Author Topic: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?  (Read 67013 times)

Offline betrayor

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 08:45:51 AM »
Regardless of the mechanical arguments (which I think are a bit unimportant in the long run because your either trying to do something TO or you are doing something that would be fine regardless of race) I will admit that I love the idea of DWK being true dragons from an RP perspective.  I find something satisfyingly ironic about certain special 2 foot tall lizards being able to claim membership in one of the most powerful club of beings in the multiverse. 

It just gives me a silly mental image of the collection of true dragons sitting around a table hashing out dragon business and in between the great wyrm prismatic and force dragons is a tiny kobold bitchin' about how he doesn't get any respect like a tiny draconic Rodney Dangerfield.

Hah....
These are not True Dragons....
They are along with the fabled Time Dragon,Epic Dragons.....
 :D :D

Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »
Actually, Force and Prismatic Dragons are true dragons according to both p.103 of Races of the Dragon and p.286 of Draconomicon, so confirmed by two sources.  Besides do you really want to tell a creature that can bench press an aircraft carrier that it can't sit at your table? :P

Offline betrayor

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 09:47:08 AM »
Actually, Force and Prismatic Dragons are true dragons according to both p.103 of Races of the Dragon and p.286 of Draconomicon, so confirmed by two sources.  Besides do you really want to tell a creature that can bench press an aircraft carrier that it can't sit at your table? :P
Well I was just being facetious but really if you see the ELH Prismatic and Force are in the entry Dragon,Epic just like the True Dragons  from the monster manual are in the entry Dragon,True......

But Imagine this:In the great True Dragon meeting the mighty Dragonwrought kobold would be accepted and the lowlies Force,Prismatic and Time Dragons would be shunned..... :P :P :P

Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 10:28:05 AM »
Actually, Force and Prismatic Dragons are true dragons according to both p.103 of Races of the Dragon and p.286 of Draconomicon, so confirmed by two sources.  Besides do you really want to tell a creature that can bench press an aircraft carrier that it can't sit at your table? :P
Well I was just being facetious but really if you see the ELH Prismatic and Force are in the entry Dragon,Epic just like the True Dragons  from the monster manual are in the entry Dragon,True......

But Imagine this:In the great True Dragon meeting the mighty Dragonwrought kobold would be accepted and the lowlies Force,Prismatic and Time Dragons would be shunned..... :P :P :P

Great Wyrm Force Dragon:  "Fine don't let me sit at your stupid table!  I'll make my own table!  With blackjack! And Hookers!  On second though, forget the table and blackjack!"

Offline Halinn

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 05:25:14 PM »
I think it's more a question of whether or not the kobolds allow the "true" dragons to sit at their table. You people have obviously been misled as to which races are more powerful.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 07:07:59 PM »
Regardless of the mechanical arguments (which I think are a bit unimportant in the long run because your either trying to do something TO or you are doing something that would be fine regardless of race) I will admit that I love the idea of DWK being true dragons from an RP perspective.  I find something satisfyingly ironic about certain special 2 foot tall lizards being able to claim membership in one of the most powerful club of beings in the multiverse. 

It just gives me a silly mental image of the collection of true dragons sitting around a table hashing out dragon business and in between the great wyrm prismatic and force dragons is a tiny kobold bitchin' about how he doesn't get any respect like a tiny draconic Rodney Dangerfield.

I'm going to ignore the entire rest of this thread just to tell you that this mental image is awesome!

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 08:38:35 PM »
That's right, just like you there are a thousand other people saying I can't argue or prove anything but an unspecified group of unnamed people do so f*ck rules and book count. ~THERE WAS NO HOLOCAUST!!1!!!1!!1
Bad parsing aside ... calm down bro  :cool No one actually says that anyways. Its just a straw man IMO.

A Balor is a Demon because it says so, a Lung Dragon is a True Dragon because it says so, a Kobold is a Kobold because it says so. Having the outsider type and DR don't make you a Devil, having the Dragon type doesn't make you a True Dragon. Just like having the Spell Cure Minor Wounds and Turn Undead doesn't turn a Paladin into a Cleric or some other bullshit like that.

Hell, look at the awesome power of a TD that I've brought up multiple times. A real TD is obtains HD from getting older. Like on it's birthday it gains two HD, maybe some new SLAs, maybe obtaining DR/SR for the first time, maybe even obtaining Frightful Presence. No other monster type truly does or advances like this. Like take a Greater Elemental, per RAW they can only advance to 23 HD and that's it. The Elder Air Elemental has 24HD but that's another monster entry, but even if the conclusion they are one and the same the term "Elder" doesn't apply to age. It could be five minutes old or fifty years old, no speculation is made
This latter bit is an interesting interpretation. The rules are often inconsistent so you may be right about those elder elementals. For dragons that interpretation is vulnerable to age curse shenanigans, unlike the assumption that it is the RHD that procs the category. And on the devils there is criteria for being one (although fulfilling that seems almost equivalent to 'it is a devil because all the entries say so').

on topic @OP: whether or not kobolds are TD (either sides goes nuts on me when I say anything indicating agreement or disagreement) obviously not all TD are included in the list or a whole lot of other sources are wrong.

Offline littha

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 09:50:18 PM »
. And on the devils there is criteria for being one (although fulfilling that seems almost equivalent to 'it is a devil because all the entries say so').

It is completely equivalent to that. Devils all have the Baatezu subtype...

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 02:21:27 AM »
. And on the devils there is criteria for being one (although fulfilling that seems almost equivalent to 'it is a devil because all the entries say so').

It is completely equivalent to that. Devils all have the Baatezu subtype...

Not all of them do, most do, but not all. Same with demons not all having the tanar'ri subtype.


Towards the topic, I as far as I've seen DW kobolds count as TD, based on the age categories. I feel that is solid evidence
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:26:43 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline littha

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 02:25:19 AM »
Only a couple though.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2012, 02:28:26 AM »
It only takes 1 to make the word "all" not work ;)

Yugoloths might all have the same subtype though, but I'm afb
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2012, 05:47:11 PM »
because the thread we were referring sounds like the fucking sand lot kids coming to a conclusion about how to fly to Mars.
It's GitP. Never go there for rules or optimization.

Also, just in the one thread I read everything except the analogy you used I saw, though admittedly you are better at logical argument than about 90% of the posters in that thread.
Given that anyone who says DWKs are TDs is illogical and can only be beaten over the head with a stick and castrated, I'm shocked I even hit 90%.

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Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2012, 02:03:59 AM »
I just spent most of my evening coming up with a list of all traits that True Dragons are described as having, examining them for consistency, and determining if Dragonwrought Kobolds meet the definitions given.  I went though every book I own, including Monster Manuals 1-5, Oriental Adventures, Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragons of Eberron, and Dragon Magic, noting every reference to the phrase "True Dragon."  Here is what I found.

True Dragons: 
(click to show/hide)

Rebuttal:
(click to show/hide)

In conclusion:  The only debatable part of whether DWKs count as True Dragons stems from the meaning of “advance through age categories.”  If you read it one way, DWKs are not True Dragons.  If you read it the other, they are.  Both are valid.  For the sake of game balance/sanity, they probably should not be allowed to count as True Dragons.  For the sake of general awesomeness and fluff, they probably should. 

Because of the exceptions-based nature of D&D, any absolute generalization is going to fail.  Therefore, statements such as “All True Dragons have X” can and should be disregarded, because as soon as there is one exception the statement is no longer true.  Nobody is saying “but DWKs are the only exception,” and if they are, they’re wrong. 

Edit:  Added point 20 and a Rebuttal, see ImperatorK's posts on pg 9.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 12:18:04 AM by linklord231 »
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Offline ZombieGirl

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2012, 03:36:33 AM »
To be honest, theres all sorts of shenanigans going on in 3.5 with rules interpretation, 3.5 is not the most clearly worded rpg out there, and it leaves a lot to be desired (and interpreted). They didnt cover all angles and all possibilities, since it is impossible to anticipate player ingenuity (or ridiculousness, however you wish to see it) I however am of the mind that DWK's are true dragons, simply for the fact that there are only a hand full of dragon types and classifications.

The Dragonblooded subtype is usually used for half-dragons, draconic, or otherwise creatures that have some portion of dragon in them, but aren't complete dragons.

Then there is the Dragon type that all actual dragons have.

I havent been following the debate for very long, but i do find it interesting how many different ways things are interpreted. All i can do is contribute my own interpretation.

In races of dragon it states how a half-dragon regards kobolds.

Kobolds: Her dragon heritage might make a draconic character distantly akin to a kobold, but that doesn’t mean she feels anything in common. Even if she is aware of her own dragon blood, she doesn’t understand the kobolds’belief that they are descended from dragons. To suggest that the two are related is to insult the draconic character.

So already there is a large gap between half-dragons and kobolds, despite kobolds being descendants of dragons to some degree. Then it goes on to compare half-dragons to 'true' dragons.

True Dragons: True dragons are so remote both physically and mentally that draconic characters don’t usually have a special opinion about them beyond what is typical for their society. Actually encountering a dragon for the first time can cause a stirring in the breast of a draconic character, one that she might not understand if she is unaware of her heritage. Such an awakening can lead to an obsession with learning more about dragons or traveling to places where they dwell.

So while theyre listed as 'true dragons' they're simply just referred to as 'dragons'. To me, this shows that there are differences between the 'amount' of dragonblood within ones veins, kobolds obviously have the least, while half-dragons are obviously composed of more dragon than kobolds, yet both share the dragonblooded subtype. Then comes the dragonwrought feat, which im sure everyones familiar with, but lets just list it here anyway for sake of discussion.

"You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race's innate connection to dragons."

Prerequisites: Kobold, 1st level only.

Benefit: You are a dragonwrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103.

So, ive bolded the most important bits id like to discuss. First take note that there were very clear differences between kobolds and half-dragons/draconic characters, -none- of them had the dragon type, they were all either humanoid or dragonblooded. Then comes this feat, now, i see a number of things being changed just from this feat, no longer is the kobold 'part' dragon, since he is losing the dragonblooded subtype, it is no longer applicable to the kobold because dragonblooded is used to classify races that have 'some' draconic heritage in them, but are otherwise not full-on dragons. Then comes the type change, now when i see a type change, i see it as that creature no longer being a member of their previous species, because lets face it, if they were still a member of their previous species, their type never would have changed. They become something new, something more, just like when templates are applied, this feat is essentially a template, except its not described as such, it turns the kobold into a completely new creature at character creation. In this case, the 'template' becomes the base creature.

Now looking back on the True Dragon consideration by a half-dragon, do note that there, and in a large majority of the book, 'true dragons' are not referred to as TRUE dragons, they are simply called 'dragons' because really, there are only a hand full of variations of the dragon genome, half dragons/draconic/dragonkin/dragonblooded/ and dragons. If it isn't one of the aformentioned, then its the latter, a dragon. Now, further into the feat description and the changes it entails, it plainly states "As a dragon", im not sure how many different ways other people interpret it, but to me, i read it as it says, As A Dragon. Okay, so my kobold is no longer a kobold, but a dragon, he no longer has the dragonblooded subtype, thus cant really qualify as a kobold by any means anymore. So if he cannot fall into one of those aformentioned categories, he must be the latter, a dragon.

Keep in mind D&D is very clear about what  is a dragon, and what isnt. The term 'true' dragon is what i feel is confusing everyone and causing such a long drawn out debate, and frankly whoever stuck that into the book should probably be whacked upside the head for causing such debate, because i feel its being taken out of context. But even with the term 'true' dragon being taken out of context, what constitutes a dragon being a 'true' dragon? The only thing i can think of is 1) they must be BORN 100% a dragon and progress through the age categories. Well, isnt that what the dragonwrought feat does? It essentially means your character is born a dragon. Its not something you can take later on, it must be taken at level 1, during character creation. Its not something you grow into, it is a change that takes place before birth so that you are not born as a kobold, but as a dragon, with the dragon type, with their immunities and enhanced vision.

You might argue that well, since they aren't born with wings or a breath weapon that means they are not true dragons. But heres the thing, the 'dragonwrought' feat is a rare, unique, and very special circumstance. Its not meant as something that commonly happens within the kobold community. Not even half-dragons are capable of producing any offspring with the [Dragon] type. So of course because of these unique circumstances, they aren't born with wings and breath weapon fully developed upon the first day they open their eyes. They must grow into them (through feat purchasing). With that said however, the feat itself leaves very little room for alternative interpretation, you lose your dragonblood subtype, meaning you are no longer a 'part-dragon' part something else, and you gain the Dragon type. This to me says the kobold is no longer a kobold, it is a dragon, not a half dragon, or three quarters dragon. If it was, it'd still have the dragonblood subtype. Thats what the subtype is for, to classify creatures with less than 100% pure dragon flowing through their veins.

Im sure this has all been said already but, thats how i read things /shrug

Edit - Note: I still would never allow one to be played in my campaign just from the sheer amount of cheese theyre capable of :p
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 04:10:24 AM by ZombieGirl »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2012, 03:38:01 AM »
well done linklord :)
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Offline Keldar

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2012, 04:35:56 AM »

Die, stupid DWK "debate"!  Die!  Kill it with fire!

Offline Daedroth

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2012, 04:40:30 AM »
Quote
Point 6:  Irrelevant.  It asserts that White is the shortest-lived True Dragon, but since DWKs have a max age based on their Charisma score, they can live indefinitely as long as they can continue to increase their charisma.  As long as they can gain 4 levels in 10 years, they can continue to live.

A white dragon too, and a white dragon always will live more than a Kobold with equal charisma.
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2012, 11:09:25 AM »
The Dragonblooded subtype is usually used for half-dragons, draconic, or otherwise creatures that have some portion of dragon in them, but aren't complete dragons.

Then there is the Dragon type that all actual dragons have.
Great concept analysis, but half-dragons DO get the dragon type, it's in the MM and the SRD. They didn't come up with the dragonblood subtype until much later.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2012, 03:48:50 PM »
Oooh, never seen this one before. Throwing walls of pointless text around. Great point!

Point 1 & 2 are based on you using your own intent rather than reading the book.
...
And I stopped reading right there. Well I mean, I did look for references to the tables on page 17 (sense), 22 (SR/DR/FP), and 24 (spellcasting is innate) and I didn't see them so I took the entire post as a huge pile of BS.

Not to mention as I already stated
1. You're assuming you can qualify for a race
2. Using Exception overrides the base rule for everyone, I believe I've mention how f*cking retarded that concept was by wondering if it can be a question posed in sign up, and saying yes bans your IP from the Internet. I also called it when I said the exception fails, and you're post is proof. You claim you went in depth on it but honestly you didn't.

So your intent trumps (TO) + two house rules (homebrew) + leaving out sections that disagree with you = DWK is TD.
And you wonder why I just can't take you people seriously.

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@ZombieGirl, why do you think I like capitalizing spells, feats, and such? "Dragon" can interchangeably mean dragon (the word), dragon (the creature type) or dragon (the true dragon entry). Welcome to English 101.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Maybe an end to the dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons debate?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2012, 07:56:29 PM »
Soro, what I'm saying with the "exception overrides base rules for everyone" idea is this:  If I make a broad, absolute statement such as "all cups hold water," but then later someone shows me an example of a cup that doesn't hold water, then my previous statement is untrue.  I could still say "Most cups hold water," or "All cups hold water unless they don't," but those would be pointless because a statement that starts with Most is not a good definition, and the latter is a tautology.  Therefore, obviously untrue statements such as "All True Dragons have Frightful Presence, spell resistance, and damage reduction" should be thrown out - because they are untrue.  If the rules said "All True Dragons have Frightful Presence, spell resistance, and damage reduction unless otherwise noted," then you'd have something to stand on.  But that's not what the rules actually say. 

Regarding the lack of quoting the sidebar pg 17, I didn't include it because nowhere in the entire sidebar does it ever say the words "True Dragon".  I actually did reference the sidebar on pg 22, but you must have missed it.  Pg 24 falls under three separate points - first, it doesn't actually say the words "True Dragon" either.  Second, spellcasting should not be considered a requirement to be a True Dragon because Planar dragons don't have it.  Third, Dragonwrought Kobolds do have innate spellcasting anyway, via the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. 

1. You're assuming you can qualify for a race
What does this even mean?  Yes, I assume that Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify as the Dragon race - that's literally what the feat does.  I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. 
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