Author Topic: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving  (Read 56619 times)

Offline Rekmond

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2017, 12:50:33 PM »
Sans equipment, These (two, three?) should be done for now. Hardly optimized but eh...

Anyways

PC  Muh'Ty and Ka'lam
Major Fey Blooded White Dragonspawn Dvati
LA 1 - Crusader 4 - Paragon 3 / Barbarian 8

Cohort Saxifrage
Petal
LA 1 - Bard 5 / Warlock 6

thoughts? opinions? ......complaints?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 01:09:06 PM by Rekmond »
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2017, 03:33:50 PM »
Could you clarify this? My current also has a similar horde of followers (and more), so I would like to know how many followers is too many, so I can guide my choices.
That's what I thought, but once I saw the possibility, I kinda had to check. I'll limit the followerness-ness of my feat picks then.

Since alignment ain't in the game, would an item in MIC that's limited to Turn undead (Not Rebuke Undead) still have that limit, and would it be homebrew to have the same item in reverse? (Ephod of Authority, Part of Vestments of Divinity (Set for 'fighting evil creatures'), MIC 215, +1 Turn Undead).

First, an item limited to turn undead is still thusly limited.

Second, could I see a breakdown of those rosters, by leadership score? It might not be as bad as it looks from first blush. And those cohorts aren't all "yours," right? They are, more specifically, the cohort of your cohort, and their cohort, and their cohort's cohort? Ugh. Semantic saturation.

It's more like you're the General, your cohorts are Colonels, theirs are Majors, and theirs are Captains. Is that right? Or have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?

About companion spirits and practiced cohort... no. The companion spirit is shared between specific members of a group, but it is not a teamwork benefit. Sort of like how Fell Conspiracy isn't a teamwork benefit. They all affect groups, but don't (directly) interact.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 04:59:52 PM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2017, 09:42:30 PM »
could I see a breakdown of those rosters, by leadership score?
You could, but it might take me some time to run up the numbers. Until now, the build was entirely in my head, with all the things I was thinking of putting in it (pending DM's discretion, of course.) Now that I actually start working through the implications, it is a bit overwhelming
Quote
It might not be as bad as it looks from first blush.
ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Quote
have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?
Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat + Mentor + Leadership.

PC: level 9, one person. Has Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Cohorts: Level 8, five persons (one is a pseudodragon). Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Cohorts: level 7, twenty persons. Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Sub-Cohorts: level 6, eighty persons. Have Leadership, Undead Leadership, Mentor, Great Diplomat.
Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 5, 320 persons. Have Leadership, Mentor.
Sub-Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 4. 640 persons. No cohorts or followers.

That's cohorts. Their followers will take a bit of processing time to calculate, as there are 426 follower-bearing persons.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #143 on: March 17, 2017, 02:14:38 AM »
Hmm I'd already edited the doc.

Feats were Iron Will at 1st, Great Diplomat (Flaw), Mounted Combat (Flaw), Ride-by Attack (From Moderate Taint), Spirited Charge (3rd), Leadership (6th), Undead Leadership (From Severe Taint), Extra Cohort (PsyRef'd from Mounted combat), Improved Cohort (Psyref'd from Ride-by attack, after getting Riding boots), and Might Makes Right (9th).

Got the crafting cohort to craft a Lyre of Building, which once per week can do the work of 100 human laborers doing 3 days work in 30 mins, requiring only a DC 18 Perform check (+10 bonus, it's a MW lyre, taking 10=22), check every hour. Being undead, and not needing sleep, the PC can fairly quickly and cheaply build a stronghold. Several in fact.

Leadership for determining Followers, counting items (Just a Helm of Charisma & Wisdom +4 (26->32), and a belt of Str +4 (18->22), got to 38 (Level 9, + 11 Cha, + 6 Str (MMR), +2 Great Diplomat, +2 for Undead, +1 for Extra Followers, +1 for Improved Cohort (Leader Feats give +1), +1 for Power, +1 for fairnessness, +2 for renown (the -2 for a steed is only for cohorts, and thats... unimportant), +2 for that stronghold = 38 for two doubled pools of followers.

2 Lvl 8 Cohorts had same build, so no MMR (-6), None of the boosting gear (But having the feat replacing gear, so they're still Spirited Chargers) (-2), and 1 level lower (Lshp 28), 7th Cohort -2 (no Cha bump and lower Level) 26. Those were the direct Cohorts. For 2 pools of doubled followers each.

2 Lv 8s had 2 7ths and a 6th set of cohorts, one of whom is the Crafting Co-Cohort which has no staff (the taint feats are for Legendary Artisan (XP), and Craft Wand).

5 Lvl 7s (PC's + Cohorts) Were also the same build, w/ 26 Lshp, and each having 2 6ths Cohort and a 5th cohort.

11 6th CoCohorts w/Leadership @25 Lshp, had a 5th CoCoCohort each, and a 4th CoCoCohort each, each with the same build in earlier stages (so no followers or cohorts yet).



All the Leadership scores were pretty high, and each was x4 followers:
9th (PC)8th8th7th7th7th7th7th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6th6thTotal
Lshp37282826262626262525252525252525252525
1st296088088064064064064064052052052052052052052052052052052013640
2nd2968888646464646452525252525252525252521364
3rd148444432323232322828282828282828282828704
4th76242416161616161616161616161616161616380
5th4012128888888888888888192
6th20888888888888888888164
7th1244444444444444444484
8th8------------------------------------8
9th4------------------------------------4

PC Had 3564 followers of her own, and a chain of 57 Cohorts 3 direct, the rest via Cohort Chains, and the PC's army had 16540 Followers: 16088 mooks (warlocks) and 452 5th+ Paladins of Laughter ready to dive-bomb with lances for 10-14h/day, 12 of which could keep their mount for up to 24-26h (via call mount).

« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:06:56 AM by Chemus »
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Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #144 on: March 17, 2017, 02:28:52 AM »
have you somehow found a way to give a single PC 12 different cohorts?
Five. Dragon Cohort + Undead Leadership + Great Diplomat + Mentor + Leadership.

Sub-Sub-Sub-Cohorts: Level 5, 320 persons. Have Leadership, Mentor.
Regarding Great Diplomat: Oh MY. I hadn't seen that in the update (But it is in the update!)

...5th level Characters can't get Leadership usually; how are you making that work?

Edited the roster requested, as per the update info that Malephaxerazz had pointed out. The build was the same, but the results... amplified. Thanks Maleph!

Considering those numbers, I'd probably have make each secondary (the one from Undead Leadership) cohort a Crafting Cohort, just to get anything done! That'd cut out 2680 Followers (2600 mooks, and 80 Chargers), but add 14 crafting Cohorts, levels 4-7th.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:34:07 AM by Chemus »
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Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2017, 04:50:29 AM »
ha, ha Hahahahaha HAHAHAHAa ahaHAHAHAHAHAHAA
Welp.

I am strangely okay with ~60 cohorts, and maybe even upwards of 75, but 1067 cohorts is around a thousand too many. I mean, I appreciate your passion for the system, but there's just a limit to the number of military-capable people/corpses in a nation.

Objectively, though, wow. That's just insane. Congratulations on what you did there. :clap


@Chemus, x4 followers? Are you using Extra Followers and Warlord to multiply 200% by 2? If so, please remember that in this system, two doublings equals a tripling.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 04:57:39 AM by Drammor »
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2017, 05:01:07 AM »
I'm using Extra followers w/Leadership and Undead Leadership. They have independent follower pools, but they interact directly with the leadership score and Extra followers by that score.

Hadn't we gone over this and Improved Cohort? EF affects both, but IC only affects Leadership (as that's how each is written). I'm really happy that Great Diplomat got that bump though... :)

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Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2017, 05:07:26 AM »
Ah good. I thought that you had meant x4 followers per pool. Carry on then. :blush
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Garryl

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2017, 11:36:55 AM »
@Chemus, x4 followers? Are you using Extra Followers and Warlord to multiply 200% by 2? If so, please remember that in this system, two doublings equals a tripling.

D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.

Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2017, 11:39:36 AM »
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 11:44:50 AM by ketaro »

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2017, 11:51:58 AM »
...5th level Characters can't get Leadership usually; how are you making that work?
Despot paladin variant, from Dragon 312. Has Leadership as a class feature at level 5.
Also: Improved Cohort indeed affects only the Leadership cohort, which is why I take Close Cohort instead.

I am strangely okay with ~60 cohorts, and maybe even upwards of 75, but 1067 cohorts is around a thousand too many. I mean, I appreciate your passion for the system, but there's just a limit to the number of military-capable people/corpses in a nation.
That's fair. I did not realise how many it was until I sat down to do the math. D&D 3.5 is the sort of game which has enough different ways to do the same thing that if any character specialized completely, that person warps the universe around their specialty.
I'll cut down the cohort count to 75. Technically, 1067 is "upwards of" 75, but that's obviously not what you meant  :tongue
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 11:54:31 AM by Maelphaxerazz »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2017, 01:32:49 PM »
Objectively, though, wow. That's just insane. Congratulations on what you did there.
It's what I was trying to do that one day in chat. Using a 6th level Follower as an artillery commander, a 5th level cohort bard to inspire the crew, their leadership pools to secure the wealth to buy several siege engines, and still have enough lower level followers to act as a defensive meat grinder.

Btw, speaking of things I've said in chat, that infinite loop I spoke of works like this. Court of Thieves (CS, 6,000gp) doubles your Charisma Modifier for Cohort/Followers if the minion has a level of Bard or Rogue. So say you have a nearly modest 18 base, +2 via +0 template, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 age, +4 enhancement and that yields a +20 bonus to your Leadership Score. Everyone has a "special power" since Bards are awesome and call them all fair for another +2 and then another +6 for the level bonus and congratulations a 6th level Follower can have a 7th level Follower. The bonus from the Court of Thieve only exists so long as it's a secret. But as is, this one tiny branch contains 256 people and only one guy knows about it or 0.3% of the population. Used four times, only 0.09% of the population knows about it, the knowledge of it literally becomes more exclusive the more times it's used. Now just use some levels to pick up some more Charisma and you can secure 9th level Followers. Obviously it's possible simply using enough Charisma, but the Magical Location just makes it easier. Also he banned infinite loops so this is just an fyi.

Offline Chemus

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2017, 02:48:24 PM »
Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.
The followers can't take Leadership, per Drammor's ruling.

PC, Equipped, Here: Slûnwe the Lovely
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 02:55:56 PM by Chemus »
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Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2017, 04:07:27 PM »
D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.

Uuuugh. This is like... the 6th time I've had to recalculate followers for these villains. Thanks though, that's good information.

Gosh, I have only a humble horde of just under 500. But I suppose it'd show that there aren't many orcs following undead gods :p

Unless anybody recommends putting more Leadership's into my 6 lvl 6th & 7th followers :v
Hmm.... Heh, that'd be funny. Nongestalt followers with gestalt cohorts.

Your restraint is greatly appreciated.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2017, 04:57:53 PM »
D&D's additive multiplication only applies for abstract quantities, like damage. Real-world units, like distance, multiply multiplicatively, like in reality.

Uuuugh. This is like... the 6th time I've had to recalculate followers for these villains. Thanks though, that's good information.
Which, of course, means that I also have to recalculate my follower count, because I have the horde and Extra Followers. This may become a bloodbath of Mongol proportions :cool

Offline Rekmond

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2017, 05:00:12 PM »
And I'm over here with less than 50 mooks at present wondering if I need to up the ante.
I want to be born. To live. That is all I want. -Aura

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2017, 05:36:07 PM »
  • Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
May I take Racial Heritage feat?

EDIT: also, I want to modify my homebrew. Chameleon basically needs to be human (or changeling, or doppelganger), so the "dragon" theme of my not-orc-warlord prestige class isn't fitting very well. So, I'd like to rename it to Human Warlord, changing the prerequisites appropriately. It will look less silly when the leader of the army is not a four-foot-tall lizard. 
:thought
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 05:55:42 PM by Maelphaxerazz »

Offline ketaro

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2017, 05:54:44 PM »
Good. I actually didn't want to do more work  :lmao

Offline Drammor

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #158 on: March 17, 2017, 06:57:27 PM »
  • Sources Allowed: ... some Pathfinder (ask).
May I take Racial Heritage feat?

EDIT: also, I want to modify my homebrew. Chameleon basically needs to be human (or changeling, or doppelganger), so the "dragon" theme of my not-orc-warlord prestige class isn't fitting very well. So, I'd like to rename it to Human Warlord, changing the prerequisites appropriately. It will look less silly when the leader of the army is not a four-foot-tall lizard. 
:thought

Sure thing. :thumbsup
[20:32] <DonQuixote> A POX UPON YOU ALL!
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, J, FOR STEALING THE PURITY OF NORNS.
[20:32] <DonQuixote> YOU, DRAMMOR, FOR ENSNARING ME IN THIS FIENDISH PRISON.

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: [Interest Check] 3.5. Warfare, leadership and world-saving
« Reply #159 on: March 18, 2017, 03:49:30 PM »
I've had a change of heart, and am dropping my Homebrew Warlord prestige class from the build. For one thing, it really is just "More followers: the prestige class", which is fun to calculate but in actual gameplay will just mean the antagonists will have more followers to match. The DM isn't going to zerg rush us to death (because then the game would just be over), so simply increasing the population of my army is a meaningless exercise.

The other reason is that I'm realising that I'm making my army more complicated than I will really have the time to manage. I still have papers to write, after all.