Krevborna (D&D 3.5) - Gothic Horror lvl6 Partial Gestalt interest check

[Skyrock]

EDIT: Campaign Board can now be found here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=265.0

Krevborna is a gothic horror setting created by Jack Shear of the "Tales of the Grotesque & Dungeonesque" blog.

First beginning with how it is different from Ravenloft: It is set on a regular material world without any omnipotent Dark Powers mucking about. There are neither darklords nor domains (meaning if it bleeds, you can kill it, and kill it for good), nor is there corruption for bad deeds (meaning necromancers, assassins, poison-users and so on are fine as PCs without ending up on the fast lane to NPC status). There might even theoretically be hope for this world to get cleansed of all evils eventually.

Krevborna itself is a faux-Eastern European country. Once under the protection of The One and the Kaiser, The One has turned his back to humanity and abandoned them, and the once mighty empire has crumbled, leaving behind a crazy quilt of lawlessness, robber barons and bickering petty lords. Undead, fiends, wolfmen, witches and other things that go bump in the night have pierced and overrun the lands, and in some places even rule openly.

The closest thing to an overarching pillar of civilization is the Church of Saintly Blood, praying to a canon of venerated martyrs and miracle workers to intervene on behalf of mankind. It is equally divided as the temporal rule, and also undermined by fanaticism, corruption and intrigue. - Others have turned to old primeval gods, sought out the fair folk, struck pacts with archdevils and demon princes, or have even turned to unspeakable things from far beyond the stars and far below the waves and soil.

Krevborna is also teeming with various secret societies, factions and not-so-secret societies, ranging from the Incendiary Guild (seeking to free humanity both from monsters and the shackles of superstitious religion through SCIENCE! and reason) to the House of Draghul (who view vampirism as divine sign of nobility, and seek to bring the entire world under open vampire rule).

• Level 6
• Generally all of 1st party 3.5 is fair game if it can be fitted into the gothic horror frame (re-fluffing and re-skinning is fine), as is my Ravenloft material. (Exceptions and modifications will be detailed when the game takes off.) - Dragon Mag and Homebrew will be decided on a case-by-case basis.
  
• Partial Gestalt with the heterodox mix of 1//-, 2//6, 3//5 and 4//4. (PrCs will have their Tier gauged depending on entry.)
• Up to 2 traits
• No flaws - but you can gain up to two bonus feats for a.) rolling ability scores instead of point-buy and b.) rolling a dark secret from Krevborna. You are not committed - if you don't like what the dice produce, you may step away from the result along with the bonus. (EDIT: No more bonus feats for random scores, instead everyone gets a free extra feat by default.)
  
• I am considering to use Chopping Down The Christmas Tree (which heavily reduces WBL and magic items, but gives a level-scaling bonus to attacks, saves and damage and bonus feats granting necessary abilities like flight). Please give your preference for CDTCT or vanilla WBL.

Interested players so far:
- Archon - CDTCT
- Meimu(?) - ???
- Nanshork - abstains
- Oslecamo - CDTCT
- skydragonknight - CDTCT
- Stratovarius - ???

Voting tally:
CDTCT - 2
Vanilla WBL - 0
Abstaining - 1

[Nanshork]

Consider me interested.

[Stratovarius]

Already tagged on discord, but here too.

[Archon]

Looks interesting. I'd like to register interest.

(And I think I'd prefer CDTCT over vanilla)

[Raineh Daze]

Partial Gestalt with the heterodox mix of 1//-, 2//6, 3//5 and 4//4. (PrCs will have their Tier gauged depending on entry.)

I am not entirely sure what that means.

No flaws - but you can gain up to two bonus feats for a.) rolling ability scores instead of point-buy

So if you roll well you get a bonus feat and better stats, but if you have bad luck you can choose to be worse one way or the other? 

I mean, let's just see if 4d6k3 would hate me or not (assuming it's that and not 3d6).

Rolled 4d6 : 5, 5, 1, 3, total 14

Rolled 4d6 : 6, 4, 4, 3, total 17

Rolled 4d6 : 2, 3, 5, 5, total 15

Rolled 4d6 : 5, 1, 3, 1, total 10

Rolled 4d6 : 4, 5, 2, 2, total 13

Rolled 4d6 : 2, 2, 3, 2, total 9

[Raineh Daze]

13, 14, 13, 9, 11, 7.

Yeah, I don't see that as a particularly balanced (in any sense including basic fairness) option. xD

[Nanshork]

He's using a tiered gestalt.

Tier 1 classes don't gestalt.

Tier 2 classes gestalt with a tier 6 class.

Tier 3 classes gestalt with a tier 5 class.

Tier 4 classes gestalt with another tier 4 class.

[Raineh Daze]

Oh, so like a Swordsage//Ninja (either of them) is viable?

[oslecamo]

Interested, would humbly ask to use some of my homebrew, probably something from ToBhou since it seems like a monster wouldn't be exactly welcome (but if I can play a "good" monster then that would be nice). Wouldn't mind trying out another "less items" ruleset although would prefer to use the Savage trait if a monster PC is allowed.

Also assuming we don't need to actually buy the product and the DM will kindly provide setting details as needed.

Although yeah, two bonus feats for rolling random doesn't exactly sound fair.

[Raineh Daze]

Bonus feat for rolling a dark secret of some sort seems fair (I assume it's more plot or roleplaying-related than statistical).

Bonus feat for rolling ability scores does not. There's no reason to not do it because you either get better stats and a feat or you can pick what's more important.

[Nanshork]

Oh, so like a Swordsage//Ninja (either of them) is viable?

Correct.

Also, I agree on rolling stats and getting a bonus frat only benefits people who roll high

[Raineh Daze]

I do want to see if the whole wis-ninja thing and unarmed swordsage circle kick teleport stuff can be done together...

[Archon]

Yeah, not sure the choice is balanced, but if the *point* is to incentivise us to have kinda-random scores, then that's valid, I think.

No idea what kind of build to go for; I'll need to go check the tier-list to see.

[Skyrock]

Counting 5 players so far (plus Meimu/Rei'sen who had indicated on Discord that she might be interested).

Counting votes so far, we have 2 for CDTCT, 0 for vanilla WBL, leaving yet 3-4 votes open.

Re: Bonus Feat for random Ability Scores:
Yes, it is meant as a small incentive to give randomness a chance and think outside of the box, but without forcing randomness or condemning anyone to play with terrible stats.

Does it unbalance the game? Yes, a wee bit. But randomness is to me much more amusing then flaws that are avoided as hard as possible, so I am abusing my tyrannical DM powers here by rewarding it.

Oh, so like a Swordsage//Ninja (either of them) is viable?

Yes, that combo would work!

Wouldn't mind trying out another "less items" ruleset although would prefer to use the Savage trait if a monster PC is allowed.

I'd prefer to keep it at one solution for WBL for the sake of consistency. Savage is sadly out with that, unless standard WBL wins out.

Also assuming we don't need to actually buy the product and the DM will kindly provide setting details as needed.

Correct, I will. That above is just the basic cliff notes, I will expand on the fluff in the game sub-forum once it is set up.

Bonus feat for rolling a dark secret of some sort seems fair (I assume it's more plot or roleplaying-related than statistical).

That is correct. Dark Secrets are soft flaws without direct mechanical impact, generally boiling down to an excuse for the DM to invoke Chandler's Law and have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.

An older revision can still be found on the blog.

No idea what kind of build to go for; I'll need to go check the tier-list to see.

Tier List:

(click to show/hide)

Tier 1: Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Wizard

Tier 2: Cleric (Sponti-ACF), Druid (Sponti-ACF), Favoured Soul, Psion, Shaman (OA), Sorcerer, Spirit Shaman, Wujen

Tier 3: Archivist (Bard-Prog-ACF), Bard, Beguiler, Binder, Cleric (Bard-Prog-ACF), Crusader, Dragon Fire Adept, Dread Necromancer, Druid (Bard-Prog-ACF), Duskblade, Factotum, Incarnate, Psychic Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Shugenja, Swordsage, Totemist, Warblade, Wilder, Wizard (Bard-Prog-ACF)

Tier 4: Adept, Barbarian, Favoured Soul (Bard-Prog-ACF), Hexblade, Jester, Lurk, Ranger (w/ Mystic Ranger ACF), Rogue, Savant, Scout, Shaman (OA, Bard-Prog-ACF), Spellthief (w/ Trickster ACF), Sorcerer (Bard-Prog-ACF), Spirit Shaman (Bard-Prog-ACF), Warlock, Warmage, Wujen (Bard-Prog-ACF)

Tier 5: Battledancer, Dragon Shaman, Fighter, Gleaner (GitP), Healer, Knight, Magewright, Marshal, Monk, Ninja (CA), Paladin, Ranger (w/o Mystic Ranger ACF), Samurai (CW), Sensitive, Shugenja (Bard-Prog-ACF), Spellthief (w/o Trickster ACF), Sohei, Soulborn, Soulknife, Swashbuckler

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior

[Nanshork]

I'm neck deep in building a gestalt character with minions and something like 5 different aura buffs, I'm pretty sure that he's the most complicated non-epic character that I've made.

I'm too distracted to have a WBL system vote, I'll go with whatever.

(Not backing out, just don't have time to go look at rules I'm not familiar with.)

[oslecamo]

Re: Bonus Feat for random Ability Scores:
Yes, it is meant as a small incentive to give randomness a chance and think outside of the box, but without forcing randomness or condemning anyone to play with terrible stats.

Does it unbalance the game? Yes, a wee bit. But randomness is to me much more amusing then flaws that are avoided as hard as possible, so I am abusing my tyrannical DM powers here by rewarding it.

Ok, so which rolling method for stat generation?

Wouldn't mind trying out another "less items" ruleset although would prefer to use the Savage trait if a monster PC is allowed.

I'd prefer to keep it at one solution for WBL for the sake of consistency. Savage is sadly out with that, unless standard WBL wins out.

So does that mean that playing a good/redeemed monster class would be ok?

Also re-reading CDtCT, something that annoys me is the reduction of WBL to just 1/5, because a good chunk of D&D fun is becoming filthy rich. Now I agree it's not very good most of your wealth is in personal gear (even if in LoTR Gandalf does point out the mythral chainshirt alone was worth more than everything else in the Shire put together), but CDtCT doesn't really cover what happens to the other 4/5. So how would you rule this? Is the world just really poor and there's only 1/5 wealth to go around? Does each character have nomal WBL but also a cap of 1/5 WBL of how many magic stuff they can use at a time so the other 4/5 can only be used for mundane stuff and/or luxuries/donations/real estate? What about consumables and switching magic items around?

[Archon]

Yeah, I'll admit I like the idea of becoming filthy rich and getting to spend it on stuff other than magic items to enhance personal prowess.

[Skyrock]

Ok, so which rolling method for stat generation?

4d6k3 in order, and three bonus rolls with 3d6, 2d10 and 1d20. You can swap up to three times, either exchanging two ability scores or swapping one of the bonus rolls in for one ability score. Swaps can also be chained (e.g. if you wanted to play a Wizard and had Con 7, Int 11 and a bonus roll of 17, you could first swap bonus <> Con to get Con 17 and Int 11, and then swap Con <> Int to end up with Con 11 and Int 17).

And yes, bonus rolls can end up above 18, although that is rare.

So does that mean that playing a good/redeemed monster class would be ok?

It could be, depending on party composition and group goals. There are even a couple of examples in the setting, namely Kirk Grims (the spirit of a dead person purposefully and ritually entombed on the first grave of a new hallowed cemetery in order to guard it) and the Wolves of the Holy Throne (a rumored band of pious werewolves who view their curse as a test of faith and fight evil - inspiration by the Abomination class in Darkest Dungeon is obvious).

Also re-reading CDtCT, something that annoys me is the reduction of WBL to just 1/5, because a good chunk of D&D fun is becoming filthy rich. Now I agree it's not very good most of your wealth is in personal gear (even if in LoTR Gandalf does point out the mythral chainshirt alone was worth more than everything else in the Shire put together), but CDtCT doesn't really cover what happens to the other 4/5. So how would you rule this? Is the world just really poor and there's only 1/5 wealth to go around? Does each character have nomal WBL but also a cap of 1/5 WBL of how many magic stuff they can use at a time so the other 4/5 can only be used for mundane stuff and/or luxuries/donations/real estate? What about consumables and switching magic items around?

If that is an issue, the numbers can also be turned around: WBL is normal, but permanent magic items cost 5x as much. No fuzzing with treasure tables or separate budgets, but mundane items and consumables become dirt cheap compared next to magic items so there is some room for fun stuff.

[Raineh Daze]

I'm definitely out, sorry. Rewarding good luck with RNG with more advantages is one thing,  but... so many of the dark secrets want to dictate character facets beyond what the secret is.

And that particular rolling... yeah, I was thinking of doing something heavily MAD. That particular version really screws wanting multiple good stats.

[Skyrock]

so many of the dark secrets want to dictate character facets beyond what the secret is.

I should point out that they are meant as a default starting point that are somewhat malleable. For example, #17 (huge debt from gambling) doesn't have to mean that you are a massive gambler. It just means that you have racked up a massive debt, and that the Chandler people with guns are looking for you for money-related reasons. You could as well be a saintly saint having racked up that debt running an orphanage as far as fluff goes.
I also plan to let people roll 3 times on the table and pick what seems best or most fitting.

Still, no hard feelings. It is better to step away from a game early when you think that it goes into a direction you won't enjoy. If you change your mind, just let me know.