Author Topic: General Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 211727 times)

Offline ketaro

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #980 on: October 19, 2017, 01:25:33 AM »
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Their life is a performance.

Are you saying it doesn't take Intelligence to set up a long con like that?  :rolleyes

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #981 on: October 19, 2017, 09:03:53 AM »
Bluff and Perform are both charisma based.
And to many it just comes naturally and may not actually be a con except perhaps planned scandals meant to have people talk about them, and those are often planned by other people for them too. The Idols are the face but most have a whole team behind them. Often the one that made them Idols in the first place.
Idols that are smart have more skill points which could allow them to do more of the job on their own but ultimately being an Idol is all about connecting with people (or at least people feeling like they connect with them), and that's charisma.
In mecha stuff, I think I only know Lacus Clyne/Meer Campbell and, while the former isn't totally stupid (and probably has more levels in Peace Princess anyway), their work as an Idol was all depending on their charisma.

Looking at the Peace Princess again, looks like she does not actually progress arsenal options for her mech. She her only means to get any installed is through her Connections ability line or by multiclassing, counting only the levels of those pilot classes and they do not stack with Connections, so it is one or the other. Though it mentions that if you have a temp mecha for redeeming quests, you count as being three levels lower for arsenal options as well, except that seems redundant if you have at least 3 peace princess levels since they don't count toward arsenal progression anyway. Arsenal level accessed through Connections are acquired differently.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 01:13:32 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #982 on: October 21, 2017, 11:51:32 AM »
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None of those are really mecha shows besides arguably Xenosaga. Persona is a game about bidding souls to your will so pretty much everything has the potential of having one. Chachamaru probably has more magic on her contruction that any science and DNA Souls shows up in one spin-off game and is never mentioned again. You could make a case for cyber-elves from Megaman Zero, but then that means the protagonists are a bunch of necromancers sacrificing souls to advance their agenda.
They may well be. Or robotic equivalents. X turned his soul into cyber elves, so apparently he had one. Apparently Zero's got one too.
I would say X ascended into an higher form, since every other cyber elf never had a body in the first place. And the bit where Zero is not sure if he's Zero anymore or a copy is supposed to be a big point. Copy-X also got a new body with copied memories after all.

I don't know many Mecha shows/games though the idea was more about scifi in general, losing the soulless debuff whether because those got an actual soul (such as being a living creature transferred into an android body) or because they are so life-like in their behavior that it is hard to tell the difference. Such as an android musician that has such talent and plays with such soul that he may as well have one, even if it doesn't, really. But that part of them could also be a weakness (even though they are already vulnerable to mind-affecting things and can be resurrected/raised somehow, which is kinda weird). They could dream, and so sleep and the likes. Androids with emotions are a lot easier to connect with than most other constructs that aren't barred from using Charisma and their natural penalty to charisma is made less of a penalty for not being able to use it for most stuff you could need it for beyond skill usage. They could also get an extra penalty to social skills when interacting with organic creatures, unless perhaps they manage to hide their artificial nature.
About the raise dead bit, it's connected to the "can be healed by stuff that heals living" bit. They're complex enough for that stuff to work on them. This is, a cure light wounds works just fine in a rock/metal elemental. Also for gameplay convenience's sake.

Also half their point is working close to humanoids. Similar enough to be familiar, but not so similar your instincts start screaming something is wrong. If you don't need to interact with humanoids, there's a lot more efficient ways to build robots after all.

Again I'm willing to consider a way to remove soulless, but I don't want it to be a simple feat/trait/ACF.

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Currently we don't have mechas either. In the future, the most popular idols are those most adept at editing their footage and doing market research and whatnot. Besides the cha-based skills remain cha-based so it's not very adviseable to dump it.
Don't they employ people for that? Same as the ship captain who doesn't go tune up his reactors himself. Idols across eons are usual Idols because they are personalities. They are known because people connect to them and love them. That's all charisma.
There ARE genius musicians, certainly. They make great music (after all, Perform is CHA but Crafting musical pieces is INT) but in a show, the hallmark of the Idol is that they drive their fans wild (even with terrible music) because they perform with style and know how to keep them hooked even when they aren't playing. Their life is a performance.
Nah, that's bards. Idols spend a lot of time training and preparing their dresses/make-ups and whatnot. Even their musics are carefully refined ahead of time, that's why the Ideal Idol is a prepared spellcaster and needs to decide which Idol Musics to use ahead of time instead of improvising on the spot.

Plus this way we get vocaloids Android Idols by default. :p

Idols that are smart have more skill points which could allow them to do more of the job on their own but ultimately being an Idol is all about connecting with people (or at least people feeling like they connect with them), and that's charisma.
In mecha stuff, I think I only know Lacus Clyne/Meer Campbell and, while the former isn't totally stupid (and probably has more levels in Peace Princess anyway), their work as an Idol was all depending on their charisma.
You never saw any Macross? Really? At least one SRW title has a morale-regenerating items in the form of limited-edition music CDs from a macross idol (insert joke about they having tech for making space-faring transforming mechas but still using CDs).

Plus yeah, mecha show idols are usually relatively smart. But if I made the Ideal Idol cha-based, then there would be little reason for them to buff Int.

Looking at the Peace Princess again, looks like she does not actually progress arsenal options for her mech. She her only means to get any installed is through her Connections ability line or by multiclassing, counting only the levels of those pilot classes and they do not stack with Connections, so it is one or the other. Though it mentions that if you have a temp mecha for redeeming quests, you count as being three levels lower for arsenal options as well, except that seems redundant if you have at least 3 peace princess levels since they don't count toward arsenal progression anyway. Arsenal level accessed through Connections are acquired differently.
Ah, my bad, fixed.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #983 on: October 21, 2017, 12:49:33 PM »
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Again I'm willing to consider a way to remove soulless, but I don't want it to be a simple feat/trait/ACF.
Oh, that's fine. I find the way it works odd as other constructs and soulless stuff don't have that penalty but game mechanics are what they are.

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Also for gameplay convenience's sake.
Ah. All right. For convenience.

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But if I made the Ideal Idol cha-based, then there would be little reason for them to buff Int.
Why would they want to buff it? Idols can still do their job with zero brain. Sometimes it might actually make it easier. Just having good base skill points as part of their class fixes it.
Not having a reason to buff Cha seems a much bigger concern.

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Plus this way we get vocaloids Android Idols by default.
To make it accessible to androids? I quickly checked a Macross clip (indeed never watched the shows) of Ranka (Alto's Birthday Present scene). Looks pretty CHA-based to me. Singing, dancing, posing, and her power affects people during the actual performances. Generally trying to appeal and be loved by the audience and making a difference by her personality alone and her song touching even the enemy's heart. If an android cannot be a proper bard, makes sense they wouldn't make proper Idols/Vocaloids either without the Cold Calculations feat, which makes sense to a point since everything they generate is soulless.
But your version of the Idol doesn't even know how to Perform and may as well dump her Charisma stat. It is very odd. But as usual, this is your stuff and you can do whatever you want.
Right now the space Idols are uncharismatic, they can't sing, can't dance, have no personal magnetism, no personality and are possibly ugly. But they can do your calculus no problem. Don't see how that would match any version of the Idols anywhere. I don't play bards so it's not like I'll ever play one but it feels flagrantly wrong to me all the same. End of parenthesis.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:03:53 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #984 on: October 21, 2017, 01:17:05 PM »
Ah, I knew I had forgot something-Perform as class skill added.  :P

Idol Music still needs ranks in it just like Bardic Music, and some effects are directly based on your perform checks, so Cha is still useful.

(Also Ranka's pretty far from a brainless bimbo, but that's something only noticeable when watching the whole series).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 01:19:30 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #985 on: October 21, 2017, 01:45:21 PM »
Not saying she's dumb. Just that Intelligence doesn't seem to be relevant or particularly important to what she does having an effect. At least not half as useful as her charisma.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 02:11:52 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #986 on: October 21, 2017, 08:54:38 PM »
Meh in the end she logically deduces the enemy's weak point to hit for massive damage (when a bunch of veteran pilots and the tech guys couldn't), would say charisma didn't play that much on that.

There's also Basara Nekki from another Macross whose rock music is as likely to piss other people off as not, isn't exactly a beauty, but smart enough to heavyly pimp his ride to make sure he's heard in the thick of battle and even adapt other mechas on the fly. He's also been known to kiss women so badly they fall into coma and his music to leading other pilots to self-destruct their machines with themselves inside. Basara even wears goofy glasses like the nerd he is!

Latooni's the super smart glasses girl from SRW's original characters, yet she also knows how to put up a great idol show when fighting along Shine. The princess technically dances as well, but it's explicitly said Latooni's the one controlling both mechas during their combo attack.

Then Miu Kujou from Kurogane no Linebarrel (manga version) starts as literally a 3rd rate pop idol who is bullied and harassed (specially by her own group's fellow idols) until she becomes a mecha pilot. Then in her first battle she dance-fights a city into rubble. Her own hometown where her parents were still living. Let's just say she has trouble maintaining whatever popularity she had left by then, with her own teammates growing more afraid/suspicious of her.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:57:29 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #987 on: October 21, 2017, 11:41:43 PM »
That's a successful knowledge check. Bards get a special lore check (your Idol doesn't get that one though) too on top of having the knowledges as class skills. Logic itself isn't a class ability, still (except when it somehow is). Are her abilities throughout the whole thing tending to be based on Intelligence or Charisma? If Intelligence, is that the case for the majority of the Idols or is this more of an exception among them?

Basara wears John Lenon glasses. More of a musician's style than nerdiness (they even have a colored tint). Looks like he's pretty popular with the girls. He's such a charisma-based character that "rather than destroying them (his enemies), he wants to win them over."

Latooni dancing as part of her attacks does not make her an Idol. Being smart and using her Intelligence as her main source of power or not is thus irrelevant.

What about Miu Kujou isn't charisma-based then? Being feared is another instance of Charisma usage. Being charismatic doesn't by itself means popular. Especially if your opponents are more charismatic than you, which by the looks of it seems to be the case, her being a third rate Idol against fellow Idols.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 11:50:48 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #988 on: October 22, 2017, 12:22:18 AM »
Latooni dancing as part of her attacks does not make her an Idol. Being smart and using her Intelligence as her main source of power or not is thus irrelevant.

Wow, pause...

Please go check Latooni's Royal Heart Break and consider if you want to review your statement.

(click to show/hide)

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #989 on: October 22, 2017, 02:14:13 AM »
So it all goes down to that one character now? Her profile shows nothing that leads me to think she's an Idol. That clip looks more like a fancy battle move SFX that she cannot perform on her own. Perhaps special effects accompanying a martial stance when grouped with another's.
If she's an Idol all the same, somehow, then she's a very special one. Some strange exception. Seems more like a dervish/battledancer type.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 02:20:01 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #990 on: October 22, 2017, 03:10:18 AM »
So it all goes down to that one character now?
Before replying to the others wanted to check where you stand about Latooni, because Royal Heart Break may just be the most Idolish ability in the whole super robot wars series even taking in account Macross ones. If that's not Idol enough for you, then nothing is.

Her profile shows nothing that leads me to think she's an Idol. That clip looks more like a fancy battle move SFX that she cannot perform on her own. Perhaps special effects accompanying a martial stance when grouped with another's.
If she's an Idol all the same, somehow, then she's a very special one. Some strange exception. Seems more like a dervish/battledancer type.
You shouldn't trust srw english wikis too much, they're woefully incomplete. Shine's basically the sponsor of Latooni's idol career. The princess's paid for the fairlions out of her kingdom own pocket and she's been known for liking to help other people show off, including having an army of maids and buttlers dress up half the original cast. Latooni is Shine's closest friend and brings in the skillz to pull the moves to make the whole thing work during actual battle. The stage and crowd out of nowhere are never properly explained but I personally see it as the whole thing being streamed in real time  to some stadium, which would fit Shine's excentric personality just fine. That or magic. Either way it's Latooni's who is actually leading the show and Shine's along for the ride.

Now Latooni's main job technically is being a military pilot but being an Idol's kinda a part time job anyway. The character I used for the class's pic is after all a professional Hunter but sometimes you gotta dress up and sing on stage to get the people's morale up.


That's a successful knowledge check. Bards get a special lore check (your Idol doesn't get that one though) too on top of having the knowledges as class skills. Logic itself isn't a class ability, still (except when it somehow is). Are her abilities throughout the whole thing tending to be based on Intelligence or Charisma? If Intelligence, is that the case for the majority of the Idols or is this more of an exception among them?
Well by that logic Ranka could be a plain bard. She technically doesn't even get a machine after all.

Basara wears John Lenon glasses. More of a musician's style than nerdiness (they even have a colored tint). Looks like he's pretty popular with the girls. He's such a charisma-based character that "rather than destroying them (his enemies), he wants to win them over."
Still piloting his ride with a guitar-shaped controller. That's really high in the nerd scale last time I checked.

And again he makes his enemies self-destruct.

What about Miu Kujou isn't charisma-based then? Being feared is another instance of Charisma usage. Being charismatic doesn't by itself means popular. Especially if your opponents are more charismatic than you, which by the looks of it seems to be the case, her being a third rate Idol against fellow Idols.

Well, for starters you claim that "rather than destroying them (his enemies), he wants to win them over." is a sign of super charisma, while Miu Kujou's...
(click to show/hide)
As for fear, there's keeping people under control by fear. That's a form of charisma. But more often than not Miu's has the uncharismatic version of fear, where she ends up turning people against her.

On the other hand she was smart enough to find her machine by herself searching when virtually every other pilot in the series had their machines either gifted or the mecha go to them, after which Miu Kujou also figured out its special abilities pretty fast too.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #991 on: October 22, 2017, 10:35:23 AM »
So Latooni indeed cannot do that move without Shine doing it with her. Is Shine the actual Idol? Are the crowd in your theory there for her or her bodyguard?

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Royal Heart Break may just be the most Idolish ability in the whole super robot wars series
I'm not hearing her sing, nor playing music. Her mecha has no speakers or anything. She's dancing and bardic music doesn't care for dance while it is an important Idol thing.
Even though she's leading the attack, she feels like Shine's sidekick, helping make *her* look good, and outside of that move she's still just battledancing.
And it is only the one attack. So it probably is just one of those special attack SFX, not so different from when the sky suddenly goes dark, blood red, from a clear sky to a dark storm, bunch of random flower petals popin' up and similar and after the attack it's all gone.

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Still piloting his ride with a guitar-shaped controller. That's really high in the nerd scale last time I checked.
And again he makes his enemies self-destruct.
In the musician-scale even more. If you were a guitarist and you were told you could control your ride with a guitar, you'd go nuts. Nerds would probably use a game controller instead, and even then I've seen a bunch of retards play games so it isn't very conclusive on the Intelligence scale and certainly not an indicator that you're fighting using Intelligence. Using Perform even to pilot the mecha is putting his charisma to work constantly.
Killing enemies with music nothing new. "Music is their weakpoint" happens often. Senki Zesshou Symphogear does it all the time. RahXephon has the mecha/dolems using sound to fight, Mars Attack... send an enemy that is weak to music and up comes a musician hero to defeat them. Killing enemies with music does not make you an Idol by default either. Just means that you can use music as a weapon and Basara has this spirita special music-based power that is particularly effective.

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Well, for starters you claim that "rather than destroying them (his enemies), he wants to win them over." is a sign of super charisma, while Miu Kujou's...
Even the Peace Princess got a Cha-based ability to be able to perform mass-slaughter. Psycho-killing a lot of people is thus not indicative of low Charisma either. Nor is it indicative of high Intelligence.

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On the other hand she was smart enough to find her machine by herself searching when virtually every other pilot in the series had their machines either gifted or the mecha go to them, after which Miu Kujou also figured out its special abilities pretty fast too.
She could find her class abilities. Nice. Robots are often found by fate or luck. Simon was smart enough to find the Lagann in the bowels of the earth too. Are those abilities she found Intelligence-based and are they Idol abilities or something anybody could have done?

« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 10:39:05 AM by Anomander »

Offline CKirk

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #992 on: October 22, 2017, 11:17:30 AM »
Before replying to the others wanted to check where you stand about Latooni, because Royal Heart Break may just be the most Idolish ability in the whole super robot wars series even taking in account Macross ones. If that's not Idol enough for you, then nothing is.

Royal Heart Breaker may be the most idol-ish ability in SRW, but Latooni is *not* an idol. She's a Real Robot Pilot through and through. her backstory, her characterization, and everything she does that isn't RHB is incredibly Real Robot. She's part of the Agressors, the most skilled piloting squadron in the earth sphere!

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #993 on: October 22, 2017, 08:18:35 PM »
Before replying to the others wanted to check where you stand about Latooni, because Royal Heart Break may just be the most Idolish ability in the whole super robot wars series even taking in account Macross ones. If that's not Idol enough for you, then nothing is.

Royal Heart Breaker may be the most idol-ish ability in SRW, but Latooni is *not* an idol. She's a Real Robot Pilot through and through. her backstory, her characterization, and everything she does that isn't RHB is incredibly Real Robot. She's part of the Agressors, the most skilled piloting squadron in the earth sphere!
Lolwhut?

I don't recall a single time the gang gets all together and the Aggressors are picked up to lead the charge against the final big bad. That's usually the ATX or SRX teams. None of the Agressor's members were even a main character in my memory, in contrast to Kyosuke/Excellen, Ryusei, Khushua, Sanger motherfucking Zonvolt, etc. Which Aggressor exactly is more skilled than the Sword that Smites Evil? Or more skilled than the pilot who tames a mecha-sized god to use as her ride?

And Latooni in particular had the very shameful display of letting a cutting edge prototype get stolen while she was riding it at the start of OG2. By somebody piloting a basic lion. I'll repeat it for good measure, Latooni in a high grade prototype gets her ass handed to her by somebody in the second most mook model in the whole series, basic cannon fodder even back at the start of OG1. That's hardly a great show of skill, and I'm pretty sure any serious military wouldn't keep around somebody who just lets the enemy loot their brand new super expensive machine from under your nose, at least not without some punishment.

But Latooni's the original's mascot, up to the point she was wearing a super frilly dress at the time, so of course they talk to the high brass to forgive her and let her in a new machine.

She also adds "wa" at the end of lots of her sentences in japanese too to go along her frilly dress for max moe character. Even in the wiki she's dressed like an idol whereas full real pilots are actually in their military/pilot uniforms.

So Latooni indeed cannot do that move without Shine doing it with her. Is Shine the actual Idol? Are the crowd in your theory there for her or her bodyguard?
Latooni's not Shine's bodyguard, they're not sticking together everywhere. Shine's a peace princess (I used her pic for a reason), and as pointed above Latooni knows how to be pretty popular by herself to the point she evades punishment for letting brand new prototypes mugged because she can drive those around to adore her (did I mention how she dresses the most frilly of any original character during battle?)

Shine in the other hand started as a "higher than thou" arrogant brat and only started getting better after another Original heavily chastised her.

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Royal Heart Break may just be the most Idolish ability in the whole super robot wars series
I'm not hearing her sing, nor playing music. Her mecha has no speakers or anything. She's dancing and bardic music doesn't care for dance while it is an important Idol thing.
Even though she's leading the attack, she feels like Shine's sidekick, helping make *her* look good, and outside of that move she's still just battledancing.
And it is only the one attack. So it probably is just one of those special attack SFX, not so different from when the sky suddenly goes dark, blood red, from a clear sky to a dark storm, bunch of random flower petals popin' up and similar and after the attack it's all gone.
Or I could actually make a class about fighting in stage while making the crowd go wild instead of dismissing it as "just SFX". Latooni's a big part of that inspiration.

Plus trivia, Latooni's clothing change in the middle of action is something Macross idols have been known to do.

And where do you think the background music is coming from? :p
(before you claim every pilot has music, also anybody in D&D can play an instrument, but a bard gets to it to provide bonus)
Changed Idol Music to Idol Show anyway.

Also remember me to make some feat or prc to make skies suddenly go dark and blood red and whatnot when you unleash your special attack. :smirk

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Still piloting his ride with a guitar-shaped controller. That's really high in the nerd scale last time I checked.
And again he makes his enemies self-destruct.
In the musician-scale even more. If you were a guitarist and you were told you could control your ride with a guitar, you'd go nuts. Nerds would probably use a game controller instead, and even then I've seen a bunch of retards play games so it isn't very conclusive on the Intelligence scale and certainly not an indicator that you're fighting using Intelligence. Using Perform even to pilot the mecha is putting his charisma to work constantly.
Killing enemies with music nothing new. "Music is their weakpoint" happens often. Senki Zesshou Symphogear does it all the time. RahXephon has the mecha/dolems using sound to fight, Mars Attack... send an enemy that is weak to music and up comes a musician hero to defeat them. Killing enemies with music does not make you an Idol by default either. Just means that you can use music as a weapon and Basara has this spirita special music-based power that is particularly effective.
You can have high Int and still look like a retard if your Cha and Wis are low enough.

On the other hand right now we have the tech to make any mechanical ride controllable by a guitar, but how many musicians do you see doing it? None that I remember, and that's because piloting a vehicle with a guitar is a demonstration of nerd gaming skillz like Ryusei and... Crap, I just cornered myself.  :blush

Ok you win this one.

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Well, for starters you claim that "rather than destroying them (his enemies), he wants to win them over." is a sign of super charisma, while Miu Kujou's...
Even the Peace Princess got a Cha-based ability to be able to perform mass-slaughter. Psycho-killing a lot of people is thus not indicative of low Charisma either. Nor is it indicative of high Intelligence.
Couple Key differences is that a)genocyde princess gets others to help her instead of they going "bitch be crazy, somebody restrain her!" and b)she's not actively enjoying it, rather taking it as serious dirty work that needs to be done. Miu is loving that shit, but doesn't get anybody else to follow her killing sprees.

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On the other hand she was smart enough to find her machine by herself searching when virtually every other pilot in the series had their machines either gifted or the mecha go to them, after which Miu Kujou also figured out its special abilities pretty fast too.
She could find her class abilities. Nice. Robots are often found by fate or luck. Simon was smart enough to find the Lagann in the bowels of the earth too. Are those abilities she found Intelligence-based and are they Idol abilities or something anybody could have done?
Search is indeed Int based and she was smart enough to figure out "if I follow the main character, some new machine is bound to be nearby, then just gotta snatch it up first before somebody else does", which makes her one of the smartest characters in the series. Not randomly wandering and tripping in a cockpit. Miu knew what she was getting herself into.

Anyway I bring a new Int Idol example that I can't believe I forgot: Lulu V.Britannia!
-Loves to put up a great show.
-Gets about half the world dancing to his tune.
-Great at buffing his allies.
-Even has magic powers based on charming/dominating others!
-Definitely Int based. Chess master, tactical genius, plans multiple steps ahead.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 09:28:13 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #994 on: October 22, 2017, 10:37:22 PM »
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Latooni's not Shine's bodyguard
Just reporting what the wiki says.

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Couple Key differences is that a)genocyde princess gets others to help her instead of they going "bitch be crazy, somebody restrain her!" and b)she's not actively enjoying it, rather taking it as serious dirty work that needs to be done. Miu is loving that shit, but doesn't get anybody else to follow her killing sprees
Don't see how that makes any difference. Being good at killing does not equal being an Idol. Nor intelligence being the main stat involved.

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Search is indeed Int based and she was smart enough to figure out "if I follow the main character, some new machine is bound to be nearby, then just gotta snatch it up first before somebody else does", which makes her one of the smartest characters in the series. Not randomly wandering and tripping in a cockpit. Miu knew what she was getting herself into.
Maybe she multiclassed into that mecha-finding class you're brewing. Are those mecha-abilities she found in the mecha Intelligence-based and were they dependent on being an Idol? How are her actual Idol abilities reflecting being Int-based instead of what is common to Idols?

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Anyway I bring a new Int Idol example that I can't believe I forgot: Lulu V.Britannia!
He isn't a Peace Prince/ss? Being actual royalty helps here. Maybe a multiclass but he wouldn't need to.
-Loves to put up a great show.  Cha.
-Gets about half the world dancing to his tune. Cha
-Great at buffing his allies. Could be either way. But Peace Princess are good at buffing too.
-Even has magic powers based on charming/dominating others! Arcane Genetics. Though the power comes from another so whether it counts or not as his own class ability is debatable. It's still mystic stuff that feels pretty Cha-based.
-Definitely Int based. Chess master, tactical genius, plans multiple steps ahead. Maybe the Peace Princess should be Int-based. Kidding. Actually... it could. But not by default. Doesn't feel like the norm. Kinda like the Idol.

His intelligence shines in battle in his ability to control very complicated mecha systems. His ability to find good tactics for his troops and generally making great plans aren't class abilities, though. It is more a part of the character knowing how to use everyone's abilities and talents correctly to get the best results. Being a great leader and a magnificent manipulating bastard is Charisma-based but similarly more of an application of skills. He's good at making people believe in him and playing with their mind and make people no longer want to kill him or even turn against their allies, which is something the Peace Princess actually gets as class abilities. But when he actually fights he is definitely making good use of his Intelligence with a mecha built to make the best of it.

Looking at the Peace Princess again, it feels like the Idol could just as well be some kind of Peace Princess, replacing an ability with occasional Bardic Music-like feature. Many PP abilities make sense for an Idol too.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 10:43:58 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #995 on: October 23, 2017, 12:19:51 AM »
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Latooni's not Shine's bodyguard
Just reporting what the wiki says.
Ah, that's more of the high brass ordering latooni to make sure Shine doesn't get herself killed when the princess insists on fighting in the frontlines. Thought you were talking about a class feature. But even then that only starts in the mid OG2 (Shine isn't playable at all before while Latooni is), and at the start of OG Gaiden Shine is again left behind while Latooni's on the frontlines.

Rest of the points stands. Int based in frilly clothes and glasses for the sake of glasses, most Idolish ability in any mecha media.

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Couple Key differences is that a)genocyde princess gets others to help her instead of they going "bitch be crazy, somebody restrain her!" and b)she's not actively enjoying it, rather taking it as serious dirty work that needs to be done. Miu is loving that shit, but doesn't get anybody else to follow her killing sprees
Don't see how that makes any difference. Being good at killing does not equal being an Idol. Nor intelligence being the main stat involved.
It shows her charisma isn't anything to write home about. She however does it as a (twisted) way to get attention.

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Search is indeed Int based and she was smart enough to figure out "if I follow the main character, some new machine is bound to be nearby, then just gotta snatch it up first before somebody else does", which makes her one of the smartest characters in the series. Not randomly wandering and tripping in a cockpit. Miu knew what she was getting herself into.
Maybe she multiclassed into that mecha-finding class you're brewing.
Unlikely since she pilots the same machine for the rest of her career.

Are those mecha-abilities she found in the mecha Intelligence-based and were they dependent on being an Idol? How are her actual Idol abilities reflecting being Int-based instead of what is common to Idols?
She coordinates a couple giant independent beast robots (note: nobody else on the side of the protagonists gets giant independent robots). And again she loves to make her fights showy. But again she ends up getting people to despise her.


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Anyway I bring a new Int Idol example that I can't believe I forgot: Lulu V.Britannia!
He isn't a Peace Prince/ss? Being actual royalty helps here. Maybe a multiclass but he wouldn't need to.
-Loves to put up a great show.  Cha.
-Gets about half the world dancing to his tune. Cha
Never heard of skill synergies?

Besides Lulu gets rejected every time he tries to get some private action from a girl

-Great at buffing his allies. Could be either way. But Peace Princess are good at buffing too.
Not over a wide area.

-Even has magic powers based on charming/dominating others! Arcane Genetics. Though the power comes from another so whether it counts or not as his own class ability is debatable. It's still mystic stuff that feels pretty Cha-based.
Lulu can keep multiple simultaneous buffs over a wide area in a lot of people. Arcane Genetics... Cannot.

His intelligence shines in battle in his ability to control very complicated mecha systems. His ability to find good tactics for his troops and generally making great plans aren't class abilities, though. It is more a part of the character knowing how to use everyone's abilities and talents correctly to get the best results.
At the end of his first season his army is winning the battle, but then he leaves and suddenly his troops hold for some more time then suddenly lose all competence and get curbstomped. It's as bardic musicish Idol Showish as you can get.

Being a great leader and a magnificent manipulating bastard is Charisma-based but similarly more of an application of skills.
You know that being skillful is a sign of high Int, not high Cha, right?

He's good at making people believe in him and playing with their mind and make people no longer want to kill him or even turn against their allies, which is something the Peace Princess actually gets as class abilities.
Lulu avoids being killed by either charming/dominating his attackers or getting them killed first.
Even then by the end of the second season his first army is trying to kill him and Lulu's own little sister wants to nuke him from (almost) orbit. Even face to face Lullany only gives up on murdering her big brother when magically brainwashed.


But when he actually fights he is definitely making good use of his Intelligence with a mecha built to make the best of it.
Lulu spends half the first season in a mook model and even when he gets his own super prototype, he's infamous for dropping like a chump whenever anybody gets closer than long artillery range. He's at his most effective behind several lines of other people to buff.

Looking at the Peace Princess again, it feels like the Idol could just as well be some kind of Peace Princess, replacing an ability with occasional Bardic Music-like feature. Many PP abilities make sense for an Idol too.
No, they don't. Idol Show increases your allies killyness over a wide area. Peace Princes's buffs that increase offense are few and short ranged. That's why I made a whole new class, and I won't set it on fire just because you think Peace Princesses should be about siblings driving armies into suicidical frenzies to murder each other leaving only a blasted wasteland on their wake.

It's one of the most important points of the show. An actual Peace Princess presents an alternate plan to Lulu to solve everything without further bloodshed, and Lulu's reply is to turn the streets red.

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #996 on: October 25, 2017, 01:14:21 AM »
Ain't got time to post anything much these days. Actually gotta jet within minutes. Just quickly asking two questions:

Q1: The Child Soldier trait states that "You cannot benefit from magic items on your possession, nor mundane items worth more than 10 GP besides non-magic non-masterwork weapons you're proficient with" but also that all money gained is wasted on useless stuff.
For stuff worth 10gp or less and mundane non-masterwork weapons, is the only way to get them finding them or is spending money on those normally okay?

Q2: When your class requires spending money to advance (such as the Half-Golem levels, case in point) or for a class ability, can money be spent on those normally (as long as it fits the rest of the requirements, such as not having magic items nor using the ability to store/assimilate equipment)? Or are you simply unable to take the trait/lose the trait if you take such a level?

Yes, still considering that feature to get rid of wealth management concerns.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #997 on: October 25, 2017, 11:09:38 AM »
Ain't got time to post anything much these days. Actually gotta jet within minutes. Just quickly asking two questions:

Q1: The Child Soldier trait states that "You cannot benefit from magic items on your possession, nor mundane items worth more than 10 GP besides non-magic non-masterwork weapons you're proficient with" but also that all money gained is wasted on useless stuff.
For stuff worth 10gp or less and mundane non-masterwork weapons, is the only way to get them finding them or is spending money on those normally okay?
You can buy them too.

Q2: When your class requires spending money to advance (such as the Half-Golem levels, case in point) or for a class ability, can money be spent on those normally (as long as it fits the rest of the requirements, such as not having magic items nor using the ability to store/assimilate equipment)? Or are you simply unable to take the trait/lose the trait if you take such a level?
If you have the trait, you could not take class levels that demand money or use such abilities.

Although now I guess one may use Retro Tattoos for that. Tell you what, you come up with a nice wording for that andpost here an updated  trait list to save me work, and I'll allow it.

Yes, still considering that feature to get rid of wealth management concerns.

So now Mao will be saving for retirement and family? :P

Offline Anomander

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #998 on: October 25, 2017, 06:32:59 PM »
Quote from: Osle
So now Mao will be saving for retirement and family? :P
Probably sending all the monies to charities she'd have founded. Parum's Community Foundation or somesuch, helping orphans, improving the living conditions among Parum's poorer communities. Extended to the ship's colonies while she is part of the colonization project. Supporting what could be considered a very large family.

Quote from: Osle
Although now I guess one may use Retro Tattoos for that. Tell you what, you come up with a nice wording for that and post here an updated  trait list to save me work, and I'll allow it.
Ah, true. Good idea. Here's something that could fit the general idea.

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Retro Tattoo: Choose a magic item worth 1500 GP or less that's been printed in an official D&D book and doesn't have limited uses that don't recharge (a bag of tricks would be fine, a wand or scroll not). You gain the benefits of that items as if you had equipped it.
Alternatively you may use up to 1500 GP to pay for the expenses required for your class abilities or feats. The class ability/feat must specifically state the amount of wealth required to use it. Once this option is selected and used, it can only be exchanged with another Retro Tattoo Neo Skill and you must keep track of the amount spent so far out of the total. This carries over even if your essence is harvested and you later recover your Neo Skills.
You can take this Neo Skill multiple times, each time pick another magic item worth 1500 GP or less or increasing the amount available for your class features and feats by 1500 GP.

That wording would make it possible to purchase stuff like expensive spell components/focus (up to the limit granted by the Neo ability) and spend monies on stuff like Riverside View's Death Due, to boost a class ability such as an Ancestral Weapon and my class/prc issue although I'm not sure if feats like Craft Wondrous Item and Pure Crafting have specific enough costs to warrant that use to pay for the raw materials needed to craft the stuff but the trait doesn't allow you to use the stuff crafted unless it is a mundane weapon or worth up to 10 GP anyway. A feat that allows you to spend X gp to activate an effect would work, though.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:37:36 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #999 on: October 26, 2017, 04:55:23 AM »
Quote from: Anom
Quote from: Osle
So now Mao will be saving for retirement and family? :P
Probably sending all the monies to charities she'd have founded. Parum's Community Foundation or somesuch, helping orphans, improving the living conditions among Parum's poorer communities. Extended to the ship's colonies while she is part of the colonization project. Supporting what could be considered a very large family.
I almost feel tempted to give you bonus exp. :P

Quote from: Anom
Quote from: Osle
Although now I guess one may use Retro Tattoos for that. Tell you what, you come up with a nice wording for that and post here an updated  trait list to save me work, and I'll allow it.
Ah, true. Good idea. Here's something that could fit the general idea.

Quote
Retro Tattoo: Choose a magic item worth 1500 GP or less that's been printed in an official D&D book and doesn't have limited uses that don't recharge (a bag of tricks would be fine, a wand or scroll not). You gain the benefits of that items as if you had equipped it.
Alternatively you may use up to 1500 GP to pay for the expenses required for your class abilities or feats. The class ability/feat must specifically state the amount of wealth required to use it. Once this option is selected and used, it can only be exchanged with another Retro Tattoo Neo Skill and you must keep track of the amount spent so far out of the total. This carries over even if your essence is harvested and you later recover your Neo Skills.
You can take this Neo Skill multiple times, each time pick another magic item worth 1500 GP or less or increasing the amount available for your class features and feats by 1500 GP.

That wording would make it possible to purchase stuff like expensive spell components/focus (up to the limit granted by the Neo ability) and spend monies on stuff like Riverside View's Death Due, to boost a class ability such as an Ancestral Weapon and my class/prc issue although I'm not sure if feats like Craft Wondrous Item and Pure Crafting have specific enough costs to warrant that use to pay for the raw materials needed to craft the stuff but the trait doesn't allow you to use the stuff crafted unless it is a mundane weapon or worth up to 10 GP anyway. A feat that allows you to spend X gp to activate an effect would work, though.

And updated trait.