Author Topic: Safe spell trading protocol, and how by RAW wizards actually do have libraries  (Read 10096 times)

Offline taltamir

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I had encountered some formatting issues with posting this, so here is a cleaned up version on google drive
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14_nGit2j6auDKCPnYEJx-ekXwF9iFh35csCe5hYmoxo/edit?usp=sharing
However, it turned out it was mostly issues with the WYSIWYG editor, once I disabled it I was able to properly format this post.
End edit

I always see people refer to "buying scrolls" in order to learn new spells as a wizard. However, buying scrolls is the worst possible way to acquire new spells known as a wizard. From best to worst they are

1. The best is to acquire spells known via levelup, boosted by the collegiate feat, elven generalist substitution, and aerenal arcanist feat if needed.

2. Free spellbook to spellbook copying. This is either a quest reward, the result of joining a guild, looting it off a corpse of an enemy wizard, or stealing it from a still living enemy wizard or just trading spell X for spell Y (you let me copy haste from your book, I will let you copy fly from mine). The only cost is the magic inks, a mere 100gp per page, or nothing with a blessed book. This is ideal for a party containing more than one wizard.

3. A more pricy way to achieve the above is to a pay a wizard for the right to copy a spell from him. The standard fee for this is 50gp per spell level for the right to copy, plus standard scribing costs (100 GP per page in magic inks, or nothing with blessed book)

4. The final and least effective way is to use a scroll. It destroys a consumable item that cost both GP and XP to create, whose value is at a minimum (for a minimum CL scroll with no expensive material component or XP component) 25*SL*(SL*2-1)+100*SL
Where SL = Spell level.
SL*2-1 = Caster level.
The +100*SL is waived if you have blessed book.
This cost skyrockets for a spell with an expensive material component or XP cost, such as wish. (a scroll of wish costs an additional 25,000gp beyond the baseline 9th level spell cost due to the extra 5000XP it requires to create such a scroll)

Thus, scribing a 9th level spell with no material or XP component costs the following with each method:
1. free
2. 900gp, or free with blessed book.
3. 1350gp, or 450gp with blessed book.
4. 4725gp, or 3825gp with blessed book. +cost of spell's material component + 5gp per XP cost to cast the spell.

As you can clearly see, scrolls are the worst way to learn a new spell.
Interestingly with a blessed book you turn a profit on levelup by putting the free levelup spells in a mundane book (or better, copybooks, explained later) and then copying it for free into your blessed book. You could then sell the mundane books for 50gp a page. However, it is better to keep them as a backup.
Additionally you could break the economy by buying a blank blessed book, filling it up with spells, and then selling it. But you really shouldn’t.

Safe spell trading protocols:
Dangers of traditional methods: when a wizard sells access to his spellbook for purpose of copying spell to another wizard s/he does not know or trust, there are various risks to both the buyer and seller.

The buyer might be trying to steal the seller’s spellbook, the seller might plant a trap his spellbook to incapacitate and rob the buyer, both have to meet and do their research in a distracting public place, or one of them needs access to the other’s sanctum. Once they familiarize each other with their spellbooks, and know where the traps are, they can kill each other with impunity to steal the other’s spellbook. Also, the seller should spend the whole day with the buyer to ensure that his book does not leave his sight. Even if the buyer himself is not hostile, a third party might target both when the seller has no access to his book.

All of these possibilities are rather unlikely, most wizards would not resort to such trickery, especially if they wish to share spells with other wizards in the future. But the possibility exists. Therefore, a series of simple protocols to allow safe and lucrative sharing of spells between wizards must be planned.

Protocol: A blank spellbook costs a mere 15gp, a wizard can copy a spell he already learned from his spellbooks to a new book and pay only half the price in magic inks and take half time (2 spells a day). Which means it takes 50gp per page to scribe. This 50gp is not wasted, as a spellbook is valued for sale at 50gp per filled page. The typical cost for “the right to copy” a spell from another’s spellbook is also 50gp per spell level (page). This all adds up very neatly.

Spells (with the exception of very low level spells such as cantrips) should each be copied into a single spellbook, called a copybook. Here is a chart detailing the cost of creating such copybooks, their resale value/right of copy value (the two are the same)

Spell Level|cost to create copybook|value of copybook = copyright price = total price to a buyer with blessed book|scribe cost for buyer|total cost to buyer without blessed book
1|65|50|100|150
2|115|100|200|300
3|165|150|300|450
4|215|200|400|600
5|265|250|500|750
6|315|300|600|900
7|365|350|700|1050
8|415|400|800|1200
9|465|450|900|1350

When a buyer contacts a seller requesting to buy a spell, the seller can hand him a book containing only that spell. The buyer pays in advance for the copyright cost, and puts down a deposit equal to cost of creating the copybook. Thus a person wishing to copy a 5st level spell will pay 250gp, and 265gp deposit. He will receive his deposit back when he returns the copybook to the seller.

At worst, a dishonest buyer steals the copybook. The seller made full profit, but has lost one day’s work due to the theft (time it took to create the copybook). (had the deposit not included the 15gp cost of a blank book, the buyer would have actually made a 15gp profit by stealing said book; so even though the market value is X, the deposit should be X+15gp)

At worst, a dishonest seller has disappeared with the deposit. The buyer can then keep then seller’s copybook to sell the same spells to others. He has lost the choice on whether to make a copybook for that particular spell, but has gained 1 day of labor.
In either worst case scenario the buyer and the seller do not lose any money

These worst case scenarios assume no true malicious intent; it is always possible for either of the two to really be assassins trying to gain access to the victim. Either could place a deadly trap in the copybook, or the seller could provide a fake copybook written with non-magical ink (and thus useless).

The solution to that is quite simple, conjure a celestial monkey (summon monster 1) and have him read the copybook alone and away from others. It will trigger any traps; at absolute worst destroying the book.
At higher levels, the exchange can be made via a lantern archon who has been lesser planar bound.

Minor extra savings: Each spellbook contains 100 pages, weighs 3 lbs, and costs 15gp by RAW. It might be possible to create custom “copybook” with just the right number of pages, at a lower cost. (say that 15gp is actually 5gp for the cover and 1sp per page … a 10 page book would thus be 6gp)… not a big issue really.

Roleplaying Info:
Common criticism:
Quote
"Oh, no! My wizard won't have access to every arcane spell in existence, for free, despite that such a strategy would have invalidated all conflict within the setting.”
to be fair, there are only a FEW spells you must have. a wizard determined to break the game can “win DnD” even without thousands of spells. and ~90% of the most broken spells are in core anyways. If anything, scribing a ton of spells is a trap, it wastes your money and time, which could have been spent better (time can be spent killing monsters for XP or casting spells for money, money can be used to buy items that increase CL or Int, etc).

For the leery DM:
If you feel this is overpowered there are ways to rein it in. You can say that EVERY wizard trades spells via copybooks in their free time and that the free spells gained on levelup actually come from the profit such trading provides. Sometimes this also means a wizard buys spells copybooks with higher level spells that s/he cannot use yet, so if you are in a dungeon and leveled up, it is assumed you had copybooks of your new spells which you carried with you. All those buying, selling, and hoarding is abstracted and assumed to only gain enough cash to finance the acquisition of those free spells at levelup. Every wizard is also assumed to have a wizard library with a copybook per each spell they know, and some they haven't learned yet.
Feats that give extra spells on levelup (ex: collegiate), actually means that you spend extra time trading spells rather than extra time training (some other feat).

This method of reining it in does not necessarily mean banning the acquisition of new spells via this protocol. It merely means that a PC cannot just point out this method to the DM and say “give me a bunch of free money”, if they want to make a profit with this they have to spend time in game positioning themselves as a major supplier, the same as if they wanted to run a merchant guild who corners the corn market. They can still use their WBL to buy extra spells beyond those that are granted by your class levels and feats as normal. (aka, it is assumed to you trade enough to finance the acquisition of 2 new spells per level; buying more cost WBL).

With some calculations, you can determine how many "buyers" each wizard will come across per week to maintain the 2 free spells per level if you do want to micro-manage this aspect of the game.

World building and Role-playing implications:
Every wizard actually has a library instead of one book. The library is made up of copybooks of spells known (created by yourself, or purchased), and copybooks you purchased of spells you don't know yet (level too high).

It also means that you can't just point at this thread and say to the DM "give me more money/spellbooks"... rather, you have to actually do something in game to position yourself as a high volume trader in spells (just as you would have to do something to position yourself as a high volume trader in magic items, silk, jewels, etc etc). A "low volume trader" (someone who never spent in character time setting up shop) is the traditional adventurer wizard, whose copybook trading merely funds his 2 free spells per level, nothing more, nothing less.

NPC wizards who never adventure probably have 2 of each "copybook" of their known spells; potentially in different locations. They use multiple small books to memorize spells each morning.
While adventurer wizards probably have 1 travelbook with all their spells (which they carry) and in additional to that 1 copybook per each spell (at their sanctum).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 08:59:43 PM by taltamir »
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Offline taltamir

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:14:36 PM by taltamir »
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Offline FBT

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Cool idea, and I see most high magic style campaigns (the kind of campaigns I most enjoy to play and to DM) having worked out a system like this.

One more thing: The title and content of this thread reminded me of this set of ideas, most of all the third one: http://squid314.livejournal.com/311759.html?thread=2301903.
Indeed, the whole "magic copyright" concept is very deep and rich in possibilities.

Offline kitep

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My usual DM has wizard guilds -- you pay your fees, and you can copy spells.  It hasn't come up, but I always assumed that if you didn't return the book you're copying from, higher level wizards would hunt you down and make an example of you.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Great ideas. I especially like that it basically just offers a logical extrapolation of the existing RAW, and both offers practical opportunities for PCs (cut costs in learning new spells) and rich RP opportunities for DMs. Bravo!  :clap
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Offline taltamir

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thank you for your kind words everyone.
And thanks for the link FBT
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:34:21 PM by taltamir »
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Offline Libertad

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This is one of the best things I've seen.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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I get the feel of specific page # cites, all throughout this.
 :clap mega +1

This was assumed background downtime, no more.
Magic Marts and Spellcasting Services, would require
much more detailing.


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Offline dither

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I think this option would also work well in a historical setting that predates bookbinding -- where a wizard's "spellbook" is basically just a bigger, heavier scroll than the consumable type.

There are some good thoughts here!


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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Have you considered making a twin topic on Gitp?
Please, call me Count :).

Offline taltamir

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Have you considered making a twin topic on Gitp?

I actually originally posted this years ago on gitp forums.

@Dither: I agree

@Awakened_D_M_Golem: thank you
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 09:21:07 PM by taltamir »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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'Course screwing with this system is absolutely gonna happen
by Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil NPCs ; "should" with PCs.

There's room for a little Prisoners Dilemma mini-game and
throwing some Bluff / Sense Motive + Diplomacy (minus the "n")
in there too.  You'd never get perfect divinations as to what
the other Wizard will do.


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Yeah good idea, maybe the Animal Companion too?
 :rolleyes ... sure.
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Offline Slippery_Chicken

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What if a Wizard simply buys a Blessed Book and writes out at least two copies of each spell he knows (one for personal use, the rest as sales inventory), then when someone asks to copy a spell, he just removes the pages which contain that spell and sells them to the buyer? Dividing the cost of a Blessed Book (12,500gp) by the number of pages inside it (1,000 pages) means that each page of spells is by itself only 12.5gp (since you can write spells into a Blessed Book for free). You might even offer a small incentive (so the end cost is the same as normal borrowing) if the buyer returns the pages in good condition (i.e. not covered in Explosive Runes).

A guildhouse could do the same thing, having each of its members contribute spells to the "inventory". Then when some sketchy-looking adventurer-mage bursts in asking to copy a boatload of spells, they simply take his gold (probably the default borrowing cost + 12.5gp per page), hand him some pages, and send him on his way. They might even include a bit of paper which mentions that he can get 12.5gp for each page returned in good condition.


tl:dr: Do the same thing you said, but the seller cuts pages out of a Blessed Book instead of selling default spellbooks.

There's room for a little Prisoners Dilemma mini-game and
throwing some Bluff / Sense Motive + Diplomacy (minus the "n")
in there too.  You'd never get perfect divinations as to what
the other Wizard will do.

The thing about the prisoner's dilemma is that when you have repeat trials1, cooperation becomes the dominant choice. The value of future cooperation2 outweighs the short-term benefits from betrayal. An excellent example of this principle is how humans cooperate enough to to reap tremendous benefits from groups/civilization, even though the prisoner's dilemma (or rather a shallow reading thereof) would suggest that society should collapse into chaos as everyone betrays each other for personal gain.


1Like living in a society where other people know whether you cooperated or defected, and use that information to influence future interactions with you.

2(not just from the "wronged" party, but from everyone who knows you betrayed him, and "cooperation" includes things like "not being murdered/imprisoned")
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:12:09 PM by Slippery_Chicken »

Offline taltamir

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What if a Wizard simply buys a Blessed Book and writes out at least two copies of each spell he knows (one for personal use, the rest as sales inventory), then when someone asks to copy a spell, he just removes the pages which contain that spell and sells them to the buyer? Dividing the cost of a Blessed Book (12,500gp) by the number of pages inside it (1,000 pages) means that each page of spells is by itself only 12.5gp (since you can write spells into a Blessed Book for free). You might even offer a small incentive (so the end cost is the same as normal borrowing) if the buyer returns the pages in good condition (i.e. not covered in Explosive Runes).

If the DM allows it, sure. The DM might also allow crafting a 10 page (instead of 1000 page) blessed books for 1% of the cost.

But remember that by raw a physically broken magical item stops working, and that a blessed book is made using the "secret page" spell. So it is very easy for him to rule that cutting out pages counts as physically breaking the item and causes all the spells to disappear.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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There's room for a little Prisoners Dilemma mini-game and
throwing some Bluff / Sense Motive + Diplomacy (minus the "n")
in there too.  You'd never get perfect divinations as to what
the other Wizard will do.

The thing about the prisoner's dilemma is that when you have repeat trials1, cooperation becomes the dominant choice. The value of future cooperation2 outweighs the short-term benefits from betrayal. An excellent example of this principle is how humans cooperate enough to to reap tremendous benefits from groups/civilization, even though the prisoner's dilemma (or rather a shallow reading thereof) would suggest that society should collapse into chaos as everyone betrays each other for personal gain.

1Like living in a society where other people know whether you cooperated or defected, and use that information to influence future interactions with you.

2(not just from the "wronged" party, but from everyone who knows you betrayed him, and "cooperation" includes things like "not being murdered/imprisoned")

True, although I have a hard time assuming Kuo-toa Wizards would fully cooperate, or Faeries (they don't find my kitty avatar so cute).
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Offline TuggyNE

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So it is very easy for him to rule that cutting out pages counts as physically breaking the item and causes all the spells to disappear.
But that's damage, not breaking, and magic items function just fine until they're completely damaged.
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Offline taltamir

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So it is very easy for him to rule that cutting out pages counts as physically breaking the item and causes all the spells to disappear.
But that's damage, not breaking, and magic items function just fine until they're completely damaged.

Ok, how much damage specifically per page cut?
And why do the individual pages continue to be magical? (after all, you cannot cut off 2 feet from the top of a magical longsword and put a handle on it to have 2 magical shortswords)
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Offline Gazzien

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So it is very easy for him to rule that cutting out pages counts as physically breaking the item and causes all the spells to disappear.
But that's damage, not breaking, and magic items function just fine until they're completely damaged.

Ok, how much damage specifically per page cut?
And why do the individual pages continue to be magical? (after all, you cannot cut off 2 feet from the top of a magical longsword and put a handle on it to have 2 magical shortswords)
Damage to the page after you scribe the spell wouldn't matter, would it? Because you write spells on nonmagical paper already...

Offline spacemonkey555

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The blessed book is only damaged and would continue to function, but the page is no longer part of a magic item, and has no extractable benefit. The secret page spell worked on the book, imo, not the page, regardless of how the normal spell would work.

Offline Slippery_Chicken

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So it is very easy for him to rule that cutting out pages counts as physically breaking the item and causes all the spells to disappear.
But that's damage, not breaking, and magic items function just fine until they're completely damaged.

And why do the individual pages continue to be magical? 

The pages don't need to be magical at all. They just need the spell written on them, which already happened.