Author Topic: Players Have Say, DM Should Too  (Read 31568 times)

Offline kevin video

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Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« on: December 08, 2011, 10:27:05 PM »
So while I didn't let my players walk all over me, per say, I did let them take it to a vote. Because I'm dumb and believe in democracy. The main reason for this was because they wouldn't stop bitching about how they didn't want to play their offspring next campaign, despite the fact that I'd been fighting with them for how many sessions to stop them from having harems that they could impregnate and unleash a legion of their kids onto the world.

But yeah, they didn't want to play their kids because "it just doesn't fit with how I envision my next character." Why? Because they all want to be CN with evil tendencies. An elf wizard pyromancer that burns everything, including people, just to watch them burn. An artificer that builds bombs just to watch everyone get blown up and see how far they fly. A half-vampire that eats people and drains even the marrow from the bone. A gnome sorcerer that electrocutes everyone that dares to defy him. A warrior with a hammer that smashes everything. A lycanthrope that infects everyone with his disease, and kills anyone who tries to cure themself because they refuse to join the cult.

I had no idea I had such sadistic players. Of course they don't want to be the offspring of their current characters. All the characters are currently good-aligned. These guys are sadistically evil. Possibly even more so. Oh, but they're not evil, they're just really chaotic, but they're neutral to the whole thing. They like the idea of having me list off 200 character hooks, saying "no" to all of them, and then suggesting their own that they talked about behind my back.

So, I finally had it. I e-mailed them all with a group mail saying that while I accepted the fact that the vote for the next campaign would have absolutely nothing to do with the current one, including my acceptance of them being different characters altogether, I refused to do an evil campaign. They had to meet me halfway. If they wanted to do a game that made me build a completely different world than the one I already had so they could play completely different characters, then they weren't allowed to be evil. CN fine, but good tendencies. The last thing I want is for them to break my brand new campaign world just because they randomly felt like it. If they wanted it any other way, I would step down and they could do it themselves. If they wanted to play a bad guy so bad, and try and destroy a DM's game world, they could wait it out and play one in the Friday game with that DM, if they didn't want to run their own game. I wouldn't have any part of it. At the same time, this game would be set up in a way that if they didn't take any of the character hooks, there'd be dire consequences that'd probably end up with their character getting killed, and the campaign ending with them failing hard, and not being allowed to do anything to fix it.

They were fine with that. Only one player's disappointed because he was looking forward to playing the offspring of his character. Especially with how I had set everything up. He got outvoted though. They've got about 10 character ideas. The plan is to pick one, and play it for a bit. If they get bored with it, they'll kill that one off in a vile and messy way, and then go to PC choice #2, and repeat as above until they had nothing left.

I'm going to run the Savage Tides. I've been a player in that with another group. None of these guys have. I know how hard and vile that campaign can be. Even more so when the DM thought it was too easy a campaign and ramped it up a notch and added more Book of Vile Darkness to it.

So, did I do good?
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 10:44:18 PM »
You were too gentle with them, but I'm still proud of you. :bigeyes
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 10:47:08 PM »
You were too gentle with them, but I'm still proud of you. :bigeyes
Well I didn't want to just upright and quit. As it was I was acting like I was butt hurt, which I probably was. I figure the Savage Tides will get them straightened up. If not, they can call foul and railroading, and I can just laugh in their face and show them that the module's against them, not just me.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 10:56:12 PM »
Why would you let them ruin your campaign idea? As a DM, I make the world and they play in it. If I had planned for them to play their offspring, they bloody well will, or at least they will play a character in the game world I make!

You handle them so delicately, but they clearly want none of it. Break out the bondage gear and fight fire with fire. They will bend over, and they will like it!

But seriously, if I DM, I pitch a campaign idea to my players, and they usually accept. In the cases they don't I think of another one. Why should they get a word in it if I am the one who will be doing all the hard work? I need inspiration if I want to produce inspired stories and cultures!
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 11:35:46 PM »
Because either you do it, or we'll ruin your campaign by not having any fun in it, and joining hands against you. And when you step down, one of the other three players who've DMed longer than you have will take up the role. Truth be told, I may not even be running Savage Tides because three of them want an evil campaign so badly that they may very well ask me to stop aside next cycle so they can bring on the carnage and destruction. I've agreed to do that should it happen.

I don't handle them delicately. I just make it so I'm not as replaceable as they make me out to be. It's not my house. We're not close friends. I'm not the only one who's got lots of gaming material. I'm essentially the sperm donor, and that's about it. I just make myself out to be glorified and willing to compromise so everyone has fun.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 01:51:56 AM »
That was about as good a handling as could have been done.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 05:30:57 AM »
Because either you do it, or we'll ruin your campaign by not having any fun in it, and joining hands against you. And when you step down, one of the other three players who've DMed longer than you have will take up the role. Truth be told, I may not even be running Savage Tides because three of them want an evil campaign so badly that they may very well ask me to stop aside next cycle so they can bring on the carnage and destruction. I've agreed to do that should it happen.
Out of curiosity, will you be steping in as a player if another is the DM for the evil campaign?

I don't handle them delicately. I just make it so I'm not as replaceable as they make me out to be. It's not my house. We're not close friends. I'm not the only one who's got lots of gaming material.
I feel yah, finding good RL groups to play isn't easy. It's hard enough to find other people knowledgeable in D&D and geting them all togheter in a regular schedule, let alone making sure they all want the same kind of campaign.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 09:25:49 AM »
As a general rule now, if I get a campaign idea in my head, I'll pitch it to my players and see if they like the idea. If they don't want that type of game, I'm not going to waste my time fleshing it out. It just saves me time and headache, and hopefully results in a game they'd like to play.

Although, I've never run very large groups. five players is the largest I've run, and three was pretty standard. For the past three years, I haven't run anything other than one or two player games. This makes it a lot easier to get a consensus.
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 09:27:58 AM »
" Why? Because they all want to be CN with evil tendencies.
I despise those kind of players. How old are these guys?

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 09:52:53 AM »
You have a tough lot to deal with KV. Just keep in mind a few things. This isn't a democracy it is a DMtatotship. If they want to play the type of game you aren't willing to run then don't run for them. I know how much it sucks not being able to game but no gaming is better than struggling with douchbags. From the sounds of it these guys really do need some mental health help. I just don't think you will ever be happy with this group, behind the screen or in front of it. They will play their evil characters no matter what you say because they are assholes. My old group had a player just like that and after years of trying different solution we just kicked them out and refused to even tell them when we were playing a game. That was the only thing that fixed the problem.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »
We run things the way RobbyPants does.  And, I've had my fair share of campaign and character ideas shot down, and shot down a few on my own. 

@the OP, it sounds like your players are either children, or more charitably need to be blow off some steam.  Maybe someone will DM a mayhem-laden 3 session bender for them to get it out of their system? 

I think there was room for compromise -- one guy could have played an offspring of his current character while no one else did.  But, there's no real way to run a game for homicidal maniacs on the rampage -- no plot will hold together for long.

On a brighter note, I'm a fan of Savage Tides.  We're playing another session of it tomorrow, in fact, though my DM has buffed up some of the encounters, though some she didn't have to.  I also like a lot of the little touches the adventures give to the setting.

Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 08:06:43 PM »
@ oslecamo -- Depending on the campaign, and what we're allowed to be (NE, CE, or LE), I may or may not. I'm fine with a LE group. It's CE and NE that I won't be apart of. Even if he allows evil in the Friday games, that DM refuses to let you be NE because that kind of evil basically has no soul, and he knows that at least LE and CE will work with other members of the party if it suits their own goals. There's nothing more chaotic than helping the good guys, after all.
I live in small town, and have already been kicked out of two groups that I didn't see eye to eye with. My options are limited.

@ RobbyPants -- The problem was they had originally been fine with the idea. Somewhere along this campaign though they decided on their own that it was actually a bad idea, and opted for a change.
I'm used to groups that are around 4-5 people. I like having more people involved because some people tend to not show up, or be unavailable.

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@ archangel.arcanis -- I always go with democracy because DMtatorship gets you overthrown rather quickly if you don't have supporters. I've experienced both sides of the fence twice already. If someone has a louder voice than you, and is more charismatic, or even has contacts than you, you're done. As I've said on the old board, until I came to the Friday game, as bad as it can be sometimes, it'd been three years since I'd last gamed. Groups can be very fickle, and most gamers don't even do pen and paper anymore. A couple of groups I used to know disbanded after WOW and DDO came out because they no longer have to think about the campaigns. They just grind. I agree that these guys need mental help. Of course the same can be said about every group I've ever been in. And I do mean ever. This includes ones in different cities that I only joined for a single session. They will likely still play their evil characters, but they've agreed to not do it in my campaign. They'll wait for the other game to restart and they'll do it there, or they run their own.

@ Unbeliever -- I think everyone wants to blow off some steam when they game. It's partly why we do it. It's escapism. No one really enjoys their life completely that they don't want to lose themselves in something.
There was originally some compromise to have only one person play a descendant, but I decided to just start from scratch. What they wanted to do would change my current world too much, and I had already set specific things up to stop NPCs who acted like how the players wanted to. Every inn has a fire extinguisher (I made that a rule of mine after being in one group with a LE necromancer/pyromancer that loved to burn down the buildings he owed money to then charm the group to go back into it to go get his stuff that he didn't have in there in the first place and laugh as we all burned to death and DM allowed this because they were best fistbumping bros), and there's a world law enforcement group called the Shek Pevar (taken from the Harnworld game) who are anti-mages and witch hunters who bounty hunt any and all people who abuse their magic (you'd bet I'd have them hunt down the PCs after the first dozen burnings and grenade launches on innocents). No, it's better just to make a throw away world that can be destroyed, and have no real future that I can both blow up at our leisure while I stick it to them. :chairhit
A friend of mine actually tried to run a normal game, but the party ended up becoming evil, and killing everyone in the town. She got fed up with the group, and after they burned down the churches, had each of the deities show up and personally send each and every one of them to hell. They cried foul, she told them off, left the gaming hall it was being held at, and quit gaming altogether. I don't want to get to that point.
Last campaign was Savage Tides, and we had a blast. The DM may have buffed things up a bit too much for us from time to time, but we managed overall.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 09:11:50 PM »
There's always PbP.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 09:21:50 PM »
Meh. I'm going to buck the trend here, and say run the evil campaign. In my experience, they usually implode on their own quite fast, anyway (PCs killing each other, bringing the wrath of the king/town guard/heroes/etc on them). Then, when they've gotten it out of their system, you can go back and pitch your original game idea to them, and they might not be as resistant to it.

Evil games are at least as open to railroading, anyway. Have them be minions of an evil empire/dictator/lich king/whatever. If they don't do what he says, he will gut them without thinking twice. And they can't run to the police/town guard/heroes to beg for protection, either.

Evil fights evil as much as they fight good, anyway. Rival gangs, etc.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 01:48:37 AM »
There's always PbP.
I tried that. Doesn't go very well.

@ phaedrusxy -- Not true. Anyone I've talked to who's done one actually almost never fights other evil unless they're forced to by the DM. I'm evil. You're evil. You're doing your thing. I'm doing mine. If we're not stepping on each other, why are we fighting? What's the reasoning? I didn't provoke you. You're just doing it because the DM's making you, and no other reason other than a cop out.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 01:54:50 AM »
Quote
I tried that. Doesn't go very well.
Try again.

Quote
@ phaedrusxy -- Not true. Anyone I've talked to who's done one actually almost never fights other evil unless they're forced to by the DM. I'm evil. You're evil. You're doing your thing. I'm doing mine. If we're not stepping on each other, why are we fighting? What's the reasoning? I didn't provoke you. You're just doing it because the DM's making you, and no other reason other than a cop out.
You got it backwards. Evil players don't have a reason to not to backstab each other. The DM (or the metagame) is most often the only reason the PCs even work together.
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 01:56:14 AM »
You got it backwards. Evil players don't have a reason to not to backstab each other. The DM (or the metagame) is most often the only reason the PCs even work together.
Not according to the players I've talked to, and enjoy evil campaigns. Granted it really only works if you're of the same alignment. A group and LE and CE don't necessarily get along too well.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2011, 02:16:56 AM »
Quote
Granted it really only works if you're of the same alignment.
Not even then. And the players you talked to are a minority. Evil alignment is all about doing things you can't normally do, be it murdering children, raping women, destroying towns, desecrating holy sites or PvPing. Evil characters care only about themselves and their business and do whatever it takes to get what they want. That isn't something that helps teamwork, quite contrary actually, no matter if they're LE, NE or CE.
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Offline SneeR

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2011, 02:32:01 AM »
Quote
Granted it really only works if you're of the same alignment.
Not even then. And the players you talked to are a minority. Evil alignment is all about doing things you can't normally do, be it murdering children, raping women, destroying towns, desecrating holy sites or PvPing. Evil characters care only about themselves and their business and do whatever it takes to get what they want. That isn't something that helps teamwork, quite contrary actually, no matter if they're LE, NE or CE.

I have to wholeheartedly step behind this statement.
Having DMed an evil campaign, I expected my players to maybe have some campy evil fun. Then they started killing vendors and stealing their stuff, using the inordinate gains in WBL (with almost an entire magic shop on their backs, mind you) to kill all the law enforcement in the land, then venture out into the wildlands to see how they could light things on fire. If the game hadn't devolved into me sighing and asking if they were serious with each move they made before I up and quit, I'm sure they would have raided everything in the entire world and burned it to the ground before getting started on alternate planes.

Keep in mind that this started out as a "light evil/evil-tendency-neutral" game. They actually saved little girls in the beginning because they felt guilty, only to stab a bum a few minutes later...
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Offline kevin video

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Re: Players Have Say, DM Should Too
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2011, 02:33:30 AM »
Keep in mind that this started out as a "light evil/evil-tendency-neutral" game. They actually saved little girls in the beginning because they felt guilty, only to stab a bum a few minutes later...
This is why I don't want to run these kinds of games because I know that these particular players will end up doing that.
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