Author Topic: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards  (Read 167697 times)

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #140 on: October 21, 2017, 08:30:00 PM »
Osle, we're optimizers. We do 1-level-PrC-dips sometimes for the whole point of making an entire build out of them. I honestly do not understand why you find it that weird, and it's not particularly relevant to me (all the casting I'm advancing is from my base class anyway); I was asking because if that was actually a rule in the system I'd never heard of it before. The almost entirety of 3.5 builds that included SC were predicated on it offering its own base spellcasting for shenanigans, so...

I'm going to assume those have different DCs and roll for all of them, cuz the only Knowledges in my sheet are Arcana and Religion. (Why the fuck did I put in religion? It's not like undead are a thing in PS...)
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #141 on: October 21, 2017, 11:11:10 PM »
Maybe religion helps with Dark Falz? I know not.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #142 on: October 22, 2017, 12:35:56 AM »
Osle, we're optimizers. We do 1-level-PrC-dips sometimes for the whole point of making an entire build out of them. I honestly do not understand why you find it that weird, and it's not particularly relevant to me (all the casting I'm advancing is from my base class anyway); I was asking because if that was actually a rule in the system I'd never heard of it before. The almost entirety of 3.5 builds that included SC were predicated on it offering its own base spellcasting for shenanigans, so...
As DM I need to put some limit in the optimization. I already houseruled limits for shadowcraft mage and spell disks shenigans after all.

I'm going to assume those have different DCs and roll for all of them, cuz the only Knowledges in my sheet are Arcana and Religion. (Why the fuck did I put in religion?

You'll need to roll higher then.

Oh, and I guess Katherine can also roll knowledge/sense motive if she wants/can.

It's not like undead are a thing in PS...)

Actually the first four PS games had zombies and specters and whatnot. PSIV even has a whole village falling to zombie apocalypse. Darkers kinda took that role in the online games.

You just didn't happen to go explore any ruins in this game yet. :p

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #143 on: October 22, 2017, 01:22:16 AM »
Now I just need to remember what metal I wanted. Oh well.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #144 on: October 22, 2017, 03:13:32 AM »

Oh, and I guess Katherine can also roll knowledge/sense motive if she wants/can.

WELL I GUESS  :shrug

I don't have those skills so I'ma just keep myself distracted with the wonderful banter~
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 03:17:24 AM by ketaro »

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #145 on: October 22, 2017, 08:35:08 AM »

Oh, and I guess Katherine can also roll knowledge/sense motive if she wants/can.

WELL I GUESS  :shrug

I don't have those skills so I'ma just keep myself distracted with the wonderful banter~
I GUESS IT'S UP TO BAHA TO SAVE THE DAY SINCE EVERYBODY FORGOT ABOUT BAHA
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #146 on: October 22, 2017, 12:44:15 PM »
You're pretty sure that the point of a prestige class is for you to abandon it as soon as possible yet still progress its main benefit with another prestige class?
Yeah, I am. The existence of PrCs prove the intent that you shouldn't take more than 25% of a Class and can expect another Class advance most of it's Features.

-Sublime chord is a prestige class and thus its unique spellcasting cannot be advanced by other prestige classes that advance basic classes spellcasting.
Not a thing and Spelldancer gives +1 to existing class, while most others simply give +1 to previous class, so as a specific rule it doesn't care about any particular class's made up titles but advances it anyway (which also answers Kuro's question). And it didn't bother you a few days ago either.

Well, I suppose I could apply Spelldancer to Monster of Legend, then my spellcasting would be HD + 3 and I'd have 8th level Spells and getting 9ths at level fifteen.

Osle, we're optimizers.
In an intended to be highly optimized fast-leveling game and all that's really being optimized here is keeping the Spellcasting & Atomic powers I've already been using in in this four year old game while trying to move to a Real Robot. So I guess Osl is trying to say changing from a Super Robot to Real Robot is too much as he keeps trying to nerf the combinations used to do it.

Offline Anomander

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #147 on: October 22, 2017, 05:13:57 PM »
Quote
Well, I suppose I could apply Spelldancer to Monster of Legend, then my spellcasting would be HD + 3 and I'd have 8th level Spells and getting 9ths at level fifteen.
Minor point but I'm pretty sure Monster of Legend's Saga casting wouldn't benefit from it. Because its mechanism is entirely dependent on HD, so adding an extra class level to it by progressing that casting with a prestige class wouldn't do anything. Because the Saga doesn't care about the effective casting class level, only about HD, and increasing the casting class level doesn't change your effective HD.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #148 on: October 22, 2017, 07:35:41 PM »
You're pretty sure that the point of a prestige class is for you to abandon it as soon as possible yet still progress its main benefit with another prestige class?
Yeah, I am. The existence of PrCs prove the intent that you shouldn't take more than 25% of a Class and can expect another Class advance most of it's Features.
Only for spellcasters, and even then for casters with other significant stuff like druids there is a single prc that advances all their nice stuff (and it's rightly considered one of the most borked prcs in existence).

Even then the prc itself is something you want to take like shadowcraft mage and Incantrix. If you then can also dump the prc, screw that noise.

Not a thing and Spelldancer gives +1 to existing class, while most others simply give +1 to previous class
Ah, thank you for the clarification. Spelldancer's banned then, as well as any other prc that gives +1 in the same way and I may've missed.

And it didn't bother you a few days ago either.
I'm pointing out problems as I find them. Your formatting doesn't help much.


Osle, we're optimizers.
In an intended to be highly optimized fast-leveling game and all that's really being optimized here is keeping the Spellcasting & Atomic powers I've already been using in in this four year old game while trying to move to a Real Robot. So I guess Osl is trying to say changing from a Super Robot to Real Robot is too much as he keeps trying to nerf the combinations used to do it.
You are trying to munchkin no less than three max-level casting progressions along god and dragon and royalty and other stuff. If you only want spellcasting and atomic powers, then just take nuclear dragon in one side and arcane pilot in the other and call it a day. Or real pilot X/arcane pilot Y.

Quote
Well, I suppose I could apply Spelldancer to Monster of Legend, then my spellcasting would be HD + 3 and I'd have 8th level Spells and getting 9ths at level fifteen.
Minor point but I'm pretty sure Monster of Legend's Saga casting wouldn't benefit from it. Because its mechanism is entirely dependent on HD, so adding an extra class level to it by progressing that casting with a prestige class wouldn't do anything. Because the Saga doesn't care about the effective casting class level, only about HD, and increasing the casting class level doesn't change your effective HD.
That is correct.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #149 on: October 22, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
Quote
Ah, thank you for the clarification. Spelldancer's banned then, as well as any other prc that gives +1 in the same way and I may've missed.

Not to take sides but doesn't that basically ban every spellcasting PrC then? -_-'

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #150 on: October 22, 2017, 08:26:41 PM »
Quote
Ah, thank you for the clarification. Spelldancer's banned then, as well as any other prc that gives +1 in the same way and I may've missed.

Not to take sides but doesn't that basically ban every spellcasting PrC then? -_-'

I think Osle was being specific about things that "advance class features", like Legacy Champion or bloodlines.

Otherwise yeah, that rules out every spellcasting PrC ever.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #151 on: October 22, 2017, 08:53:51 PM »
soro claimed spelldancer has different than normal advancement, so that's what's being banned.

Besides spelldancer demands at least 1/8th elven blood, which is incompatible with dragon, as dragons sexing other races produce half-dragons and draconic creatures and whatnot, not new fully fledged dragons.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 08:59:03 PM by oslecamo »

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2017, 09:27:37 PM »
I don't see elven blood in the PrC requirements.....Elves aren't even mentioned in the fluff.

On the other hand, the Spelldancer PrC seems to actually lack an explanation on how its spellcasting progression works outside of showing it on the table, something that isn't generally left out of most other spellcasting progressing PrCs...

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #153 on: October 22, 2017, 11:46:06 PM »
This version has the elven blood requirement. Which one are you checking?

Also lacks the usual descriptor of spell advancement though.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #154 on: October 22, 2017, 11:59:36 PM »
I looked at both dndtools and the Magic of Faerun book which both have the exact same text and neither has the Race related text in the link you provided.

Not to mention how do you even figure out what races fit into the "One-eighth elven blood" requirement? It could have just said Elves & Half-elves only.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 12:07:36 AM by ketaro »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2017, 12:31:50 AM »
I'm pretty sure somewhere out there is some feat for having 1/8th elf blood.

Anyway the class's basically Incantrix on steroids so banned anyway.

Offline ketaro

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2017, 01:41:26 AM »
I'm pretty sure there isn't and I literally can't find anything related to this 1/8th elven blood thing outside of realmshelp so I can only believe it to be an error after spending almost a couple hours on it. *shrugs*

Not contesting a ban tho.  :-\
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 01:45:27 AM by ketaro »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2017, 02:09:40 PM »
1. Only for spellcasters, and even then for casters with other significant stuff like druids there is a single prc that advances all their nice stuff
2. Ah, thank you for the clarification.
3. as dragons sexing other races produce half-dragons and draconic creatures and whatnot, not new fully fledged dragons.
4. You are trying to munchkin no less than three max-level casting progressions along god and dragon and royalty and other stuff.
1. Which one? Abolisher, Arcane Hierophant, Daggerspell Shaper, Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, Lion of Talisid, Planar Shepard or Moonspeaker Druid? I think you mean the Hierophant since its dual casting and Wild Shape.
2. It'd be a clarification if you know that's how all 3.0 Classes state their advancement, 3.5 used it as well but in general the text was changed to include the words "arcane", "divine" or "existing", and probably another half dozen things that I take for granted and don't feel like I needed to mention.
3. Fun fact, two pure-blood Elves get together and have a baby, the baby decides to take a level in Troll and loses all of it's Elfish heritage and becomes a Troll. The Troll screws a Dragon and has a child who chooses to take levels in Barghest losing all of it's Half-Troll/Half-Dragon heritage and becomes a Barghest.
4. Actually munchkin is cheating, like using incorrect sources, banning materials that's been in use for several years for not agreeing with a newly invented house rule built on false premises, and telling people to stop making accurate points about their imbalances/ambiguity/inaccuracies in one thread by using my apparently ending participation in another as leverage. Optimization is built on min/maxing, like in the case of Nuclear Dragon. Is losing 7th level Maneuvers, the +4 bonus that applies to virtually everything when overheating, and that +7 Constitution Bonus worth the cost of keeping within theme? I thought it was because I achieved the near result using a different combination and I assign value to everyone's time/effort, including my own.

I'm pointing out problems as I find them. Your formatting doesn't help much.
It's all there per MM1's style of stateblocks except all sources for every bonus and every Class Feature is included in one page. If you find it confusing I will try to match your style.

Annnd I updated Bahamut again. Like Steel Arcanist it's probably your very own creations of God & Real Pilot, but I got mixed up and I think my examples might have used Divine Pilot. Eh, not sure. You should probably read this other unrelated entry else where I'll try to link later. If you have any questions about ambiguity or if I have a system for the numbers produced, just dig through this discussion here and I'll try to post an answer once every few weeks or so to the best that I'm able to provided I don't feel like the question is rude or the person asking is being unruly.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 03:47:27 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2017, 12:13:31 AM »
1. Only for spellcasters, and even then for casters with other significant stuff like druids there is a single prc that advances all their nice stuff
2. Ah, thank you for the clarification.
3. as dragons sexing other races produce half-dragons and draconic creatures and whatnot, not new fully fledged dragons.
4. You are trying to munchkin no less than three max-level casting progressions along god and dragon and royalty and other stuff.
1. Which one? Abolisher, Arcane Hierophant, Daggerspell Shaper, Dispassionate Watcher of Chronepsis, Lion of Talisid, Planar Shepard or Moonspeaker Druid? I think you mean the Hierophant since its dual casting and Wild Shape.
2. It'd be a clarification if you know that's how all 3.0 Classes state their advancement, 3.5 used it as well but in general the text was changed to include the words "arcane", "divine" or "existing", and probably another half dozen things that I take for granted and don't feel like I needed to mention.
3. Fun fact, two pure-blood Elves get together and have a baby, the baby decides to take a level in Troll and loses all of it's Elfish heritage and becomes a Troll. The Troll screws a Dragon and has a child who chooses to take levels in Barghest losing all of it's Half-Troll/Half-Dragon heritage and becomes a Barghest.
4. Actually munchkin is cheating, like using incorrect sources, banning materials that's been in use for several years for not agreeing with a newly invented house rule built on false premises, and telling people to stop making accurate points about their imbalances/ambiguity/inaccuracies in one thread by using my apparently ending participation in another as leverage. Optimization is built on min/maxing, like in the case of Nuclear Dragon. Is losing 7th level Maneuvers, the +4 bonus that applies to virtually everything when overheating, and that +7 Constitution Bonus worth the cost of keeping within theme? I thought it was because I achieved the near result using a different combination and I assign value to everyone's time/effort, including my own.
1. Planar Shepard advances Wildshape and animal companion besides spellcasting.
2. This game is using 3.5 rules as base, not 3.0.
3. Indeed if you take a monster level without the blooded/hybrid feats, you no longer count as any other race for anything.
4. I'm pretty sure that banning things is one of the iconic DM class abilities since 1st edition. Including banning players that are actively being dickheads ooc and refuse to change their behaviour after a fair warning. However things like blatantly ignoring prerequisites and deciding that Machinery Warrior advances spellcasting indeed qualify as cheating.

I'm pointing out problems as I find them. Your formatting doesn't help much.
It's all there per MM1's style of stateblocks except all sources for every bonus and every Class Feature is included in one page. If you find it confusing I will try to match your style.

Annnd I updated Bahamut again. Like Steel Arcanist it's probably your very own creations of God & Real Pilot, but I got mixed up and I think my examples might have used Divine Pilot. Eh, not sure. You should probably read this other unrelated entry else where I'll try to link later. If you have any questions about ambiguity or if I have a system for the numbers produced, just dig through this discussion here and I'll try to post an answer once every few weeks or so to the best that I'm able to provided I don't feel like the question is rude or the person asking is being unruly.
Well at first glance you're missing a base race (my god class is a template/prc). And you have no maneuvers or spells or god abilities listed and at start you write "Probably God 14 / Real Pilot 14, so for example it spent four upgrade points for being a Divine Pilot on stuff." which is kinda weird since neither Real Pilot nor Divine Pilot grant upgrade points.

Erasing your own fluff seems quite petty at this point since I've been incorporating it in the campaign IC and only complaining about crunch problems.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: High End OOC thread IV-End of minmaxboards
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2017, 02:26:36 AM »
1. Planar Shepard advances Wildshape and animal companion besides spellcasting.
2. This game is using 3.5 rules as base, not 3.0.
3. Indeed if you take a monster level without the blooded/hybrid feats, you no longer count as any other race for anything.
4. I'm pretty sure that banning things is one of the iconic DM class abilities since 1st edition. Including banning players that are actively being dickheads ooc and refuse to change their behaviour after a fair warning. However things like blatantly ignoring prerequisites and deciding that Machinery Warrior advances spellcasting indeed qualify as cheating.
1. So does the Abolisher, Arcane Hierophant and Lion of Talisid and probably a couple more of those PrCs do too.
2. Obviously, but the point is it's entry, or a correct 3.5 interpretation, doesn't have a no-PrC limit.
4. I already admitted I was off in a level of Arcane Pilot's casting and that I would fix it. In fact I have an extended history of fixing the as they are brought up or as I find them my self , I've always tried to maintain a level of open transparency, and who can forget the PMs. Like in the first week of September I gave you an example of a Spelldancer advancing Sublime Chord asking if I could use it and you said it's fine provided I don't try to enter Sublime before 7th level and take it on the same Gestalt side.

But speaking of iconic DM abilities, since 1977 good DMs know not to change or overturn a published rule without a good, logical justification, they need to know the rules and not tell their players they don't know them and don't care to learn them, and DM/Player trust is born out of consistency rather then reneging permissions a month later and grinding the game to a halt to unfairly punish a player because you're being vindictive over other matters. In fact, the seventeen year official list of considerations before every rule change for 3.0/3.5 is to you ask your self why are you changing it, are you clear on what you are changing, how it impacts things, and will it make people happy or not with the latter requiring you to further ask your self if it's worth it.

Well at first glance you're missing a base race (my god class is a template/prc). And you have no maneuvers or spells or god abilities listed and at start you write "Probably God 14 / Real Pilot 14, so for example it spent four upgrade points for being a Divine Pilot on stuff." which is kinda weird since neither Real Pilot nor Divine Pilot grant upgrade points.
That's actually a joke about your Feat you still haven't fixed and a direct notation over current sheet inaccuracies as I work on changing them over. Like the previously asked for and allowed combination of Persisting Blink and Forceward together is depreciated by simply using Divine Dodge instead.

(click to show/hide)
Erasing your own fluff seems quite petty at this point since I've been incorporating it in the campaign IC and only complaining about crunch problems.
The fluff isn't really deleted. The Flavor spoiler also contained the spoilers that broke down every HD/BAB/Save increase, Skill Rank, and Maneuver choice by level. It was faster to wipe all of the text in the post and readd sections of it back in than comb through it. When I have time, as motivated as someone can be in the situation, I'll get around to changing it.

Edit - Got the Flavor repasted.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 02:32:11 AM by SorO_Lost »