Author Topic: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)  (Read 9871 times)

Offline Libertad

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So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« on: July 04, 2015, 01:58:19 AM »

For those not in the know, back in 2000 Necromancer Games published a megadungeon for 3rd Edition, Rappan Athuk.  It underwent a series of upgrades over the years until the publisher Frog God Games (who inherited several of Necromancers' staff) published versions for Pathfinder and Swords & Wizardry in 2012.  The adventure was hailed for its lethality along with having Orcus as an end-boss; being released around the same time as "World's Largest Dungeon," it had to distinguish itself from its lackluster counterpart with the slogan "This dungeon may not be the world's largest, but it's certainly the deadliest!"  It's definitely made in the spirit of  a kind of old-school playstyle, where death is cheap and the crux of the game is go exploring underground passages in search of gold and treasure.



Rappan Athuk is the Dungeon of Graves.  Basically in ancient times the forces of evil had a stronghold in the city of Tsar in the mortal world.  The combined forces of light gathered together to destroy them, and the remnants of Orcus' soldiers retreated.  They found a massive underground complex of chambers in a far-off land to rebuild and conduct unholy rituals, as well as a mass grave and mausoleum on top of the hill above the chambers.  Successive series of adventurers tried to venture into the area, only to die horrible deaths.

I have the Pathfinder version, obviously, which has new content not present in the 3.X one.  It's a mammoth volume (676 pages), but even skimming through it there's quite a few things which leapt out to me.

1. This thing's old.  As in 25 years of playtesting old; if I had to guess, Rappan Athuk's one of those generational campaigns like Castle Greyhawk which got reused for plenty of gaming groups until the material was incorporated into a larger whole.  A lot of the Frog God folks are first-generation D&D players who also like Pathfinder, so they tend to blend elements of both D20 and old-school D&D into their work.

2. There's a one-page list of grave markers in Rappan Athuk's top level.  They all bear names of players and playtesters, including several which are obvious Internet handles such as drnate29 and dragnmoon.  There's also a blank obituary in back to fill out for PC names, level, and how they met their end.  To that end, the adventure encourages making several back-up PCs just in case.  It's really playing up the lethality.

3. There are several "shops" of sorts in Rappan Athuk for the PCs to rest, restock, and sell their treasures.  The ones I've found are quite neat, such an Underdark market, and an inn run by a bipedal roachman who charges exorbitant prices for beds and rations (supply is low and demand is high several levels down in the dungeon).

4. As is to be expected, there are several "fuck you, unbeatable boss time!" moments in the megadungeon.  Although each major level/section of Rappan Athuk has a recommended PC level, there's a few encounters which are way above the limit.  I've already count three dormant liches of 18th-20th level and a vampire lord of similar CR, although in the cases I've spotted they were often hidden behind secret doors or in magically warded sections.  On level 3 (for level 8 parties), there's a 10% chance of a random encounter with a purple worm in one of the first cave rooms (although there's a warning written in Common saying "beware of purple worms!" in the room before it).

5. The main plotline of this dungeon beyond "loot shit" is to kill Orcus.  There are various main temples throughout the megadungeon which, if destroyed, can sap the demon lord's power in the final battle.  On that note, Orcus himself resides in Area 15, and the author notes that no players or playtesters ever made it this far, so it hasn't been playtested.  Additionally, a portion of the quoted text at the beginning of said area rubs me the wrong way:

Quote
This level is the final page of adventure within the halls of Rappan Athuk. In 25 years of GMing and playtesting, it has never been reached, let alone conquered. This level should be treated as the epic finale of many years of play. It is neither forgiving nor fair. Here in this small pocket plane, connected to both the Material Plane and the Abyss itself, the party encounters the avatar of a demon prince with its full powers and many servants. This level is incredibly dangerous, and no one may survive travel here even without encountering Orcus himself. Remember, this is not a computer roleplaying game. There are no cheat codes to kill Orcus. The PCs are not supposed to win. If they have survived this far, they are powerful and foolhardy. Yet Orcus’ avatar should prove more than a match for them. This is the end.

Good luck! A map of this level is depicted in Map RA–15.

In the table-top community and especially among the "old guard" I tend to notice an underlying contempt for, or need to differentiate themselves from, computer RPGs.  Considering how easy it is to make an unwinnable encounter for the GM, even in tabletop it kind of begs the question "what's the point?"  I get that Rappan Athuk is supposed to be lethal, but if the end boss is meant to be "total party kill," then why include it?  I mean, by this point the PCs are at their farthest in the megadungeon or played through the majority of its challenges, so technically they already reached the end, right?

Still, there's no "you die, no save."  Orcus has stats as well as some minions, so he can be conceivably killed.  And treasure, too.

6. On a more positive note, I found some interesting and amusing content.

Quote
BANANA OF HOLDING

Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 1,200 gp; Weight 1 lb.

DESCRIPTION
This dried and leathery banana peel is stitched up the sides, with an opening at the top about the diameter of a coin. Only something small enough to fit through the opening can be placed into the banana of holding, because if the sidestitching is torn the item’s magic is lost. The banana holds a maximum of 40 pounds of such small items, and always weighs the same as a banana peel. It is also quite slippery, as most banana peels are.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 300 gp

The Banana of Holding sadly, is only found in a jungle cavern's room of cavernous niches.  And can only be found on a d% roll on a 96-00 result.  There's a shrine to a fire monkey god close by, so it's not just totally random.

Some of the room encounter names are pretty funny, such as 16 Trolls and a Jug of Alchemy!  It's basically what it sounds like.

7. There's a lot more content beyond the megadungeon, such as an outpost to restock at and some locations and mini-adventures in the surrounding wilderness.  It's actually set in an implied setting shared across Frog God Games products, the Stoneheart River Valley.

One which caught my eye was the Archwizard Prestige Class, which you must be at least 15th level to take and the PrC goes up to 10 levels.  It has interesting stuff such as ignoring 10 gp worth of material components/PrC level, permanent unseen servant, cast multiple spells in the same round, and other feats of primal magic power.

8. It had one of the most successful KickStarters in the table-top fandom.



I'm almost tempted to run it myself, preferably with some CharOps folks from here, on account of its vaunted lethality by the authors and other games who've played it on the 'net.  I like its intended playstyle of throwing in new PCs when the old ones fail like some kind of Red Shirt generator; instead of a campaign ending on account of a TPK, it kind of reminds me of Dark Souls where with death you just have to retrace your steps and try again and (hopefully) succeed this time.

I may or may not post more impressions as I further read this thing.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 02:05:36 AM by Libertad »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2015, 02:20:04 PM »
I have a certain wariness around these kind of "challenge adventures."  Presuming they don't just break the rules all over the place (like Tomb of Horrors does, I think), which is it's own kind of frustration, they seem like an invitation to go crazy charopp-wise.  It feels like a dare to go out of my way to break the game, and then at that point we're kind of playing a different sort of game. 

They say there's no cheat code, but Pun-Pun, Omnfiscer, 500d6 Nasty Gentleman, HIVE, or even just a potent Gish with a Persistent Antimagic Field that doesn't affect herself might be the equivalent.  I can see the fun of breaking out relatively powerful builds that I usually restrain myself, but the machoness of something like this makes me want to take them down a notch by playing some of the hideously broken things that my google-fu can uncover.  And, then I've got to find the dividing line between something "kinda broken" and "zomg! broken it even reduces the so-called 'challenge dungeon' to triviality." 

Offline Solo

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2015, 02:57:22 PM »
Do it on livestrean for charity :p

I'd pitch in.
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Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2015, 08:36:36 PM »
I would be half-tempted to stat out a balls-to-the-wall Kell for this.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2015, 08:55:21 PM »
If you need people to play in a theoretical charity event, I'll stat out a paladin (or, more likely, a bizarrely extended family of paladins with strange family resemblances :P) to the best of my abilities. Or even not for a charity event. This seems amusing.

Offline linklord231

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Offline Craiconn

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 08:58:55 PM »
The Rappan Athuk reboot for Pathfinder has been crazy, crazy, CRAZY popular with the Pathfinder community.  Of the maybe 15 players who have RA-experience (over the years) that I've had somewhat-serious dialogues with about RA .... I'd say 12-13 of them are ardent fans and are stoked about the upcoming RA accessory stuff that Frog God is gonna publish down the road.  The Paizo board folks who traffic in quality 3PP products also gush about Rappan Athuk.

I played some of it back in its 3.5 incarnation ... and I did have fun, although I wouldn't call it world-class.  The TPK complaining I heard didn't apply to my group because of our extreme prowess at tactical collaboration and CharOp. 

I like the premise of Frog God Games modules and campaigns.  Especially since some 3PPs tend to publish easy cakewalks on a consistent basis.  To me, TPK Grindhouses just mean "CharOp Folks gonna be challenged, but will live".

Offline Libertad

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 11:16:28 PM »
Do it on livestrean for charity :p

I'd pitch in.

This...is actually a pretty good idea.  Of course, my own gaming schedule is pretty much taken, and I've never livestreamed before, so it's probably something which won't happen soon, but it's an intriguing thought.

We could have folks doing pledges.  Players saying "I pledge $1 for every PC of mine who gets killed," DMs pledging $4 for every dungeon level cleared, stuff like that.

Yes, I've been watching Four Job Fiesta, so that's kind of what's inspiring me at the moment.

The Rappan Athuk reboot for Pathfinder has been crazy, crazy, CRAZY popular with the Pathfinder community.  Of the maybe 15 players who have RA-experience (over the years) that I've had somewhat-serious dialogues with about RA .... I'd say 12-13 of them are ardent fans and are stoked about the upcoming RA accessory stuff that Frog God is gonna publish down the road.  The Paizo board folks who traffic in quality 3PP products also gush about Rappan Athuk.

I played some of it back in its 3.5 incarnation ... and I did have fun, although I wouldn't call it world-class.  The TPK complaining I heard didn't apply to my group because of our extreme prowess at tactical collaboration and CharOp. 

I like the premise of Frog God Games modules and campaigns.  Especially since some 3PPs tend to publish easy cakewalks on a consistent basis.  To me, TPK Grindhouses just mean "CharOp Folks gonna be challenged, but will live".

There are some RA levels which don't seem as lethal as others, such as one with a bunch of hobgoblin troops as the main opposition, although I suppose variety is good, too.

I also got The Slumbering Tsar Saga as a present for my upcoming birthday.  I'm requesting some of the more expensive sourcebooks/modules as presents because I wouldn't otherwise get them as a regular purchase. :devil

Tsar recycles quite a bit of art from Rappan Athuk, although it's 900+ pages so it's got more than its fair share of original material.  Like RA it also has obituaries in back, although it's selling point is less "PC-grinder dungeon" and more "city of evil with ties to Orcus."  Instead of being one megadungeon with outlying environs, Tsar is a ruined city, several big dungeons (including a giant orcus-statue dungeon), and outlying environs.

Interestingly Slumbering Tsar is still the most expensive D20 product (not just Pathfinder) as a digital purchase which isn't part of a bundle, and it was released way back in late 2009.  I've noticed that the first two years of Pathfinder's existence, there was much less third party material.  Not just that, a lot of its more innovation material (like the Cerulean Seas setting) dated from this era as well.  Judging by products organized by release date on Drive-Thru, the third party shovelware treadmill really picked up steam around 2012-2013.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:20:11 PM by Libertad »

Offline Solo

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 11:29:54 PM »
Quote
Players saying "I pledge $1 for every PC of mine who gets killed," DMs pledging $4 for every dungeon level cleared, stuff like that.
I will end up contributing 0 dollars.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline Libertad

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 11:51:10 PM »
I will end up contributing 0 dollars.

I think the way Fiesta does it is that Pledges are done in addition to the viewers contributing to charity.  It's a way to engage the players by having pledges fulfilled by certain requirements beyond just "watch us play and give money."

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2015, 12:03:54 AM »
Slumbering Tsar sounds pretty interesting.  But, I think I might just be a sucker for the crumbling ruined city environ.

Offline Craiconn

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 01:13:32 AM »
I just took a gander at Slumbering Tsar over at RPGNow.  Holy Smoke ... you ain't kidding about the cost.  And it's also sold in a myriad array of $9.99 sub-modules.  Wow.  Anyone GMing this bad boy better have some serious chops.

I do have to say though, the basic premise of the series looks mighty alluring.  I would love to join an online PbP for Slumbering Tsar.  I'd even chip-in some $ to help fund the expenditure of this gargantuan series. 

Offline Solo

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2015, 01:39:11 AM »
I will end up contributing 0 dollars.

I think the way Fiesta does it is that Pledges are done in addition to the viewers contributing to charity.  It's a way to engage the players by having pledges fulfilled by certain requirements beyond just "watch us play and give money."
Can I kill other people's characters for charity?
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: So I bought Rappan Athuk... (spoilers, duh)
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2016, 09:36:23 PM »
If sigging your own posts was a thing, that would be Solo's sig.

Also, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say that I'd play/stream it. People do this on twitch all the time.

Furthermore, to set a 'line' for what is fair game, CO-wise, I propose the fixes in my MetaCompendium. That would force everyone into tier 3 or 4 to start and help appease the "cheat-codes" hate of TO or easily break-able builds.