Author Topic: Warlock - Expert advice needed.  (Read 31723 times)

Offline cvar

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2012, 04:53:58 PM »
Quote from: Silveron
HA!!!! Your funny. I read it, 4 other guides, some that say contradictory things (like useing a soulmeld to counter con dmg instead of binder or useing binder feat instead of takeing level), several sections in too many books about other classes suggested and prestige classes, feats, invocations.... Its all a lovely mixed up jumble of info in my head. I am sorry if your really Thinblade and your insulted I do not know your guide by heart.

Not contradictory, just different ways of doing the same thing, which is to mitigate the con damage you take from hellfire warlock spam.  Soulmelds should work, but a DM could interpret it to be that you're "immune" to the con damage and thus can't use the hellfire abilities.  It's why I suggested taking a level of binder to get the vestige.  That regens the damage, but doesn't block it.

Of course, you could just take the con damage!

You have a really open idea for a character so you're gonna get all kinds of suggestions.  It seems like it's always easier to work within extreme limitations than it is to work with all material available.  I get the feeling you want a ranged character (you choose Spear as an invocation), you've hinted at racial restrictions but haven't really told us what you have available.  Could you take a bit to really sit down and hammer out what you want your character to do and list any restrictions you have?
Does your group roll around with CoDzillas or do they think blaster wizards and monks are the most OP thing ever?  I'm sure somebody here could pump EB up to "It dies." levels, but if that's not appropriate for the game, there's no reason to do that much work.

Offline Solo

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »
The Shape Soulmeld feat is intended to get the Strongheart Vest, which reduces ability damage by 1. This makes you immune to the Hellfire Warlock's ability damage, but it does not make you immune to ability damage altogether, in the same way that Damage Reduction 1/- does not make you immune to damage altogether.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2012, 07:48:25 PM »
Get Aptitude for your EB, with the War Domain Organization capstone ;)

That can give you some ugly combos with other feats like Boomerang Daze or Snap Kick
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2012, 10:11:46 PM »
Ok as for soulmeld maybe I am not understanding it correctly, but from what I found someone posted this from 3.5 FAQ:

Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?
The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.


So that means it doesn't work right??? Not being sarcastic, never used soulmend before so do not know if there are other factors I am missing.

cvar - In afew posts I talked about useing Hengeyokai (sparrow) that NiteCyper suggested. I am not married to it but I like it cause its different, 0 level adjustment,  being able to be a little birdy who tosses hellfire lol, and with Multiform armor enhancement I can keep some magic items in effect no matter what form I shift to. With the 0 level adjustment, I also thought to look into a template to take on as well.

So, so far all I got is a warlock Hengeyokai and Spear shape soulds good. Not even sure what feats to take because different guides run down feats and say, this one or that one is no good, then they show builds useing the feats they just said are not worth takeing lol. Even worse they do not  say what ones are homebrew so that the feats do not really work for warlock at all like the one I read useing rapid shot. I was however planning to take a flaw or two to get to take afew more feats at first level. Just think of it a Fine size creature over 200ft away from you tossing EB, seems like it would be a big DC just to even see it to attack back.

I also got afew good magic items to get and mortalbane feat thanks to kitep.

I see the light of Eldritch Glaive for melee but I do not plan to be in melee if I can help it. With my group I see at at the very least one ranger and one druid who will most likely being useing The Book of Familiars rules to take animal companion feat several times as well as Noble Steeds rules for mounts. So there will be few melee characters as well as a whole herd of animals attacking melee.

I just want to try to get a constant To Hit bonus to EB as well as any way I can get more attacks or hit more targets hopefully without doing things like useing the cone blast effect that gives saves.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 10:32:24 PM by Silveron »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2012, 11:14:30 PM »
Ok as for soulmeld maybe I am not understanding it correctly, but from what I found someone posted this from 3.5 FAQ:

Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (MoI 89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s hellfire blast ability (FCII 90)?
The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it does not keep you safe from the costs of hellfire blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.


So that means it doesn't work right??? Not being sarcastic, never used soulmend before so do not know if there are other factors I am missing.

According to that answer, the Strongheart Vest wouldn't work because Hellfire Blast's Con damage isn't an attack, and supposedly the vest only works against attacks.  The full text of Strongheart Vest reads:

Quote from: Magic of Incarnum
The strongheart vest protects you from attacks that would reduce your ability scores. Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of 0.
For example, if you fail a saving throw against the poison of a monstrous centipede and would normally take 2 points of Dexterity damage from its poison, you take 1 point instead.
Ten rounds later, if you fail a second saving throw against the poison and would normally take 1 point of Dexterity damage, you take no Dexterity damage instead.
Essentia: Every point of essentia you invest in your strongheart vest further reduces ability damage by an additional point. For example, if you have 3 points of essentia invested in this soulmeld, you will subtract 4 points from any ability damage dealt to you.

The blue and bold parts are the main culprits.  The blue part is what the FAQ goes by, but the broader interpretation comes from the bolded part since it says quite clearly "Any time you would take ability damage..."

The FAQ clarified their intent with it, which is kind of annoying to be honest but understandable.


As far as what is homebrew or not, don't mix up homebrew with a poor understanding of the rules.  If someone said rapid shot works with EB, they are dead fucking wrong.  They either haven't read the rules or have no comprehended them.

Getting more EB at range is going to be tricky if you're playing by the book.  The Eldritch Disciple and Theurge prestige classes allow for combining of divine or arcane spells into EB, so there's that option, although their tricks typically make the EB a full round action which may not work so well.

With Hellfire you'll of course need a way to negate the Con damage, so a level in Binder seems necessary.  I'm rather inexperienced with binding so I can't give an exact build with that off the top of my head, but it shouldn't be too complicated.

I'll come back to this when I have more time.

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2012, 11:35:17 PM »
This took a long time to post, so I don't care about being swordsaged.

However, with 14 other characters/creatures besides me, flanking is covered.
Flanking doesn't apply to ranged attacks.

I am more interested in practical applications people have used with warlocks they have ran.
Ladies and mostly gents, I present to you Tleilaxu_Ghola and the Wall...of GLOOM!

With the 0 level adjustment, I also thought to look into a template to take on as well.
I don't know how compatible that the animal form is with templates.

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So, so far all I got is a warlock Hengeyokai and Spear shape soulds good. Not even sure what feats to take because different guides run down feats and say, this one or that one is no good, then they show builds useing the feats they just said are not worth takeing lol. Even worse they do not  say what ones are homebrew so that the feats do not really work for warlock at all like the one I read useing rapid shot. I was however planning to take a flaw or two to get to take afew more feats at first level.
I've never read a guide that didn't explicitly state the third-party origin of included homebrew content. Homebrew content in guides/handbooks is rare. Due to the ethos of (an) optimization (handbook), i.e. getting the most out of what is given, third-party is only presented when first-party options are exhausted. 

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« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 01:56:55 AM by NiteCyper »
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Offline snakeman830

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 11:35:35 PM »
Never go to FAQ for rules.  Ever.

More often than not, they directly contradict the rules and/or other responses given to the same question.  I forget who said it, but recently someone said "Then we could ask them three times, and whichever answer they gave twice, we know is wrong."
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Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »
Never go to FAQ for rules.  Ever.

More often than not, they directly contradict the rules and/or other responses given to the same question.  I forget who said it, but recently someone said "Then we could ask them three times, and whichever answer they gave twice, we know is wrong."

Reminds me of the crap concerning Flurry and TWF.  The FAQ lists it as working fine if the penalties are observed, yet in at least one place on their site they say TWF doesn't work at all with FoB.  I'll need to get out of the house to look at waybackmahcine for that thread talked about in the ENworld link there, but mostly just to see how screwed up they get even within the company.

Offline Solo

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2012, 12:03:04 AM »
Does that mean if you accidentally get some poison on yourself, Strongheart Vest would not offer any protection because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.
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Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2012, 12:32:36 AM »
Does that mean if you accidentally get some poison on yourself, Strongheart Vest would not offer any protection because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 01:57:33 AM by NiteCyper »
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Offline Silveron

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 08:03:09 AM »
However, with 14 other characters/creatures besides me, flanking is covered.
Flanking doesn't apply to ranged attacks.
I know, that was more for little bonus if I have to melee or fire EB close ranged with Point Blank Shot. That and, I think its called, Amulet of Teamwork it makes for nice melee +'s when I have to do it. Since I know in my group its rare for there not to be 3+ attackers on each monster.

With the 0 level adjustment, I also thought to look into a template to take on as well.
I don't know how compatible that the animal form is with templates.
Again not married to it but Dark seems abit helpful. +10ft all modes movment, Darkvision 60ft, Resistance to cold 10, super low light vision, hide in plane sight, hide +8 move silent +6 for +1 Level adjustment, I like the movement and darkvision alone are worth it and the resistance to cold is nice too.

I've never read a guide that didn't explicitly state the third-party origin of included homebrew content. Homebrew content in guides/handbooks is rare. Due to the ethos of (an) optimization (handbook), i.e. getting the most out of what is given, third-party is only presented when first-party options are exhausted.
Pick a search engine and search for D&D warlock. You get alot of trash posts and guides.

I don't care whether or not that you choose to be stealthy, but I do care for how that the validity and viability of the option is perceived and judged. It is important to me as someone who has engaged in little practicum, to understand the effectivity of what I preach.
It was like midnight when I posted so sorry for not scrolling back and giveing you credit for suggesting it. If you do scroll back you will see I did say I thought it was brilliant and I still do. Its just not the direction I wish to go with this character. Please do not feel bent out of shape over it. Since I get unlimited use of Flee the Scene and Walk Unseen I want to use that just because the most it will cost me is 1 feat, if I want to take Extra Invocation.

I'm not familiar with the ability to keep the Dexterity bonus to touch AC. Who has it?.
I might not be remembering this correctly I think it was actually you kept + AC boost to touch attacks and it was an armor enhancement. Sorry can't give source I spent 4 weeks going over all the books I could find, core and d20, to build armor for my tiefling Rogue/wizard. Sorry can't quote D&D by verse, I look for what I need at the time and discard the rest. Adding that to my armor didn't fit into my price range lol. However, if you have ever had a devious DM you can understand I plan contingency style to counted being thwarted by whatever can be dug up to counter me.
EDIT: Went to look on my tablet to see if I had any of my notes from my armor - Ghost ward P11 MIC + Magic Vestment = +10 to touch AC. - Crystal of Arrow Deflection p25 MIC worked with touch attacks too - Still not sure what one it was that allowed you to keep the magic + of the armor to touch AC but it was somewhere. My whole point is there are ways to up touch AC, items, spells, etc. So going into a game where the DM knows that target touch AC and that there are ways to make it higher, I just wanted to try to get a boost to it for whatever they think up.

I don't think that you realize all of the bonuses that the sparrow animal form provides. Fine size adds +8 to-hit and the form's 23 Dexterity adds +6 to ranged attacks. That's an effective racial bonus of +14. You're performing a TOUCH attack. Don't even get me started on the Hide bonuses. In light of all of this, you worry too much about accuracy.
You are 100% correct sir! I didn't think about the sparrow Dex at all. That does drastically change how pictured my accuracy being for the first few levels.


If you're still that worried about to-hit, check out the Dragonfire Adept standard class which is the sister-class to the Warlock, being the other main invoker standard class. The DfA's Breath Weapon, which fills the same role as the Eldritch Blast of attack schtick, requires no attack roll, instead functioning as an AoE effect that forces a Reflex save for half damage. Along with the Entangling Exhalation feat, it is said that this combo shall earn you the profound admiration of your peers and the ruination of thine foes. Yours now, for two easy installments of class and feat. The DfA also gets access to an invocation that can provide protection against your Breath Weapon's damage type for your team-mates.
Currently one in our group. This is partly want got me to want to try warlock for something different.

Oh forgot to add part about soulmeld. People already posting that they see why it can't be used now and other said to just ignore it lol. I had read over Binder class and it seems not that much of a pain to just be forced to taken 1 level in it to counter con drain.  Wording issues are nasty and can just cause a headache if you and DM are not on same page on it. This is also why I try to avoid homebrew.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 09:39:28 AM by Silveron »

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 05:51:10 PM »
Espousal of the legitimacy integrity of guides and handbooks.
Pick a search engine and search for D&D warlock. You get alot of trash posts and guides.
Now that I've tried, I wouldn't use that method to look for a Warlock 3.5e guide. The only thing that I found that was a link to a guide was 4e.
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Offline kitep

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 06:32:20 PM »
Off-hand, I don't remember any homebrew (talking about handbooks in general, not warlock ones in particular)

What I do remember is some rather favorable interpretation of RAW that would never fly in our group.

And obscure classes/feats/abilities in books our group doesn't have and so aren't allowed.

I guess I do remember some "this is up to your DM" comments.


Offline Silveron

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2012, 08:50:38 PM »
Now that I've tried, I wouldn't use that method to look for a Warlock 3.5e guide. The only thing that I found that was a link to a guide was 4e.

Thats the thing we use a mix of 3.0 and 3.5 in our group, core 3.5 but there are just so many d20 books with good stuff in them that are not updated to 3.5. So if there is something still listed in a 3.0 guide from one of theses books its ok for me to use.

Ok, here we go...

Race:  Hengeyokai (sparrow). Dark Template from Tome of Magic, Gives human form 40ft movement, hybrid form 30ft movement + 30ft fly, Sparrow form 20ft + 60ft fly, darkvision 60ft to all forms, resistance cold 10 all forms, hide in plain sight all forms, +8 hide +6 move silently all forms.

1st level: Feat - Obtain Familiar (not needed but I have plans for later for a nice one)
1st level: Flaw for extra feat - Feat: ????
1st level: Flaw for extra feat - Feat: ????

3rd level: Feat: - ??? maybe extra invocation.
 
6th Improved Familiar

9th level: Feat: ??? maybe extra invocation.

I am really not clear what feats to take. To prove I am not crazy (or at least to prove guides are confusing)...

Quote
Point Blank Shot: Mainly useful as a prerequisite for Precise Shot, it gives a +1 to hit and damage when within 30' (Complete Arcane is the source for using feats for Weapon-like effects). Without an item to increase your range, every Blast will have the added damage. ****

Thinblade note: It should be noted that there is a long-running and sometimes acrimonious debate regarding the usefulness of Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, based around the fact that your blasts are touch attacks, and sooner or later you’ll probably only be missing on an auto-fail. The usefullness of these two feats varies extremely between campaigns, builds, the average touch AC of your opponents, and fighting styles. Be warned, your mileage may vary.

Here is what I get out of that.... Take the feat/don't take the feat. Do not remember ever getting the -4 to hit for casting ray spells as wizard so do I even needs precise shot too????
It makes me feel like I am tring to get a straight answer from a politician. :banghead

So please can I get some clear cut suggestions on whats good to take. As I have said several times.. This is my 1st warlock I am not trying to make it walking death to all things, I just want it to be really good for my first one to get my feet wet playing warlock.

Offline xaotiq1

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2012, 09:26:41 PM »
Well, you'll not be able to get Obtain Familiar until 3rd Level. Extra Invocation isn't of use until 6th level. In regard to Point Blank & Precise Shot, I'd say get them at 1st level and then retrain them later, if that option is available.
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Offline kitep

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2012, 11:00:35 PM »
I don't think there's any super outstanding feat that's a must-have for warlocks.  The ones that come to mind are

Mortalbane
Spell Penetration - SR applies to your eldritch blast.  You usually don't run into monsters with SR until higher levels though.
Greater Spell Penetration
Extra Invocation
Ability Focus - but only if you take an invocation that allows a save
Quicken Spell Like Ability

Other possibilities are:

Point blank shot
Precise Shot
Weapon focus (EB)

Best thing is to see if retraining rules are allowed, so you're not stuck with a bad choice. If not, there's a psionic power called Psychic Reformation (I think) that allows you to edit your character.  You'd have to find a psionic to use it on you.



Offline kitep

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2012, 11:05:56 PM »
Race:  Hengeyokai (sparrow)
  :
  :
  :
1st level: Feat - Obtain Familiar (not needed but I have plans for later for a nice one)

Why am I picturing a bird with a cat stalking it?????


BTW, the Obtain Familiar feat has a prereq of arcane caster level 3rd

Offline cvar

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 01:47:13 AM »
Race:  Hengeyokai (sparrow). Dark Template from Tome of Magic, Gives human form 40ft movement, hybrid form 30ft movement + 30ft fly, Sparrow form 20ft + 60ft fly, darkvision 60ft to all forms, resistance cold 10 all forms, hide in plain sight all forms, +8 hide +6 move silently all forms.

1st level: Feat - Obtain Familiar (not needed but I have plans for later for a nice one)
1st level: Flaw for extra feat - Feat: ????
1st level: Flaw for extra feat - Feat: ????

3rd level: Feat: - ??? maybe extra invocation.
 
6th Improved Familiar

9th level: Feat: ??? maybe extra invocation.

So please can I get some clear cut suggestions on whats good to take. As I have said several times.. This is my 1st warlock I am not trying to make it walking death to all things, I just want it to be really good for my first one to get my feet wet playing warlock.

Warlock 1/Binder 1/Warlock x/Hellfire Warlock 3/Open

I don't have access to Fiendish Codex II (curses!), so I don't know what requirements there are for Hellfire Warlock(guide suggests it's just a blast shape) so I can't tell you a set level there.  Binder is good to take early as you can use any of the other first level vestiges for their bonuses (it might even be better to take it first depending on skillpoints/level and hit dice, double check that).  Another option is to simply talk to your DM and pull out Magic of Incarnum and dip the Incarnate for 2 levels.  You get more for that (and use the superior strongheart vest), but have to deal with Incarnum which I don't think I've seen anybody use ever.

1st -  Improved Initiative(or the Soulmeld feat if you want to stick with straight warlock and your DM doesn't veto the idea)
Flaw - Flyby Attack (Fantastic feat tucked away in the monster manual)
Flaw - Mortalbane (Eldritch Blast 5/day +2d6 damage to just about everything)
3 - Obtain Familiar (this is the earliest you can take this feat)
6 - Improved Familiar (Shine on you crazy diamond)
9 - Extra Invocation* (or mindsight if you decide to dip mindbender at this point, I'd consider it as you get bigger returns from Extra Invocation at 12th)

*This feat requires you to be able to cast Lesser Invocations anyway, so minimum level is 6 if you go straight warlock.  9 would be the earliest you could take it without delaying your familiar plans.  This would also only get you a least invocation, while 12th would get you another lesser.

I'd heavily reconsider choosing the spear invocation.  In my games at least, fighting at even 100' was pretty rare.  If you're games engage at that distance go for it though.  Summon Swarm(OH GOD BEES) or Baleful Utterance(The hell is a lock?) may be better early game choices.  Feel free to swap out any feats you don't like, and consider dipping Mindbender (and grabbing the feat Mindsight, you need to pick up the Charm invocation at some point) at 9th and push Extra Invocation back to 12th.  Improved Critical is another feat to consider though I think that is fairly high level for the warlock.

This should give you a very mobile warlock (move, shoot, move) with a solid blast (10d6 up to 12d6 5/day), that has a familiar (that can potentially use wands) and if you dip mindbender, is telepathic and nothing with an intelligence score 1 or higher can hide from you (within telepathy range).  And it has it's other spell like abilities for doing stuff not related to face blasting.

Offline Solo

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2012, 01:49:11 AM »
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Silveron

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Re: Warlock - Expert advice needed.
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2012, 03:57:55 AM »
OOPS! Ya kitep. I had ment to add Mortalbane in there but I forgot, I had ment to relook it up cause I couldn't remember if it had any Prerequisite. Since it does not I can get it at 1st level. Very nice.

cvar thank you. Flyby Attack would be great since I will have 60ft fly movement.

Actually I should of said Summom Familiar not Obtain, my bad.

There are two lovely little books for Familiars. The Book of Familiars and Encyclopaedia Arcane -  Familiars. With them any class can have an animal companion(not as good as if you were a druid) or familair. A rogue can bring their own shadow to life (not as undead shadow) to be a familiar perfect for a rogue or they could just pick a cat familiar to be a lookout or to sneak past traps for them etc. In Encyclopaedia Arcane -  Familiars you can set paths, for your familiars at a one time exp cost, so they are a little stronger. Such as if you pick Path of the Guardian, your familiar does not have half your hp, it has exact same as you do, and if you are with in 10ft of each other you can split damage you take between you and your familiar. Nice huh? Thats just one of the nice thing from those books.

Solo, sorry I didn't put class levels in but I had planned to do Warlock/Binder/Hellfire Warlock so far.

Oh cvar, thanks for suggestions for invocations too. I like spear but you are right I could be planning all this and the game my DM runs could be a dungeon crawl where I am never outside to make use of flying high over my foes where I am useing distance to keep me safe lol. What is so nice about invocations at least if I do screw up on them I can just change them out. I had thought to use kiteps idea and get a Rod of Eldritch Power or two, or three, or ~, to try to keep me balanced out as well. I was thinking of the same thing when it comes to Baleful Utterance lol, but I would of taken it anyways at some point since it just makes me think of one of my favorite movies, Dune.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 04:29:52 AM by Silveron »