Verold Reviews/Questions/Discussions

[EjoThims]

I opened a random one to see if I could comment. 

What do you want me to start with?

The exotic weapons are definitely the newest, but it looks like I did something with the PrCs. And the cosmology under history I definitely know doesn't exist on the forum copy, but otherwise I'm not entirely sure what parts are newer than the last time you might have looked at stuff 

[Nanshork]

I'll just start over then, it wouldn't be the first time I've done that with someone's homebrew.

So, where should I start?   

[EjoThims]

I'll just start over then, it wouldn't be the first time I've done that with someone's homebrew.

So, where should I start?   

Clans were the beginning lol

[Nanshork]

The Clans

I assume that these races are meant to be balanced against each other and not against normal D&D races?

Also, you've got a lot of "gain the effects of a feat".  Why not just grant bonus feats?

Boar
 - Why not just give them the Endurance feat and make a note that they can also sleep in heavy armor?
 - The boar Fighter 2 sub level feels a little strong. 
 - Boar Ardent has one mantle with three lists.  Are they a single mantle or are they actually three mantles?

Fox
 - Fox Sorcerer, why not grant addition class skills at first level?  Granting skills at higher levels always feels extremely awkward to me.

Ferret
 - Psionic Artificer makes me go bleh.  You're using the Complete Psionics nerf.

Raven
 - Dedicated research, why such a massive bonus?
 - Raven Wizard, lingering spell is extremely powerful at low levels.  Having spells at first level last 7 rounds instead of 1 is a gamechanger.

Crane
 - The crane racial features feel more powerful in comparison to everyone else.  Devotion feats + All In Good Order (which would effect spells like Dictum and Holy Word) + Zeal is too much.


Race stat balance concerns

(click to show/hide)

Your stat adjustments are all over the place.  Not just for the base races (we've got everything from bonuses/penalties evening out to -2 total, +2 total, +4 total, and +6 for the Crane), but also with the animal and hybrid forms.

Wolf
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Str   +2 Str
+4 Dex   +4 Dex
+2 Con   +4 Con
+2 NA   +4 NA

Bear   
Animal   Hybrid
+4 Str   +6 Str
+4 Con   +4 Con
+5 NA   +6 NA

Boar   
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Str   +4 Str
+6 Con   +6 Con
+6 NA   +8 NA

Viper
Animal   Hybrid
+6 Dex   +6 Dex
+3 NA   +2 Cha
           +2 Con
           +5 NA

Ferret   
Animal   Hybrid
+4 Dex   +6 Dex
+2 Int   +2 Int
+2 NA   +4 NA

Rat
Animal   Hybrid
+6 Dex   +6 Dex
+2 Con   +2 Cha
+3 NA   +2 Con
           +5 NA

Tiger   
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Dex   +4 Dex
+4 Str   +4 Str
+5 NA   +2 Con
           +2 Wis
           +6 NA

Raven
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Dex   +4 Dex
+2 Int   +6 Int
+2 Wis   +2 Wis
+2 NA   +4 NA

Coyote
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Str   +2 Str
+4 Dex   +4 Dex
+2 Wis   +4 Wis
+4 NA   +6 NA

Python
Animal   Hybrid
+2 Dex   +4 Dex
+4 Con   +4 Con
+2 Wis   +2 Wis
+4 NA   +2 Wis
           +6 NA

Crane
Animal   Hybrid
+6 Dex   +6 Dex
+3 NA   +2 Cha
           +2 Con
           +5 NA

[EjoThims]

The Clans

I assume that these races are meant to be balanced against each other and not against normal D&D races?

Very lol

Also, you've got a lot of "gain the effects of a feat".  Why not just grant bonus feats?

Any that don't actually grant the feat should be at least minor boosts over the feats, but enumerating the bonuses and listing that it filled prereqs took up less space than granting the feat and then explaining the differences. Also less to reference, and there's plenty of that Though yea, the Boar Endurance ended up back closer than it originally was, with only negatives versus the actual feat.

- Why not just give them the Endurance feat and make a note that they can also sleep in heavy armor?

It also loses the thirst benefit, but that was probably just transposition error when adding stuff back in later. Changed.

- The boar Fighter 2 sub level feels a little strong.

Its supposed to be, to draw them to the class even though they have no damage output stat boost as a race. Do you think the whole package is strong ENOUGH that other fighters are worthless? Or just that most melee-centric Boars will prefer a Fighter base?

- Boar Ardent has one mantle with three lists.  Are they a single mantle or are they actually three mantles?

One mantle that gains access to the extra lists as you level up.

Fox Sorcerer, why not grant addition class skills at first level?

Mostly to prevent dipping, but also because that's when illusions grant bonuses to those skills. And just switching their places seemed more awkward than changing the class skills late, because the restricted spells known gimmick would be meaningless at level 5.

Ferret
 - Psionic Artificer makes me go bleh.  You're using the Complete Psionics nerf.

The nerf is not mentioned directly either way, but is assumed, because it is written. Really though, the 3 together, with permanent durations, plus the 3 feats, should still outweigh the homunculus given up for them, even if using the nerf.

Raven
 - Dedicated research, why such a massive bonus?

There was a reason for it, at one time, that I can't quite recall. I think I had it as a higher base boost initially then switched it to scaling. Looking at it now its probably a too much when combined with archivist? 

Changed to scale three times as slow, because I still want them to accumulate more of a boost over others as they grow stronger. Should I maybe drop the initial down to +2 as well?

- Raven Wizard, lingering spell is extremely powerful at low levels.  Having spells at first level last 7 rounds instead of 1 is a gamechanger.

Hrm, for some reason I recall someone mentioning how weak they thought it was at one point, but you're right, its crazy right at 1st level. Capping it to level as well.

Crane
 - The crane racial features feel more powerful in comparison to everyone else.  Devotion feats + All In Good Order (which would effect spells like Dictum and Holy Word) + Zeal is too much.

You really think the choice between those two specific devotion feats is that strong?



And before I get into the stats and the reasons for them, out of curiosity, was that a random grab of clans or just the only ones whose non stat abilities you noticed possible trouble with? I DO understand there's a whole, whole lot there 

Your stat adjustments are all over the place.  Not just for the base races (we've got everything from bonuses/penalties evening out to -2 total, +2 total, +4 total, and +6 for the Crane), but also with the animal and hybrid forms.

That is deliberate, though not standard. I know it makes balancing more difficult, but I very, very much wanted numeric benefits NOT to come to the same total across all Clans and forms. How effective those stat boosts are to each Clan should come from their other granted abilities and their favored/sub-level class boosts, which is also a deliberate emphasis to reinforce caste ideal of the world. Part of it also comes from basing animal/hybrid form boosts off of the actual animal stat blocks, then making hybrid forms slightly better, and then backpedaling anything that seemed tooooo extreme.

Are there any you notice that seem counter to that ideal? Any Clans that would clearly make a superior X over the sub levels of another, because of their stats. Or any possible splatbook classes that would benefit TOO much from one particular Clan's combo?

Conversely, are there any for which a particular set of stat boosts seem not a large enough boost in light of their other abilities and sub levels?

[Nanshork]

With the feats, I meant things like the Fox racial ability of "Spell Focus: Any illusion a Fox casts has a +2 to the DC to resist or overcome."  Why not just say that the Fox gains Spell Focus: Illusion as a bonus feat?  The only reason not to would be if you want them to be able to grab Spell Focus for a stacking +2 on top of the racial ability.  There are a handful of things like that.


Boar Fighter 2 - this is definitely a case of "most melee boars will be fighters" rather than "most fighters will be boars".  Strength bonus is one of the main early features of the Barbarian, why be a barbarian when you can get the strength bonus and all the fighter stuff at the same time?  (I know that you overhauled both classes but I'm not motivated enough to go look at classes when we're still dealing with races )


Boar Ardent - I barely know anything about the ardent so I can't comment on the balance of this, I was just curious.


In my experience, when class skills are gained at higher levels they're usually ignored.  People plan out their skills at first level and then just jam skill points into those same skills at every level up unless they multi-class or gain a prestige class.  There are exceptions of course, but by the time the fox gains those class skills he'll either never put points into them or will have the make the hard decision to stop focusing on other skills so they can dump extra points into the new skills to max out ranks so they're not worthless.


On Ferret Psionic Artificer, the Ectopic Form feat means that you're using the Complete Psionic nerf.  I say bleh.  That's not a balance nitpick, just bleh.


Raven: Yes, massive knowledge bonuses are an issue when you can get in game mechanical bonuses out of them.  You don't even need archivist, Knowledge Devotion will suffice.  I think that the changes are good enough now.  The scaling definitely is (although I'd like you to specify that you round down with the scaling, I know D&D assumes rounding down but as people around here will tell you I'm picky).


Wizard Raven changes look good.


Crane: It's not the choice between the devotion feats.  Let me put it this way, we just discussed Raven.  Ravens get: minor skill bonuses, Knowledge bonuses, minor spell like abilities, and crafting bonuses.  Cranes get: moderate skill bonuses, more skill bonuses, treat evil=chaos for spells, bonus feats, and a second save against mind affecting spells.  Cranes get more useful racial features than any other race.  Cranes need to be toned down.



When I review things I don't write about the stuff that I don't have an issue with.  Sorry, I forgot to warn you since most people around here already knew that.  I didn't compare skill bonuses though between the races, that might need to be done.


I disagree with your stat mentality when you've got a range of -2 to +6.  That's eight points, that's a huge gap.  Off the top of my head, why would I want to be a Fox Favored Soul when I could be a Crane?  The stats are better, the racial abilities are way better.  Tiger Paladin vs Crane?  Crane.  I know I'm harping on the crane, it's just the biggest offender to me.

Right now the races are just too all over the place for me, although if you were using actual animal stat blocks as a starting point that would make sense, I had that issue when homebrewing a werebadger class. 

I feel like you could use some input from other people so you can know I'm not being a crazy person.  I'll see if I can grab a person or two.

[Garryl]

Hey, I'd forgotten about this.

Since the Verold races seem the currnt topic of discussion, I'm going to dive right in. This is the up-to-date link, right?

A quick skim of the racial ability score adjustments table. I haven't looked at any of the racial features or anything yet, so this is just an incomplete first impression.
- Wolf are outliers with their +1 LA, although if I remember correctly they were the special snowflake ones.
- The average looks to be about Pathfinder races, with a net stat adjustment of +2. There's a lot of variance, though, all the way from net -2 (boar, ferret) up to net +6 (crane). Boar looks particularly problematic, with a penalty to all 3 mental stats.
- Coyote is another oddity as the only non-wolf race to not have any stat penalties.
- Python seems strange to have favored class monk with its Wisdom penalty.
- Not a problem, just an oddity, that only one core class is missing among favored classes, the cleric, and only one non-core class shows up, the hexblade.
- Looks like the stat table doesn't actually match up to the actual stat adjustments the descriptions give. Boar has +4 Con, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, not +4 Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha. Haven't gone through them all yet.

Okay peeking at the actual races now.
- Okay, with animal and hybrid forms, there are tons of stat adjustments flying around. Any chance you could provide a table summarizing all of it?
- Tons of feat-like racial traits. I guess they're meant to stack with the actual feats they duplicate?

A quick peek at classes says you're using modified versions of every class. At this point you've gotten rid of pretty much every standard I'm familiar with that I could quickly compare things against. In order to evaluate the balance of anything in this context, I'd have to go through everything to get a sense of the actual context as a whole. In short, it's more work than I'm willing to put in. Sorry.

[EjoThims]

I feel like you could use some input from other people so you can know I'm not being a crazy person.  I'll see if I can grab a person or two.

Firstly, more input is always welcome. Secondly, we both you are, indeed, a crazy person

With the feats, I meant things like the Fox racial ability of "Spell Focus: Any illusion a Fox casts has a +2 to the DC to resist or overcome."  Why not just say that the Fox gains Spell Focus: Illusion as a bonus feat?

Ah! Because Spell Focus (Illusion) is only +1 and I wanted them to be stackable. Burning Trickster, the PrC Fox Sorcerers should be super good at, also has the actual feat as a prereq, forcing them to have a +3 total. It seems I forgot to change the placeholder name. Exactly the kind of reason I appreciate having more eyes again, especially from start...  Feext and flavored lol

Boar Fighter 2 - this is definitely a case of "most melee boars will be fighters" rather than "most fighters will be boars". Strength bonus is one of the main early features of the Barbarian, why be a barbarian when you can get the strength bonus and all the fighter stuff at the same time?  (I know that you overhauled both classes but I'm not motivated enough to go look at classes when we're still dealing with races )

Good, but when/if? you get around to classes, I'd definitely like to know if you still feel that choice is so definite. 

Boar Ardent - I barely know anything about the ardent so I can't comment on the balance of this, I was just curious.

I don't know them super well either, so it might be really off 

by the time the fox gains those class skills he'll either never put points into them or will have the make the hard decision to stop focusing on other skills so they can dump extra points into the new skills to max out ranks so they're not worthless.

Hm, the goal of turning them into class skills was to provide an option that they wouldn't be worthless, with only the spell's level as a bonus used untrained. Would maybe switching it to caster level and just dropping the class skill thing do it, perhaps? Kind of realizing now that even an 8 point range in the bonus from casting 1st vs 9th level spells isn't super impactful compared to skills invested if you chose to by the time you can cast the 9th level spells.

On Ferret Psionic Artificer, the Ectopic Form feat means that you're using the Complete Psionic nerf.  I say bleh.  That's not a balance nitpick, just bleh.

 

Though honestly didn't realize the feats necessitated the nerf lol

Crane: It's not the choice between the devotion feats.  Let me put it this way, we just discussed Raven.  Ravens get: minor skill bonuses, Knowledge bonuses, minor spell like abilities, and crafting bonuses.  Cranes get: moderate skill bonuses, more skill bonuses, treat evil=chaos for spells, bonus feats, and a second save against mind affecting spells.  Cranes get more useful racial features than any other race.  Cranes need to be toned down.

Kind of surprised to hear that, honestly. AiGO and Lawful Defender were added specifically to boost up the Crane because others felt it was so weak with the specific combination of skills and abilities (since other than Zeal and Spot, they are all non-combat abilities), and without much comment on it never thought those two boosted it that far up.

Would knocking off one of those two, between AiGO and Lawful Defender, bring it in line? Or do you really think the main problem with them is the stat boosts? I wouldn't be upset about taking Cha down to +2. Or maybe dropping the dex so both boosts are mental?

When I review things I don't write about the stuff that I don't have an issue with.

Same here, just wanted to verify with how much there all is 

Off the top of my head, why would I want to be a Fox Favored Soul when I could be a Crane?  The stats are better, the racial abilities are way better.  Tiger Paladin vs Crane?  Crane.

Really? Even with the sub levels you'd take Crane over Fox for Favored Soul?

I know I'm harping on the crane, it's just the biggest offender to me.

Its also the only (non LA) one that clocks in at +6 total, with three +4 totals, Raven, Coyote, and Tiger. Two -2 totals are Boar and Ferret.

More than anything, this is making me reconsider having those two negatives (and go ahead and knock Crane down to +4 as well, though I'm still wondering about whether to drop Cha or Dex)

Hey, I'd forgotten about this.

Pretty sure everyone assumed I had too 

This is the up-to-date link, right?

- Wolf are outliers with their +1 LA, although if I remember correctly they were the special snowflake ones.

Both correct

- Coyote is another oddity as the only non-wolf race to not have any stat penalties.
- Python seems strange to have favored class monk with its Wisdom penalty.
- Not a problem, just an oddity, that only one core class is missing among favored classes, the cleric, and only one non-core class shows up, the hexblade.

All deliberately odd, though hopefully the first two are also not problematic? But I think the choice for Python predates my changes to Monk even though the sub level abilities do not. Definitely something to adjust if Tiger Monk still beats out Python Monk in the reach AoO/grappler role its supposed to support, especially if going for Hybrid Master (which is why Hybrid Form neutralizes the Wis penalty )

Looks like the stat table doesn't actually match up to the actual stat adjustments the descriptions give. Boar has +4 Con, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, not +4 Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha. Haven't gone through them all yet.

How did I miss that... hmmm... I think I'll just go ahead and make it -2 Wis/-2 Cha. Which leaves Ferret as only -2 race, so let's get that fixed... Removing their Con penalty looks good.

Okay, with animal and hybrid forms, there are tons of stat adjustments flying around. Any chance you could provide a table summarizing all of it?

That's a good idea. I should do that. Probably won't be for a minute, but I definitely should do that. That is a great idea.

A quick peek at classes says you're using modified versions of every class. At this point you've gotten rid of pretty much every standard I'm familiar with that I could quickly compare things against. In order to evaluate the balance of anything in this context, I'd have to go through everything to get a sense of the actual context as a whole.

Yes, it has steadily grown massively huge.

In short, it's more work than I'm willing to put in. Sorry.

I completely understand 

Honestly, I am legitimately grateful for any pair of eyes even for a moment and appreciate the post; little details like the discrepancy on the Boar stat adjustments get noticed that way. 



OH! Wait! I just remembered why I have so many feat mimic abilities instead of granting them as bonus feats. I was being paranoid about Dark Chaos feat shuffling away racial traits. The concern does seem rather silly now though.

[Nanshork]

Too much to quote.


I'm not sure what the fix is for the Fox Sorcerer skill points thing right now, don't have the time to get super focused into it.  However I'm glad to see you're getting where I'm coming from. 

On Crane, your playtest group isn't made out of optimizers is it?  That would explain some of the opinions I'm hearing from them.  Zeal is the racial feature I'd drop.  That's a 10th level core Rogue class feature but significantly better (Yes, I know you're not using core rogue).  AIGO is why I'd pick Crane for any class that uses the cleric spell list, there's so many alignment specific spells there that it opens up.  I wouldn't call it abusable, but it's powerful.  Lawful Defender is probably on par with the Raven's spell-like abilities.  I should probably do a racial feature tabular comparison.

Let me know when you're done fiddling with the races, I know I'm still going to want to see the gap between then shortened when you're done. 

[EjoThims]

I'm not sure what the fix is for the Fox Sorcerer skill points thing right now

Think I'll go with CL for now then. Will scale the same, but with slightly lower total for no skill cost.

Zeal is the racial feature I'd drop.

Think that works. I'll save changes or removing the others until comparing them to other abilities.

Let me know when you're done fiddling with the races, I know I'm still going to want to see the gap between then shortened when you're done. 

With Ferret and Boar brought up to 0 total, and Crane losing Dex boost to drop to +4, that cuts the gap in half, but just shy of half of them are at +4, so the +0s still seem pretty behind... So let's move Bears up to +4 Str, drop the Wis penalty to Boars, up Ferrets to +4 Dex, and add -2 Str to Ravens. That leaves 3 +4s and the rest at +2. I almost think I want to raise at least one or two more up to +4, rather than bring them all down to +2 

But maybe that should depend on if the +4s are behind in abilities.

[Nanshork]

Like I said, let me know when you're done fiddling and I'll do a more comprehensive comparison.   

[EjoThims]

Like I said, let me know when you're done fiddling and I'll do a more comprehensive comparison.   

Think I'll leave it here for now, though I did also update everything to actually match the chart 

[Nanshork]

Well let me know when you want me to work some more on Verold.

[EjoThims]

Well let me know when you want me to work some more on Verold.

Whenever you have the time and patience   

[Nanshork]

Well let me know when you want me to work some more on Verold.

Whenever you have the time and patience   

I assumed from your last post that you didn't want to work on the races anymore.   

[EjoThims]

Well let me know when you want me to work some more on Verold.

Whenever you have the time and patience   

I assumed from your last post that you didn't want to work on the races anymore.   

Oh, just meant I wasn't gonna go back and forth on the stats any more, at least not before knowing if there's something else really lopsided in abilities that slipped through this far. 

[Nanshork]

Ahh, got it!  Time for more in depth analysis. 

First off, tiger is listed as "Tiger:" at the table up at the top.  Get rid of that punctuation. 

Basic things:
 - Wolf has Dominance listed in Hybrid form when it's a base racial trait which means it already applies to all forms.
 - Why not just give Bears the Improved Grapple feat?
 - Viper "Breath Weapon" isn't a breath weapon and so should be renamed to something like "Spit Poison".
 - I think that Rat should be size Small like Ferret is all the way down.  Don't adjust anything with the size change, just change the size.
 - Speaking of Ferret, give Ferret Scent.  It gains that as an animal, why not have it as a base racial trait?
 - Viper having a tiny animal form is an outlier, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
 - Why do Bear hybrids get 15 foot reach?  Reach from Large isn't enough??
 - Raven hybrid is larger than the base race, you can bump its land speed up to 30' to match Crane.


Let's Standardize your skill bonuses.  Most of your races have +4 to two skills (We'll leave wolf alone, it has +1 LA so an exception is okay).  Give Bear another skill to gain a bonus to.  Boar is fine without skill bonuses, it has an initiative bonus.  Bump Fox Sense Motive down to +4.  Give Viper an extra skill and take a skill away from Ferret (since I expect Ferret to keep Sleight of Hand give Viper whatever Ferret loses).  Get rid of the climb and swim bonuses for Rat, it'll gain those back in animal/hybrid form from having the climb and swim speeds.  Tiger needs to lose two skills.  Raven's skills can be bumped up to +4.  Python loses a skill.  Crane gets rid of Spot, it's already in Animal form and go ahead and put it in Hybrid form as well.

For Viper's Natural Performer, I'd bump it down to +4 and remove the bonus to the second Perform skill (or make the +4 go with Sing and Dance, no choices).  This will make it match up with similar abilities from Crane, Raven, Coyote, and Python.

Crane is the only race with scaling bonus feats.  Honestly I'd just find a non-devotion feat and have them get that instead.  Or remove the bonus feats for another generic ability (but not the one we already got rid of). 


Holy crap, we're so close to a total of +2 for all races for stats!  Tiger, Coyote, and Crane are the only outliers.  Honestly I'd just make everyone +2 total for completeness sake at this point.


On standardizing animal and hybrid form stats: we're going to do this.  First, decide if animal forms get +6 or +8 points total (honestly I'd say +6, that's most of them and it feels like not too much).  Then adjust accordingly.  As for hybrid form, almost all hybrid forms have +2 to one of the stats from animal form (even the Wolf!).  Please standardize on that as well.


On Natural Armor and Natural Weapons:
 - Why do hybrid bears lose their bite?
 - Why is there no progression for the boar natural weapon from animal to hybrid?
 - Why do some animals get a natural armor progression and others don't?  We'll fix that, with a progression of +2 because that's what most of them have.
 - Bump Bear animal down to +4
 - Bump Boar animal down to +4
 - Bump Tiger animal down to +4


Let me know if you'd like my spreadsheet.

Edit: After no action on this I looked it over and corrected a typo.

[EjoThims]

Oh hey, it helps to hit "Post." No wonder there weren't any more responses. 

- Wolf has Dominance listed in Hybrid form when it's a base racial trait which means it already applies to all forms.

Its better in Hybrid Form. Probably should throw an Improved on there.

- Why not just give Bears the Improved Grapple feat?

Same as others, I was paranoid about Dark Chaos Feat Shuffling. Was silly.

- Speaking of Ferret, give Ferret Scent.  It gains that as an animal, why not have it as a base racial trait?

There was a reason for it, but I can't remember and it does seem rather silly now. Changed.

- Viper having a tiny animal form is an outlier, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
 - Why do Bear hybrids get 15 foot reach?  Reach from Large isn't enough??

These are actually related, as I was staggering the extreme sizes against slight/powerful build. Hybrid Bears lose Powerful Build when gaining L size, but they're still effectively a size large in different ways. Same idea with Viper, animal form becomes but loses Slight build. I think the +6 Dex was supposed to fill the role of other benefit, but its pretty much what they should have from tiny anyway, but definitely don't wanna throw them even more. 

- Viper "Breath Weapon" isn't a breath weapon and so should be renamed to something like "Spit Poison".
 - I think that Rat should be size Small like Ferret is all the way down.  Don't adjust anything with the size change, just change the size.
 - Raven hybrid is larger than the base race, you can bump its land speed up to 30' to match Crane.

Done, but bit leery on the Rat size. I seem to recall there was a reason I wanted them to be M. If I remember why and still think its a good idea, may change it back.

- Why do hybrid bears lose their bite?

Tiger also does, though only those two lose an attack form between them. Think Bear was to offset the reach a bit more, but Tiger not sure any more.

 

- Why is there no progression for the boar natural weapon from animal to hybrid?

Because 3d6 seemed kind of too high? Felt good for animal boars to have an extra strong attack though, as the only physical based clan with only one attack form in animal form.

- Why do some animals get a natural armor progression and others don't?  We'll fix that, with a progression of +2 because that's what most of them have.

Literally not sure what you mean here? All animal forms have NA, and all hybrid forms have more NA than the animal form.

Let's Standardize your skill bonuses.

Holy crap, we're so close to a total of +2 for all races for stats!

On standardizing animal and hybrid form stats: we're going to do this.

I'm still super wary about moving them all all being the same total bonuses, especially across stats boosts in all forms, natural attack and armor progressions, skills, AND feats. They feel way too cookie cutter that way. Would much rather have a few having more in one category and less in others.

Let me know if you'd like my spreadsheet.

Would be very interested, yes. For some reason I just don't really think like that. Literally never even occurred to me to put one together.

But will definitely help me decide how much I want to standardize within categories or try to rotate across categories still.

[Nanshork]

Oh hey, it helps to hit "Post." No wonder there weren't any more responses. 

I was wondering what happened to you. 

- Wolf has Dominance listed in Hybrid form when it's a base racial trait which means it already applies to all forms.

Its better in Hybrid Form. Probably should throw an Improved on there.

Yep, adding the word Improved will help.  I didn't double check the numbers.

- Why not just give Bears the Improved Grapple feat?

Same as others, I was paranoid about Dark Chaos Feat Shuffling. Was silly.

Fair enough, just checking.

- Speaking of Ferret, give Ferret Scent.  It gains that as an animal, why not have it as a base racial trait?

There was a reason for it, but I can't remember and it does seem rather silly now. Changed.

Sounds good.

- Viper having a tiny animal form is an outlier, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
 - Why do Bear hybrids get 15 foot reach?  Reach from Large isn't enough??

These are actually related, as I was staggering the extreme sizes against slight/powerful build. Hybrid Bears lose Powerful Build when gaining L size, but they're still effectively a size large in different ways. Same idea with Viper, animal form becomes but loses Slight build. I think the +6 Dex was supposed to fill the role of other benefit, but its pretty much what they should have from tiny anyway, but definitely don't wanna throw them even more. 

15 foot reach feels very excessive.  Goliath Barbarian goes from Powerful Build to full on Large.  I think it's fine to just do that.

- Viper "Breath Weapon" isn't a breath weapon and so should be renamed to something like "Spit Poison".
 - I think that Rat should be size Small like Ferret is all the way down.  Don't adjust anything with the size change, just change the size.
 - Raven hybrid is larger than the base race, you can bump its land speed up to 30' to match Crane.

Done, but bit leery on the Rat size. I seem to recall there was a reason I wanted them to be M. If I remember why and still think its a good idea, may change it back.

Rat just feels small to me.  Rats aren't bigger than Ferrets.  The only reason I can see is to have a sneaky race of each size category (Medium and Small).

- Why do hybrid bears lose their bite?

Tiger also does, though only those two lose an attack form between them. Think Bear was to offset the reach a bit more, but Tiger not sure any more.

I actually didn't notice that with Tiger, how'd I miss that on my spreadsheet?

- Why is there no progression for the boar natural weapon from animal to hybrid?

Because 3d6 seemed kind of too high? Felt good for animal boars to have an extra strong attack though, as the only physical based clan with only one attack form in animal form.

I like progressions. 

- Why do some animals get a natural armor progression and others don't?  We'll fix that, with a progression of +2 because that's what most of them have.

Literally not sure what you mean here? All animal forms have NA, and all hybrid forms have more NA than the animal form.

I mean fixed progressions, not numbers that feel arbitrary.

Let's Standardize your skill bonuses.

Holy crap, we're so close to a total of +2 for all races for stats!

On standardizing animal and hybrid form stats: we're going to do this.

I'm still super wary about moving them all all being the same total bonuses, especially across stats boosts in all forms, natural attack and armor progressions, skills, AND feats. They feel way too cookie cutter that way. Would much rather have a few having more in one category and less in others.

I don't understand your mindset at all on this one.  Balanced between each other does not equal cookie cutter.  Right now everything feels like arbitrary numbers you made up because they sounded good.

Let me know if you'd like my spreadsheet.

Would be very interested, yes. For some reason I just don't really think like that. Literally never even occurred to me to put one together.

But will definitely help me decide how much I want to standardize within categories or try to rotate across categories still.

I'll figure out a way to get it to you when I'm at home.

[EjoThims]

15 foot reach feels very excessive.  Goliath Barbarian goes from Powerful Build to full on Large.  I think it's fine to just do that.

May have been why I threw the reach in there, to make it more extreme than that progression. Definitely adding bite back if taking away the reach.

Bit worried that will make them seem pigeonholed into NAers in hybrid form though? The reach and no bite explicitly supports being a weapon wielder over NAer. Think that concern may be why I took bite from Hybrid Tigers too?

Rat just feels small to me.  Rats aren't bigger than Ferrets.  The only reason I can see is to have a sneaky race of each size category (Medium and Small).

I think that may have been part of it. Perhaps with some appeal to the classic Wererats at M? S for now at least

I don't understand your mindset at all on this one.  Balanced between each other does not equal cookie cutter.  Right now everything feels like arbitrary numbers you made up because they sounded good.

To me +2 stats, +4 skills, 2 feats to every race seems very cookie cutter, especially if they're all also getting the same total numeric boosts from their animal and hybrid forms.

I will totally acknowledge the current (and past) randomness was probably a bit extreme, but starting with the base animal stats, its quite clear that picking arbitrary numbers was exactly how those were originally designed 

I had tried to just round out that with racial ability and role specialization boosts; finding the middle ground is what, obviously, still eludes me.

Gonna play around with the spreadsheet back and forth for a minute and update some things (already noticing some standouts like forgetting to specify speed for hybrid bear  ) and see how I feel about how where things end up there