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Handbooks & Resources => Handbook Discussion => Topic started by: Sobolev on January 21, 2012, 01:53:37 PM

Title: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on January 21, 2012, 01:53:37 PM
My Binder guide has begun, and can be found here. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.msg35442#msg35442)  Accepting all comments and criticisms.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Garryl on January 21, 2012, 04:23:22 PM
Quote
Purple: This option is perfect.  Practically custom made to benefit Sha'ir.  If you don't take this option, there should be a reason.

I know Sha'ir are fun and all, but I think you should focus on good options for Binders instead.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on January 21, 2012, 04:30:33 PM
Quote
Purple: This option is perfect.  Practically custom made to benefit Sha'ir.  If you don't take this option, there should be a reason.

I know Sha'ir are fun and all, but I think you should focus on good options for Binders instead.

Ha ha, I copied the formatting from the other one.  Lulz, fixed.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: 123456789blaaa on January 23, 2012, 02:18:03 PM
Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Bozwevial on January 23, 2012, 02:36:15 PM
Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?
The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on January 23, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?
The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: 123456789blaaa on January 23, 2012, 04:30:39 PM
Quote
The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

But wouldn't it be easier to transfer the guide instead of writing a new one?

Quote
The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.

Thier is a cleaned up version  here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235)
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on January 23, 2012, 05:31:55 PM
Quote
The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

But wouldn't it be easier to transfer the guide instead of writing a new one?

Quote
The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.

Thier is a cleaned up version  here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235)

I know, posted by me.  It's still organized weird, I thought there would be benefit in a more standard guide.  I can just port the old one if that's what people want.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 23, 2012, 06:07:36 PM
Please don't just port the old one!

I like how your new one is coming much better.  The old one was a bunch of compiled information put in some form of categorization and yet at the same time was incredibly uninformative for a handbook.

This new handbook is much more helpful.  Like skills.  Bam!  Right there, exactly which ones I need and how many to bind whoever I want.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: 123456789blaaa on January 23, 2012, 06:57:42 PM
Quote
I know, posted by me.

D'oh!  :banghead

Please don't just port the old one!

I like how your new one is coming much better.  The old one was a bunch of compiled information put in some form of categorization and yet at the same time was incredibly uninformative for a handbook.

This new handbook is much more helpful.  Like skills.  Bam!  Right there, exactly which ones I need and how many to bind whoever I want.

Now that i look at it.. yeah this new handbook is much better. Just thought i'd save you what i thought was unnecessary work.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 24, 2012, 10:47:50 PM
I disproved the infinite turns idea by RAW

RAI however, I believe it is what was intended and thus available for any reasonable game.

Keep in mind that it is one turn at a time and there is no want to 'hold the charges' so it is true infinite DMM only for things like extend.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Garryl on January 25, 2012, 12:51:51 PM
Not even Extend. DMM costs one more turn attempt than the adjustment, so the single turn attempt at a time that Tenebrous gives would only work for +0 level spell slot metamagic, which kind of defeats the purpose of DMM.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: StreamOfTheSky on January 25, 2012, 01:44:34 PM
It's infinite use of devotion feats that only cost one turn undead to re-use, though.

I think that's still broken and would never allow it, though.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Cagemarrow on January 31, 2012, 03:33:48 PM
Here are a couple of links that got added to the end of the last handbook before the end of the previous boards that people may find useful. I've recently gotten through with another project so I will be finishing up the summon monster lists again and adding some additional items to the plant materials based on suggestions made in the previous thread.

A Consolidated list of the Binder Vestiges, powers granted and bind dcs
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Byyz5iDSM5rdZDE0ZmIzN2YtNmVhMC00ZmQzLTk3NGMtNDA3MTExNDYwODg1&hl=en_US

Zceryll's Psedonatural Summon Monster List
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1qzF3oIZ73Iy6nalb1e3e2zAtniAqfPbdpsZs6nidkP0

Plant Material that a Djinni can create using its Permanent Major Creation
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aiyz5iDSM5rddG5Ud0NFeXFwUUxhLW9UNHZSNFd0aWc&hl=en_US

Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Thurbane on February 02, 2012, 08:27:05 PM
I might be missing something, but is there a section on recommended gear? If so, Veil of Allure for +2 DC to Cha based attacks.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on February 02, 2012, 11:16:36 PM
I might be missing something, but is there a section on recommended gear? If so, Veil of Allure for +2 DC to Cha based attacks.

There will be, though it doesn't exist yet.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Waazraath on February 18, 2012, 02:55:06 PM
To start: thnx for the work!I have some stuff, input, questions, and suggestions.

It's good that the binder got a handbook in a more structured format; but the old version by jameswilliamogle had a lot of information that was useful, on combo's, bloodline's, items, etc. I can imagine you won't include all of it, but wouldn't it be a good idea to port the entire version over to here as well? Would be a shame to see that info got lost if BG ever gets deleted.

Since you mention infinite out of combat healing pretty early in the handbook, it's worth mentioning also the feat healing devotion: for one turn undead attempt, you can give somebody fast healing. Combine with tenebrous, and you have another option for ... and yeah, it's the same abuse as is already mentioned in this discussion, but hell, it's RAW, and plenty of party's play at an optimization level where it's not that weird.

I noticed that you don't mention the semi-legal vestige 'green lady', from the path of worms adventure path, iirc. The link to it is: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1#9 Of course, it's not official wotc, but then again, when age of worms started, I think it was, so it's as close as legal as it gets.

If you mention it, it opens up a lot more possiblities for turn undead abuse; binding both the green lady and tenebrous gives 2 turn attempts ever 5 round, giving access to unlimited use of devotion feats that cost 2 turn attempts, possiblity for DMM-abuse for an anima mage cleric, etc. etc.

With a divine version of the anima cleric, also divine feats can be abused by tenebrous, I think especially about divine vigor (CW) and sacred healing (CD, hello again infinite out of combat healing)

As a race, I think it might be worth it to include dragonborn. The stats are ok for a binder (+2 con -2 dex), but even more important:
- the flying version is a way for a binder to gain permanent flight, what can't be done by it's class features
- the version with breath weapons synergizes really well with a version of the binder that focusses on breath weapons. Iirc, abilities given by vestiges don't work as requirement for feats; so normally, breath weapon feats are out of the question, but as a dragonborn, it's possible to get max breath, entangling exhalation, etc. etc., and it also gives a breath weapon, making it at low level possible to use two maximized entangling breaths in the first two rounds of combat

Finally, I'm wondering about the KotSS, wether it's as mandatory as the handbook suggests. Of course, it's good. But comparing binder 20 with binder 15 / KotSS, the differece is that binder 20 has:
-1 bab
-1 fort
+2 will
2 extra feats (bonus feat and didn't spend weapon focus on a weapon you won't use after gaining entry to KotSS anyway)
2 more pact augmentations
no med and heavy armor proficiency, no shield proficiency and no martial weapon proficiency
mind blank
no vestige power
no vestige protection (aura)
no vestige surge
no apotheosis

Weighing all that, against each other, the KotSS seems a little more attractive (barring abuse of outsider status, then KotSS is of course much more powerful). But not that much... and a major disadvantage of the KotSS is that it ties the character to a specific vestige... that comes at the cost of flexibility, which is a major point of playing a binder in the first place. So I understand why i's recommended as a strong option, but a 'must have'.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Sobolev on February 18, 2012, 08:23:14 PM
To start: thnx for the work!I have some stuff, input, questions, and suggestions.

It's good that the binder got a handbook in a more structured format; but the old version by jameswilliamogle had a lot of information that was useful, on combo's, bloodline's, items, etc. I can imagine you won't include all of it, but wouldn't it be a good idea to port the entire version over to here as well? Would be a shame to see that info got lost if BG ever gets deleted.

Since you mention infinite out of combat healing pretty early in the handbook, it's worth mentioning also the feat healing devotion: for one turn undead attempt, you can give somebody fast healing. Combine with tenebrous, and you have another option for ... and yeah, it's the same abuse as is already mentioned in this discussion, but hell, it's RAW, and plenty of party's play at an optimization level where it's not that weird.

I noticed that you don't mention the semi-legal vestige 'green lady', from the path of worms adventure path, iirc. The link to it is: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1#9 Of course, it's not official wotc, but then again, when age of worms started, I think it was, so it's as close as legal as it gets.

If you mention it, it opens up a lot more possiblities for turn undead abuse; binding both the green lady and tenebrous gives 2 turn attempts ever 5 round, giving access to unlimited use of devotion feats that cost 2 turn attempts, possiblity for DMM-abuse for an anima mage cleric, etc. etc.

With a divine version of the anima cleric, also divine feats can be abused by tenebrous, I think especially about divine vigor (CW) and sacred healing (CD, hello again infinite out of combat healing)

As a race, I think it might be worth it to include dragonborn. The stats are ok for a binder (+2 con -2 dex), but even more important:
- the flying version is a way for a binder to gain permanent flight, what can't be done by it's class features
- the version with breath weapons synergizes really well with a version of the binder that focusses on breath weapons. Iirc, abilities given by vestiges don't work as requirement for feats; so normally, breath weapon feats are out of the question, but as a dragonborn, it's possible to get max breath, entangling exhalation, etc. etc., and it also gives a breath weapon, making it at low level possible to use two maximized entangling breaths in the first two rounds of combat

Finally, I'm wondering about the KotSS, wether it's as mandatory as the handbook suggests. Of course, it's good. But comparing binder 20 with binder 15 / KotSS, the differece is that binder 20 has:
-1 bab
-1 fort
+2 will
2 extra feats (bonus feat and didn't spend weapon focus on a weapon you won't use after gaining entry to KotSS anyway)
2 more pact augmentations
no med and heavy armor proficiency, no shield proficiency and no martial weapon proficiency
mind blank
no vestige power
no vestige protection (aura)
no vestige surge
no apotheosis

Weighing all that, against each other, the KotSS seems a little more attractive (barring abuse of outsider status, then KotSS is of course much more powerful). But not that much... and a major disadvantage of the KotSS is that it ties the character to a specific vestige... that comes at the cost of flexibility, which is a major point of playing a binder in the first place. So I understand why i's recommended as a strong option, but a 'must have'.

I will post some of the things from the old book, but likely not all.  I have no opinion about porting it over.  I'm going to refrain from just copying many of the combos because they either don't work as advertised, or don't actually combine in a particularly powerful way.

I actually do mention the Green Lady, though not by name, I referred to it as "That homebrew vestige by James Jacobs".  Personally I think it's crazy overpowered, combining the abilities of a level 4 Vestige, a level 3 Vestige, and MORE ABILITIES, all in a level 2 that you can start the game with.  On top of all the nonsense turn undead is doing for you at level 1 (as good or better than its doing for a Cleric since your Cha is probably at least as high), you also have access to a level 1 spell, so just pick color spray or something.  I think the whole thing is actually an incredibly impressive display of why NOT to allow homebrew, even when it's pseudo-official.

I will mention Dragonborns, you make a good point there.  Thanks.

As for KotSS, if we ignore for a moment the Binder bonus feat, which are crazily restrictive, you are left with the most important parts being you are down a feat (the one you used on Weapon Focus to get in) and Mind Blank lost, in exchange for the various parts of KotSS, and Medium, Heavy, Shield and Martial Weapon Proficiences (Probably worth the one feat).  So Mind Blank, or the ability to use Zceryll two times in a row immediately?
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Waazraath on February 19, 2012, 08:07:03 AM
Ah, I missed your reference to the Green Lady, indeed. I don't know if I agree with you though... yes it's good, but lolOP? Especially without devotion feat abuse, I think it's good, but not too OP, after all, gift of magic isn't that great, it's not like Karsus is recommended as a very good vestige because of that. And compared with Zceryll??

As for the KotSS, fair enough, usually we don't play with online vestiges anyway, so 2 times in a row using Zceryll could be worth it. If you use online vestiges, you probly are always bound to it anyway. But for the rest? Armor, shield and weapon proficiencies are nice, but no more then that at that point in the game, it doen't make that much difference anymore (KotSS with Zceryll entry level would be 11). And you forget the 2 pact augmentations, at that point (imho) probably +2 on saves, what would give binder 20 +1 fort, +2 ref and +4 will compared with the binder/KotSS. Again, KotSS is very good, but (in any case without the online vestiges) I wouldn't consider it mandatory, also because it limits flexiblity.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Shadowhunter on March 07, 2012, 12:50:18 AM
A useful link for a document I stumbled upon years ago and put up on Scribd:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: snakeman830 on March 08, 2012, 10:39:42 AM
I do believe that KoSS does not force you to bind a specific vestige (Tenebrous Apostate and Scion of Dantallion do, however), it just gives nice bonuses to your specific vestige.  It doesn't penalize you for not binding your chosen vestige.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Waazraath on March 13, 2012, 02:26:01 PM
I do believe that KoSS does not force you to bind a specific vestige (Tenebrous Apostate and Scion of Dantallion do, however), it just gives nice bonuses to your specific vestige.  It doesn't penalize you for not binding your chosen vestige.

Truth, but then you'll lose acces to all the class features....
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Shadowhunter on April 10, 2012, 02:34:59 PM
I think Nymph's Kiss from Book of Exalted Deeds is a feat worth mentioning. It forces you to be very good and have an "intimate relationship" with some kind of good-aligned Fae. Oh no. :rolleyes

What it gives are 1 skill point per level, +1 bonus to saves against Spells and Spell-like abilities and +2 circumstance bonus to all Charisma-based checks. Also Fey consider you Fey, not mortal.

So more skill points, a bonus to saves against one of the most important things to have good saves against and a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Use Magic Device and Binding checks?
Yes please.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: 123456789blaaa on February 12, 2013, 06:36:41 PM
Binder is my favorite entry into the Fiend of Possesion PRC because of its simplicity. With most of the other entry classes you need to jump through hoops in order to use their features. Binder however gives all supernatural abilities which are usable when possessing someone. Both classes also key of Cha. Here's a build from 339:

Quote
Here's a little tidbit for evil Binders that really wanna make those Witch Hunters mad.

Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 + Shape Soulmeld: Planar Chausible = Will Save +5 + Outsider Type + Evil Subtype = Fiend of Possession

An example build (I'll call it the "Master of Souls") would be...
Binder 6/ KotSS 5/ Fiend of Possession 6/ Binder 7-9

EBL 14 (16 with feat) will allow access to 7th level Vestiges
BAB +14
All the FoP goodies (Ethereal at will, Possession, ect.)
Cha Synergy (all the FoP abilities are Cha based Supernatural Abilities)

Skills: Hide 6 (Cross-class), Knowledge: Arcana 6
Feats: Improved Binding, Weapon Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Planar Chausible), Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, Ability Focus (Possession), Split Chakra, Ignore Special Requirements, Sudden Ability Focus

[edit]
How to maximize your Possess Creature save DC...

Base Possession save DC = 10 + FoP level + Cha Bonus = 28


Veil of Allure (+2) [14k gp Sandstorm]
Ability Focus: Possession (+2)
Sudden Ability Focus (+2)
Chupoclops's Aura of Despair (-2 to other's saves when Chupoclops is bound)
Focalor's Aura of Sadness (-2 to other's saves when Focalor is bound)

For a total effective Possess Creature save DC of 36 (38 once per day)

Shape Soulmeld for gaining the [Evil] subtype doesn't work but their are plenty of other ways to get it.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: wotmaniac on March 29, 2014, 08:33:43 AM
(http://forums.crackberry.com/attachments/news-rumors-f40/179809d1373210666t-apple-going-down-billions-tax-fraud-thread-necromancy.png)

Yeah, you're welcome.

But seriously .....
This is pretty much the first time I've had reason to research Binders (which explains why I'm just now getting to this) -- so I have one simple question that I need answered:
Why in the blue hell is Skilled Pact Making (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-magic--89/skilled-pact-making--2639/) not on the list of recommended feats?  Seriously -- +4 to binding checks?  available as your level-4 bonus feat (can take as level-3 feat if multiclassed)?  Especially if you're taking Improved Binding.  I feel like I can't sign up for this feat fast enough.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: linklord231 on March 29, 2014, 12:20:15 PM
Why would you want to use a feat (even a bonus one) on making your binding checks more likely to succeed? Passing a binding check does 2 things, neither of which are extremely important. It makes it so that you can suppress a sign, and can ignore their influence. I've only ever had to suppress a sign twice, and I regularly respect the influences even when iI make a good pact.

To me at least, making a good pact is just a "hey, neat" thing.
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: wotmaniac on March 29, 2014, 03:00:58 PM
Hmmmm.
Having never played a binder (or even seen one on play) ..... failing your binding check, while it may make for some potentially interesting roleplaying situations (which in and of itself could be pretty cool), seems like it could become quite annoying. 
This may be the "abused player" in me speaking, but I can totally see a DM using a failed binder check as an excuse to seriously fuck with you (+ collateral damage to the rest of the party) -- you know, for the lolz.

So, I take it that I am to believe that there's not really a need to be that kind of "DM-proofed"?
(I know -- "find a new DM", right?  Sorry, non-fuck-with-you DMs are pretty slim pickings 'round here.)
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Nifft on October 09, 2017, 07:05:06 PM
Just FYI the image host you used isn't working any more.

(https://i.imgur.com/p34aRp1.png)
Title: Re: The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion
Post by: Stratovarius on March 25, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
Well aware this is a hell of a necropost, but seems unusual to have a Binder handbook that doesn't discuss Karsite as a potential class for Binders.