P&I: A Player's Guide to Scrolls for the Aspiring Spell Scribe Discussion Thread

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Papyrus & Ink: A Player's Guide to Scrolls for the Aspiring Spell Scribe


A thread for the Aspiring Spell Scribes to Discuss Scrolls to improve are lovely Handbook.
And to hate on me, because haters will be hate-in.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I hate the haters, and I hate what they hate to hate ... 


Good mention of Chameleon Crafting in Dr#349.
The very obvious choice is Psychic Reformation.


Historically, there has been an argument about
Scrolls working with both Arcane and Divine
as something a Wizard can scribe into their spellbook.
iirc - FrankT is on this bandwagon.
Of course it's overpowered (so what !).
I don't recall the reasoning / argumentation for it.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

[zugschef]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

actually the quill of scribing explicitly has scribe scroll as a prerequisite and you can't emulate feats with umd, which is kinda stupid but raw.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

actually the quill of scribing explicitly has scribe scroll as a prerequisite and you can't emulate feats with umd, which is kinda stupid but raw.

The Scribe Scroll feat is a first level wizard class feature.

[zugschef]

actually the quill of scribing explicitly has scribe scroll as a prerequisite and you can't emulate feats with umd, which is kinda stupid but raw.

The Scribe Scroll feat is a first level wizard class feature.

ha, nice catch.

[edit] hm... so actually with umd you can just emulate spellcasting of classes which know all their spells on their list (such as clerics, druids, rangers,...) and scribe a scroll of a spell not on your list?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm not 100% certain that you can UMD knowing a spell for the quill, but it's potentially viable.  For a warlock, of course, imbue item makes it no problem at all.

Also note that even though a particular quill can only be activated once a day, there doesn't appear to be a restriction on having multiple quills running at once. 

For just under 2k they're a real steal.

[Bastian]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

The main problem with this is the line "Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements." So while the scroll might think you have the Scribe Scroll feat, since you actually don't it can't make anything.

If you wish to make scrolls without the feat The Autoscribe works though it does have multiple drawbacks.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

The main problem with this is the line "Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements." So while the scroll might think you have the Scribe Scroll feat, since you actually don't it can't make anything.

The "effect" is that the quill does some scribing.  It's scribing as if you were scribing it... and as far as the quill knows, "you" are a first level wizard. 

A quill of scribing animates and scribes a scroll for you (of any single spell that you know). Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements.

Saying you need to have the scribe scroll feat after UMDing it into believing you have the scribe scroll feat would also require you to sit around doing nothing for eight hours while it scribes, since you'd treat the 'time requirement' as if you were scribing it as well. 

Also, the 'effects' already explicitly says that upon activation it scribes the scroll for you.  You can't exactly say that activating it wouldn't result in it scribing for you - if nothing else, the specific overrides the general. 

[Bastian]

Note that you don't need to take the Scribe Scroll feat.  You can just pick up a Quill of Scribing and make the DC 21 UMD check to pretend to be a first level wizard. 

Warlocks benefit the most from this trick, obviously.

Similarly, doing a bargain bin dumpster dive for lowest level and caster level versions of spells helps a lot.  The "divine crusader", for example, gets domain spells at CL=spell level.

The main problem with this is the line "Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements." So while the scroll might think you have the Scribe Scroll feat, since you actually don't it can't make anything.

The "effect" is that the quill does some scribing.  It's scribing as if you were scribing it... and as far as the quill knows, "you" are a first level wizard. 

It doesn't matter what the item thinks, as long as you don't actually meet the construction requirements, it can't make shit for you. That's what that line means.

A quill of scribing animates and scribes a scroll for you (of any single spell that you know). Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements.

Saying you need to have the scribe scroll feat after UMDing it into believing you have the scribe scroll feat would also require you to sit around doing nothing for eight hours while it scribes, since you'd treat the 'time requirement' as if you were scribing it as well. 

Except you only have to be able to meet the time requirements and then the quill takes that time in your place. You don't have to sit around doing nothing, you just have to have had the capability to take the time needed to craft the scroll, even if you never actually had any intention of taking that time.

Also trying to reason away a rule doesn't mean that rule doesn't exist, even if that rule complicates something else.

Also, the 'effects' already explicitly says that upon activation it scribes the scroll for you.  You can't exactly say that activating it wouldn't result in it scribing for you - if nothing else, the specific overrides the general.

*facepalm* Yes and in this case the specifics of how the quill makes the scroll is that it does it as if it were you. So what you are saying is 'this general case trumps this specific case because specific trumps general.'

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

*Quietly listens*

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Except you only have to be able to meet the time requirements and then the quill takes that time in your place. You don't have to sit around doing nothing, you just have to have had the capability to take the time needed to craft the scroll, even if you never actually had any intention of taking that time.

By that logic, you can't activate the quill if you have less than eight hours left to live.  Which is clearly not the case. 


Anyway, let's investigate the exact wording

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

"Treat this just as if you were scribing it, including gp cost, XP cost, time, and all other construction requirements.

The quill writes as if you were scribing it. 

Use magic device allows you to use the item as if you had the class features of a wizard.

The "you" that the quill sees is a wizard, not a twelfth level warlock or whatever.

Scribing the scroll is part of (indeed, the whole purpose of) using this magic item.  I don't see why the quill should 'pierce the veil' any more than any other magic item. 

For example, take the Holy Avenger

Holy Avenger

This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.

It provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin’s level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the wielder to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.)

Strong abjuration; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy aura, creator must be good; Price 120,630 gp; Cost 60,630 gp + 4,800 XP.

Let's say a tricksey rogue picks it up, and manages to make the check to convince the holy avenger that he's actually a level 20 paladin.  If he uses the greater dispel magic ability, it's going to be a CL20 greater dispel magic (since he's emulating a level 20 paladin), and not a CL 0 greater dispel magic (since he has no paladin levels).

Basically, all of the item's effects should be treating you as if you were a member of the class.  You can't pick and choose.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Post to me to take note of Enhance Item {EpH} for later

Historically, there has been an argument about
Scrolls working with both Arcane and Divine
as something a Wizard can scribe into their spellbook.
iirc - FrankT is on this bandwagon.
Of course it's overpowered (so what !).
I don't recall the reasoning / argumentation for it.

If you can find me a link to the discussion it would be greatly appreciated.

[sreservoir]

uncanny trickster?

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

uncanny trickster?

That would indeed be worth mentioning.
Thank you, I'll add it to the list of updates I need to make, whenever I gather the willpower for such a thing as making an update.

[Heatwizard]

The quill writes as if you were scribing it. 

Use magic device allows you to use the item as if you had the class features of a wizard.

The "you" that the quill sees is a wizard, not a twelfth level warlock or whatever.

Scribe Scroll is given to Wizard 1s as a bonus feat, not a class feature. UMD can't emulate feats, so you'll need to have Scribe Scroll to even turn the thing on in the first place.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The quill writes as if you were scribing it. 

Use magic device allows you to use the item as if you had the class features of a wizard.

The "you" that the quill sees is a wizard, not a twelfth level warlock or whatever.

Scribe Scroll is given to Wizard 1s as a bonus feat, not a class feature. UMD can't emulate feats, so you'll need to have Scribe Scroll to even turn the thing on in the first place.

Scribe scroll *is* a class feature.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the wizard.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizard’s movements, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail.
Spells

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
Bonus Languages

A wizard may substitute Draconic for one of the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.
Familiar

A wizard can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer can.
Scribe Scroll
At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

See?

[Heatwizard]

Scribe scroll *is* a class feature.

Scribe Scroll
At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

It looks like the class feature is that you're entitled to a bonus feat, which is Scribe Scroll. Scribe Scroll is still just a feat, though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Scribe scroll *is* a class feature.

Scribe Scroll
At 1st level, a wizard gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

It looks like the class feature is that you're entitled to a bonus feat, which is Scribe Scroll. Scribe Scroll is still just a feat, though.

Bonus feats *are* class features.

Scribe Scroll is a class feature.