Author Topic: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)  (Read 37383 times)

Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2019, 07:40:18 PM »
Have put my first draft of my char sheet in the char sheet thread. More filling out of it will be forthcoming. Do feel free to point out anything that seems wrong/weird/you dont like.

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2019, 09:18:16 PM »
Actually, you can do the same thing with Children of the Night for boosting other stuff for cheap on the whole, it's just more time-sensitive that way.

There's a reason Momonga calls cheating on Shalltear using that selfsame trick after all.

Although in all fairness, you probably shouldn't worry about that too much. I mean, the whole "Con drain as a power source" concept is already broken by the time one can afford an use-activated item of restoration (30000 GP if taking Healer into account) and just dominate the shit out of someone with a high Con score. Or even earlier, just grab someone with Naberius bound for the same purpose (with Light Eater and so on, at 8 blood charges per Con point, that someone could even afford to feed their master multiple times a day).

(Note to self. Have blood doll take on Healer levels for multiple rounds of Restoration.)

Really, the higher you go, the easier such constraints are ignored.

EDIT: Uh, looking up Valkyrie I'm having a hard time finding level limits on INDIVIDUAL Einherjar, only if there is more than one deployed at a time.

So if I just happen upon a battlefield where some guy just got killed that was higher level than me... what happens?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 09:33:40 PM by Kuroimaken »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2019, 09:47:50 PM »
Os, you have another PM from me.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2019, 09:59:04 PM »
I'm not sure anyone whose involvement with you consists of habitually having half their blood drained and left to regenerate it is likely to want to stick around... :lmao

Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2019, 10:00:20 PM »
I'm not sure anyone whose involvement with you consists of habitually having half their blood drained and left to regenerate it is likely to want to stick around... :lmao

If popular media is anything to go by, some people are into that.   :smirk

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2019, 10:06:37 PM »
I just think it feels like one of those general leadership-related rules about treatment modifying things/homerules about not abusing or stealing from your cohort might be in place. Emergency situations, maybe, buuuuut using someone as a meal constantly without some sort of compensation...

Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2019, 10:55:12 PM »
Actually, you can do the same thing with Children of the Night for boosting other stuff for cheap on the whole, it's just more time-sensitive that way.

There's a reason Momonga calls cheating on Shalltear using that selfsame trick after all.

Although in all fairness, you probably shouldn't worry about that too much. I mean, the whole "Con drain as a power source" concept is already broken by the time one can afford an use-activated item of restoration (30000 GP if taking Healer into account) and just dominate the shit out of someone with a high Con score. Or even earlier, just grab someone with Naberius bound for the same purpose (with Light Eater and so on, at 8 blood charges per Con point, that someone could even afford to feed their master multiple times a day).

(Note to self. Have blood doll take on Healer levels for multiple rounds of Restoration.)

Really, the higher you go, the easier such constraints are ignored.
No s***, it's not called MINmax for nothing, minimize penalties and maximize bonus. :eh

And the time one can afford a 30 000 GP item is 11th level (standard 66k WBL no more than half GP in a single item), by that time the game does start breaking at the seams.

And Leadership's considered one of the most OP feats around precisely because minions are pretty easy to abuse too. If you're spending minion slots on portable food it means less minion slots for crusader minions to give you extra turns with White Raven Tactics and artificer minions spamming discount equipment.

And again in this game I'm specifically asking the players to hold back a bit and keep themselves in check. Now stuff like stacking multiple ability scores to stats is easy enough to fix, but beyond saying that all your minions have their levels converted to warrior there's not much I can do to keep in check all the possible class combos out there for your personal team. Neither can I make the vampire inflict some super unhealable drain because they may show up in the other side of the field.

EDIT: Uh, looking up Valkyrie I'm having a hard time finding level limits on INDIVIDUAL Einherjar, only if there is more than one deployed at a time.

So if I just happen upon a battlefield where some guy just got killed that was higher level than me... what happens?
At start the Valkyrie can only maintain one lv1 NPC.

And Sacred Phase says " At 3rd level the Valkyrie can maintain up to 2  Einherjars out at a time, as long as their combined ECL isn’t higher than her own Valkyrie level-2. "

It doesn't matter if it's one or many, their combined ECL can't be bigger than your own-2, and if it's just one then their ECL is equal to their level.

You could still send higher level dudes  directly to the afterlife for temporary boosts.

Os, you have another PM from me.
Ok, I'll need a bit to think about it a bit and shold reply whitin the day.

I just think it feels like one of those general leadership-related rules about treatment modifying things/homerules about not abusing or stealing from your cohort might be in place. Emergency situations, maybe, buuuuut using someone as a meal constantly without some sort of compensation...

Yeah, that would definitely qualify for Leadership's Cruelty penalty at least.

So ok, minions are willing to lend you their time but not their other resources. You can't take their items/blood/whatever, you'll need to get supplies from somewhere else.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2019, 11:32:37 PM »
Quote
So ok, minions are willing to lend you their time but not their other resources. You can't take their items/blood/whatever, you'll need to get supplies from somewhere else.

I assume the normal "without compensation" caveat applies? i.e., your minion can make something (like all the minor item creation from under maid) but you need to pay the costs?

Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2019, 11:53:03 PM »
Fair enough.

Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2019, 03:53:50 AM »
Edit: just ignore all this: im already powerful enough without fishing
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 07:22:24 PM by Jarob22 »

Offline ketaro

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2019, 05:48:37 AM »
I wrote a backstory for Decus.

It's god. damn. adorable.

You're welcome.  :cool

Offline Nanshork

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2019, 12:46:44 PM »
Okay, I've got my new class lineup sorted out.

Os, does the Arsenal Space and Energy gained from Modern Maid just stack with what I gain from Monado Maiden?

Offline Kuroimaken

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2019, 01:16:22 PM »
I just think it feels like one of those general leadership-related rules about treatment modifying things/homerules about not abusing or stealing from your cohort might be in place. Emergency situations, maybe, buuuuut using someone as a meal constantly without some sort of compensation...
Outside of blind fanaticism and Nanshork's response, there is always love if Slayer's backstory is anything to go by. Consider this: dude made an entire organization just to keep himself fed. As soon as he found someone that could regenerate lost blood, he completely lost interest in said organization. Vampires are fickle and selfish creatures for a REASON, so anyone willing to follow one is probably doing so out of adoration or even a love of abuse.

Or, consider Mika from Gungrave Overdose. In order for Grave to keep functioning, he needs regular blood transfusions. You can't just buy blood off the corner market (and Grave needs human blood on top of that) so Mika voluntarily donates her blood to the point that she suffers from anaemia. It could also be argued that she's doing it for her own selfish reasons, i.e. she needs Grave around just to stay alive.

Finally, there is the Vampire: The Masquerade explanation - getting bloodsucked by a vampire feels pleasurable, so some people get addicted to the sensation. It's one of the thematic reasons why I picked Sweet Poison as my Saga ability for Monster of Legend. Sure some of the other abilities were more interesting or attractive on some level, but this one just made SENSE to a vampire.

@Osle:

First of all, I was somewhat confused because that limit isn't stated on Chooser of the Slain, but rather on a following ability. Hence why I was asking for clarification.
Second of all, the reason I told you not to worry about it was because I didn't intend to do it. I was just pointing out what could be a potentially troublesome interaction of those powers. That's also why I asked if it was okay for me to have a Blood Doll.

It does beg the question, though. You have a society where vampires are out in the open, that necessitates bloodsucking. Vamps have a right to UNlive, but they need a supply of blood to do so. If trickery is frowned upon and there are no volunteers, how DO vampires get their meals? Animal blood is a lot less filling, and the argument could be made that keeping animals alive just to regularly drain their blood is every bit as cruel as doing that to humans. Is PETA a thing, or have vampires lobbied them out of existence? You can't have bloodbanks because the blood drawn must be fresh, too, so depending on how large a vampire community you have, that literal drain on resources must be rather exhausting.

To be quite honest, a society with literal monsters out in the open like that must necessarily accept a little flexibility in their morals or reach a compromise somewhere.

On a different note: wow, Hector's creature type is a bloody mess. He started as human, then went Outsider (Valkyrie), then Undead (Vampire) then gained Outsider traits again (Monster of Legend).  :lmao
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Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2019, 07:32:23 PM »
Hello Osle,

I'm pretty nearly done with my character - I need to spend the extra +2 left on my crab claw, I need to spend the +5 on the shield side of my crab claw, and I have 10k gold left to spend. I have a couple questions/advice asks (anyone else, feel free to chip in too):

These followers that I get from fortress crab. I cant really see a way to do anything with them at all - with my strength and the bonuses from leadership, I can only get 1hd monsters, which from vermin and plants there is...pretty much nothing useful. Would I be allowed 1hd mobs with LA? If so, how much LA? They'd probably be small sized.

Secondly, with me being gargantuan and all...I may struggle to fit inside places. There's been some discussion on the discord about psionic tattoos of compression, but even when those are cast at ML9, I'd have a max of 9 minutes at Large size. I feel like I need a more permanent way to un-size me in case we need to go into a dungeon/cave/restricted space for a long period of time. I'm perfectly alright with being That Guy Who Gets Left Outside The Shop, but I dont want to be a hindrance too much. Ideas?

Finally, a rough run-down of how I match up against your list of mobs. The Vrock, trolls, fire giant and Bebelith cant hit me unless they nat20. The cleric can spell me with some stuff, the skeletons wont be able to hit me. The shadows will give me a tough time - my touch ac is garbage, and STR drain sucks for me. Young adult blue dragon can hit me with its bite on a 19+, but can also kite me with breath vs my not-great ref save. I'm immune to mind-affecting as crab, so the mind flayers wont be able to do as much as they could, but mind blast will still be able to hit me. I wouldnt say it's 50-50, but I'm definitely vulnerable to various things. Whether I'm too much or not is up to you :)

Now to write the backstory...

Offline ketaro

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2019, 07:43:28 PM »
Jarob, if it helps, in Os' monsters class subforum one of the stickied threads is a FAQ and in there he does provide the option to allow monsters to forego a size increase to just gave a bonus to strength instead.

Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2019, 07:50:06 PM »
If I have to take that I will as a last resort, but I really do want to be this big most of the time, I just dont want to be a nuisance to the party/dm/campaign.

Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2019, 07:59:15 PM »
Ketaro just put me onto deceivingly innocent form - im gonna rework my ability point buy a little to get it.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2019, 03:14:36 AM »
I wrote a backstory for Decus.

It's god. damn. adorable.

You're welcome.  :cool

Ohhh, that's not only pretty good but also fits extremely nicely in the campaign, great work! :clap

(also your character's now one of the main reasons Bonnie's island has such a bad reputation, there's an angel going around confirming it!)

Okay, I've got my new class lineup sorted out.

Os, does the Arsenal Space and Energy gained from Modern Maid just stack with what I gain from Monado Maiden?
Let's say yes for now, if it ends up too strong we can always change it to not stacking.

First of all, I was somewhat confused because that limit isn't stated on Chooser of the Slain, but rather on a following ability. Hence why I was asking for clarification.
Again, the minion limit in Chooser of the Slain is just 1 level 1 NPC.

Second of all, the reason I told you not to worry about it was because I didn't intend to do it. I was just pointing out what could be a potentially troublesome interaction of those powers. That's also why I asked if it was okay for me to have a Blood Doll.

It does beg the question, though. You have a society where vampires are out in the open, that necessitates bloodsucking. Vamps have a right to UNlive, but they need a supply of blood to do so. If trickery is frowned upon and there are no volunteers, how DO vampires get their meals? Animal blood is a lot less filling, and the argument could be made that keeping animals alive just to regularly drain their blood is every bit as cruel as doing that to humans. Is PETA a thing, or have vampires lobbied them out of existence? You can't have bloodbanks because the blood drawn must be fresh, too, so depending on how large a vampire community you have, that literal drain on resources must be rather exhausting.

To be quite honest, a society with literal monsters out in the open like that must necessarily accept a little flexibility in their morals or reach a compromise somewhere.
1-Vampires are still a minuscle part of the population so non-human animals can keep them fed. Indeed it's not as "satisfying" as humanoid blood, but hey most people would enjoy high cuisine and other fancy expensive food every day but have to do with more basic stuff or even go hungry sometimes. Beyond Bonnie's island any "vampire communities" have pretty tiny numbers. There's also Discworld phenomenon where some vampires just focus really hard in some hobby/job to forget their hunger for humanoid blood and don't mind getting by with a chicken for dinner.
2-In the other hand crazy people for everything so yes some do volunteer or sell themselves out, rich vampires will pay a pretty penny for a bite or two, or maybe they'll do you a favor in return, such deals are usually done in the shadows although some places started to include laws (and taxation) for that, including "vampire restaurants" where you can pick what worker to drink from.
3-There's also trickery and some vampires may outright still go "hunting", and that's why Vampire Hunters still have a regular job, because there's always some vampires around that aren't playing nice and need to be dealt with. But now the numbers aren't any worst than humanoids killing other humanoids and people are more likely to die from other "monsters".
4-Still roughly medieval-renaissance times so no PETA and animal rights would be a funny joke. Leather armor and hunting are common. Even human(oid) rights are still a work in progress. Racism is still pretty rampart. Slavery's still legal in some places too so vampires hanging there may just buy "food".

On a different note: wow, Hector's creature type is a bloody mess. He started as human, then went Outsider (Valkyrie), then Undead (Vampire) then gained Outsider traits again (Monster of Legend).  :lmao
Crunchwise, unless you took the monster blooded feats then Valkyrie will erase your base race. Fluffwise you can still claim you were a human once, you just won't get the feat and extra skill points to show for it.

Hello Osle,

I'm pretty nearly done with my character - I need to spend the extra +2 left on my crab claw, I need to spend the +5 on the shield side of my crab claw, and I have 10k gold left to spend. I have a couple questions/advice asks (anyone else, feel free to chip in too):

These followers that I get from fortress crab. I cant really see a way to do anything with them at all - with my strength and the bonuses from leadership, I can only get 1hd monsters, which from vermin and plants there is...pretty much nothing useful. Would I be allowed 1hd mobs with LA? If so, how much LA? They'd probably be small sized.
No LA allowed, but you can use vermin/plant monster classes  to make low level minions using the elite array of stats.

Secondly, with me being gargantuan and all...I may struggle to fit inside places. There's been some discussion on the discord about psionic tattoos of compression, but even when those are cast at ML9, I'd have a max of 9 minutes at Large size. I feel like I need a more permanent way to un-size me in case we need to go into a dungeon/cave/restricted space for a long period of time. I'm perfectly alright with being That Guy Who Gets Left Outside The Shop, but I dont want to be a hindrance too much. Ideas?
Seems like Ketaro already pointed you to Deceivingly Innocent Form which was made to cover such cases among others.

(thanks Ketaro!)

Finally, a rough run-down of how I match up against your list of mobs. The Vrock, trolls, fire giant and Bebelith cant hit me unless they nat20. The cleric can spell me with some stuff, the skeletons wont be able to hit me. The shadows will give me a tough time - my touch ac is garbage, and STR drain sucks for me. Young adult blue dragon can hit me with its bite on a 19+, but can also kite me with breath vs my not-great ref save. I'm immune to mind-affecting as crab, so the mind flayers wont be able to do as much as they could, but mind blast will still be able to hit me. I wouldnt say it's 50-50, but I'm definitely vulnerable to various things. Whether I'm too much or not is up to you :)
Thanks, really appreciate you doing some of those check-ups. Still some details to take in account:
-The Vrock has auto-hit spores and can kite from 880 feet away with telekinesis. Do you have any way to close in the distance or some really good ranged attack or some significant fast healing? Otherwise the Vrock can just wear you down even if it needs natural 20s to hit.

Now to write the backstory...
Looking forward to your crab dynasty!


Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2019, 03:44:32 AM »
I don’t see that I have any way I can deal with that - 800ft range teleport is insane. I don’t see any way I could deal with that with what I’ve got access to either. Is that a problem?

Offline Jarob22

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Re: The Crown's Courtyard (OOC general discussion)
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2019, 03:48:51 AM »
Hang on, how does telekenisis work for attacking? Sure they can use it to get in and spores but how do they use it to get out again and kite? You can’t use it twice in one round surely? sorry, not played against that before