Greenbound and Rashemi Elemental Summoning Handbook Discussion

[wotmaniac]

Again, depending upon the DM's interpretation of "air or earth elementals" from the Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat*, the appropriate templates would apply (Smoke and Ice paraelementals would gain Orglash, and Magma and Ooze paraelementals would gain Thomil).

That's where I'm at.  I'm sure that the baseline assumption was just plain ol' stock elementals from MM.  But then I read the template description .... I'd say that the feat is good.

I'd have to double-check the exact interactions, but I think that would mean Smoke Paraelemental Orglashes would have both the fire and cold subtypes...

That's the wall I'm up against.  Thomils have absolutely no contradictions with Mamga or Ooze paraelementals; and while there's no contradiction between Orglash and Ice p.e. (it actually fits quite nicely), I'm having trouble with the narrative of an Orglash Smoke p.e., let alone the blatant contradiction of the opposing subtypes. 
Unless someone can give something compelling to rationalize how this can work (because there are exactly zero monsters that have both the cold and fire subtypes), I'm inclined to follow the precedence found in Beckon the Frozen.
yea/nay?

So, what is this expanded list from Dragon #302?  Just a "hey, you could allow people to summon these extra monsters, too," kind of thing? Or what?  I'd always been wanting something more than DM fiat to add the paraelementals as something summonable (an engulfing Magma Thomil... YUM!), but I never got Dragon Mag, so didn't know of this.  I'm just curious what tack it takes: actual rules, or just sort of a "DM whim" sort of suggestion.

Well, first it talks about how "more options"="more power", blah blah blah; and then gives a basic outline of what CRs are appropriate for what spell levels, followed by a GINORMOUS list of potential add-ons.
And then they give guidance for how to implement this:
1) high-powered games = free-for-all
2) mid-powered games = 1:1 exchange for a creature that serves the same role
  2a) or giant day-long spellcraft check to see if you can just add; but must have first-hand knowledge of that creature or watch someone else summon it
3) low-powered games = a TOTAL of 3+(stat mod) creatures per spell level, selected cooperatively with your DM

p.s.: I found my dragon magazines "online"    just sayin'

[eggynack]

That's the wall I'm up against.  Thomils have absolutely no contradictions with Mamga or Ooze paraelementals; and while there's no contradiction between Orglash and Ice p.e. (it actually fits quite nicely), I'm having trouble with the narrative of an Orglash Smoke p.e., let alone the blatant contradiction of the opposing subtypes. 
Unless someone can give something compelling to rationalize how this can work (because there are exactly zero monsters that have both the cold and fire subtypes), I'm inclined to follow the precedence found in Beckon the Frozen.
yea/nay?

I don't see any issue with the conflicting subtypes. There are no rules against it, and there are already creatures like the paraelemental and tempest that have both the fire and water subtypes, which seems close enough to me.

[wotmaniac]

I don't see any issue with the conflicting subtypes. There are no rules against it, and there are already creatures like the paraelemental and tempest that have both the fire and water subtypes, which seems close enough to me.

water ╪ cold.  And the Tempest is explicitly of the fire subtype, and has zero cold effects.  Paraelementals don't have any exactly-opposite effects/subtypes.
I just ran across 2 precedents:
- Aspect of Tiamat (FC2 WE) : this is a special case, and the nature of this is quite clear; so I don't even know if it counts as precedent,
- Energy Admixture feat: explicitly calls out a [fire, cold] scenario as being allowed.

I'm just having trouble trying to visualize what this would look like.

[snakeman830]

I don't see any issue with the conflicting subtypes. There are no rules against it, and there are already creatures like the paraelemental and tempest that have both the fire and water subtypes, which seems close enough to me.

water ╪ cold.  And the Tempest is explicitly of the fire subtype, and has zero cold effects.  Paraelementals don't have any exactly-opposite effects/subtypes.
I just ran across 2 precedents:
- Aspect of Tiamat (FC2 WE) : this is a special case, and the nature of this is quite clear; so I don't even know if it counts as precedent,
- Energy Admixture feat: explicitly calls out a [fire, cold] scenario as being allowed.

I'm just having trouble trying to visualize what this would look like.

Burning ice crystals.  I'm sure there's a real-world chemical compound that can create the image of burning ice.

Besides that, Frostburn also brought us  Rimefire, which is half Cold, half Fire damage.

[ksbsnowowl]

check out the elemental avatars from the MM IV, and consider that you get them with SNA V.

Where is that stated?  I just searched a MM4 OCR pdf, and there is no mention of "summon" anywhere in the section about the avatars of elemental evil.  There's not even a "For Player Characters" section about them.

[eggynack]

Where is that stated?  I just searched a MM4 OCR pdf, and there is no mention of "summon" anywhere in the section about the avatars of elemental evil.  There's not even a "For Player Characters" section about them.

Not in the monsters, but in the summoning spells themselves. In particular, SNA V says that you can summon an, "Elemental, Large (any)". So, does that mean that you can summon any elemental that is large, or that you can only summon those specific creatures: large air elemental, large earth elemental, large fire elemental, and large water elemental? The answer to that question should logically inform your answer to what creatures you can apply the orglash and thomil templates to, especially because rashemi elemental summoning is significantly less vague. You don't get these creatures under more standard interpretations of the rules, but you also don't get thomil thoqquas. This interpretation is a natural, and possibly unavoidable, consequence of that interpretation.

[linklord231]

Where is that stated?  I just searched a MM4 OCR pdf, and there is no mention of "summon" anywhere in the section about the avatars of elemental evil.  There's not even a "For Player Characters" section about them.

Not in the monsters, but in the summoning spells themselves. In particular, SNA V says that you can summon an, "Elemental, Large (any)". So, does that mean that you can summon any elemental that is large, or that you can only summon those specific creatures: large air elemental, large earth elemental, large fire elemental, and large water elemental? The answer to that question should logically inform your answer to what creatures you can apply the orglash and thomil templates to, especially because rashemi elemental summoning is significantly less vague. You don't get these creatures under more standard interpretations of the rules, but you also don't get thomil thoqquas. This interpretation is a natural, and possibly unavoidable, consequence of that interpretation.

It's pretty obvious that the authors were talking about the specific creatures listed under the "Elemental" heading when they wrote Summon Monster rather than any creature of the Elemental type. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to list Invisible Stalkers specifically under Summon Monster VIII when it could otherwise have been included under the "Elemental, Large (Any)" clause of SMVII. 

On the other hand, it's not so obvious with regards to Rashemi Elemental Summoning.  The feat could be using either interpretation of "elemental", and both would make sense.  For more context, we should look to the templates themselves.  In this case, it explicitly gives examples of Thoqqua or Invisible Stalker Thomils and Orglashes, so we know that those creatures are intended to exist. 

[eggynack]

Not in the monsters, but in the summoning spells themselves. In particular, SNA V says that you
It's pretty obvious that the authors were talking about the specific creatures listed under the "Elemental" heading when they wrote Summon Monster rather than any creature of the Elemental type. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to list Invisible Stalkers specifically under Summon Monster VIII when it could otherwise have been included under the "Elemental, Large (Any)" clause of SMVII. 

Yes, of course. That reading makes far more sense both by intent and by context. However, at the same time, the RAW itself is somewhat ambiguous. What does any large elemental actually mean within the rules? That brings us to the next point.

On the other hand, it's not so obvious with regards to Rashemi Elemental Summoning.  The feat could be using either interpretation of "elemental", and both would make sense.  For more context, we should look to the templates themselves.  In this case, it explicitly gives examples of Thoqqua or Invisible Stalker Thomils and Orglashes, so we know that those creatures are intended to exist.

Here lies the issue, I think. If any large elemental doesn't refer to all creatures of the elemental type, then why would earth elemental, something that could far more easily be a reference to an actual creature, refer to all elementals of the earth subtype? Either the term elemental, as used for these particular purposes, is referencing that little set of elementals, or it's referring to the elemental type. You really can't have it both ways here.

As for your example, that only really applies to the template, rather than to what the feat applies it to. We already knew that the orglash template applied to any elemental creature of the air subtype, because that's exactly what the template says it works on. As a matter of fact, the presence of those lines in the template, and not in the feat itself, could easily be indicative of a more restrictive usage for the feat. Furthermore, elemental wild shape is, if anything, even more ambiguous, given that the only source of context for the more reasonable reading is the existence of the feat improved elemental wild shape, and the fact that it does next to nothing in the broad interpretation. In conclusion, these are all really natural consequences that arise when you take the looser definition of elemental.

[Endarire]

Version 1.4 of my Greenbound Summonling Stats is available with new creature lists and errata for the old ones!  I mention it here because I link to this handbook from my handbook post!  Enjoy!