Author Topic: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z  (Read 80074 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2018, 03:41:52 PM »
Since one of your players wasn't aware that beam coat was part of the wall/barrier/field trio I figured that more explicit would be better in case you aren't around to correct misinformation.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2018, 07:13:35 PM »
Your concern and willingness to dig into years-old campaign posts is appreciated. Now if it is still not explicit enough please say so. If it is explicit enough, there is plenty of other material waiting that I would prefer to tackle next rather than discuss what happened under older versions of the rules.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 07:31:21 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2018, 07:47:47 PM »
This isn't years old posts, this came up in your ooc thread a week ago.  :P

Edit: This page.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2018, 07:53:44 PM »
Said player had already misread the same rule before. It doesn't matter how I update that rule, it can now be expected he in particular will keep misread it, while none of the other players had any trouble with interaction between multiple barriers/fields/walls/coats.

So ignoring the one player who keeps repeating the same mistake, do you still consider the rule not explicit enough?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 07:57:58 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2018, 08:00:42 PM »
You made your adjustment, it's fine.  I was just explaining myself.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2018, 02:40:46 AM »
Very well.

As an aside, why is it not any more difficult to disarm a weapon physically built into a mecha than it is to regular disarm a weapon that is merely held in hand? I mean, imo, if disarming a built-in weapon is possible, its kind of akin to trying to disarm a weapon from a locked gauntlet or something, no?

A not-in-built weapon isn't "merely held in hand", it's tightly clamped by metal manipulators that were designed specifically for that purpose. If you can pull a weapon from that, pulling a weapon physically built into a mecha isn't really harder.

In mecha battles "disarming" should be taken to the literal sense that a limb's been chopped off. As talked previously it's a staple of mecha shows, giant robots get bits chopped off left, right and center. Luckily mechas don't bleed off and even a chopped limb can be quickly fixed in a base or even jury-rig something on the scene (move action to "pick up" disarmed weapon).

Also again rule of cool, mechas holding weapons in hand should be as viable as leg missiles and shoulder cannons and whatnot.

Well, to a degree it makes sense because mecha have a tendency to lose arms and everything else.

But then it goes back to 3.X being all about size for combat manoeuvres and the best way to deal with them is to be big. And if you throw enough attempts in, eventually there's a fail... which is a pretty big deal when it comes to how limited weapon replacement is.

Cough Tek Knight cough. Also Gun Maniac and Martial Machine have some maneuvers to help make up for size differences plus some T.O.U.H.O.U. stuff.

And that is, in point of fact, the only REALLY good option for Tek Knight...

No, seriously, it has the least hideous drawbacks. If you're looking to maximize combat maneuvers as a tiny mecha you're probably getting up close and personal anyways, so arsenal halving is just *shrug*. Point for point some of that stuff is just not worth it. Great Plating and whatnot is a really nice option, why? Because when your Dodge bonus is 0, then you don't care that it gets cut in half. By contrast, consider Tek Reactor, which gives you +40 energy but halves your spirit points, at a whoopin' 4 point cost. In order to make full use of size benefits, you'd have to invest 8 points in it for a total of +75 max energy. By contrast, for 5 points, you could have Reactor 2, which would get you an average 11 points of energy each round with no drawbacks and spare you three upgrade points. Taking Tek Reactor effectively makes certain higher-level Super spirits unusable. Tek Soul, by contrast, makes some low-level spirits spammable (sort of), but max HP in half is... yeesh. Better hope no one gets through your every-single-round Alert, buddy. Tek Storage is... okay, I guess? Sort of? I mean, if you want to be a tiny, tiny kinetic weapons platform, then the energy halving isn't so bad. I honestly don't understand why you can't have Nanomachines along with it (Mysterious Power makes sense though, since less energy is less of a problem if every round regen is making up for it).

Because Tek Storage works off Hyperdimensional Storage and that along Nanomachines and Mysterious power are the most popular super upgrades, thus they're mutually exclusive otherwise basically every super will just be taking all of them.

Anyway you seem to agree that Tek Storage and Tek Servos are valid choices for their builds, so any issue would be with Tek Reactor and Tek Soul.

For Tek Reactor, extra energy right now can be more valuable than more extra energy in the long run. It allows for greater bursts in one round, and you can take both it and Mysterious Power for an even greater combined effect. As for the drawback, I would be open to swap half spirits for, say, half combat maneuvers like grapple/disarm/trip/etc.

For Tek Soul, again remember that a bigger starting pools allows for greater bursts. That +40 spirit reserves means another average cost spirit or would greatly help pay for something big like Zeal or whatnot out of the gate. As for the drawback, cutting HP in half is nasty yes, but I want an option for lower HP supers and if any build can do it with such a drawback, it would indeed be a spirit build able to spam defensive spirits like Guard every round.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2018, 03:30:58 AM »
Except for even HP tank mechas being able to be effortlessly taken down within a single round, yes halving HP totally is worth being able to spam something like Guard every round.

Except, again, for basically being able to do that well enough without Tek Soul >.>

Oh, and something like the Fury spirit ignores Guard, and you wouldn't need to use Fury more than once for these 1/2 HP mechas to kill them.....

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2018, 04:09:17 AM »
You'll notice that current Guard has a clause that if an effect would ignore it, instead the reduction changes to 1/3, which still comes ahead of 1/2. The other damage reduction spirits also got similar clauses for quite some time now.

And although you can get enough spirit to spam Guard for several rounds, Tek Soul allows you to actually get a neutral/positive spirit regen while doing so much earlier than would otherwise be possible.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2018, 10:00:13 AM »
I get that half is easier to calculate Osle, but as proportions go, it is exceedingly harsh on some stats and not so much on others (again, Great Plating comes to mind).

Being able to go nova on your opponents is a lot more useful if you can ensure that A) you go first and B) they die either during said nova or shortly after. If either condition is broken, then the drawbacks become untenable - you can't go nova if you're dead, and you can't finish them off if you're spent. Given that there is pretty much no way to manipulate initiative within this homebrew system (that I can see anyway), then as a build choice, it becomes a lot less valid.

I imagine that the reduction applies on top of your "current" totals, rather than atop the totals at the time you pick the option (which would make said options a lot more attractive at lower levels), but it might be a good idea to add a note for the sake of clarification. Cthulhu knows us min-maxers hunt for technicalities like they're the last dodo bird.  :P

My suggestion for Tek Reactor, if you MUST apply a reduction to Spirits (I personally dislike the idea of permanent changes to stuff you can only gain through levels... but I get where the design comes from) is to apply a 20% or 1/5 reduction instead. It's severe enough to matter without completely inutilizing higher-level spirits usage (it only delays them). Similarly for Tek Soul, apply a 20% reduction to max HP. Which again, is pretty nasty, but a lot more survivable than 50%.

But Hyperdimensional Storage already forbids Nanomachines and Mysterious Reactor. As it is, you can take Tek Storage AND Hyperdimensional if you want to cram more weapons into your tiny robot (which brings this to mind)...



Now, HS can be taken multiple times, but Tek Storage only once. If you lift the restriction for Tek Storage alone, you provide an alternative for smaller Supers to have a little more arsenal space while also having more staying power. At the same time, if they want MORE DAKKA they'll have to sacrifice staying power for it, which would balance it out. Hyperdimensional Storage still wins out in the cost-benefit department though.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2018, 03:24:54 PM »
You guys keep talking about things that I don't even know about, I'll start with the classes now.   :p

Real Pilot

Sleight Of Hand not being on the skills list feels weird, mainly because Open Lock and other primary rogue skills are.  It isn't a big deal either way, I just wanted to mention it.

That is a lot of mecha with options that I haven't looked at in years.  Is it safe to assume that someone has already reviewed those or do I need to get in depth with them?


Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2018, 07:51:47 PM »
You guys keep talking about things that I don't even know about, I'll start with the classes now.   :p

Real Pilot

Sleight Of Hand not being on the skills list feels weird, mainly because Open Lock and other primary rogue skills are.  It isn't a big deal either way, I just wanted to mention it.

That is a lot of mecha with options that I haven't looked at in years.  Is it safe to assume that someone has already reviewed those or do I need to get in depth with them?

Nobody did a full review of the reals that I remember, only pointing out some odd bits here and there, so a more in-depth analysis would be welcome.

Added Sleight of Hand to Real Pilot.

I get that half is easier to calculate Osle, but as proportions go, it is exceedingly harsh on some stats and not so much on others (again, Great Plating comes to mind).

Being able to go nova on your opponents is a lot more useful if you can ensure that A) you go first and B) they die either during said nova or shortly after. If either condition is broken, then the drawbacks become untenable - you can't go nova if you're dead, and you can't finish them off if you're spent. Given that there is pretty much no way to manipulate initiative within this homebrew system (that I can see anyway), then as a build choice, it becomes a lot less valid.
Spells and stealth and superior range/speed are still around.

I imagine that the reduction applies on top of your "current" totals, rather than atop the totals at the time you pick the option (which would make said options a lot more attractive at lower levels), but it might be a good idea to add a note for the sake of clarification. Cthulhu knows us min-maxers hunt for technicalities like they're the last dodo bird.  :P
Considering that modern  studies show that dodos were not actually actively hunted (since it seems like they tasted awful) and were most probably driven extinct by pigs and dogs introduced in their island, maybe that's not a boast you should be doing. :p

Anyway added extra note that the penalties apply to the current values.

My suggestion for Tek Reactor, if you MUST apply a reduction to Spirits (I personally dislike the idea of permanent changes to stuff you can only gain through levels... but I get where the design comes from)
Yet you have no problem with penalty to Dodge that can only be gained by special abilities. :p

Still penalty to spirits doesn't feel that right so changed to penalty to Grapple, Trip, Disarm and Bullrush.

is to apply a 20% or 1/5 reduction instead. It's severe enough to matter without completely inutilizing higher-level spirits usage (it only delays them). Similarly for Tek Soul, apply a 20% reduction to max HP. Which again, is pretty nasty, but a lot more survivable than 50%.
I wouldn't say that 20% is that nasty, really. More in particular, there's also quite low HP real robots. If only a 20% HP variation is considered viable, then a lot more needs changing besides this upgrade.

In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

But Hyperdimensional Storage already forbids Nanomachines and Mysterious Reactor. As it is, you can take Tek Storage AND Hyperdimensional if you want to cram more weapons into your tiny robot (which brings this to mind)...



Now, HS can be taken multiple times, but Tek Storage only once. If you lift the restriction for Tek Storage alone, you provide an alternative for smaller Supers to have a little more arsenal space while also having more staying power. At the same time, if they want MORE DAKKA they'll have to sacrifice staying power for it, which would balance it out. Hyperdimensional Storage still wins out in the cost-benefit department though.

Ok, removed the limitation for Tek storage.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2018, 12:22:43 AM »
Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:25:43 AM by ketaro »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2018, 12:30:06 AM »
Real Robot in depth analysis will happen but it might take some time.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2018, 12:15:52 PM »
Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.

Right now I have basically quantum level 1-5th spells and I'm still squishy as a bug, too, so that should be telling of why HP is supposed to be important again...
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2018, 05:16:11 PM »
Real Robot Math Analysis

I obviously don't watch robot anime because I didn't realize that all four generics are acronyms until after I made my spreadsheet with a huge names column.

ARMS HP felt odd when compared to the others but when I started writing out an actual breakdown to explain myself it made sense so nevermind.  Everyone has the same basic progression layout.

VALKYRIE's Transform cost goes up at level 6 & 7, is that intentional?  1-5 it costs 10 Arsenal space.  At 6 it costs 15 arsenal space and at 7 it costs 20.

Other than that I just don't know the system well enough to make a further comparison between the generics or compare the generics vs the non-generics because I don't know what arsenal space and hardpoints can buy.

Here's a basic table of all of the generic robots if someone wants to do something with it.

NameLVLSizeSavesNat ArmorDRHPEnergyDodgeArsenal SpaceHardpointsSpeedOther
ARMS1S000850045420
ARMS2S1352450345425
ARMS3S24104850445430
ARMS4S35158050545435
ARMS5S472011250745440
ARMS6S592514450955445
ARMS7S61030176501065450
GUNDAM1M00010100040430
GUNDAM2M13530100340435
GUNDAM3M241060100440440
GUNDAM4M3515100100540445
GUNDAM5M4720140100740450
GUNDAM6M5925180100950455
GUNDAM7M610302201001060460
KNIGHTMARE1T0-10575130335
KNIGHTMARE2T1251575430340
KNIGHTMARE3T23103075530345
KNIGHTMARE4T34155075630355
KNIGHTMARE5T46207075830360
KNIGHTMARE6T582590751035370
KNIGHTMARE7T6930110751140380
VALKYRIE1M00010100030330Transform
VALKYRIE2M13530100330335Transform
VALKYRIE3M241060100430340Transform
VALKYRIE4M3515100100530345Transform
VALKYRIE5M4720140100730350Transform
VALKYRIE6M5925180100935355Transform
VALKYRIE7M510302201001040360Transform

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2018, 11:06:29 PM »
Real Robot Math Analysis

I obviously don't watch robot anime because I didn't realize that all four generics are acronyms until after I made my spreadsheet with a huge names column.

ARMS HP felt odd when compared to the others but when I started writing out an actual breakdown to explain myself it made sense so nevermind.  Everyone has the same basic progression layout.

VALKYRIE's Transform cost goes up at level 6 & 7, is that intentional?  1-5 it costs 10 Arsenal space.  At 6 it costs 15 arsenal space and at 7 it costs 20.
It's less of a matter of transform costing more but keeping the VALKYRIE's reduced arsenal proportionally lower to the GUNDAMS own since ways to increase arsenal space are pretty limited in SRWd20.

Other than that I just don't know the system well enough to make a further comparison between the generics or compare the generics vs the non-generics because I don't know what arsenal space and hardpoints can buy.
Fair enough, feel free to check the Arsenal properly first then we can talk about the real robots again.

And thanks for the table!

Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.

Right now I have basically quantum level 1-5th spells and I'm still squishy as a bug, too, so that should be telling of why HP is supposed to be important again...

Ok, rogues then. Have a 1d6 while barbarians have 1d12, and rogues have no spells and can't really afford much Con while the barbarian can, but rogues are still considered a pretty solid class.

And case in point Nanshork just went over the generic reals and has no trouble with KNIGHTMAREs having half HP of GUNDAMS.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2018, 11:32:12 PM »
Don't they make up for it by having a lot more hardpoints and Arsenal space?

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2018, 12:08:46 AM »
Don't they make up for it by having a lot more hardpoints and Arsenal space?

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.

Actually I was so distracted by Transform analysis that I forgot about the KNIGHTMAREs.

Unless being a tiny mecha has some sort of bonus they kind of suck (I don't know if mecha have size bonuses/penalties as normal).

Even if they do, does being harder to hit and good at hiding (and a little faster) make up for equivalent arsenal/hardpoints as a VALKYRIE with half the HP?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2018, 12:23:07 AM »
Mechas get the usual size bonus/penalties.

Ok, since you say the size advantages alone aren't worth it then I buffed the KNIGHTMARES to have 125 base energy and 5 hardpoints from tiers I to V plus 6 hardpoints and 150 energy for tier VI plus 7 hardpoints and 175 energy for tier VII plus GUNDAMS grade arsenal space progression.

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.
That is a core aspect of D&D before 4e. Even a fighter in full plate and shield or a raging barbarian can go down to a single lucky crit or unlucky save roll. The chances of a beefy character going down in 1 round are significant less than the squishy wizard, but a dedicated assault is still a threat.

Still Anomander's character ended ungodly tough.

Offline ketaro

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Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2018, 12:27:47 AM »
Ok, rogues then. Have a 1d6 while barbarians have 1d12, and rogues have no spells and can't really afford much Con while the barbarian can, but rogues are still considered a pretty solid class.

And what does that have to do with the topic? Honestly.  :huh
I could sit here and pick apart both classes to show why exactly either one is worth what it's getting out of not having other things but, yanno, at the end of the day, we can compare everything in D&D to everything else in D&D, but none of those things are mechas.

What is actually being gained from cutting your HP in half and is it actually a comparable gain for such an insane loss?
(And I don't mean to be asking that question as if to say I don't know. Because I do know what the gains/losses are for the ability's current incarnation. I'm asking if you really believe it grants a worthwhile trade off because no one else here does. This is a system where a mecha built as a massive tank can still be dropped in a single round, so what can really justify being crippled to half HP forever?)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 12:32:25 AM by ketaro »