Author Topic: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)  (Read 13268 times)

Offline bhu

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2015, 01:32:05 AM »
 
Quote
I identify with Smith's "Theory of Moral Sentiments" and Nietzsche's general works, along with the Bible on moral issues.

How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance?

Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2015, 01:52:54 AM »
How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance?

What cognitive dissonance?
If one has read all three he will know that they are quite compatible, even complementary, on most all moral concepts.
Well, provided one actually comprehends them, which can be more difficult than reading them in the first place.

Why is it you feel they are incompatible?

Offline bhu

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2015, 01:59:38 AM »
Smith and Nietzche are not entirely incompatible, Niezche and the bible on the other hand requires some hoop jumping.  Ignoring the contradictions inherent in the bible require a great deal more. 

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2015, 02:23:57 AM »
Why is it you feel they are incompatible?
Allow me to illustrate the problem with a question: What does the Bible say?
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2015, 02:43:25 AM »
The Torah contains laws against rape, including requirements to distinguish rape from being caught being a slut and claiming rape later.

OK, so sometime in the 2nd millennia BCE at the earliest.

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Do animals rape each other?  In one sense, yes, since animals are not capable of consent the way we define it, therefore all animal sex is rape,

As we define it, but animals that go into heat do invite sexual activity, as do certain primates.

It's still rape if she's ovulating. Or if she's wet and horny. Or if his penis is erect. Or if he finishes. No matter what, physical arousal does not constitute consent.

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That's a slightly ridiculous way of looking at it, but without knowing how animals think about sex it's at least consistent. Even if we normalize their behavior to ours, I've seen pets engage in sexual activities where one participant is actively fighting back and trying to escape. Natural selection teaches us that the willingness to rape gives you a higher chance of passing on your genes than the unwilling.  Anyway, where this is all going is that without any kind of laws forbidding it or any kind of official marriage institutions, it seems likely that rape would have been quite widespread until civilization came along.  In other words, we're all descended from rapists.


Yes, but what of relevance is that unless we presume some form of inherited guilt?

Since we're talking about the inherent violence of man (or lack thereof) I don't think it's irrelevant to point out that natural selection favors the violent.  And where prescriptions against murder are among the oldest laws (if not the oldest), prescriptions against rape are largely absent for much of history and only slowly evolved into something resembling the current social model. What I'm saying is that the concept of "rape" vs. "consent" is socially constructed and would not have been self-evident to pre-state humans. It's another form of violence we can thank civilization for reducing, and it's one that doesn't fit into MrWolfe's analysis on lack of hunter-gatherer motives for violence.
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Offline Solo

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2015, 02:59:33 AM »
It's still rape if she's ovulating. Or if she's wet and horny. Or if his penis is erect. Or if he finishes. No matter what, physical arousal does not constitute consent.

It's also rape if God says it's ok.

Quote from: Deuteronomy 20:17
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2015, 11:30:41 AM »
Let me start by saying it's a heinous act that is worse than murder.
You can get better from being raped.
You can't get better from being murdered.


Do animals rape each other?  In one sense, yes, since animals are not capable of consent the way we define it, therefore all animal sex is rape
A mare will kick a stallion she doesn't fancy even if she's in heat. That's a thing breeders have to take in account, in particular when a stallion worth millions may get a broken leg.

Hyenas are infamous for the fact the females are basically immune to unwilling sex. Is physically impossible for the specie's male to get his dick inside if the female isn't actively collaborating.

There's monkey species where the females gather in groups precisely to protect themselves from lone agressive males.

Countless animals besides humans have complex mating rituals where the male does a bunch of ridiculous non-violent stuff to get the female to come to him and have sex.


Natural selection teaches us that the willingness to rape gives you a higher chance of passing on your genes than the unwilling.  Anyway, where this is all going is that without any kind of laws forbidding it or any kind of official marriage institutions, it seems likely that rape would have been quite widespread until civilization came along.  In other words, we're all descended from rapists.
You ever heard the expression "oldest profession in the world"?

Well it's true. Even before we started farming, women were trading sex for food and most probably other services. That's pretty much the reason why women have developed breasts and will get wet and horny even when not in their ovulating period. Sex for humans is not just a breeding tool, is also a bargaining chip.

You know what that also means? It means that many of our male ancestors would actually prefer to engage in peaceful trade to get a fuck rather than forcing the woman to do it.

Because although some sick souls do get hard on the pain and suffering of others, most of us actually find that quite the turn-off.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 11:33:51 AM by oslecamo »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2015, 11:54:31 AM »
Then why is non-consensual sex so prevalent in society and nature?  Something like 70% of ducklings are the result of rape.  I have ducks living in our pond behind our house, and yeah, the females generally run away, trying to fight back, and fail.  Every once in a while they are willing.  Dolphins are notorious for their raping ways, as are lions.  The species that don't/can't rape (either male on female or the much more rare female on male/female and slightly less rare male on male) are the exception, not the rule.
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2015, 01:18:52 PM »
Ignoring the contradictions inherent in the bible require a great deal more.

Just what contradictions are you referring to?
For most, see below.

Allow me to illustrate the problem with a question: What does the Bible say?

According to Hillel the Elder:
Quote
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn

So again, what do you see as incompatible?

It's also rape if God says it's ok.

Quote from: Deuteronomy 20:17
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Assuming of course that passage actually sanctions rape.
Given other parts of Deuteronomy, it does not, and so rape does not have divine sanction.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2015, 01:35:55 PM »
OK, so sometime in the 2nd millennia BCE at the earliest.

Correct.
It may appear in Hammurabi's Code and such, but I'm not familiar enough with them to be able to find the citations without some effort.

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It's still rape if she's ovulating. Or if she's wet and horny. Or if his penis is erect. Or if he finishes. No matter what, physical arousal does not constitute consent.

Oslecamo mostly covered this.
I will add that an animal in hear requires sex to relieve the physical condition. This may not be "consent" as sapient beings recognize it, but it is very much the animal seeking out sex. Trying to parse that out as "rape" is projecting way beyond reason, and winds up delegitimizing the concept of rape.

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Since we're talking about the inherent violence of man (or lack thereof) I don't think it's irrelevant to point out that natural selection favors the violent.  And where prescriptions against murder are among the oldest laws (if not the oldest), prescriptions against rape are largely absent for much of history and only slowly evolved into something resembling the current social model. What I'm saying is that the concept of "rape" vs. "consent" is socially constructed and would not have been self-evident to pre-state humans. It's another form of violence we can thank civilization for reducing, and it's one that doesn't fit into MrWolfe's analysis on lack of hunter-gatherer motives for violence.

Okay, I didn't see where you were going with that.
In response, and this covers dman's question, two things:
1. One element of the Bible, and Smith, and Nietzsche, is that they suggest it can be demonstrated that not being a "jerk" (rapist or murderer or thief or other anti-social undesirable or general sociopath) is more profitable in satisfying even the most anti-social feelings of greed and such than in being a "jerk".
As such, social selection does not favor the violent.
2. Evolution via natural selection doesn't "care". It might be suggested that it "cares" about filling niches in various ecosystems, but it really doesn't. It is a completely oblivious, amoral, "force" that achieves that as an end, but it does not actually "care" about the desires of any particular individual creature, or even group of creatures, and simply "is". A creature may want to be an apex predator, but if "nature" "needs" a detrivore, get ready to chow down on some nice poop.
So while the violent may indeed typically wind up getting ahead in the genetic continuation "game", whether or not they get ahead in the overall social and cultural game is less obvious. There are supposed to be all these people descended from Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun, but when was the last time you heard of the Mongols or Huns dominating the world?

Now you are certainly correct that laws regarding rape, from definition to punishment, have required an absurdly longer time to reach anything considered even vaguely acceptable to modern sensibilities compared to other offenses. They have however reached such a point, even if it is without universal, or even reasonably common, acceptance. That rather suggests humans aren't as utterly hopeless as some ideologies require.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2015, 01:44:17 PM »
You can get better from being raped.
You can't get better from being murdered.

That's true:
You cannot get better from being murdered - once dead you are dead and gone.
You can get better from being raped - you've got years, maybe decades to recover.

However, that tacitly acknowledges that you also might not actually get better from being raped.
You may suffer a stress injury for those years into decades.
It may be so severe that you become deranged and become a violent sexual predator yourself.

So then which is actually worse:
Being murdered for 15 minutes then being physically oblivious for eternity?
Or,
Being raped for 15 minutes then being mentally and physically traumatized for decades, potentially passing the trauma on to others?

Offline bhu

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2015, 03:27:38 PM »
Ignoring the contradictions inherent in the bible require a great deal more.

Just what contradictions are you referring to?
For most, see below.


We'll start with something easy:

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

Quote
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn

So again, what do you see as incompatible?

That is a gross oversimplification and we all know it.  If you're going to debate at least do so honestly.  We'll start easy again:  One of the basic principles of nihilism is that life has no intrinsic meaning or value.  Christianity does the exact opposite, saying that life does have an intrinsic value: your adherence to a specific code of morality prevents infinite punishment for finite actions.


[/quote]

Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2015, 05:15:53 PM »
We'll start with something easy:

. . .

Exodus 33:20 does not contradict Exodus 33:23. Not being able to see the face and live is not the same as being able to see the back and live.

As for the New Testament elements, you need a Christian to reconcile them. Not being a Christian, they are not an issue for me.

Of course those all deal with supernatural issues rather than functional moral issues, and so do not present any problems when discussing the moral questions at hand.

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That is a gross oversimplification and we all know it.  If you're going to debate at least do so honestly.

The description of the Torah by one of the top sages of the Mishnah and the Talmud is a gross oversimplification and not debating honestly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

Though I am not a Christian, will you also dismiss the version in the Gospels:
Luke 10:25-28
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Quote
We'll start easy again:  One of the basic principles of nihilism is that life has no intrinsic meaning or value.  Christianity does the exact opposite, saying that life does have an intrinsic value: your adherence to a specific code of morality prevents infinite punishment for finite actions.

What does nihilism have to do with this?
Wait . . . do you think Nietzsche was a nihilist?
Seriously?
Are you going to suggest he was an anti-Semite next?


So you've confused passages, required agreement regarding supernatural qualities in a debate over moral code elements, not recognized the status of a primary authority (or that it is repeated directly within the relevant text), and either brought in a complete non-sequitur or demonstrated total ignorance of a particular philosophy.
It you are going to debate at least be able to do so competently, especially if you are going to accuse someone of not debating honestly.

Offline Solo

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2015, 05:19:54 PM »
Quote
Assuming of course that passage actually sanctions rape.
What is done with the women and little ones thou takes onto thyself?
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2015, 06:28:44 PM »
What is done with the women and little ones thou takes onto thyself?

That depends.
Generally, slavery for life, which is hardly pleasant but particularly for the times usually much better than death.

For some, adoption into the tribe by marriage, following religious conversion.
Yes, I'm sure this will evoke cries of "rape" again, but once again the text is quite explicit on the requirements for such marriage, and how it interacts with the slave status. For women, the requirements are:
1. Taking into the home;
2. A month of mourning;
3. Shaving the head and allowing the nails to grow for that month to make the woman particularly unattractive;
4. Treating the slave as a member of the household for that month.
Then, if the person intending the marriage changes his mind:
1. The woman must be released,
1a. She may not be sold to someone else,
1b. She may not be kept as an ordinary servant.
And . . . that's it.
If you want to marry a slave then change your mind you must let her go.
Yes, this does come with a note that it is because you have "humiliated" her, which is to say it is assumed you've had sex with her already.
No, that isn't a particularly awesome bit of justice for being raped.
Once again though, in context of the times, it rates rather high.
And it supports the argument that you simply cannot rape your female slaves.

You can find the specifics on that in Deuteronomy 21, right after the part where taking said prisoners was permitted.

Offline bhu

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2015, 02:14:23 AM »
We'll start with something easy:

. . .

Exodus 33:20 does not contradict Exodus 33:23. Not being able to see the face and live is not the same as being able to see the back and live.

As for the New Testament elements, you need a Christian to reconcile them. Not being a Christian, they are not an issue for me.

I can't help but notice you don't mention the others.  :eh  To say in your previous post that you look to the bible for morality, and now say you are not christian means you were either being deliberately misleading, or perhaps you are trolling. 

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Of course those all deal with supernatural issues rather than functional moral issues, and so do not present any problems when discussing the moral questions at hand.
That was one example (remember I said I'd start with something easy).  As for supernatural issues, the entirety of the Bible's code is born from and reflects supernatural issues.  You behave as the invisible sky fairy wants, or you burn. 


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The description of the Torah by one of the top sages of the Mishnah and the Talmud is a gross oversimplification and not debating honestly?
  Yes it is.  The moral principles of the bible are rather specific and varied, and cannot be covered by one sentence no matter how pithy.  ou know this very well, and one presumes you like antagonizing others.  You are beginning to look more like a troll.



Quote
Though I am not a Christian, will you also dismiss the version in the Gospels:

Yes, for again it does not cover everything.  It is a brief comment upon a much longer screed.  May I ask, if you are not Christian why you insist on using their Bible as part of your argument?  Again, to suggest you are not Christian, yet defend it so strongly implies you are either lying or have an emotional investment in said faith (or at least an attachment to it).  Which again implies cognitive dissonance.


Quote
What does nihilism have to do with this?
Wait . . . do you think Nietzsche was a nihilist?
Seriously?
Are you going to suggest he was an anti-Semite next?
  Nietzche was more of a perspectivist who believed religious faith led to nihilism, but his commentary on the morals of the various judeo-christian religions quite often verged on crossing over into moral nihilism (and it's not like perspectivism taken far enough doesn't lead to nihilsm itself).  It's why the christians of the times hated him, and many still do.  They regard him as the father of moral nihilism (regardless of whether or not that is true), which they cannot abide, and hate him equally for finding the flaws in their ideological beliefs.  He regarded the death of God as ultimately good for society.  You cannot hold that worldview and be Christian, as being a Christian one believes all good comes from God.  Even if your just taking the piss to play the part of a troll you cannot sincerely believe in both the Judeo-Christian morality that Nietzche mocked, and simultaneously believe in Nietzche's ideals without cognitive dissonance.

As for anti-semitism, Nietzche was well enough known to be an atheist, and his harsh critique of the Christian religion applied to Judaism as well.  Paradoxically he was also fairly pro-jewish in his writings even if he did not agree with their religious beliefs.  He was also known as a anti-militarist, and would not have supported the Nazis actions during WWII, even though they used some of his worldviews as the backbone of their political ideology.    That anti-semites can twist your words into supporting their cause does not make you an anti-semite.  His breaking ties with friends and family over their anti-semitism is proof enough that he did not hate the jews as a race, whatever he may have thought of their religion.


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So you've confused passages, required agreement regarding supernatural qualities in a debate over moral code elements, not recognized the status of a primary authority (or that it is repeated directly within the relevant text), and either brought in a complete non-sequitur or demonstrated total ignorance of a particular philosophy.
It you are going to debate at least be able to do so competently, especially if you are going to accuse someone of not debating honestly.

It is my assertion that the supernatural is the basis for Christian morality.  If you separate one from the other, what then is the basis for that morality if you face no punishment in the afterlife? 

I am debating in my own way, which granted is a very odd roundabout way, but it is to see whether or not you truly believe what you say, or are taking an indefensible position in order to elicit emotional comment.  In short, some part of me is fairly sure you're just bullshitting to see how many people you can piss off.  When I have decided to my satisfaction that you are not I will perhaps enter debate in a more traditional manner.  Much of your posting has been phrased in a manner designed to deflect from what your supposed position is because you guess that people will make assumptions.  That, or you're a bald faced liar who changes positions depending on the argument used by your opponent.  Additionally, you are occasionally quite condescending , which is common of trolls who simply wish to provoke people into becoming emotional.   

If you're debating something you genuinely believe in it should shine through eventually.  Be more forthright without prevarication and I shall take you seriously.   :hug

Offline Solo

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2015, 02:08:14 PM »
Quote
And it supports the argument that you simply cannot rape your female slaves.
Yeah, those are some really harsh condemnations.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 02:10:32 PM by Solo »
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Offline Samwise

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2015, 02:44:02 PM »
I can't help but notice you don't mention the others.  :eh  To say in your previous post that you look to the bible for morality, and now say you are not christian means you were either being deliberately misleading, or perhaps you are trolling.

I said I wasn't a Christian before. Perhaps you should have noted it then. Further, just because someone looks to the Bible for morality does not require them to be a Christian. Perhaps you should take note of that as well.

As for mentioning the others, I did.
You presented quotes in two groups.
Of those groups, the ones from the Tanakh are in accord except for the one I specifically addressed, which is directly paired to another, for which your claim that they contradict is in error.
The other group is from the New Testament, which I noted I am not the best person to try and explain.

So either you are deliberately misleading on my response or just trolling.

Quote
That was one example (remember I said I'd start with something easy).  As for supernatural issues, the entirety of the Bible's code is born from and reflects supernatural issues.  You behave as the invisible sky fairy wants, or you burn.

And it was a poor example, as it has nothing to do with morality, and so was quite easy to refute.
As for the Bible code being dependent on the supernatural aspects, you are simply wrong, as I demonstrated.
As for your bigoted Atheism, that seems to suggest that you are in fact trolling.


Quote
Yes it is.  The moral principles of the bible are rather specific and varied, and cannot be covered by one sentence no matter how pithy.  ou know this very well, and one presumes you like antagonizing others.  You are beginning to look more like a troll.

So your religious bigotry is fine but my faith is antagonistic because of your ignorance of it?
Uh huh.

Quote
Yes, for again it does not cover everything.  It is a brief comment upon a much longer screed.

Once again, yes it does.

And let me be clear:
I am not responsible for your ignorance.
Your lack of understanding of the Bible, caused by whatever, is your lack of understanding, not mine. I cannot, and will not, be held guilty of something simply because you are completely unaware of simple principles.

Quote
May I ask, if you are not Christian why you insist on using their Bible as part of your argument?  Again, to suggest you are not Christian, yet defend it so strongly implies you are either lying or have an emotional investment in said faith (or at least an attachment to it).  Which again implies cognitive dissonance.

Seriously?
Really, seriously?
Okay, first, there are these people called "Jews". They believe in that part of the Bible referred to as the "Old Testament", but which they call the Tanakh. You may have seen me use that term. The "T" in Tanakh stands for "Torah", which is the first 5 books of the Tanakh, which is divided into several parts for reasons relevant to Jews.
Then there are the whole variety of other groups that refer to the Bible in one form of other, from Samaritans to Baha'i to Noahides. For all of them the Bible is a relevant set of scriptures, yet none of them are Christians.
Once again you are hurling imprecations because you are ignorant of some very essential, and rather simple, facts. You really might want to address your egregious lack of knowledge before continuing.

Quote
Nietzche was more of a perspectivist who believed religious faith led to nihilism, but his commentary on the morals of the various judeo-christian religions quite often verged on crossing over into moral nihilism (and it's not like perspectivism taken far enough doesn't lead to nihilsm itself).  It's why the christians of the times hated him, and many still do.  They regard him as the father of moral nihilism (regardless of whether or not that is true), which they cannot abide, and hate him equally for finding the flaws in their ideological beliefs.  He regarded the death of God as ultimately good for society.  You cannot hold that worldview and be Christian, as being a Christian one believes all good comes from God.  Even if your just taking the piss to play the part of a troll you cannot sincerely believe in both the Judeo-Christian morality that Nietzche mocked, and simultaneously believe in Nietzche's ideals without cognitive dissonance.

That is completely and utterly wrong.
Nietzsche despised nihilism. He was writing primarily to counter nihilism, attempting to present an alternative to them.
Nietzsche was quite dismissive of Christianity. He did not feel it led in and of itself to nihilism, though he did feel that organized Christianity had led to the corruption of values that permitted nihilism to arise and thrive.
He did not view the death of divinity as a good thing in and of itself. Indeed he described it as a horrible thing, condemning the people who had perpetrated the murder. He did regard it as useful in clearing away the decadence of Christianity, but he absolutely despised the death of real morality that it engendered.
Nietzsche himself spoke highly of Jesus, and Paul for that matter, who I have little use for. As such, accepting Judeo-Christian morality while rejecting Christianity is far from incompatible with Nietzsche. The real problem though is that you have leaped to a conclusion assuming that my statement that I looked to Smith, Nietzsche and the Bible for morality means that I embrace and endorse every single thing stated in all of them. That is a false assumption on your part, though you clearly see it as an excuse to troll.

Quote
As for anti-semitism, . . .

I'm actually shocked that you are aware of that.

Quote
It is my assertion that the supernatural is the basis for Christian morality.  If you separate one from the other, what then is the basis for that morality if you face no punishment in the afterlife?

If you read Nietzsche, you can find the answer with some effort.
If you read Smith, the answer is blatantly clear.
Of course if you read the Bible very carefully you can also discover the answer within it as well, but you have to slog through digressions, much as with Nietzsche, so it can be difficult.
You might also want to learn that Judaism is not predicated on the same kind of punishment scheme as Christianity, so your obsessive focus on Christianity in trying to challenge me is a complete waste, as I do not believe it and will not be bound to defend it.

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I am debating in my own way, which granted is a very odd roundabout way, but it is to see whether or not you truly believe what you say, or are taking an indefensible position in order to elicit emotional comment. In short, some part of me is fairly sure you're just bullshitting to see how many people you can piss off.

So then you are trolling.
While getting pissy and accusing me of trolling.
Uh huh.

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When I have decided to my satisfaction that you are not I will perhaps enter debate in a more traditional manner.

Hoping of course that by then I consider you worthy of engaging in such a manner.
Hint: You are making an exceptionally good case that you aren't.

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Much of your posting has been phrased in a manner designed to deflect from what your supposed position is because you guess that people will make assumptions.


No, most of my posting has been phrased in a manner to cover as many generalities as possible as opposed to inflicting a one million word dissertation on my path to and comprehension of morality.
Or just, you know, shouting "RTFM!" and not actually answering anything.

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That, or you're a bald faced liar who changes positions depending on the argument used by your opponent.  Additionally, you are occasionally quite condescending , which is common of trolls who simply wish to provoke people into becoming emotional.

Says the admitted troll.

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If you're debating something you genuinely believe in it should shine through eventually.  Be more forthright without prevarication and I shall take you seriously.   :hug

I've been quite forthright.
If you mean, "provide a specific answer" then do provide a specific question.
"What do you believe?" is not specific.
"What do you believe about [very precise issue]?" is specific.
For example:

"Do you believe the Creator has a physical form that may be perceived?"
No, I do not.
However I believe the Creator may produce various manifestations that are similar enough to physical forms to be considered such for most general purposes and discussions.
"How do you reconcile conflicting statements regarding that within the Bible?"
I don't.
I didn't write it, so I don't worry about reconciling them. I might suggest it is because of human flaws in the writing, but that is just a best guess based on human nature.
More importantly, I don't consider them relevant. Loving the Creator for the infinite gifts given to me, particularly the infinite love, and loving my neighbor because it produces the greatest quality of life possible are relevant, so I focus on them and leave questions about physical forms to the ivory tower theologians. Certainly I will learn the answer after I die, and that is sufficient for me.

Of course it requires a degree of intellectual integrity and actual competent knowledge to be able to phrase questions like that rather than play the preening troll.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2015, 05:47:20 PM »
Minor tangent though related ...

I caught former senator John Danforth on an interview.
(the Repub that spearheaded the Clarence Thomas court nomination)
As a priest he is familiar with what the Pope said to ~Veep Paul Ryan.
In this interview Danforth claimed Ryan is no real Libertarian
and rather was politically saying he was one of them, without
being one in actuallity.  If Ryan publicly  kept declaring his
Libertarian-ness the Pope may have gone out on a limb, and
refused him Communion.  He + They've done similars on Abortion.


so game on ...
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Political THEORY thread (spinoff from Politics thread)
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2015, 08:57:13 PM »
It is certainly possible to appreciate the ethos and mythos in religious literature without taking it literally.  And considering the bible is a hodgepodge collection of poems, letters, oral myth, parable, and history that was written and assembled over a span of 2000 years, you shouldn't expect it to be consistent. It's mythology. Its function is not to be a consistent philosophical argument; it's to convey wisdom and ethics through the ages before there was education and widespread literacy.  Or law, for that matter.  It's meant to be broken down into memorable chunks and summed up in pithy "moral of the story" statements so as to reach the most number of people. Like memes.
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