one, but for Opportunity Attacks. Literally just being able to use Eldritch Channeling on Opportunity Attacks. You don't need to have it be so complicated, and doing that version means that you get to have as many channeled spells on your Opportunity attacks as you have regular attacks. Which gets obscene with TWF builds.

My own view on Channel abilities is that they're lazy gish fuel. Touch attacks are handled by basic rules, Channeling exists in metamagic form(Smiting Spell) and it's found on a Core PRC(Arcane Archer). The Pathfinder Magus functionally does TWF with spells and a one-handed melee weapon, without actually channeling the spell like 3.5 gishes tend to. They're actually casting a spell alongside their attack, without the need for the attack to hit.

When it comes to Gishes being a mage and a warrior at the same time, that's a very specific kind of Gish. One that can still be represented as a variety of different things, from a bombardment focused archer that loads a volley with Fireballs and aims for maximum saturation to a smite-happy Cleric who tosses their hammer at anyone who looks at them funny. You also have taking your spells and crystallizing them into weapons that set the spell off with every attack, or using your spells turned into Oozes as flanking partners/mounts. You have the potential for an Arcane Mark centered Monk/Sorcerer that has the central feature of applying contingency spells whenever they attack.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on November 01, 2017, 10:52:38 PM
… doing that version means that you get to have as many channeled spells on your Opportunity attacks as you have regular attacks. Which gets obscene with TWF builds.

I don't understand what you mean.  When you use the 13th-level version of arcane channeling, you take a full-round action, during which you cast one touch spell and make a full attack with melee weapons.  Any creature hit by at least one of the melee attacks is targeted by the touch spell. 

How many attacks you have doesn't matter.  One use of arcane channeling casts one spell, never more.  And no matter how many times you hit someone as part of a single use of arcane channeling, they'll only be effected by that spell once.  So you cast one spell per round, and arcane channeling just fiddles with how that spell is targeted. 



What I'm thinking is the same kind of table entry as the Full Attack one, but for Opportunity Attacks. Literally just being able to use Eldritch Channeling on Opportunity Attacks.

Well, baseline arcane channeling is a standard action, and the higher-level version is a full-round action.  In order for the AoO version to be "like" that, it would need to be an immediate action.  That could definitely work. 

But, it sounds like you want it to be a non-action?  I have to say, I'm very much against any spellcasting that doesn't take place as part of a standard, full-round, swift, or immediate action. 



… a variety of different things …

I'm pretty adamant about all the classes being able to deliver touch spells through their swords in the same way they can with unarmed strikes.  I could, however, maybe be convinced to alter how the ability progresses at higher level.  So instead of everyone getting full-attack channeling, someone could gain the ability to channel in conjunction with a charge/spring attack/decisive strike/ whatever. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: linklord231 on November 02, 2017, 03:23:25 AM
I like this.  I like Warlocks and  I like gishes.  I'm on board with the idea.

Regarding the Attack of Opportunity channeling thing, you could do it in a couple ways.  One way would be make it unnecessary by giving sufficient swift action 1-round buffs that last until the beginning of your next turn, so they still apply during AoOs.  You could pilfer some of the Swift X line of spells for more invocation ideas if you want.

Alternatively, you could give an expansion of the base Eldritch Channeling ability like this:
Channeling Opportunist:  At 6th level, you may use Eldritch Channeling to cast a spell as part of an Attack of Opportunity.  If you do so, you may not use Eldritch Channeling on your next turn. 
That could also easily be a feat, if you wanted to go that route. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: RobbyPants on November 02, 2017, 08:42:04 AM
I like what I'm seeing so far and I'm fine with those three swift/immediate invocations.

Should the infiltrator get an invocation or even class ability at higher level to go ethereal? I see they can get flight and a short-range Dimension Door (if they pick those), which seem important for infiltration.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on November 08, 2017, 08:13:03 PM
Okay, well, I've taken the notes I had and put them into a semi-presentable form.  Now let's see how long it takes me to put together my thoughts on the sticking points I'm encountering in designing these classes. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on November 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM
My indecisiveness is manifesting again.  I need some advice.  Do the ideas I've written up here really warrant five different classes?  Or should I go back and take another shot at doing this as one class that can be played several different ways? 

My most recent idea for giving the single class, multiple style approach an interesting spin is to rip off Oriental Adventures.  Each style would be themed after (and named after) one of the clans.  (But a campaign without those clans can instead associate the styles with who-, or what-ever the DM likes.) 

If you guys aren't fed up with my dithering, here's a very rough idea of how the single class might look. 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 15, 2017, 02:51:04 PM
I'd have it be two or three classes, if you're condensing. One for the skillmonkey, one for the melee beatstick and possibly one more for the sheer balls to the walls damage dealer. Basically, Rogue/Ranger/Monk and Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin, or Rogue/Ranger, Paladin/Barbarian and Monk/Fighter.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on November 16, 2017, 03:51:02 AM
All right, well, I'll stick with different classes then.  I wasn't sure how I was going to work skill points with only one clan really equated to a skill monkey anyway. 

And now for some  more musings. 



Bastion

Okay, so I was trying to give this class some shield-related abilities.  And it might also be nice to play up the spear-and-shield angle.  So how about this, when armed with a shield in one hand, and a polearm in the other, the class can attack with either one interchangeably, with no two-weapon fighting penalties?  (This would be mutually exclusive with gaining extra attacks by two-weapon fighting.)  Also, maybe when so armed (and not two-weapon fighting, the class can get 1.5x str to damage with both spear and shield, and treat both as two-handed for purposes of power attack? 

Ultimately, this would work out a lot like wielding a single weapon that can strike both near and far, but it would be thematically different. 

In support of attacks of opportunity, should I give the class some swift-action/1-round invocations that add a movement-stopping effect to all attacks?  Or maybe rip off knight's ability to turn all your threatened squares into difficult terrain, as far as your enemies are concerned? 



Infiltrator

I gave this class a swift-action invocation to gain sneak attack for one round.  But I feel like it only favorably compares to the other swift-action invocations if you're two-weapon fighting.  Should I try to offer more support for the two-weapon fighting angle?  If I'm going to encourage people to do twf sneak attacks, should I make sneak attack an actual class feature?  If I do, I could add sneak-attack-supporting class features/invocations. 

I feel like "pouncing from the shadows" fits this class pretty well.  Should I add in pounce and acrobatic charge?  For acrobatic charge, I figure, there might not always be an unobstructed path from "the shadows" to your target.  If I make a hustle-style invocation, this could work out to be pretty powerful.  Pounce from hiding, full attack, then swift action to move and hide again. 



Reaper

Should I add some polymorph-style invocations?  I'd implement them as bonuses/penalties to stats, rather than stat-replacements.  And maybe some class features to support it, like that one prestige class that let the magical properties of absorbed weapons apply to your claws?  Or some version of the form-mixing ability of master transmorgifist? 

Kind of a random thought here, but if I do a shape-shifting class, should I do something other than animal?  Like maybe the forms the class can take are all aberrations/pseudonatural creatures? 



Untamed

Should I give the class some power-attack tie ins?  Maybe even rip off frenzied berserker, and improve the rate of returns? 

Do you feel like this class should have some sort of mechanic for making one big attack, instead of several small ones?  I was originally thinking something like decisive strike.  But how about something closer to manyshot?  A standard-action attack that deals multiplied damage, but at a penalty?  And the multiplier/penalty depend on your base attack bonus? 



Youxia

You know, I figured "monk's unarmed strike may be a poorly-thought-out mechanic, but throwing it in can't really hurt anything."  But then I got to weapon proficiencies, and I realized that no one would ever use unarmed strike or monk weapons if the class had any of the standard weapon proficiencies. 

So then I was slashing the weapons the class gets, and I realized that even including that small piece of monk rippled out and screwed things up.  Now the class has no weapons that deal more than 1d6 damage, so anyone who's not two-weapon fighting is lagging behind in damage until 12th level. 

Should I just ditch the standard unarmed damage progression and make up a new system for encouraging those specific weapons?  Since they all deal around 1d6 damage, the simplest way to even the damage out with other classes would be to give the two-weapon fighting feats.  Maybe the free two-weapon-fighting feats would only function if all attacks are made with monk weapons and/or unarmed strikes? 



Consolidation

On the subject of merging some of these classes together, how about the rogue and monk ones?  Honestly, I was kind of splitting some ideas between them that I thought would have worked well on one class. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: RobbyPants on November 16, 2017, 08:06:56 AM
Is there a reason to consolidate these?

As for bastion shield abilities, if you want to tie into something like Mettle, you can give them an ability that effectively grants them Evasion (albeit, without the light armor restriction) so long as they are using a heavy or tower shield. I did something like this for my crusader rewrite, and called it Shielded Evasion.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Versatility_Nut on November 16, 2017, 12:05:57 PM
A way to rework the Monk's Unarmed Strike for the Youxia is to make sure to have a good number of CL scaling effects, like Vampiric Touch, and then have the Unarmed Strike be either some set amount of d6s per attack, essentially Unarmed-and-Monk-Weapon-restricted Eldritch Glave for free, or having a CL-dependent Invocation go off with each attack with a CL equal to the number of dice on the Unarmed Strike. Then the issue with a Vampiric Touch on every hit of a Full Attack with a Double Weapon is rendered much smaller as the CL of this is lower than just using Vampiric Touch normally

It has some issues with attack spam, but it gives some vital differentiation of Eldritch Channeling, which is important to having the classes feel different. I'd actually give the Infiltrator bonus damage dice modeled more on Soulknife than Rogue, using up their Swift Action to activate the extra damage that also acts as a CL booster in a similar way. Like, generally give each class a slightly different tie-in to Eldritch Channeling and have two or three "versions" of it, with action-activation, like Soulknife's Psychic Strike, applies-to-X, as you're doing currently, and maybe tied-to-ability, like having the Untamed only get Eldritch Channeling when Raging/when Aggression kicks in.

In general, they feel too similar to Duskblade by being just Invocations usable with attacks, while also keeping too much similarity to their source Martial with how many features are unaltered.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on December 20, 2017, 02:34:37 AM
I'm working on new, improved versions of bastion, infiltrator, and untamed.  I'm not quite ready to post them yet, but I want to get feedback on an idea I've written into the new drafts. 

So, I was thinking about arcane channeling.  Specifically, about how it's only compatible with a regular attack and, later, a full attack.  I was considering adding compatibility with making a charge.  But, you know, you're allowed to charge as a standard action if you're affected by slow, or something similar.  And then there are things like spring attack, decisive blow, and maneuvers. 

How about if I make channeling a swift action?  Charge the weapon up with an effect that discharges on the next successful hit?  (And, you know, fades at the start of your next turn, if it hasn't been discharged by then.) 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Archon on December 20, 2017, 07:41:14 AM
I'm working on new, improved versions of bastion, infiltrator, and untamed.  I'm not quite ready to post them yet, but I want to get feedback on an idea I've written into the new drafts. 

So, I was thinking about arcane channeling.  Specifically, about how it's only compatible with a regular attack and, later, a full attack.  I was considering adding compatibility with making a charge.  But, you know, you're allowed to charge as a standard action if you're affected by slow, or something similar.  And then there are things like spring attack, decisive blow, and maneuvers. 

How about if I make channeling a swift action?  Charge the weapon up with an effect that discharges on the next successful hit?  (And, you know, fades at the start of your next turn, if it hasn't been discharged by then.)

The other thing you could do is attach it to any attack made, 1/round. That might be too much, though.

Are there many other things these classes are going to be doing with their swift actions? I don't remember many. Given that their swift actions don't have too much occupying them, I would say that the swift action channelling would probably work. (and then when you would get a full attack, the charging just doesn't discharge when you hit, but stays till the end of your turn?)
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on December 20, 2017, 06:18:00 PM
Are there many other things these classes are going to be doing with their swift actions?

Well, I was considering giving the classes a hustle invocation, some sort of swift-action teleport, and maybe one or more immediate-action invocation to help against a single attack.  But I guess none of those are really essential.  And, I guess, the good ones can stay and exist alongside channeling. 



and then when you would get a full attack, the charging just doesn't discharge when you hit, but stays till the end of your turn?

Well, I'm not completely sure how I want to work swift-action channeling.  The options I can think of are:

One nice thing about the swift-action idea is, it doesn't actually need to be a class feature.  I can just write swift-action invocations that have these effect.  So, I could potentially make one invocation work one way, and another work a different way. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Archon on December 20, 2017, 11:26:32 PM
Are there many other things these classes are going to be doing with their swift actions?

Well, I was considering giving the classes a hustle invocation, some sort of swift-action teleport, and maybe one or more immediate-action invocation to help against a single attack.  But I guess none of those are really essential.  And, I guess, the good ones can stay and exist alongside channeling. 


That seems about right. But nothing which is a lynch-pin for a class. As you say; if they are good, then people will want them anyway. And just the same, the other way around.

and then when you would get a full attack, the charging just doesn't discharge when you hit, but stays till the end of your turn?

Well, I'm not completely sure how I want to work swift-action channeling.  The options I can think of are:
  • Charge the weapon as a swift action.  The next attack (before the start of your next turn) gains a special effect. 
  • Charge the weapon as a swift action.  Every enemy you hit before the start of your next turn suffers a special effect.  (But hitting a single enemy multiple times in the same turn still only causes the effect on it once.) 
  • Charge the weapon as a swift action.  All attacks until the start of your next turn carry a special effect. 

One nice thing about the swift-action idea is, it doesn't actually need to be a class feature.  I can just write swift-action invocations that have these effect.  So, I could potentially make one invocation work one way, and another work a different way. 

If you're making it a class feature, I'd make it the first and then the third at a higher level - just make the debuff's non-stacking if you want them to only effect someone once (which they probably are/should be anyway).

But as you say; you could just have a bunch of invocations with native channelling. That might be a bit clunky, especially if you want to rework existing invocations to work with that, or create enough varied content to be worth it. But the extra flexibility might be worth it? Not sure.
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on December 30, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
Okay, I'm going to put the current invocations in a spoiler here.  Soon, I'll post a (mostly) new selection.  (I just kind of want to keep the old one for comparison.) 

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on December 30, 2017, 03:23:22 PM
I have a few questions on potential invocations. 

When I put in teleport and plane shift invocations, should I combine both into a single invocation, or not?  I feel like there should be some kind of limitation.  Should it have a long casting time?  Or what?  I'm also considering working it as some sort of portal.  I feel like, if enemies can potentially follow you, it doesn't subvert the tension of combat as much.  Any ideas on how that would work? 

When I add invocations that attack ability scores, should it be ability drain, ability damage, or just a penalty?  Penalties that don't stack would prevent spamming. 

I'm not sure what to do about a silence invocation for Infiltrator.  If I want the class to be able to put silence on someone with a melee attack, then I have to make an invocation especially for that (the way I'm working it now).  If I want the class to have the a silence aura, but not the ability to produce arbitrarily-many silencing stones (or whatever) that they can carry around, I need to make it an emenation.  But buff invocations tend to have a duration of 24 hours, and I'm not sure anyone would actually want to radiate silence for that long. 

Should I put in a channeled version of Vampiric Strike?  Or a copy of Psychic Warrior's Vampiric Blade?  Should it have that "only up to 1/2" limitation that the at-will healing abilities tend to? 

Edit: Oh, and the new invocations are up. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on January 08, 2018, 05:23:30 PM
Okay, I'm going to post a revised Infiltrator, so I'll put the old version here for comparison. 

(click to show/hide)

Edit: Okay, the new Infiltrator is posted. 
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on January 16, 2018, 06:26:15 PM
Okay, I'm working on a new version of Bastion, but I've got a couple of that worry me about the current draft.  First, am I pushing the spear and shield angle too hard?  Second, does giving bastion mind-affecting immunity steel the thunder of untamed? 

LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
11202Somatic weaponryLeast1
22303Special abilityLeast2
33313Dauntless (fear)Least2
44414Least3
55414Special abilityLeast3
66525Tenacity (fatigue)Lesser4
77525Second skin (1 category)Lesser4
88626Special abilityLesser5
99636Dauntless (charms and compulsions)Lesser5
1010737MettleLesser6
1111737Special abilityGreater7
1212848Tenacity (nonlethal damage)Greater7
1313848Second skin (2 categories)Greater8
1414949Special abilityGreater8
1515959Dauntless (all mind-affecting)Greater9
161610510Dark10
171710510Special abilityDark10
181811611Tenacity (stunning)Dark11
191911611Dark11
202012612Improved mettle, special abilityDark12

Somatic Weaponry:
You gain somatic weaponry as a bonus feat. 

Special Ability (Ex):
At 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, you gain a special ability, chosen from the list below. 

Bonus Feat: You gain a bonus feat, chosen from the fighter bonus feat list.  You must meet all the prerequisites of the feat you choose. 

Eldritch Toughness: You can use your charisma modifier instead of your constitution modifier to determine you hit point total.  You must be at least 9th level in [this class] to select this special ability. 

Pole Sweep: You gain improved trip as a bonus feat.  (Even if you do not meet the prerequisites.)  Additionally, you can make trip attempts using any sort of polearm, not just those that can normally be used for tripping.  (When making a trip with one of these weapons, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped in return.) 

Retaliation: You can make an attack of opportunity against an enemy that successfully strikes you with a melee attack.  If you also have the karmic strike feat, you may still only make one attack of opportunity per enemy attack.  You must have at least 5 levels in [this class] in order to select this special ability. 

Shield Warrior: When you use a shield, all your melee weapons deal damage as if you were wielding them in two hands.  You may not utilize two-weapon fighting in any round in which you apply this benefit.  (You can still make a shield bash, but you must make it using one of your normal allotment of attacks.)   

Skewer: You can wield a spear or longspear (sized for you) as a 1-handed weapon.  This benefit does not apply to any other weapons. 

Sliding Grip: When using a polarm that provides reach, you also threaten adjacent squares.  Unlike the short haft feat, you continuously threaten both areas, rather than needing to switch between them. 

Dauntless (Ex):
At 3rd level, you gain immunity to fear effects.  At 9th level, you gain immunity to charms and compusions.  Finally, at 15th level, you gain immunity to all mind-affecting effects (but you may still choose to benefit from helpful mind-affecting effects). 

Tenacity (Ex):
At 6th level, you gain immunity to fatigue and exhaustion.  At 12th level, you gain immunity to nonlethal damage.  Finally, at 18th level, you gain immunity to stunning. 

Second Skin (Ex):
Beginning at 7th level, you treat any armor you wear as if it were 1 category lighter for purposes of determining your speed.  Beginning at 13th level, you may treat armor as 2 categories lighter. 

Mettle (Ex):

Improved Mettle (Ex):
Title: Re: 5 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on May 14, 2018, 02:53:04 AM
Okay, so here's the first draft of another class. 

Sawbones

Hit Die: d8
LevelAttackFortRefWillSpecialInvocation LevelInvocations Known
10202favored weapon (+1 attack)Least1
21303immunity to diseaseLeast2
32313touch of healingLeast2
43414Least3
53414favored weapon (+2 attack)Least3
64525lesser restorationLesser4
75525Lesser4
86626panacea (but no healing)Lesser5
96636favored weapon (+3 attack)Lesser5
107737favored weapon (double threat range)Lesser6
118737Greater7
129848break enchantmentGreater7
139848favored weapon (+4 attack)Greater8
1410949restorationGreater8
1511959Greater9
161210510healing touch regenerates limbsDark10
171210510favored weapon (+5 attack)Dark10
181311611greater restorationDark11
191411611Dark11
201512612favored weapon (triple threat range)Dark12

Class Skills (4 + int per level x4 at 1st level): Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
all simple weapons
one martial weapon (player's choice)
medium armor
shields (except tower shields)

Invocations
ignore spell failure for medium armor and shields (except tower shields)

Favored Weapon:
choose any type of weapon you are proficient with
it is now your "favored weapon"
doesn't have to be deity's favored weapon, but certainly can be
scaling bonus on attacks with that type of weapon
10th: double threat range with that type of weapon (doesn't stack with keen/imp crit)
20th: threat range with that type of weapon is tripled
counts as weapon focus for prerequisites
at 10th, also counts as improved critical for prerequisites

Immunity to Disease

Touch of Healing:
heal 2d8 damage (up to half max HP)
usable at will
+1d8 healing every odd-numbered level

Restoration
6th: lesser restoration at will
14th: restoration at will (no cost)
18th: greater restoration at will (still no cost)

Panacea
cast panacea at will, except it doesn't heal damage

Break Enchantment
cast break enchantment at will
[this can fix stone to flesh, right?]

Regenerate
at 16th level, touch of healing also restores limbs etc
works like regeneration spell (except the healing part)
still heals 1d8/2 levels (rounded up), to a maximum of half HP
Title: Re: 3 Melee Warlocks
Post by: Maat Mons on May 20, 2018, 03:21:33 AM
New versions of all 5 3 classes are up! 

Please give Infiltrator, Sawbones, and Stalwart a look, and tell me what you think.  Especially Sawbones, because I really need to brainstorm some more class features for that one. 

I'm trying to set Sawbones up to be able to handle the most common healy-type stuff.  But I'm also trying not to make the class too much about that.  How have I done?  Bear in mind, I'm not planning on creating any healy invocations.  I want the class to just incidentally gain basic healing competence, and then use the invocations for fun stuff.