Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!

[Anomander]

The recovery method is just too cheap, since its cost is zero as your main school already makes you want to re-enter stances all the time. There's not even a randomness factor like the crusader or eternal royal.
Looked at it again and, yeah. Two upon entering a stance is too much. Its getting hard to find new and unique means to recover maneuvers considering everything is getting taken.
Nothing would normally beat the Eternal Royal in recovery, since it doesn't even require actions. 1 maneuver recovered for a swift action when you change/enter a stance might be better. I wouldn't mind having it be done by some other mean. Will try to find new ones that aren't too similar to whats already out.

Trance is already a very powerful mechanic even when limited to the school's maneuvers and at a lot of points it was stretching what I consider admissible. Yet the base class itself now goes and gives you even more bonus for spamming trance effects and that's where I draw the line. Base classes shouldn't even be directly benefiting schools mechanics unless it's something completely specialized like the Frostwind Virago or Nuclear Dragon.
Weird. The goal was actually to make something specialized. I'm surprised I didn't make it clear enough.

A One-Track Paradise completely nullifies one of the very few limitations of the school just like that?
Limitation of the school? When you roll a Listen check to determine damage or to replace a stat or somesuch, being deaf/in silence doesn't affect the roll. You are not using the roll as a skill check to hear as per the skill description, you are just replacing the check/stat with its die and modifier.

Cheap turn undeads for swift actions(which were even keyed to your main stat)? No. Just no. In particular when it's even more abuseable when you want to enter stances all the time.
Stole it from the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Cool ability for a setting-specific deity prc. Turn undead being keyed to the main stat can be altered. I felt the original turn undead should have been itself.

You shouldn't make class abilities based on a discipline that wasn't yet designed.

However before you start thinking of a Forbidden school for this let me at least take a look at the class.

We have entered a paradox.
The ability can easily be altered to something else. I'm not worried about it. It didn't even come up until the end of the class-building process when I found out about Tenchi.
That or just remove access to Dream Battle and have it initiate Dream Battle maneuvers when trancing instead of Heavenly Bhavagra's. That way I can just later make Heavenly Bhavagra as a forbidden school to Dream Battle or Desire Drive.

Ok, just how many auras are you suposed to have on top of 6+int skill points, all good saves, and a school that's overflowing with group buffs already? There's whole classes out there just based on auras, and this one grants multiples of them on top of an already pretty powerful main chassis.
Two (when in trance mode).
I'll reduce the all good saves. Was too much on a zen martial-Monk trip then. 6+int skill points seemed right but can be reduced to 4.
Thinking about it, I think I'll remove all the additional stance gains after the first one, seeing how Desire Drive only offers one stance for each maneuver branch, and give the option to get a new stance instead of a minor aura whenever one is acquired.

I'll rewrite Hold Harmony Sacred as it doesn't work as intended as is. Will make it clearer.
Wuji's mechanism feels a bit clunky to me as well. It grants double aura instead of the usual double stance, but not as fluently as I want it to be.

[oslecamo]

The recovery method is just too cheap, since its cost is zero as your main school already makes you want to re-enter stances all the time. There's not even a randomness factor like the crusader or eternal royal.
Looked at it again and, yeah. Two upon entering a stance is too much. Its getting hard to find new and unique means to recover maneuvers considering everything is getting taken.
Nothing would normally beat the Eternal Royal in recovery, since it doesn't even require actions. 1 maneuver recovered for a swift action when you change/enter a stance might be better. I wouldn't mind having it be done by some other mean. Will try to find new ones that aren't too similar to whats already out.

0-The crusader, one of the base Tob classes, already refreshes maneuvers with no action required, balanced by the fact there's a random element involved. Just like with the eternal royal, you can't be sure you're geting back the maneuver you want when you want it.
1-The scholar already has swift to recover one maneuver, but the scholar doesn't get to enter a new stance with the same precious swift action.
2-I agree that there's just so many actions out there, and that's why I sugest simply giving the hermit some average spammable attack that refreshes maneuvers.

Trance is already a very powerful mechanic even when limited to the school's maneuvers and at a lot of points it was stretching what I consider admissible. Yet the base class itself now goes and gives you even more bonus for spamming trance effects and that's where I draw the line. Base classes shouldn't even be directly benefiting schools mechanics unless it's something completely specialized like the Frostwind Virago or Nuclear Dragon.
Weird. The goal was actually to make something specialized. I'm surprised I didn't make it clear enough.

Then you should start by making the class have a single school and race.

A One-Track Paradise completely nullifies one of the very few limitations of the school just like that?
Limitation of the school? When you roll a Listen check to determine damage or to replace a stat or somesuch, being deaf/in silence doesn't affect the roll. You are not using the roll as a skill check to hear as per the skill description, you are just replacing the check/stat with its die and modifier.

Deafened

A deafened character cannot hear. She takes a -4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

All listen checks, point. When reviewing the school, I was taking that in account.

Cheap turn undeads for swift actions(which were even keyed to your main stat)? No. Just no. In particular when it's even more abuseable when you want to enter stances all the time.
Stole it from the Ruby Knight Vindicator. Cool ability for a setting-specific deity prc. Turn undead being keyed to the main stat can be altered. I felt the original turn undead should have been itself.

A RKV has to delay maneuver progression, be a cleric of a god restricted to an average deity domain-wise (and also delay spellcasting), and even then it's only getting it at 12th, on a level that doesn't progress his maneuvers at all. And even then it's considered one of the most OP gish prcs out there on basically that alone.

You shouldn't make class abilities based on a discipline that wasn't yet designed.

However before you start thinking of a Forbidden school for this let me at least take a look at the class.

We have entered a paradox.
The ability can easily be altered to something else. I'm not worried about it. It didn't even come up until the end of the class-building process when I found out about Tenchi.
That or just remove access to Dream Battle and have it initiate Dream Battle maneuvers when trancing instead of Heavenly Bhavagra's. That way I can just later make Heavenly Bhavagra as a forbidden school to Dream Battle or Desire Drive.

Again, it's not really specialized if you're pulling stuff from other schools.

Ok, just how many auras are you suposed to have on top of 6+int skill points, all good saves, and a school that's overflowing with group buffs already? There's whole classes out there just based on auras, and this one grants multiples of them on top of an already pretty powerful main chassis.
Two (when in trance mode).

I was using "aura" as a generic term there. You're also geting the extra trance area effect on top on top of whatever the trance was actually doing for four total.

[Anomander]

The crusader isn't like the eternal royal. It has but a handful of readied maneuvers and they do not choose which one they have access to.
Unlike the ER, they can hardly use the same maneuver on two successive rounds because they have to wait 3 rounds to recover them each time, and pray they get those they need.
ER gets good odds of automatic recovery every round, and always get their hands on what they want.

The scholar may not get more use out of his swift action, but had the immense advantage of having the option to spend bigger actions for more recoveries. Two recovered maneuvers for a move action whenever you only really need to spend a 5ft step, a swift for a boost and a standard for a strike? Sounds like a much better recovery method than the Hermit's to me.
The Hermit has to enter/change his stance in the process, which isn't always such a good idea. Returning to the stance you left after trancing takes 1d4 rounds without the feat. Even if the feat makes recovering maneuvers easier action-wise, it still takes a feat. Pricey.

I might go for something like an attack spam, even though its kinda meh. Maybe something else than an attack. I'll think about it.

Then you should start by making the class have a single school and race.
Unlike the others, it doesn't have a second school of your choice. You can't just pick your favorite combo. Dream Battle becomes adapted to function like Desire Drive, so it becomes an extension of it in a sense, and the school being available perhaps only as the 11th level class feature. It isn't necessary but it seems thematically appropriate.
It is sort of technically a template-class already. Hermits are kind of a touhou race, and the class eventually also turns you into a Shikaisen, Xian or Celestial.

Deafened
This is kinda funny, since you cannot 'fail' a damage roll. It isn't an opposed check or even a check to determine whether you succeed to accomplish a task.
When you roll a Listen check to determine damage, you roll, say, 16. You fail the roll, okay. Still deal 16 damage. Failing the roll doesn't mean you automatically roll zero. Just means you fail the check.
If you roll Listen instead of an attack roll or a save, then yes, it can automatically fail. If the disciplines are meant to have the skill checks work like that, it leads to weird results, like Crystallized Silver users dealing less damage because they are smaller than their targets.
And even if the discipline had that special disadvantage exclusive to it alone, I'd say that 5 levels in a specific class is quite a significant enough investment to alleviate it. This isn't a 1-2 level dip. If 5 levels in Hermit is what it takes to be able to use Desire Drive maneuvers without such a crippling weakness, I'd say that ability is necessary by then.
Else, it can all just be rewritten as making 1d20 rolls using your Listen skill modifier to avoid confusion.

A RKV has to delay maneuver progression, be a cleric of a god restricted to an average deity domain-wise (and also delay spellcasting), and even then it's only getting it at 12th, on a level that doesn't progress his maneuvers at all. And even then it's considered one of the most OP gish prcs out there on basically that alone.
RKV is also pretty good for other reasons but I'll agree it is its main highlight. I'll raise its acquisition to a higher level. 'Probly 19 unless I shift other stuff around.

You're also geting the extra trance area effect on top on top of whatever the trance was actually doing for four total.
Trance Aura is pretty much the Major Aura, but instead of having it take effect at all times I had it take effect only when in Trance mode. If you see that as benefiting the mechanics instead of a restriction, then I can just have it apply when you aren't in trance mode to have it not benefit the mechanics.
That or change it for the recovery ability device and its improvements, or something.

[oslecamo]

The crusader isn't like the eternal royal. It has but a handful of readied maneuvers and they do not choose which one they have access to.
Unlike the ER, they can hardly use the same maneuver on two successive rounds because they have to wait 3 rounds to recover them each time, and pray they get those they need.
ER gets good odds of automatic recovery every round, and always get their hands on what they want.

"Good" odds. Not perfect odds. We both know that "good" odds such as 2/3 still fail 1/3 of the time. The crusader is geting fresh maneuvers one way or the other 100% of the time, and what crusader doesn't take extra readied maneuver anyway?

Then you should start by making the class have a single school and race.
Unlike the others, it doesn't have a second school of your choice. You can't just pick your favorite combo. Dream Battle becomes adapted to function like Desire Drive, so it becomes an extension of it in a sense, and the school being available perhaps only as the 11th level class feature. It isn't necessary but it seems thematically appropriate.

If it isn't necessary then just remove it. Plenty of homebrew schools out there allow you to simply swap one of your class schools for another.

It is sort of technically a template-class already. Hermits are kind of a touhou race, and the class eventually also turns you into a Shikaisen, Xian or Celestial.

Irrelevant. The hermit is still geting a base race and can multiclass a lot more freely with other stuff.

Deafened
This is kinda funny, since you cannot 'fail' a damage roll. It isn't an opposed check or even a check to determine whether you succeed to accomplish a task.
When you roll a Listen check to determine damage, you roll, say, 16. You fail the roll, okay. Still deal 16 damage. Failing the roll doesn't mean you automatically roll zero. Just means you fail the check.
If you roll Listen instead of an attack roll or a save, then yes, it can automatically fail. If the disciplines are meant to have the skill checks work like that, it leads to weird results, like Crystallized Silver users dealing less damage because they are smaller than their targets.

Bigger enemies taking less damage from cold than smaller enemies? Yep, totally doesn't make sense. Please don't mind the fact that insects and other small animals struggle to live in cold places for the simple fact that indeed having little mass makes you much more vulnerable to freezing to death.

And even if the discipline had that special disadvantage exclusive to it alone, I'd say that 5 levels in a specific class is quite a significant enough investment to alleviate it. This isn't a 1-2 level dip. If 5 levels in Hermit is what it takes to be able to use Desire Drive maneuvers without such a crippling weakness, I'd say that ability is necessary by then.
Else, it can all just be rewritten as making 1d20 rolls using your Listen skill modifier to avoid confusion.

Absolute immunities are still bad. How about simply a save against deafness, plus still geting a save against auto-deafness?

A RKV has to delay maneuver progression, be a cleric of a god restricted to an average deity domain-wise (and also delay spellcasting), and even then it's only getting it at 12th, on a level that doesn't progress his maneuvers at all. And even then it's considered one of the most OP gish prcs out there on basically that alone.
RKV is also pretty good for other reasons but I'll agree it is its main highlight. I'll raise its acquisition to a higher level. 'Probly 19 unless I shift other stuff around.

Good plan.

You're also geting the extra trance area effect on top on top of whatever the trance was actually doing for four total.
Trance Aura is pretty much the Major Aura, but instead of having it take effect at all times I had it take effect only when in Trance mode. If you see that as benefiting the mechanics instead of a restriction, then I can just have it apply when you aren't in trance mode to have it not benefit the mechanics.
That or change it for the recovery ability device and its improvements, or something.

I'll rather have the auras spread around more even than SUPER NOVA mode.

[Anomander]

"Good" odds. Not perfect odds. We both know that "good" odds such as 2/3 still fail 1/3 of the time. The crusader is geting fresh maneuvers one way or the other 100% of the time, and what crusader doesn't take extra readied maneuver anyway?
Doesn't diminish the entirety of the point I made. The fresh maneuvers aren't chosen, aren't as numerous even with the costly investment of a feat, and aren't easy to use two rounds in succession. The odds don't have to be perfect to be much better than this.

If it isn't necessary then just remove it. Plenty of homebrew schools out there allow you to simply swap one of your class schools for another.
A note that specifically states they cannot be swapped can be done. The other tobhou base classes also got a second school that isn't necessary. They still have it.

Irrelevant. The hermit is still geting a base race and can multiclass a lot more freely with other stuff.
Aye, that's why it is a base class and not a race class. Not much an issue considering the more I change it the less it directly benefits the mechanism of the school. If barely by the end of it. I'd have to make this much more powerful to be on par with the other race classes o_O

Bigger enemies taking less damage from cold than smaller enemies? Yep, totally doesn't make sense. Please don't mind the fact that insects and other small animals struggle to live in cold places for the simple fact that indeed having little mass makes you much more vulnerable to freezing to death.
That wouldn't be odd if the size wasn't dependent on the user's size. You want to implement that mechanism to Crystallized Silver? Being Large+ will make nasty adepts.

Absolute immunities are still bad. How about simply a save against deafness, plus still geting a save against auto-deafness?
I could just have it give a simple immunity to Deafness and get a penalty to Listen checks to hear when affected by conditions that makes it hard/impossible to hear. Like -10.
Immunity piercing effects usually give a +5 bonus to the save anyway and/or have a 'get a save against auto-infliction' clause already built-in.
I really should put a clause that states you can make Listen checks for the purpose of executing the martial maneuvers despite your ability to hear, to avoid having a condition that doesn't affect the use of martial abilities do just that.

I'll rather have the auras spread around more even than SUPER NOVA mode.
I'm understanding that statement in many ways. I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting. Could you give me an example?

[Raineh Daze]

Ah, objection on the thematic front, as regards Tenshi: only the Sword of Hisou stuff could be considered relevant to Celestials, since the keystones and earthquake stuff are a result of her family's previous abilities. There really doesn't seem enough the sword alone, even paired with Celestials being physically perfect and ludicrously durable, can do to make any sort of school. @_@

[oslecamo]

"Good" odds. Not perfect odds. We both know that "good" odds such as 2/3 still fail 1/3 of the time. The crusader is geting fresh maneuvers one way or the other 100% of the time, and what crusader doesn't take extra readied maneuver anyway?
Doesn't diminish the entirety of the point I made. The fresh maneuvers aren't chosen, aren't as numerous even with the costly investment of a feat, and aren't easy to use two rounds in succession. The odds don't have to be perfect to be much better than this.

That's debatable. At the end of the day geting some fresh maneuvers is still better than ending up with no maneuvers at all.

If it isn't necessary then just remove it. Plenty of homebrew schools out there allow you to simply swap one of your class schools for another.
A note that specifically states they cannot be swapped can be done. The other tobhou base classes also got a second school that isn't necessary. They still have it.

Other tobhou classes don't automatically boost the second school they gain however.

Irrelevant. The hermit is still geting a base race and can multiclass a lot more freely with other stuff.
Aye, that's why it is a base class and not a race class. Not much an issue considering the more I change it the less it directly benefits the mechanism of the school. If barely by the end of it. I'd have to make this much more powerful to be on par with the other race classes o_O

I'll admit that I haven't looked at this class in quite a bit, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Bigger enemies taking less damage from cold than smaller enemies? Yep, totally doesn't make sense. Please don't mind the fact that insects and other small animals struggle to live in cold places for the simple fact that indeed having little mass makes you much more vulnerable to freezing to death.
That wouldn't be odd if the size wasn't dependent on the user's size. You want to implement that mechanism to Crystallized Silver? Being Large+ will make nasty adepts.

Never if I have something to say about it. Small is cute, and cute is power in ToBhou!

Absolute immunities are still bad. How about simply a save against deafness, plus still geting a save against auto-deafness?
I could just have it give a simple immunity to Deafness and get a penalty to Listen checks to hear when affected by conditions that makes it hard/impossible to hear. Like -10.
Immunity piercing effects usually give a +5 bonus to the save anyway and/or have a 'get a save against auto-infliction' clause already built-in.
I really should put a clause that states you can make Listen checks for the purpose of executing the martial maneuvers despite your ability to hear, to avoid having a condition that doesn't affect the use of martial abilities do just that.

The schools here aren't really your usual martial abilities, in particular because a good chunk of them are allowing you to mess up stuff bad regardless of your physical prowess.

Anyway penalty to listen checks if deafned works too I guess.

I'll rather have the auras spread around more even than SUPER NOVA mode.
I'm understanding that statement in many ways. I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting. Could you give me an example?

Have trance aura apply when you're NOT in a trance. So you get to pick between trancing goodyness or extra aura goodyness.

[Anomander]

That's debatable. At the end of the day geting some fresh maneuvers is still better than ending up with no maneuvers at all.
Perhaps.
I'd say starting the fight with way more maneuvers (not selected randomly), considering the average length of an encounter, largely compensates for the odds of getting nothing instead of a random maneuver that might not be what you need at all (which is more or less the same as getting nothing that round). But yeah, debatable.

Other tobhou classes don't automatically boost the second school they gain however.
Granted. I'll remove it from the Hermit class and make a feat for it instead. I'll go with a dual school feat that would allow someone in a Dream Battle stance to trance Desire Drive maneuvers and someone in a Desire Drive stance to do something special with Dream Battle maneuvers.

Small is cute.
Not sure about that one.

Have trance aura apply when you're NOT in a trance. So you get to pick between trancing goodyness or extra aura goodyness.
Good idea. I'll think of another name for it considering Trance Aura while out of trance isn't very fitting anymore.

(click to show/hide)

New feat: Desire Dream
(kind of lame name considering it is a mix of Dream Battle and Desire Drive, but it is actually the name of a Ten Desires musical piece, so I thought why not?)
It is the dual feat mentioned above. I went with added maneuver range for the modified Dream Battle maneuvers and the possibility to trance them for an additional target.
I think that the additional target for some of the Dream Battle maneuvers might be a bit too good, but I wonder; you cannot trance the maneuver if you get the Desire Drive stance benefit from an adjacent ally, so you have to to it yourself and you cannot trance maneuvers so often without also having the Transcendent feat, so I hope it's good enough.
The Trance mode player characters get in Ten Desires is too good to give as a single feat (1-2 rounds of invincibility and increased damage that also triggers if you die is nuts even with a recharge requirement), so I tried to keep it interesting without simply going the moar dmg route.

I'll probably also add the option of getting more Wu Wei and BotOwLP abilities using feats.

Unarmed Strikes
Removed the note that multiclassing with monk also progresses the monk's speed feature. Don't see why 1 dip in monk should grant all its speed increases.

Trance Aura
Has now been renamed to Dantian Aura.
They are now only giving benefits while the hermit isn't in trance mode. Change the way the bonus increases to twice the number of Dantian Auras acquired instead of going by maneuver level known, which gives more incentive to progress longer down the class instead of multiclassing.

Shikaisen Essence
After reading that Futo said she could have any appearance as part of the process of becoming a shikaisen, I added that race/gender could be altered in the process since its kind of a reincarnation effect. It would also allow male characters like Toyosatomimi Miko to become female.

A One-Track Paradise/Accelerated Tastes/Blood of the One with Latent Power
Swapped the abilities around for them to make more sense.
Adjusted to deafness immunity and resistance to silence-like effects.
Complete retake on Blood of the One with Latent Power and A One-Track Paradise, considering the removal of the direct access Heavenly Bhavagra.
Instead gave them a few ability options based on the powers of the 10D hermits and gave those Wu Wei requirements to better fit with the Hermits they are inspired by.

Hold Harmony Sacred
This level 19 ability is now the one granting an additional swift action for Turn Undead uses. It is different from the original ability in that it gives special advantages depending on how the swift action is spent.

Transformation of Things
Removed the Xian/Celestial final ability. Thought it was kinda meh and figured I could instead make two short PrC to become Xian or Celestial instead, if I ever find the motivation for it.

Also made some general clarifications on how some abilities are supposed to work on some points I felt a bit unclear.
Will also probably add some pictures too.

The class/school might be subject to some revisions once touhou 13.5 is completely released. I for one anxiously await to see what source material could be used for this.
Such as figuring how exactly Futo's power over Feng Shui is actually meant to work. Not sure its supposed to allow you to throw furniture at your opponents.

[oslecamo]

Ok, changes look good, so time to move to the other abilities:

-Some Wu Wei abilities seem kinda too strong right now:

(click to show/hide)

Death Trance - "Don't die when you're killed" usually takes more than 2 levels. Sugest that when you enter the death trance you cannot be healed for the duration.

Just One's Nature-5  animal companions? Five? Limit it to 1, and even then it's pretty damn strong.

-Ditto for Blood of the One with Latent Power:

(click to show/hide)

Ashen Arm-Extra limbs with bigger reach and base damage and able to affect ethereal/incorporeal are usually pretty good by themselves. A +10 to +20 Str bonus is just overkill. Also if it's invisible, clarify if you can use it to punch people whitout them seeing it coming or pretending you have telekinesis.

Angel Raiment-As a rule of thumb, a +10 bonus to anything that isn't a movement speed or skill is probably overkill for a secondary ability. In particular being a rare bonus like Luck. Either change it to armor or drastically reduce it.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space-Altough the bonus aren't as outrageous, they stack with everything and anything. Plus the ability to supress any and all area effects as a standard action is already pretty potent as a debuff. So would sugest leaving the other bonus as fixed 1%.


True Administrator-Combined with Transcendental Health for a -4 circumstance penalty to saves (increasing to -8 at -19th level) seems a bit too strong.


A One-Track Paradise-Altough I'm all for retaliating with "screw you" to "screw you" abilities

Blood of the Transcendent One-Oh boy now things are geting ridiculous.

(click to show/hide)

Ashen Arm-Grab the moon. Drag it back to your position. As a move action. It doesn't even need to be night because you don't even need line of sight.

Angel Raiment-first part doesn't do anything because you're already immune to AMF from One Track Paradise. Otherwise the 2/day teleport looks good.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space-Keep an ally able to produce extra actions outside the area, rest of the party inside, extra profit. Or you can have a bunch of trapped furtnitures or emplaced weapons/fortifications quickly brought to the battlefield.

True Administrator-Area daze and bestow curse with buffed up DC and some ability damage and damage thrown in for good measure, seems somewhat stronger than your own maneuvers.

A One-Track Paradise-Currently blocks both ill and benefical effects. Is that what you intended?

The Transformation of Things-Pretty strong and original, fiting for 20th level. Would just sugest changing the mass polymorph to fullround action.

[Anomander]

(click to show/hide)

Quick feedback! Thanks!

Wu Wei: Death Trance
I could make it behave more like the death trance in 10D and have it also increase the fire power while it lasts instead. Still, I know you frown on abilities like Death Throes that make dying part of any strategy or otherwise only get useful if you personally lose. There is a 10 hit points margin to avoid death, which might come in handy at the early levels but might not come into effect as often after that. I'm fine with that change, though.

Wu Wei: Just One's Nature
I'd limit it to one use at a time, since SNA can also summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 lower level creatures of the same kind. Summoning again would just dismiss those previously summoned.
Its still one use per day per invested maneuver so summoning freely isn't such a good idea.

Ashen Arm
The extra limb doesn't give more item slots besides being able to hold an item and doesn't grant additional (efficient) attacks unless you're going into Multiweapon feats.
Being able to affect affect ethereal/incorporeal creatures isn't that much of a plus when it can just Trance to do that with all its attacks.
For the strength, I could perhaps do like most Hand spell effects and just give it a static strength score that would improve with class levels instead of giving the hermits the possibility to fight with a Str score similar to most monstrous classes' focused on nonmagical combat. Or maybe have it work off of the Hermit's wisdom score.
I thought saying it was invisible made it clear enough but I'll add a little note. As mentioned by the end, unless you can see invisible stuff, the arm is usually covered for others to see it. Its attacks are as made by an invisible creature if not covered.

Angel Raiment
Can change it to an enhancement bonus to natural armor, considering how Seiga referred a few times to her body being tough as steel/diamond.
Makes me think I could perhaps have it give them a special hardness.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
It sort of debuffs the team too. Like canceling all the Hermit's auras.
As for the other bonus... I'm not sure what else to they could stack with besides maybe the xp increase from Item Familiar, which works with all sorts of xp gains.
I'm mostly trying to make the Blood of the One with Latent Power abilities make it worth it to stick with a class to the end instead of just trading a great capstone for some prc's just as good if not better capstone.
If the % has to be static, I'd have it be at about 10% to have it at least make a noticeable difference otherwise everyone would always just pick the reroll.
Can otherwise drop all the % and go with numbered bonuses but I'd probably have to think of another way to have it work for Wealth and Energy.

True Administrator
Aye, I'll think of something. Maybe give that one its own clause.

Blood of the Transcendent One
Ashen Arm: Yikes. Only meant to be able to bring stuff you can actually carry. Will specify it can only bring back things within carrying capacity and, if w/e is carried is too large to fit in the Hermit's space, it takes its space in squares adjacent to him. Doesn't get carried along if there isn't enough space.

Angel Raiment: Didn't plan on 1track Paradise to work against AMFs considering it's a Su ability, though if it did it wouldn't protect worn equipment since it isn't part of the hermit himself.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space: It'd kinda force the fight within the space but it makes the ability clunky. It could instead prevent time effects up to 1 mile outside (and inside) of it or limit it to those within to be able to act during extra rounds like time stop (while still maintaining the timestop clause that creatures in normal time are invulnerable etc), even though it might make that aspect of the ability apply in very specific cases. I've no problem with the possibility of more or less calling in a small fortress that would fit the small area of that ability.

True Administrator: I thought it'd be about as good as one if the damage wasn't so awful but you're right. Perhaps I should go with having it prevent enemies from activating buffs while within the aura (not affecting those already in place) and be able to shift ppl in the material/ethereal with an action, maybe being able to return to the original plane by leaving the aura if they win a save vs the 1 round/class level dimensional lock.

A One-Track Paradise
Already had fixed that one but forgot to click the save button on that modify post tab. It works on ill effects only otherwise it could be interpreted as negating just about all of his feats, class abilities and magic items and other silly stuff like gravity. I'll keep an open mind on adding clauses for specific ill effects that should always bypass this that I wouldn't have thought about.

The Transformation of Things
I agree. Will be changed along with the rest of the fixes. I had considered making the 'closer to gods than mortals' thing more literal by removing the need to breath and giving them a virtual divine rank of 1 that wouldn't grant them any demigod stuff but mostly qualify them for learning venerable battlefield maneuvers since taoism relies on faith power to a point, but is independent on the need for worshipers, but figured I could maybe keep that idea for a Xian/Celestial prc or something.

[oslecamo]

(click to show/hide)

Wu Wei: Death Trance
I could make it behave more like the death trance in 10D and have it also increase the fire power while it lasts instead. Still, I know you frown on abilities like Death Throes that make dying part of any strategy or otherwise only get useful if you personally lose. There is a 10 hit points margin to avoid death, which might come in handy at the early levels but might not come into effect as often after that. I'm fine with that change, though.

Where did you get that idea? I actually quite like "Taking you down with me" abilities, in particular if they're optional (check my mecha mook and chaos cultist).

Wu Wei: Just One's Nature
I'd limit it to one use at a time, since SNA can also summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 lower level creatures of the same kind. Summoning again would just dismiss those previously summoned.
Its still one use per day per invested maneuver so summoning freely isn't such a good idea.

Yes, if you want multiple animals just use the summon multiples option. However since the school has plenty of ally buffs, they'll still lay down quite a bit of hurt before going down.

Ashen Arm
The extra limb doesn't give more item slots besides being able to hold an item and doesn't grant additional (efficient) attacks unless you're going into Multiweapon feats.
Being able to affect affect ethereal/incorporeal creatures isn't that much of a plus when it can just Trance to do that with all its attacks.
For the strength, I could perhaps do like most Hand spell effects and just give it a static strength score that would improve with class levels instead of giving the hermits the possibility to fight with a Str score similar to most monstrous classes' focused on nonmagical combat. Or maybe have it work off of the Hermit's wisdom score.
I thought saying it was invisible made it clear enough but I'll add a little note. As mentioned by the end, unless you can see invisible stuff, the arm is usually covered for others to see it. Its attacks are as made by an invisible creature if not covered.

Why don't you just let the arm use the hermit's normal stats? Invisible pseudo-ethereal extra arm already sounds a pretty good deal to me. Plus a limb with diferent ability scores than your main body just rises a bunch of rules issues on when you use one or the other.

Angel Raiment
Can change it to an enhancement bonus to natural armor, considering how Seiga referred a few times to her body being tough as steel/diamond.
Makes me think I could perhaps have it give them a special hardness.

Base natural armor. It's a big bonus, so it shouldn't be stacking with other big bonuses.
Or Hardness. That's another hard to get one.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
It sort of debuffs the team too. Like canceling all the Hermit's auras.

Just create the aura in a position that affects enemies but not allies? Basic combat tactics. You don't summon "screw you" area effects so they envelop both enemies and allies, you summon them over the enemies.

As for the other bonus... I'm not sure what else to they could stack with besides maybe the xp increase from Item Familiar, which works with all sorts of xp gains.
I'm mostly trying to make the Blood of the One with Latent Power abilities make it worth it to stick with a class to the end instead of just trading a great capstone for some prc's just as good if not better capstone.
If the % has to be static, I'd have it be at about 10% to have it at least make a noticeable difference otherwise everyone would always just pick the reroll.
Can otherwise drop all the % and go with numbered bonuses but I'd probably have to think of another way to have it work for Wealth and Energy.

10% fixed bonus then. Extra wealth still stacks with cost reductions, extra HP still stacks with temp HPs and Con bonus and whatnot.

Anyway you're doing well in trying to make the class worth stickying for 20 levels, however some of the stuff you had here would make the class worth taking even if you never gained maneuvers if you ask me.

True Administrator
Aye, I'll think of something. Maybe give that one its own clause.

Good plan.

Blood of the Transcendent One
Ashen Arm: Yikes. Only meant to be able to bring stuff you can actually carry. Will specify it can only bring back things within carrying capacity and, if w/e is carried is too large to fit in the Hermit's space, it takes its space in squares adjacent to him. Doesn't get carried along if there isn't enough space.

I would prefer if you limited it to light load, because max carrying capacity is usually still pretty high.

Also, you mean it is suposed to be able to grab stuff whitout need of line of sight? Isn't that kinda too imba considering it would mean you can just grab anything in the world as long as there's a somewhat clear path to it?

Angel Raiment: Didn't plan on 1track Paradise to work against AMFs considering it's a Su ability, though if it did it wouldn't protect worn equipment since it isn't part of the hermit himself.

Well you should clarify that then.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space: It'd kinda force the fight within the space but it makes the ability clunky. It could instead prevent time effects up to 1 mile outside (and inside) of it or limit it to those within to be able to act during extra rounds like time stop (while still maintaining the timestop clause that creatures in normal time are invulnerable etc), even though it might make that aspect of the ability apply in very specific cases. I've no problem with the possibility of more or less calling in a small fortress that would fit the small area of that ability.

Why not just limit it then to fortress summoning and blocking extra actions? Still pretty damn sweet.

True Administrator: I thought it'd be about as good as one if the damage wasn't so awful but you're right. Perhaps I should go with having it prevent enemies from activating buffs while within the aura (not affecting those already in place) and be able to shift ppl in the material/ethereal with an action, maybe being able to return to the original plane by leaving the aura if they win a save vs the 1 round/class level dimensional lock.

Sounds good.

A One-Track Paradise
Already had fixed that one but forgot to click the save button on that modify post tab. It works on ill effects only otherwise it could be interpreted as negating just about all of his feats, class abilities and magic items and other silly stuff like gravity. I'll keep an open mind on adding clauses for specific ill effects that should always bypass this that I wouldn't have thought about.

See, this was what I was talking about. This ability is pretty damn strong,and you're still gaining one more stance and readied maneuver at 10th. Any chance I can convince you to make it apply only while trancing?

The Transformation of Things
I agree. Will be changed along with the rest of the fixes. I had considered making the 'closer to gods than mortals' thing more literal by removing the need to breath and giving them a virtual divine rank of 1 that wouldn't grant them any demigod stuff but mostly qualify them for learning venerable battlefield maneuvers since taoism relies on faith power to a point, but is independent on the need for worshipers, but figured I could maybe keep that idea for a Xian/Celestial prc or something.

Tobhou prcs, ho!

Speaking of which, after some talk with Raineh Daze I'm planning on making Shikieiki Yamaxanadu as  Prc only entereable at 19th with an "epic" school with just 10+ level maneuvers/stances, since she's suposed to be the ultimate authority and stuff.

[Anomander]

(click to show/hide)

Wu Wei: Death Trance
Where did you get that idea? I actually quite like "Taking you down with me" abilities, in particular if they're optional (check my mecha mook and chaos cultist).

I recall quite a while back, maybe it was in the Brilliant Gameologist boards, you suggested that someone makes a change to his monster class' death-throes-like ability since you didn't like abilities that were useful only if you died. (without any kind of backdoor to, in fact, not die after all, like the Balor's).
Which is all the more significant in abilities with numerous options; why choose an ability that only works if your character dies when you can instead get something that can actually help you win the fight without getting killed.

That aside, a no healing clause makes it become a way to screw yourself up if it activates between -10 and 1 hit points. Specifying that if you ever reach an amount of hit points that would normally kill you during the Death Trance, you automatically die at the end of that round (no matter how much you heal after reaching that hp).
That with the firepower buff would make for a more interesting ability. Maybe bonus damage scaling with class levels or a free strike maneuver. Something that'd mimic the original Death Trance somewhat.

Wu Wei: Just One's Nature
Alright then.
You wouldn't really want them to go down, though. If they die or are replaced because you'd need something else, you're still one readied maneuver short each time for the rest of the day.

Ashen Arm
I recall a spell making one of your arms uber and giving rules on how it worked, but I agree it is needless complications.

Angel Raiment
Sill works with the idea. I'm cool with that.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
To be honest it feels much more like an ability that would be useful with the party in it than the enemy. Once it is set, its a pain to move it so unless you're sure the enemy can't just leave it that might not be its best use.
Usually enemies could just move out of it and do their nukes anyway. If something is preventing them from moving around well, odds are its an AoE that would be suppressed anyway.
Its more of a place you want to end your turn within so that when the enemies get their turn, everyone can be together without getting nuked.

BotT1: Ashen Arm
Don't mind light load for the purpose of bringing objects. The idea was also to be able to pull creatures to you the way Kasen uses it in the second volume.
Could mention that after a creature is grappled the action of moving a grappled creature could be done to pull it to you.
I didn't need line of sight but I suppose I'll have it be able to be sent to any place that is seen. The arm was going to blind-fight if sent somewhere that wasn't perceived but never mind that.

BotT1: Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
I meant that the extra action effects wouldn't be stopped anymore. Just allow those within to experience the extra rounds of time stop-like effects.
Blocking actions isn't so nice considering it is mostly useful defensively, unless the whole fortress idea is more like a trap thing to put enemies in some kind of spherical maze. Could work if it was enemy only, making the field's location more useful if used offensively, even though enemies could still just move out of it to activate their extra actions unless they are somehow forced to stay inside. Which reminds me I should probably just give a limit on the size and amount of objects occupying a noticeable amount of space. Mostly meant to provide cover and be thrown at people.

A One-Track Paradise
Certainly. It fits well with the idea behind it. As long as you don't mind it for the same reason you requested that the class abilities do not particularly benefit Trance Mode.


Speaking of which, after some talk with Raineh Daze I'm planning on making Shikieiki Yamaxanadu as  Prc only entereable at 19th with an "epic" school with just 10+ level maneuvers/stances, since she's suposed to be the ultimate authority and stuff.
Neat. Never been a fan of her though. Wouldn't it be more fitting to have it be available at level 21? That's when epic begins. Why grant epic maneuvers before epic?

As far as new schools go, I'd like to eventually make the one for the Buddhists. Probably mostly Byakuren (though hers might be too different to fit), Ichirin and Kyouko. Maybe also want to do Tenchi's.
Only worried the new game might give them so many new abilities they easily fill a discipline by themselves.

[Raineh Daze]

Honestly, pairing Byakuren with Ichirin and Kyouko (no Shou?) would result in something inherently contradictory in origin. Byakuren is a magician/monk that specialises in buffs, Ichirin basically uses laserspam and hangs around with Unzan, and Kyouko... is an echo youkai and in no way connected.

So, let's see:
Buddhist Monk turned Magic-User;
Buddhist Monk who has unidentified laserspam, but her main strength is that Unzan protects her;
Echo Youkai that sweeps the floors.
Oh, and Toramaru: tiger youkai, avatar of bishamonten, laser lantern.

There's... no theme to that. Grouping them on 'live together' means you could add Nazrin, too. Nue and Mamizou are possible, since they moved in.

The thing about all them is that they're too incoherent to make a school; buffs and some general magic, lasers and a giant punching cloud, controls sound or something, magic lantern that basically summons a huge spinning cross, dowsing abilities, illusions, and shapeshifting. Magician, unidentified youkai protected by a nyuudou, echo youkai, avatar of a god, mouse youkai, the nue, tanuki.

[Anomander]

No theme? I didn't mention those that were just living at the temple; I mentioned those that are actually related to Buddhism. Just as the Hermits are connected by Taoism.
I'd add Shou if she hadn't been bundled up already with the gods for being the disciple of a deity of Buddhism.
They share that religious element and connection in their character design and spellcards.

[Raineh Daze]

Umm... not seeing any shared design (Ichirin is the only one dressed properly) or spellcard theme. Fully half of Byakuren's are straightforward magic attacks, and there is certainly no Buddhist relationship to 'Devil's Recitation'.  Hell, only two Buddhist references in her cards: 'Syncretism "Manifestation of Mahavairocana"', and 'Good Omen "Nirvana's Cloudy Way in Purple"' (which is a reference to her brother, too). Ichirin's all refer to punching the hell out of things (since Unzan does the heavy lifting), and Kyouko's are all about sound.

Even visually, there's not anything like that. Ichirin has Unzan going on, Kyouko has that bullet-containment thing, and Byakuren has the butterfly... thing. And her scroll.

Drawing a connection simply because 'buddhism' isn't much of an origin for the school when everyone's going in different directions. They hardly all draw on one skill or ability. :/

[oslecamo]

(click to show/hide)

Wu Wei: Death Trance
Where did you get that idea? I actually quite like "Taking you down with me" abilities, in particular if they're optional (check my mecha mook and chaos cultist).

I recall quite a while back, maybe it was in the Brilliant Gameologist boards, you suggested that someone makes a change to his monster class' death-throes-like ability since you didn't like abilities that were useful only if you died. (without any kind of backdoor to, in fact, not die after all, like the Balor's).
Which is all the more significant in abilities with numerous options; why choose an ability that only works if your character dies when you can instead get something that can actually help you win the fight without getting killed.

That aside, a no healing clause makes it become a way to screw yourself up if it activates between -10 and 1 hit points. Specifying that if you ever reach an amount of hit points that would normally kill you during the Death Trance, you automatically die at the end of that round (no matter how much you heal after reaching that hp).
That with the firepower buff would make for a more interesting ability. Maybe bonus damage scaling with class levels or a free strike maneuver. Something that'd mimic the original Death Trance somewhat.

Keep the extra firepower limited then. One more round whitout going down is still pretty powerful for 2nd level.

Wu Wei: Just One's Nature
Alright then.
You wouldn't really want them to go down, though. If they die or are replaced because you'd need something else, you're still one readied maneuver short each time for the rest of the day.

Well, that's for what your crusader pal with infinite healing is for. Animals are usually pretty durable.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
To be honest it feels much more like an ability that would be useful with the party in it than the enemy. Once it is set, its a pain to move it so unless you're sure the enemy can't just leave it that might not be its best use.
Usually enemies could just move out of it and do their nukes anyway. If something is preventing them from moving around well, odds are its an AoE that would be suppressed anyway.
Its more of a place you want to end your turn within so that when the enemies get their turn, everyone can be together without getting nuked.

What, you mean your tank friends aoo-machines didn't move in to get a bunch of extra attacks?

Even if it just lasts 1 round, auto-supressing enemy auras is still quite good, and extra exp/gold/HP/rerolls is another quite nice bonus on its own.

BotT1: Ashen Arm
Don't mind light load for the purpose of bringing objects. The idea was also to be able to pull creatures to you the way Kasen uses it in the second volume.
Could mention that after a creature is grappled the action of moving a grappled creature could be done to pull it to you.
I didn't need line of sight but I suppose I'll have it be able to be sent to any place that is seen. The arm was going to blind-fight if sent somewhere that wasn't perceived but never mind that.

That sounds better.

BotT1: Heavenly Time and Earthly Space
I meant that the extra action effects wouldn't be stopped anymore. Just allow those within to experience the extra rounds of time stop-like effects.
Blocking actions isn't so nice considering it is mostly useful defensively, unless the whole fortress idea is more like a trap thing to put enemies in some kind of spherical maze. Could work if it was enemy only, making the field's location more useful if used offensively, even though enemies could still just move out of it to activate their extra actions unless they are somehow forced to stay inside. Which reminds me I should probably just give a limit on the size and amount of objects occupying a noticeable amount of space. Mostly meant to provide cover and be thrown at people.

Yeah that sounds better as well.

A One-Track Paradise
Certainly. It fits well with the idea behind it. As long as you don't mind it for the same reason you requested that the class abilities do not particularly benefit Trance Mode.

Well, this one was working all the time before, so only working during trance is still a powerdown.

Speaking of which, after some talk with Raineh Daze I'm planning on making Shikieiki Yamaxanadu as  Prc only entereable at 19th with an "epic" school with just 10+ level maneuvers/stances, since she's suposed to be the ultimate authority and stuff.
Neat. Never been a fan of her though. Wouldn't it be more fitting to have it be available at level 21? That's when epic begins. Why grant epic maneuvers before epic?

19 IL needed for 10th level maneuvers. Also spellcasters got their 9th level spells two levels ago.

As far as new schools go, I'd like to eventually make the one for the Buddhists. Probably mostly Byakuren (though hers might be too different to fit), Ichirin and Kyouko. Maybe also want to do Tenchi's.
Only worried the new game might give them so many new abilities they easily fill a discipline by themselves.

Why do you think I haven't touched in any of the characters from Touhou 12 and 13? Well, except the tiger girl, but she was just screaming to be included in Divine Battlefield.

[Anomander]

Alright! I'll patch the thing once I find the time for it.

19 IL needed for 10th level maneuvers. Also spellcasters got their 9th level spells two levels ago.
And initiators got their 9th level maneuvers two levels ago too. 10 level spells/maneuvers/powers aren't meant to be available pre-epic. That is kinda why they are epic.

Why do you think I haven't touched in any of the characters from Touhou 12 and 13? Well, except the tiger girl, but she was just screaming to be included in Divine Battlefield.
Certainly makes sense. I learned about 13.5 long after finishing Desire Drive. Even Utsuho is coming back!

Not sure about Shou though, since she is a disciple just as Reimu is a priestess of Shinto gods. To be honest, VDB probably should have been limited to actual gods only.
Like... the familiar of a disciple. Aya isn't a god at all either. Some of her spellcards got god in their name but that's all. I mean, Chen got spellcards called Oni God and Remilia got spellcards called God Art, but that doesn't make them gods.

[Raineh Daze]

Shou makes more sense than Aya, I have to say. At least she's the direct avatar of Bishamonten.

I don't think Byakuren is really suitable for a ToB school. She is, quite literally, a monk turned magician with a speciality in buffs.

Relevant:

Possessions
Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll
Created while Byakuren was in Makai, the Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll is unique to her. The sutras Byakuren needs in order to use her power are written on it. It has an automatic mode, which will cause it to recite spells on its own. Compared to a regular paper scroll, the amount the Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll holds is limitless. It is also said that this scroll won't deteriorate over time. Lastly, because it has a "will" of its own, no one except for Byakuren is able to handle it.

[Anomander]

Agreed, though the discipline's maneuvers spent on an avatar's spellcards could have instead been assigned to spellcards of actual gods.

The possibility of making the Buddhist discipline and developing Byakuren is a topic I really care not to discuss much until 13.5 is released. There is just no point to it.

Though I'll just note that the tobhou disciplines have a spellcaster transition mechanic implemented in them, and it is not without precedent, like Alice's puppet discipline.

The Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll is some kind of Buddhist artefact that could likely also hold martial scripts. Its a piece of equipment. Doesn't change much though it perhaps could give a concept on how her discipline's maneuvers and stances could be executed.

[Raineh Daze]

Nope, the scroll is something she made in Makai. No artefact, here, it was literally made in Hell (Touhou has too many hells. It's somewhat annoying).

The scroll she carries (called the Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll) contains the sutras she needs to use her abilities. By saying "contains", it does not mean the sutras are written on paper, but the scroll itself is made purely of these incantations(*4).

Because of that, it is lighter than a paper scroll and the amount of content it can contain is almost infinite. Moreover, it is reputed that it does not deteriorate with time. It even comes equipped with an auto-chanting mode; simply wave it over your head and it will recite spells on its own, apparently.

It is said that she made it to while away the free time she had while sealed in Makai. Many of the materials found in Makai contain their own will. Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll also has its own will, meaning other people are unable to handle it. In Gensokyo, such items are called "cursed". Therefore, the Sorcerer's Sutra Scroll is cursed(*5).

Neither does much of her power stem from Buddhist stuff, at least not any more:

Although she entered priesthood, for some reason she is beloved by youkai. She does not banish demons with holy incantations like in fairy tales. Although she acts like a saint, the powers she wields are evil. Though never seen as hostile towards humans, ultimately, she's an ally of the youkai.

Her magic is derived from her mastery of Buddhism. However, she's strayed from the path of Mahayana Buddhism (*3) and possesses demonic power. Most likely she won't be able to enter Nirvana.

The possibility of making a Buddhist discipline is effectively nil without warping the things used as a basis, because the one person to draw any power from it also uses straightforward black magic. Neither Kyoko or Ichirin use anything more than their natural abilities. 

Byakuren discipline seems weird (Alice at least has the benefit of using physical objects, and it's not like the discipline includes anything she can do with that Grimoire) but at least more plausible than a Buddhist one. XD