Author Topic: Dretch [demon]  (Read 2624 times)

Offline ~Corvus~

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • My Greed has spread here too =D
    • View Profile
Dretch [demon]
« on: January 07, 2020, 10:05:45 PM »
Dretch


(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

HD: d8

Level
BABFort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save

Special
Ability Score
Adjustments
1st+0+2+0+0Lesser Body, Foul Nutrition, Telepathy, SLAs-2 Int, +1 Str, +1 Con
2nd+1+3+0+0Play Dead, Resistance, Summon Dretch
(Optional: Transformation)
+1 Str, +1 Con

Skills: Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Search (Int), Survival (Wis)
Skill Points equal to 4+Int skills (*4 at 1st level) | A negative Int score does not penalize the Dretch's skillpoints.

(click to show/hide)

Class abilities:

Ability Adjustments: The Dretch starts with a -2 Int.  It gains +1 Str and +1 Con at levels 1 and 2 for a total of +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int at 2nd level.

Proficiency: The Dretch is proficient with Claw (primary) and Bite natural weapons, no other weapons, no armor and no shields.

Languages: All Dretch can understand Abyssal, but they cannot speak verbally; attempts to do so result in gibberish.
 Bonus Languages (with Int 11+): Common, Infernal, Ignan, Terran, Xorn.

Natural Weapons: The Dretch has 2 primary Claw attacks that deal 1d6+Str damage and 1 secondary Bite attack that deals 1d4+1/2 Str damage.

Foul Nutrition (Ex): Dretch are filthy, slavering creatures and far from appetizing, but can be eaten for sustenance by other Demons.  Thus consumed, it allows the baatezu a number of options:
First, the Baatezu may choose to restore 1d8+X+Y HP, where X is equal to the Dretch's HD and Y is equal to the Dretch's total remaining SLA casts (0-level SLAs count as 1/2 spell).
Alternatively, the demon may gain Resist Energy as a 4th-level spell (70-minute duration) or Lesser Restoration.

A non-Demon that eats a Dretch finds it mostly disgusting. If forced to eat one, the creature must make a Con save (DC equal to the Dretch's Stinking Cloud SLA) or become nauseated for 1d4+1 rounds. Non-Demon creatures without a Con score (Such as undead) can eat Dretch as food without becoming nauseated (but gain no extra benefit).

Telepathy (Ex): The Dretch has Telepathy, restricted to the languages it knows (Abyssal by default), which allows it to communicate effectively with others. This extends to 100 feet, +10 feet per HD.

Spell-like Abilities: the Dretch gains a number of SLAs. DC are calculated as 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha.
At 1st level the Dretch gains Scare, as a 1st-level SLA, usable 2/day.
At 2nd level the Dretch gains Stinking Cloud, as a 2nd-level SLA, usable 1/day.

It also gains a limited set of additional SLAs from the list below. It may cast three Cantrips/day and one 1st-level SLA per day. Every 3 HD it gains, the Dretch can gains 1 additional casting for both 0-level & 1st-level SLAs.

(click to show/hide)

Play Dead (Ex):Upon taking damage that would reduce it to 0 HP (or less) but not kill it outright, the Dretch may immediately throw itself to the ground as if slain. It becomes Prone and as long as it doesn't take any Swift, Move or Standard actions, it has Fast Healing 1 until its HP total becomes 1. A creature may take a DC 12 Heal or Sense Motive check to determine that it's not dead; Demons get a +10 to this roll. This cannot be used to endure the process of being eaten (See Foul Nutrition).

Resistance: At 2nd level, the Dretch has reached its maturity. It takes half damage from any source of Electricity or poison damage, and poisons take twice as long to apply secondary effects.
At 7 HD or more, the Dretch becomes immune to both Electricity and Poison.

Summon Dretch (Su): At 2nd level, 1/encounter, the Dretch may summon another Dretch with HD equal to its own -1; the summoned Dretch loses this ability for the duration of its summoning.
----
Transformation: The Abyss is a vast and infinite place of despair; most Dretch live their pitiful lives in terrible or unwinnable situations. But with so much space, a rare few manage to find a means to transcend their form into a newer, better demon. This transformation takes anywhere from a couple days to several months, depending on the power it gains. Regardless, the Dretch retains whatever HD, BaB, Saves & skills it's gained as well as its Telepathy, SLAs, and Resistance.

The Dretch loses its Lesser Body (including DR and Natural Armor), its Natural Weapons, Foul Nutrition, Play Dead, Summon and Transformation qualities, all of which are replaced by the new Demon and its traits as it takes the first level from the class below:

Demonhive (infestation)
Jovoc
Arrow Demon
Succubus
Bebilith
Marilith
Sorrowsworn
Death Drinker
Balor
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 04:49:18 AM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 04:47:15 PM »
At first glance:
-" should not be suitable for players" is the exact opposite of this project's goals. The #1 objective here has always been "make this monster useable by players".
-You're deriving stat adjustements wrong. You subtract the basic array of 10s (if even) and 11s (if odd), so a Dretch's adjustement should be +2 Str, +4 Con, -6 Int. Mind you it's fine to change said adjustements for balance reasons, but make the "minion" monster have a Cha bonus? That just feels wrong.
-In case you haven't seen it yet, I would advise to take a look at the lemure as the devil version of playable minion monster.

Offline ~Corvus~

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • My Greed has spread here too =D
    • View Profile
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2020, 02:08:35 PM »
At first glance:
-" should not be suitable for players" is the exact opposite of this project's goals. The #1 objective here has always been "make this monster useable by players".

Okay, okay, I moved it to an optional "curse" trait that can be applied by superior demons, without mechanics for implementation (DM fiat only).

-You're deriving stat adjustements wrong. You subtract the basic array of 10s (if even) and 11s (if odd), so a Dretch's adjustement should be +2 Str, +4 Con, -6 Int.  Mind you it's fine to change said adjustements for balance reasons
Oh goodness, standard array is too elite for the Dretch!! It makes sense now~ Considering the significant damage even a -3 Int does, I'm not going to transfer to the more significant penalties and bonuses, as I think that's poorer design.

but make the "minion" monster have a Cha bonus? That just feels wrong.

Edit: Having run over the stat modifiers of the Dretch again, I can see what you're saying here, and I put its improvements into Str/Con. Charisma still makes the most sense to me for "inherent magical talent," like a sorceror or a Wilder.

 It's neat how you progressed the Lemure with "promotion," but to me this is more reasonable in the (relatively) ordered society of the Nine Hells. I think it's more sensible with the Dretch to leave it be, letting it grasp at straws as one must in a chaotic environment.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 04:33:37 PM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2020, 04:25:29 PM »
It's better, but still room for improving:
-Right now it has a -1 net ability bonus, that sucks. Should probably just remove the Int penalty, after all PC dretch is certainly smarter than average.
-Following on the above, let them know Common by default so they can communicate with the party.
-Why does a minion-type Monster have Hold on? Minions are meant to go down in one hit, not to take a 1000 damage crit smite evil from the epic paladin and still be standing.
-Also Delicious just doesn't make much sense here either. Although the 4e monster manual does mention they being used as food, it's only when there's nothing else to eat, if anything with their Stinking Cloud ability dretches should be anything but delicious, and for a PC dretch it should never come up. Plus if dretches are delicious, why are the demons bothering with invading other places?
-Although yes demons are more chaotic than devils, it's still official that dretches too can evolve Pokémon style into stronger forms. Just that while lemures must follow a specific order, a dretch may evolve into anything right away at the whims of the Abyss all the way up to a Balor (and then go after those that bullied it). And that's why the curse bit should be removed. If bigger demons could reliably stop dretches from evolving, then the Abyss would be quite a different place. And if the DM wants otherwise for dretch NPCs, they can just rule it that way on their own.
-In the other hand +5 Nat armor and 4 DR is certainly too much for first level, and out of line with all the other monster classes around here.
-Also random summoning is not very reliable. Should probably be 100% in return for a weaker dretch (no feats, 10 base on all stats for example).

Offline ~Corvus~

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • My Greed has spread here too =D
    • View Profile
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2020, 02:47:29 PM »
Only in 4th edition do minions have 1 HP. Too soon.

Delicious is hilarious! Its stinking Cloud is an SLA not an extraordinary ability. Plus Dretch are only tasty to other DEMONS, not standard PCs.

Demons do usually prevent dretches from evolving. Name one instance of published material where a Dretch gets it's "due" and I'll video myself eating a shoe.

Common could be added without terrible consequences.

I'm sure any sane GM would argue "a thousand smite damage results in instant death from massive damage."
Still, this was meant to be a capstone for a later level and could be changed; we can change that and it's DR and natural armor...but it's already so pitiful...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 09:29:37 PM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline oslecamo

  • Honorary Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2020, 08:22:51 AM »
Delicious is hilarious! Its stinking Cloud is an SLA not an extraordinary ability. Plus Dretch are only tasty to other DEMONS, not standard PCs.
First, that's contradictory with official fluff where dretches only being eaten when there's no other food available. If they were delicacies, they would be eaten first.

Second, you're removing a major motivation for demons attacking. Monsters often attack if they're hungry, but if demons already have delicious dretches in the abyss, then that's a lot less reason to bother invading the material plane.

Demons do usually prevent dretches from evolving. Name one instance of published material where a Dretch gets it's "due" and I'll video myself eating a shoe.
Fiendish Codex I, pg 8, goes that all demons start as manes then evolve into dretches then eventually into bigger demons. Bigger demons can also devolve back into weaker forms. And if there's anybody who can control that, it's the Demon princes themselves which hold godlike power, and even then only for devolving, not for preventing evolution. Dretches keep their heads low out of fear of being tortured by bigger demons, not out of fear of being eaten/evoblocked.

So may I ask you show a published instance of a chaotic demon able to block dretch evolution? Are you saying demons have a solid, stable, lawful hierarchy where superiors have perfect, cold control over those below?

I'm sure any sane GM would argue "a thousand smite damage results in instant death from massive damage."
Still, this was meant to be a capstone for a later level and could be changed; we can change that and it's DR and natural armor...but it's already so pitiful...

Stinking Cloud and Sleep along a bunch of other magic options with a d8 HD, some DR (very llimited ways for a PC to get DR of any kind at first level) is pretty far from pitiful. It's kinda a 5-minute worker, but for a battle or two the dretch will kick some serious ass.

Offline ~Corvus~

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • My Greed has spread here too =D
    • View Profile
Re: Dretch [Infernal]
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 06:13:39 AM »
Changed the DR to 2/cold Iron or Good with a slower progression, which is still good, but isn't ridiculously OP.

If they were delicacies, they would be eaten first.

Second, you're removing a major motivation for demons attacking. Monsters often attack if they're hungry, but if demons already have delicious dretches in the abyss, then that's a lot less reason to bother invading the material plane.

Well argued. Changed Delicious into "Foul Nutrition" and added a few changes.

So may I ask you show a published instance of a chaotic demon able to block dretch evolution? Are you saying demons have a solid, stable, lawful hierarchy where superiors have perfect, cold control over those below?

Can't find anything. I never said that demons have anything close to a solid, stable or lawful hierarchy. In case of point, this also falls into the reasoning of why I'm not going to help the Dretch evolve. An ambitious lesser demon must work hard for and have great ambition to evolve, damn it! (Please excuse the pun)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 11:14:47 PM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.

Offline ~Corvus~

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • My Greed has spread here too =D
    • View Profile
Re: Dretch [Demon]
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2020, 11:30:30 PM »
Changed Hang On to an ability closer to its original intention, but also allows the distinct possibility of failure. Hopefully this allows the Dretch to be tough, but far from immortal.

Added an Advancement option. As creature customization must be allowed, it's not forced on the creature but rather an optional path with some benefit and an understandable loss as well.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 11:34:29 PM by ~Corvus~ »
Quote from: HuskyBoi
I just need a minute to appreciate the words 'goliath lamp-post sneak attack'. That's a thing of beauty, right there.

Greedling avatar by Ceika from Giantitp.