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Creative Corner => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Topic started by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:27:14 PM

Title: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:27:14 PM
Thought Magic

UPDATE: Work on this system has moved to my magic system compendium, the Book of Seven Secrets, here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=132.0). This post is out of date, and changes and added features will be over there.


Somewhere between the commonplace magic of Wizards and Clerics and the mental abilities of Psions is Thought Magic, the power to let ideas tug forcefully at the fabric of existence until they make themselves real. Unlike magic and psionics, however, Thought Magic can't be so easily controlled. Thought magic users, or thinkers, can't merely utter the right words and make the right motions to shape the world around them; rather, at any given moment, they only have access to a few random notions that flit around their mind, and thus to only a few, randomly-chosen, magical effects that they can produce.


Ideas as Cards

Mechanically, Thought Magic is played with a subset of a standard 52-card deck of playing cards. On the character sheet, the thinker lists all of her known abilities, called ideas, as well as the cards representing them, and how many of each card should be in her deck, which represents her subconscious mind. These factors are constrained by class level in a thinker class. A valid deck cannot contain more than 2 copies of any given idea, and no more than 26 different ideas overall. This is both for balance reasons and to allow for the easy use of standard playing cards - each idea can be labeled by a color and number/face, such as red 5 (5 of hearts/diamonds) or black queen (queen of clubs/spades). Each day, a thinker must rest for 8 hours and then spend 10 minutes in uninterrupted contemplation; during these 10 minutes, the thinker decides how she will structure her deck for that day.

For instance, a 1st-level Creative's deck contains 5 0th-level ideas and 5 1st-level ideas. When she builds her deck, she chooses which ideas to fill those slots, out of the ideas that she knows (both her deck composition and ideas known are level-dependent and are described in Table: The Creative). Then she lists on her character sheet which card (number and color) corresponds to that idea in her deck. For instance, she could write:

She could then put 2 red aces (one of hearts, one of diamonds), a black ace, a red 2, and a black 2 into her deck to represent her 5 0th-level ideas, and 2 each of a red 3 and a black 3, as well as a single red 4, to represent her 5 1st-level ideas. Any time she draws a black 2, for instance, she knows that she has access to the idea Envision Auras. This is only one possible composition; she could have instead used only 1 red ace and 2 black aces, if she preferred Ponder to appear less often than Fleeting Inspiration. Any composition is allowed as long as she uses the correct total number of ideas of each level and has no more than 2 copies of any idea.

Whenever the thinker begins a new period of fluid thought (typically at the start of an encounter, but see "Focused vs Fluid Thinking"), as well as at the end of each of the thinker's turns during that period, she draws a hand of 3 cards + 1 per 4 levels after 1st, as indicated on the class tables below ("Hand Size"). During her turn, she can bring into effect, or express, any ideas represented in her hand by playing them in front of her. Ideas already expressed in this way are considered neither in her hand nor discarded until she has finished her actions for the turn. At that point, all expressed ideas, as well as those remaining in her hand, are discarded. Any time she is required to draw or examine an idea on top of her deck (such as at the end of her turn or if directed by another idea) and her deck is empty, her discard pile is immediately shuffled and becomes her deck. This can occur at any time; for instance, if the remaining deck is smaller than the size of a hand to be drawn, then what remains of the deck is drawn, the discard pile is shuffled and replaces the deck, and then the rest of the hand is drawn from there, and the process continues.

In this way, the ideas that a character knows are made available to her a few at a time, and in a random order, but given a long enough encounter, she will have the chance to express them again. This is similar to the maneuver recovery mechanic of the Crusader class from Tome of Battle, though at a much faster pace. The exception to this cycle of discarding, shuffling, and drawing cards again is the concept of "retiring" ideas. If an idea states that it or a different idea is to be "retired," it is removed entirely. It is not discarded and will not reenter the deck at any point, and the deck composition becomes smaller from that point on. After her period of fluid thinking ends, however, retired ideas are shuffled into the deck along with cards in the hand and discard pile, ready for the next combat.

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Expressing Ideas

Expressing each idea requires an action, usually a move action (though ideas that manipulate the deck and each other are generally free actions). Therefore, a thinker is often restricted to producing at most two magical effects per turn. If a thinker is granted additional actions due to an effect not related to Thought Magic, such as the magic item Belt of Battle, she may not use those actions to express ideas. Many of the ideas in hand may go unused, and are discarded at the end of the turn before drawing again, just like expressed ideas.

In addition, thinkers require flashes of inspiration to fuel their magic, which takes the form of Insight Points (IP). Unless otherwise stated in its description, an idea cannot be expressed unless the thinker spends 1 IP. The idea may also allow her to augment it, spending more than 1 IP to produce a more powerful effect, though she cannot spend more additional IP on an idea than 1 per 4 levels after 1st, as shown on the class tables ("Aug. Limit"). When in a period of fluid thought (see "Focused vs Fluid Thinking" below), a thinker starts each turn with 1 IP, and some ideas may grant her more. Any IP gained during a turn is lost at the end of the turn unless stated otherwise.

Ideas are spell-like abilities, and function in every way not mentioned here as spells. Though they cannot be affected by meta-ability feats such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability or sudden metamagic feats, they can be dispelled, may be subject to spell resistance, do not function in an Antimagic Field, and so on. They interact differently with energy resistance and damage reduction, however; ideas that deal direct damage treat ER and DR as halved (rounded down). Any idea with a move-action expressing time or longer provokes attacks of opportunity unless the thinker expresses defensively (same Concentration DC as casting defensively). The DC against an idea is 10 + the idea's level + the thinker's primary expressing modifier (Charisma for Creatives, Wisdom for Philosophers, and Intelligence for Strategists).

Thought magic can be progressed by prestige classes, obtaining an increase to their effective level for the purpose of deck composition, ideas known, hand size, augment limit, and thinker level (the equivalent of caster level) at each level that advances casting (even if it specifies arcane or divine spellcasting level). Thought magic cannot, however, be progressed by prestige classes that progress multiple classes in one level, such as the Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, Anima Mage, or Ruby Knight Vindicator. Thinkers can meet "able to cast X-level spells" prerequisites of feats and prestige classes if they can express ideas of that level or higher, even if they specify arcane or divine magic - though thought magic counts as neither for all other purposes. They can also meet caster level prerequisites, using their thinker level instead. Other types of casting prerequisites, such as those that specify spontaneous or prepared casting, cannot be fulfilled by thought magic.


Focused vs Fluid Thinking

The process described above, of drawing and discarding hands of cards, occurs only during what are known as periods of "fluid thinking." This way of thinking is highly adaptable and well-suited to the chaos of a battle. A thinker can enter a period of fluid thought as a free action, and it lasts 2 minutes (20 rounds), or until she dismisses it as a free action. After a period of fluid thought ends or is dismissed, the thinker must wait 1 full round before she can begin a new period of thought.

Alternatively, as a free action, a thinker can assume a more rigid mode of thought, useful for expressing thought magic outside of combat. This mode, called "focused thinking," takes enormous concentration, so it can only be maintained for 1 round at a time rather than 20, but it allows ideas to be called reliably to mind rather than randomly. During this round, the thinker chooses up to 3 ideas from her deck composition and treats them as though they were in her hand. She may express one or more of them normally without paying their IP costs (though she must still spend their corresponding expressing times), and she may treat each of them as though it were augmented by a number of IP up to her augment limit. Unlike fluid thinking, there is no need to wait a round after a period of focused thinking ends before another period of thought (fluid or focused) can be entered.

However, this reliability and power comes with significant limitations. A period of focused thinking cannot be dismissed - it always lasts a full round. During that time, if any attack occurs within 30 feet of the thinker, she loses concentration and becomes Dazed for 1d4 rounds (even if the attack misses or otherwise has no effect). This condition cannot be avoided or shortened in any way, including immunity to Daze effects. Similarly, if a thinker attempts to enter a period of focused thinking in a distracting environment, such as on a storm-tossed ship or while Entangled, she must succeed on the corresponding Concentration check or be unavoidably Dazed instead. Ideas expressed during periods of focused thought cannot be expressed defensively; if an attack of opportunity targets her in response to her idea, whether or not the attack is successful, the thinker loses the idea and is Dazed.

Effects that cause cards to be drawn, discarded, or retired do not occur during periods of focused thought (ideas may have functional effects in addition to their negated card-manipulation effects). IP cannot be gained in any way during focused thought. Since ideas in a period of focused thought are selected from the deck composition, an idea can only be expressed twice in a single period if the thinker's deck contains 2 copies of that idea.

Thinkers can only perform a limited number of periods of thinking (focused and fluid) per day before needing to rest for 8 hours. A thinker can enter a period of thinking a number of times per day equal to her hand size + 1/2 her primary expressing modifier (rounded down, minimum 3 total). These daily uses are gained at the start of the day, and thus don't increase or decrease if the thinker's expressing modifier changes during the day.


Multiclassing

A character with levels in multiple thinker classes keeps track separately of the ideas gained from each class. She makes multiple decks, each satisfying the requirements of a single thinker class and only containing ideas known on that class's list, and only then does she shuffle all of her decks together and use them as a single deck in combat. Note that multiclassing does not allow a character to circumvent the limit of 2 of the same idea per deck, even if that idea can be learned by multiple thinker classes. Nor can she have more than 26 types of cards in her deck.

Add all of her levels in thinker classes for the purpose of determining her hand size, maximum IP per idea, and thinker level. In addition, multiclass thinkers gain +1 to their hand size for each thinking class they have after the first. A multiclass thinker can choose which of her thinker classes' primary expressing modifiers to use for determining the DC's for all of her ideas, regardless of which class they came from. She makes this choice each time she takes her first level in a new thinker class - once made, this choice is permanent. This primary expressing modifier also determines her number of daily uses of Thought Magic (see "Focused vs Fluid Thinking", above).


Types of Ideas

Some ideas work in special ways, as indicated below:


Changelog

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Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:28:14 PM
THE CREATIVE

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/04/4b/47044bc3aa02db97a3c2f6ba10dabf5f.jpg)

"Ooh, I just had the most wonderful idea!"
-Meli, a Creative, shortly before frying ten hobgoblins with a bolt of lightning

Creatives are free-thinking, with a style that’s unrestrained and grows increasingly fast-paced and chaotic throughout an encounter. Their minds are constantly in flux, giving rise both to ingenious works of art and to a complexity in combat that mystifies even other thinkers.

As far as their ideas' effects are concerned, Creatives have options ranging from illusions and enchantments to powerful evocations, bolstered by "meta"-ideas like Empower Idea that no other class has access to. But the true strength of the Creative lies in the multitude of ways that they draw, shuffle, and retire cards. They are the only thought magic class to be able to reliably remove cards from their deck with Creative Process, allowing them to streamline their turns and get access to better ideas on average, though this is only one of many play-styles available to them.

MAKING A CREATIVE

Abilities: Creatives’ idea DC’s are based on their Charisma Modifier. As always, Dexterity and Constitution are vital defensive abilities.
Races: Most every race has a creative spark among its members. The versatility of humans in particular makes them well-suited for this class.
Alignment: Any
Starting Gold: As Bard
Starting Age: As Bard
   
Class Skills
The Creative’s class skills are Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Diplomacy, Forgery, Hide, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Search, Spot, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + int) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + int

Table: The CreativeHD: d6


Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Base
Attack
Bonus
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5
+11/+6/+1
+12/+7/+2
+12/+7/+2
+13/+8/+3
+14/+9/+4
+15/+10/+5

Fort
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Ref
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12

Will
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12


Special                                 
Inspired (1/day)
Imaginary Friend I
Artistry
Fast Learner (Skills)
Imaginary Friend II
On My Mind (1/day)
Inspired (2/day)
Imaginary Friend III
Create Object
Fast Learner (Feats)
Imaginary Friend IV
Inspired (3/day)
On My Mind (2/day)
Imaginary Friend V
Worldbuilding
Fast Learner (Ideas)

Hand
Size
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
6
6
6
6
7
7
7
7

Aug.
Limit
0
0
0
0
1
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
Deck Composition
 
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
55
46
37
362
363
364
2552
2553
2554
14552
14553
14554
034552
034553
034554
0234552
0234553
0234554
0234555
0234556
Ideas Known
 
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
85
86
87
872
873
884
8852
8863
8864
88652
88763
88764
887652
888763
888764
8887652
8888763
8888764
8888765
8888876


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Creatives are proficient with all simple weapons, the heavy pick, bastard sword, whip, and bolas, and with light armor and light shields.

Ideas: The Creative begins play knowing 6 0th-level ideas and 3 1st-level ideas. At every subsequent level, the Creative learns one or more new ideas as given in the Ideas Known section of the table above, and can use between 0 and 2 of each to create the deck composition that corresponds to her level (as given in the Deck Composition section of the table). She may choose lower-level ideas whenever she would be allowed higher-level ones, both when learning new ideas known and when building her deck. At 2nd level and each level afterward, she may exchange one idea known for another idea of her choice of that level or lower. The DC for her ideas is 10 + the idea's level + her Charisma modifier.

Inspired: Even if an idea isn't useful in the moment, the Creative can at least gain insight from it. As a free action, she may discard an idea in her hand and gain +1 IP for that turn. This ability is usable once per day at 1st level, and at 8th and 15th level, she gains an additional use per day. It cannot be used more than once per round.

Imaginary Friend: At 2nd level, the Creative gains the aid of a loyal companion, an imaginary friend. An imaginary friend is transparent, lacking color altogether, so it appears invisible (+20 to Hide, +40 when immobile) even against effects such as See Invisibility or True Seeing. It does have a physical form, however, so Blindsense, Blindsight, and Tremorsense can locate it. The Creative always knows where her friend is, though she can't see it herself without one of these special vision modes. She can, however, hear it. To her ears, it can speak intelligibly in any language that she can understand, and it can understand her in return. No other characters, regardless of any special senses, can hear the imaginary friend speak.

As the Creative's imagination becomes more powerful, her friend can take on a variety of forms. It can share the effects of the Creative's ideas as the Share Spells feature of a familiar. Its skill ranks and mental ability scores are half of the Creative's, and its saving throws and HD are the same as the Creative's. It does not gain feats except as described below. Though it is intelligent, it cannot use spell-trigger, spell-completion or use-activated magic items, nor is it proficient with any weapons or armor (except as noted below). Determine all other attributes, such as AC, BAB and HP, from its base stats as described below. It always has a BAB equal to its HD and d8 hit dice.

Whenever the Creative has the ability to gain a new friend, she may select either the form made available to her most recently or any of the forms detailed at lower levels. A new imaginary friend can be created either when an old one dies or when the Creative dismisses it (a free action), but either way, the process requires 24 uninterrupted hours of concentration.

Initially, the friend is Small-sized, with only a vaguely-humanoid shape. It has Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of 8 and a movement rate of 20 feet. It cannot attack in any way, but can carry objects and make skill checks.

At level 6, the Creative's imaginary friend becomes more developed, taking the form of a Medium-sized humanoid. It has Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of 14 and a movement rate of 30, and may be equipped with a transparent melee weapon that the Creative imagines into existence with a full minute of intense focus. The melee weapon can be of any mundane type, including double weapons or exotic weapons, and the friend is considered proficient with any weapon created for it. The weapon is not considered to be of any special material, and it is not masterwork. It vanishes if it is ever separated from the imaginary friend for whom it was created. Conversely, while the imaginary friend can pick up and use other weapons, it takes non-proficiency penalties with them, even if it is simultaneously proficient with a weapon created for it that is of an otherwise identical type.

By level 10, the imaginary friend begins to seem decidedly non-humanoid. It grows to Large size, its Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores improve to 20, its movement rate increases to 40, and it gains two claw attacks and a bite attack typical for its size (1d4 and 1d8 at Large size, respectively). It is able to use all three on a full-attack, and gains the Multiattack feat. Finally, should anyone touch it or attack it, they would notice that it is now protected by scales, or perhaps some kind of chitin. This provides it a +6 natural armor bonus to AC.

At level 14, the Creative's imagination spreads out of control. Her imaginary friend becomes Huge, its Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores increase to 26, and its movement rate reaches 50 feet. Its natural armor becomes more durable, instead granting it a +10 natural armor bonus to AC, and now also resulting in DR 5/-. More shockingly, it has developed a pair of wings that, while as transparent as the rest of its body, have a leathery texture and move noisily with poor maneuverability, also at 50 feet.

At level 18, the full, monstrous form that the Creative had brought into being is revealed. The imaginary friend is now Gargantuan, with Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of 32 and a base land speed of 60 feet. Its flight now has good maneuverability and a speed of 90 feet, its armor bonus is +15, and its damage reduction rises to 10/-. It gains 4 tentacles which erupt from its back, each with a base damage of 1d8. It uses all of them as secondary weapons whenever it makes a full attack.

Artistry: Though a Creative's skills truly shine on the battlefield, few can compare when it comes to the mundane arts such as painting and music. At level 3, she gains a +3 bonus to Craft checks, Perform checks, and Profession checks which involve creativity such as Profession (Writer).

Fast Learner: The Creatives are notorious among thinkers for their ability to quickly pick up new skills and ways of thinking. She gains the ability to make changes to her character as a free action which last until the end of the day, usable a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1; her uses per day are determined at the time in which she contemplates to recover her ideas and do not change if her Charisma modifier changes).

At level 4, she may expend a use of this ability to gain a number of temporary skill points less than or equal to her hand size, which she then adds to any one skill, subject to her usual level-dependent cap (her level + 3 for class skills, and half that for other skills). She is considered trained in any skill that receives a skill point in this way. The temporary skill points are lost if she uses this ability again, so only one skill at a time may ever benefit from these temporary skill points.

Starting at level 12, she may expend 2 uses of this ability (if she has that many) to change one feat she took into another feat that she had qualified for at the time. Such a change is only permitted if it respects all relevant prerequisites from prestige classes and other feats. Like all uses of the Fast Learner ability, the feat choice reverts to its initial state at the end of the day.

At level 20, the Creative becomes so adaptable that she can change any of her ideas at a moment's notice. She may expend 3 uses of her Fast Learner ability (if she has that many) to change one of her ideas known into a different idea of the same level, which cannot be one that she already knows. Neither the idea changed nor the replacement idea may be unique. Mark the difference by changing the name of the idea next to the corresponding card on her character sheet. This may even change the meaning of an idea in the Creative's hand that hasn't yet been used that round, dramatically improving her versatility in combat.

On My Mind: Sometimes an idea just gets stuck in the Creative's head, and she can conjure it to mind more quickly. Starting at 7th level, the Creative can select one of her ideas known at the beginning of the day. Once that day when she expresses it, the expressing time is one step shorter. A full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard becomes a move, a move becomes a swift, and a swift action becomes a free action. If this idea is changed via her 20th-level Fast Learner ability, the new idea must be eligible for On My Mind, and it has reduced expressing time instead until the end of the day. At level 16, she can use this ability twice per day, though both uses must be of the same idea.

Create Object: By level 11, the Creative has become adept at imagining objects so clearly that they become physical. Three times per day, she may create a single, nonliving, nonmagical object of volume up to 1 cubic foot per class level whose value does not exceed 100 gp. The object vanishes after 1 hour per class level, and can't be used as a material component or focus for a spell. The object cannot be so unique or exotic that it could not be found for sale in an average city.

Worldbuilding: The 19th-level Creative's imagination is so powerful that she can conjure an entire world into being. By spending 1 hour in concentration, she can create a demiplane, which forms at a random point in the Astral Plane. It takes 1 week for the demiplane to form, during which time it cannot be accessed. After that point, however, she can spend a standard action to travel instantly to any location on her world, along with up to 7 other willing creatures joining hands with her. While on her world, she can travel to any other point in that world using the same action, or travel back to the plane and location outside of her world where she had been most recently. The demiplane can also be accessed as normal with Plane Shift or a similar effect if the planar traveler knows its location or sees it in the Astral Plane.

The Creative's world is between 200 feet and 1 mile in each dimension (Creative's choice - once chosen at the time the world is created, this cannot be changed); past that point, it loops back on itself, so traveling west for half its length reaches the same point as traveling east. It has temperature and weather comparable to the Material Plane, anywhere between the coldest mountain and the hottest desert. It can have any terrain the Creative wishes, including structures up to 50 feet tall (though composed only of mundane, typical stone, dirt, wood, sand, and/or water or ice), as well as flora and fauna of the Creative's own design. Each creature made in this way must have the same statistics block and abilities as an existing animal of up to 5 HD, though it is considered to be an outsider native to the plane. The demiplane may support no more than 200 HD of life, and in a poorly-designed ecosystem without a balance of flora and fauna, that number will quickly dwindle, possibly to 0. Creatures native to the demiplane die within 1 minute if they are brought outside it.

Additionally, the Creative has special control over her world. She is aware of any intruders on her world, even if she is currently on another plane. She does not necessarily know their location, but she can see through the eyes of any native creature on her world by concentrating (she does not have any form of control over them, though they can theoretically be tamed and trained). In addition, while she is on her world, she can reshape the terrain or structures within 100 feet of her as a full-round action. Finally, while she is on her world, she may, as a standard action, lock her world, preventing all planar travel in or out. The lock can be undone as a standard action, and it automatically ends if the Creative dies. Until that point, it can only be bypassed by Wish, Miracle, or an equivalent effect.

The Creative can make a new world at most once per month. Once she begins the formation of a new demiplane, her existing demiplane, if any, contracts in on itself, physically compressing the landscape by 100 feet once per hour. Gravity intensifies immediately, rendering flight impossible and reducing land speed by half. Each time the plane compresses, an Earthquake (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) occurs (DC 25). When this would cause its length to decrease to 0 feet or below, the demiplane fully implodes to a point and vanishes. Creatures inside at that time must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) or be annihilated. Even creatures that are normally immune to Fortitude saves, such as undead, are affected. Creatures that succeed on the save take 5d6 bludgeoning damage and find themselves floating in the Astral Plane where the demiplane used to be.


CREATIVE VARIANT: ARCANE ARTISAN

Some Creatives are more down-to-earth, preferring to hone their magical and artistic talents rather than daydream and make imaginary friends.

Replaces: An Arcane Artisan does not gain an imaginary friend.

Benefit: Upon reaching level 2, the Arcane Artisan can spend 6 hours to craft a single magic item of up to 1000 gp in price. She need not pay for the base materials or have access to the requisite feat or spells to craft the item, though she still requires the Sanctify Relic feat if she wishes to craft a relic in this way. At levels 6, 10, 14, and 18, she may craft additional magic items of value not to exceed 4000, 9000, 16000, and 25000 gp, respectively. Only a single magic item can be obtained in this way per listed class level.


IDEA LIST

Ideas written in blue are expressed as free actions, cost 0 IP, and cannot be used in periods of focused thinking unless stated otherwise. All other ideas are assumed to be expressed as move actions for a cost of 1 IP and can be expressed in either mode unless stated otherwise. Ideas which can be augmented by spending additional IP to express them are listed with an A symbol. Versatile ideas are marked with a V symbol.

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Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:30:03 PM
THE PHILOSOPHER

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/42/b1/6d42b1fab90bf9fb2da98e6d5a9dcb74.jpg)

"Embrace your hypocrisy, as I always say. Yes, I always say that, my boy, but I never act on it."
- Yove the Philosopher, unprompted, to a complete stranger

Philosophers concern themselves only with the largest questions, of meaning and place in an unfathomable world, of life and matter and thoughts themselves. Such is the scope of their ideas that they can extend beyond their minds and manipulate their surroundings. Their dedication to making their arguments unassailable manifests as an incredibly focused and powerful school of thought magic.

Mechanically, the Philosopher is simpler than the other classes, though by no means less powerful. Players will appreciate this class if they like the idea of swapping out available magic by drawing cards, but don't want to deal with deck management. Philosophers are by far the most adept at utility effects, having more uses of focused thought per day, but they also have unique combat capabilities like more potent healing and special buffs, divinations, debuffs, and summons.

MAKING A PHILOSOPHER

Abilities: Philosophers’ idea DC’s are based on their Wisdom Modifier. As always, Dexterity and Constitution are vital defensive abilities.
Races: Long-lived races such as elves are well-suited to their long periods of study and contemplation, but races naturally gifted with Wisdom, like aasimars, will find that they have a particular knack for the philosopher's way of thinking.
Alignment: Any
Starting Gold: As Wizard
Starting Age: As Wizard
   
Class Skills
The Philosopher’s class skills are Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Perform (Oratory), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + int) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + int

Table: The PhilosopherHD: d6


Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Base
Attack
Bonus
+0
+1
+1
+2
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+7/+2
+8/+3
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5

Fort
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Ref
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Will
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12


Special                                 
Lore
Practical Reason
Rebuttal
Bonus Feat
Personal Philosophy
Active Mind
Pure Reason
Bonus Feat
Forceful Rebuttal
Personal Philosophy
Judgment
Seminal Work
Bonus Feat
Personal Philosophy
Insightful Rebuttal
Philosopher's Stone

Hand
Size
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
6
6
6
6
7
7
7
7

Aug.
Limit
0
0
0
0
1
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
Deck Composition
 
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
55
46
37
362
363
364
2552
2553
2554
14552
14553
14554
034552
034553
034554
0234552
0234553
0234554
0234555
0234556

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Philosophers are not proficient with any weapons, armor, or shields.

Ideas: A Philosopher's knowledge is so extensive that she does not need to learn new ideas at each level. Rather, all ideas on her class list are considered known to her, so long as her deck composition contains at least one idea of its level (since all ideas on her list with the [Versatile] tag are known to her, she can swap between any of them as detailed in the Thought Magic description under Types of Ideas). She is still limited to using only combinations of ideas that fulfill her deck composition requirements, shown by level in the table above, with no more that 2 copies of any given idea in use at a time. She may fill higher-level slots in her deck composition with lower-level ideas if she chooses. The DC for her ideas is 10 + the idea's level + her Wisdom modifier.

Lore: All philosophers are well-read, and those that can be found in adventuring parties are typically well-traveled, too. This gives them a wide array of knowledge that they've picked up over time and can tap into should the need arise. Treat this as the Bardic Knowledge class feature, except that the Philosopher applies her Wisdom modifier to the check rather than her Intelligence modifier.

In addition, this ability grants them a bonus on all Knowledge checks equal to their Wisdom modifier or their class level, whichever is lower.

Practical Reason: Philosophers seek a breadth of experiences and ideas, and refuse to constrain their usefulness to just combat. At level 2, the Philosopher gains 2 additional daily uses of focused thinking. Unlike normal thought magic uses, these bonus uses cannot be spent on fluid thinking.

Rebuttal: Starting at 3rd level, the Philosopher can use the magical essence of argumentation itself to debate her enemies' spells into nonexistence. Whenever the Philosopher is aware of an enemy using a spell or spell-like ability within 60 feet while she is in a period of fluid thinking, she may spend an immediate action and discard some number of random ideas from her hand (she shuffles her hand without looking at it, then discards a number of cards of her choice from the top of the stack). If the level of the effect is at most twice the number of ideas discarded, it is negated, as though it had been counterspelled. For instance, discarding 2 ideas would be sufficient to counter Solid Fog, but not Mind Fog.

If the level of the spell or spell-like effect is higher than 1/2 their thinker level (rounded up), the Philosopher's rebuttal attempt fails automatically. Thus, at level 3 when this ability is first obtained, the Philosopher can rebut effects of level 2 or lower. Before deciding whether to rebut an effect, the Philosopher may make a Spellcraft check to identify the effect, letting her know how many ideas will need to be deployed in her argument and whether she can successfully rebut it.

At level 11, the Philosopher's arguments become so forceful that they physically impact against their targets. Whenever she successfully rebuts an opponent's spell or spell-like ability, that opponent takes 1d6 force damage per level of the effect countered.

At level 19, the arguments are so brilliant that they inspire even the Philosopher as she says them. She gains +3 IP during the turn after she executes a successful rebuttal.

Bonus Feat: The Philosopher gains a bonus feat at level 4 and every 6 levels afterward. She may choose any [Thought] feat or the [General] feat Magical Intuition (both described below).

Personal Philosophy: By level 6, the Philosopher moves beyond an understanding of how other minds before her described the world, creating her own notions of reality different from her fellow Philosophers. At this level, and every 6 levels afterward, she may choose an idea on another class' idea list and add it to her own. This idea may be of any level, even one that she cannot currently express. However, she may not choose any idea whose name contains the name of another thinker class, such as Creative Process or Strategist's Grenade.

Active Mind: The Philosopher's mind is always pondering and reflecting, making it unusually difficult to slow or distract her thinking. At level 7, this grants the Philosopher immunity to external effects that inflict Daze, Fascinate, or Sleep. She is not immune if she inflicts these conditions on herself, and she still requires a night's rest to express ideas the next day.

Pure Reason: The 8th-level Philosopher is a master of abstract thought, and her ideas are difficult to dismiss. Her thinker level is treated as being 4 levels higher for the purpose of dispel attempts made against her ideas and bypassing spell resistance. Her thinker level remains unchanged for all other purposes.

Judgment: By level 14, the Philosopher has become assured and rigid in her way of thinking, and becomes adept at countering other viewpoints. Her harmful ideas have +1 DC against creatures whose alignments differ from hers by at least 2 steps. Thus, for example, a NG Philosopher would have +1 DC against foes that are CN, CE, NE, LE, or LN.

Seminal Work: At level 15, the Philosopher creates her life's work, the theory for which she will be known to future scholars; this takes the form of a slight embellishment on an idea that countless other Philosophers before her have expressed. She chooses an idea on her class list of level no lower than 2 and no higher than 5 which cannot have been gained from her Personal Philosophy class feature. Once chosen, this idea cannot be changed. For the purposes of composing her deck, she treats that idea as being one level lower than it would be normally. For instance, if she chooses Chilling Thought, she would treat it as a level 1 idea when building her deck, but it would still have the DC of her level 2 ideas when she expresses it.

Philosopher's Stone: At 20th level, the Philosopher deduces the greatest secret known to her class: the method for the creation of a Philosopher's Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#philosophersStone). She may make use of the stone's properties despite not being an arcane spellcaster, though she still needs to procure a cure potion should she wish to make an oil of life. Making the object requires only a small stone to serve as its base, components worth a mere 100 gp, and a brief, 1-hour ritual performed at the apex of the full moon (for this reason, only one stone may be created each month).

As with all Philosophers before her, she realizes that if the simplicity of the stone's enchantment were revealed, it would upend all of society, so she forbids herself from sharing the secret or bringing a stone into existence while another of her created stones' magic is unspent. So strong is her conviction that no effect, mundane or magical, can extract this knowledge from her in any way. It is due to the unimpeachable wisdom of each generation of great Philosophers that the secret has been kept to this day.


PHILOSOPHER VARIANT: WARRIOR SCHOLAR

Not all philosophers are reclusive bookworms. Some apply their extensive knowledge to the battlefield, supplementing their magic with the skill and training of a soldier.

Replaces: A Warrior Scholar does not gain the Rebuttal ability (she gains no class features at levels 3, 11, and 19).

Benefit: The Warrior Scholar has d8 HD and a Cleric BAB (3/4 level). At level 1, she gains proficiency with all simple weapons, with 3 martial weapons of her choice, and with light and medium armor and shields. In addition, whenever this class would grant her a Thought Magic bonus feat, she may choose a Fighter bonus feat instead.


IDEA LIST

Ideas written in blue are expressed as free actions, cost 0 IP, and cannot be used in periods of focused thinking unless stated otherwise. All other ideas are assumed to be expressed as move actions for a cost of 1 IP and can be expressed in either mode unless stated otherwise. Ideas which can be augmented by spending additional IP to express them are listed with an A symbol. Versatile ideas are marked with a V symbol.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
THE STRATEGIST

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/13/9c/1b139c903571fd9117fea48af11d6f7e.jpg)

"Captain, if the enemy underestimates our position as much as you, then I daresay we'll have the camp by dinner!"
-Beltham the Brain, a Strategist, to the captain of the platoon he'd been sent to aid

Wizards may be scholarly, Warblades may be cunning with a blade, but nobody can match the Strategist when it comes to clever warfare. A Strategist's mind cycles quickly without end through ideas of how to control the battlefield and everyone on it. She may be off to the side, out of harm's way, or in the thick of the battle, but regardless of where she is, regardless of who wins and who surrenders, combat that involves a Strategist is forced to play by her rules.

The Strategist makes ample use of battlefield control ideas with areas of effect, as well as teleportation effects to move allies and enemies into more advantageous positions. The way she interacts with her deck is also very different from the Creative and Philosopher: none of her abilities shuffle the deck, and she has many options to find out precisely where cards are and manipulate their order. Her strategy often relies on planning ahead, making sure that her next few turns are more optimal than they would be if left to random chance.

MAKING A STRATEGIST

Abilities: Strategists’ idea DC’s are based on their Intelligence Modifier. As always, Dexterity and Constitution are vital defensive abilities.
Races: Strategists are well suited to open warfare or races that can socialize well enough to form a functional squadron. This includes organized and clever races like elves and humans, as well as creatures adept at fighting en masse like kobolds or halflings.
Alignment: Any
Starting Gold: As Wizard
Starting Age: As Wizard
   
Class Skills
The Strategist’s class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + int) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + int

Table: The StrategistHD: d6


Level
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Base
Attack
Bonus
+0
+1
+2
+3
+3
+4
+5
+6/+1
+6/+1
+7/+2
+8/+3
+9/+4
+9/+4
+10/+5
+11/+6/+1
+12/+7/+2
+12/+7/+2
+13/+8/+3
+14/+9/+4
+15/+10/+5

Fort
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12

Ref
Save
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1
+2
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+6

Will
Save
+2
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9
+9
+10
+10
+11
+11
+12


Special                                 
Tried and True
Battle-Ready
Know Thine Enemy
Selective Idea 1/thought
Tried and True
Idea of Opportunity 1/thought
Superior Tactics
Element of Surprise
Tried and True
Selective Idea 2/thought
Up My Sleeve
Idea of Opportunity 2/thought
Tried and True
Saw it Coming
Battlefield Control
Selective Idea (unlimited)

Hand
Size
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
6
6
6
6
7
7
7
7

Aug.
Limit
0
0
0
0
1
1
1
1
2
2
2
2
3
3
3
3
4
4
4
4
Deck Composition
 
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
55
46
37
362
363
364
2552
2553
2554
14552
14553
14554
034552
034553
034554
0234552
0234553
0234554
0234555
0234556
Ideas Known
 
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
85
86
87
872
873
884
8852
8863
8864
88652
88763
88764
887652
888763
888764
8887652
8888763
8888764
8888765
8888876


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Strategists are proficient with simple weapons, with the longsword, warhammer, longbow, and net, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Ideas: The Strategist begins play knowing 6 0th-level ideas and 3 1st-level ideas. At every subsequent level, the Strategist learns one or more new ideas as given in the Ideas Known section of the table above, and can use between 0 and 2 of each to create the deck composition that corresponds to her level (also given above). She may choose lower-level ideas whenever she would be allowed higher-level ones, both when learning new ideas known and when building her deck. At 2nd level and every level afterward, she may exchange one idea known for another idea of her choice of that level or lower. The DC for her ideas is 10 + the idea's level + her Intelligence modifier.

Tried and True: While the Strategist generally likes to adapt to the circumstances of each battle, some techniques work too well not to keep up her sleeves for every occasion. At 1st level and every 5 levels afterward, she selects a non-unique idea on her list of ideas known (which may be one that she already chose for this feature). The idea chosen cannot be one that grants IP. Once per period of fluid thought per time chosen, she may treat an idea in her hand of equal or greater level as that idea.

Battle-Ready: The 2nd-level Strategist understands the importance of attacking first. Whenever the Strategist rolls initiative, she can reroll and take the better of the two rolls.

Know Thine Enemy: At 3rd level, the Strategist gains a +2 bonus to Knowledge checks made to identify enemy monsters and Spellcraft checks made to identify enemy spells and spell-like effects.

Selective Idea: At level 4, the Strategist learns how to wield her dangerous area-of-effect ideas against her enemies without putting her allies in harm's way. Once per period of fluid thought, she can express an idea that affects an area as a Selective Idea, which does not harm the Strategist's allies (including the Strategist herself). Allies in the effect are not impeded in any way; they do not take damage, they do not need to save against harmful effects, and their movement and visibility are unaffected. The Strategist gains an additional use of this ability per fluid thought at level 12, and at level 20, she may make any of her ideas selective without limit.

Idea of Opportunity: The 7th-level Strategist is cunning enough to take advantage of an enemy's misstep and unleash a barrage of thought magic when they are least prepared for it. Once per period of fluid thought, as an attack of opportunity, she can express a harmful idea from her hand, as long as a provoking enemy within 15 feet is one of the targets of the idea or within its area of effect. She may pay any amount of IP to augment it (not to exceed her augment limit, even if the expressed idea is normally unconstrained by this limit, like Mindcannon). On subsequent turns, she must spend IP equal to the amount that she spent. Until she has paid for the entire IP cost of her attack of opportunity, she may not express any other ideas with IP costs of 1 or higher, or augment any ideas.

At level 15, her number of uses of this ability per period of fluid thought increases to 2. Even if she has the Combat Reflexes feat, she cannot use this ability multiple times between two of her consecutive turns. She must pay back the IP spent on the first idea before she can express another one, whether or not the second idea is an Idea of Opportunity.

Superior Tactics: By level 8, the Strategist is a master tactician, choreographing her allies' positions to devastating effect. All allies within 60 feet of the Strategist (including the Strategist herself) gain an additional +2 to melee attack rolls when flanking (for a total of +4). In addition, enemies within this range gain no bonuses from flanking (though flanked allies may still be vulnerable to Sneak Attacks).

Element of Surprise: The 10th-level Strategist knows how best to seize the advantage of striking first. Whenever she is able to act in the surprise round, she may take any actions that would be available to her in a normal round (normally, a character acting in a surprise round is restricted to a single move or standard action).

Up My Sleeve: At level 14, the Strategist learns to keep an idea hidden away and wait for the perfect moment. She may remove one idea from her deck. At any time during a period of fluid thinking, she may add that idea to her hand. This is only usable once during that period of thought, after which the idea is discarded like the rest of the cards she plays or leaves in her hand at the end of her turn. She may choose a new idea to hide away immediately after forming her deck composition for the day, or after a period of fluid thinking ends. She cannot have more than one idea hidden away at any given time.

Saw it Coming: By level 18, the Strategist knows every trick in the book; nothing surprises her anymore. She always acts during the surprise round, rolling initiative as normal, even if only the enemy side has the surprise advantage. This does not necessarily guarantee that she will be able to accomplish anything; for instance, if someone sneaks up on her while she is sleeping, if she wins initiative before the attack and does not manage to awaken, she will spend that round continuing to sleep. However, if the enemy wins initiative and attacks her, then assuming she survives, she would wake up and be able to counterattack within that surprise round.

Battlefield Control: The level-19 Strategist reaches the pinnacle of battlefield control by literally controlling the battlefield. Once per 3 days, she can warp all her surroundings within a 1000-foot radius centered within Medium range. Within an urban environment, this supernatural effect acts as the spell Animate City (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/races-of-destiny--81/animate-city--3049/index.html), while in nature, it acts as Shadow Landscape (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/dndtools/spells/spell-compendium--86/shadow-landscape--4145/) (though without being able to designate shadow guardians). If the latter effect takes place, roll immediately to change the weather. Either way, the duration of the effect is 10 minutes per class level. These changes to the surrounding area do not affect the Strategist or her allies, as though the land itself were on her side. Entangling plants, rampaging buildings, and harsh storms seem to deliberately avoid allied creatures and focus their wrath on enemies. Unforgiving slopes and quicksand, likewise, do not impose any movement penalties on the Strategist or her allies. The DC of this ability, where applicable, is 19 + the Strategist's Intelligence modifier.


STRATEGIST VARIANT: SPYMASTER

Though tactics during combat are crucial, some Strategists know that, with the right information, a battle can be over before it begins. These Strategists prioritize intelligence gathering at the expense of some of their reliability on the battlefield

Replaces: A Spymaster does not gain Tried and True at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16. Her BAB is also reduced from Cleric (3/4 level) to Wizard (1/2 level), and she loses proficiency with medium armor.

Benefit: At level 1, the Spymaster gains the service of an informant, a mindless, tiny-sized shadowy creature under her command. Informants are semi-ethereal, as though they are constantly under the effect of the spell Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm). This enables them to hide easily and walk through walls, though this risks damaging them. An informant has 2 HP per class level, 12 AC (including its size modifier), a flight speed of 20 feet (perfect), and uses the Spymaster's ranks in Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently (each with a +0 bonus from its own ability scores). It can observe and speak any language the Spymaster knows, but cannot take non-movement actions, hold or move objects, or even open doors. If one or more of her informants are destroyed, the Spymaster can create new ones when she next prepares her ideas for the day. They have no memory of what the destroyed informants saw or heard.

At level 6, the Spymaster gains a second informant, and she gains the ability to communicate mentally with her informants out to a range of 1 mile.

At level 11, the Spymaster gains a third informant. She may now communicate mentally with her informants at any distance, as long as they are on the same plane. She may also concentrate at any time to see and hear directly what one of her informants sees and hears. In this state, she may make use of any other senses she has; a dwarven Spymaster could use their darkvision to see through an informant's dark surroundings, for instance. Even senses gained through spell effects such as True Seeing can be used through the informants. As long as she is concentrating on an informant's senses, she may take no other actions.

At level 16, the Spymaster gains a fourth informant. Her informants can now become fully ethereal at will. Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, scentless, and can float effortlessly through physical barriers.


IDEA LIST

Ideas written in blue are expressed as free actions, cost 0 IP, and cannot be used in periods of focused thinking unless stated otherwise. All other ideas are assumed to be expressed as move actions for a cost of 1 IP and can be expressed in either mode unless stated otherwise. Ideas which can be augmented by spending additional IP to express them are listed with an A symbol. Versatile ideas are marked with a V symbol.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:30:48 PM
NEW FEATS

GENERAL FEATS

These feats can be taken by characters without levels in a thinker class.

Feat Name                               Prerequisites                                          Description                                                                                                             
Flexible LearnerOnce per day, you can change one of your other feats for the day.
Magical IntuitionYou can apply your Wisdom modifier to Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks.

THOUGHT FEATS

These feats can only be taken by characters with at least one level in a thinker class. Unless stated otherwise, they apply only during periods of fluid thought.

Feat Name                               Prerequisites                                          Description                                                                                                             
AfterthoughtThinker level 12Ideas of level 1 or lower can be expressed as swift actions.
Azure InsightCon 13You can convert IP to essentia and draw IP from your crown chakra.
Creative DefenseDiscard an idea to gain a bonus to AC.
Extra IdeasAble to learn ideasLearn 2 new ideas from your class list.
Extra InspiredCreative level 3Gain additional uses per day of your Inspired ability.
Flow of BattleBAB +3Express an idea as part of a full attack, Flurry of Blows, or Cleave bonus attack.
ForesightYou can spend IP on one turn to gain that much IP next turn.
Fresh IdeasThinker level 4Gain +1 IP whenever your deck is shuffled.
Gain Reserve AbilityYou learn a reserve feat, normally only available to spellcasters.
Heighten IdeaIdeas prepared in higher-level slots count as that level.
Insightful AttackExpend IP to increase your attack roll.
JokerThinker level 4Add an idea to your deck that, when drawn, can act as any low-level idea you know.
Lucky IdeaExpend a luck reroll to discard your hand and draw a new one.
Meditative HealingHeal yourself whenever you discard ideas.
Meta-analysisYou can save [Meta] ideas for later use.
MnemonicTwice per day, place a retired idea in your hand.
Narrow FocusThinker level 8Remove up to one idea of each level from your deck composition.
Off the Top of My HeadAt the start of each day, choose which idea will be on top of your deck.
OverthinkWhenever you play [Hand Size - 1] blue ideas in a single turn, draw a card.
Practiced ThinkerSpellcraft 4 ranksYour thinker level increases by +4 (not to exceed your HD).
Psionic SynergyThinker level 2, manifester level 1Use IP in place of PP for your psionic powers.
Steady MindThinker level 4+1 IP per turn. You lose this benefit next turn if you draw, discard, or retire an idea.
Thought on the RunYou can move as a swift action if you spend your move actions expressing ideas.
Thoughtful FriendImaginary Friend class featureWhen your imaginary friend uses an action to aid you, you can draw an extra idea.
Trump CardThinker level 8The last idea in your hand is especially powerful.
Two of a KindThinker level 4Express two identical ideas as a single action.
Visual ThinkerAll copies of an idea in your deck are face-up.


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:31:39 PM
IDEA DESCRIPTIONS

Ideas written in blue cannot be used in periods of focused thinking unless stated otherwise.

0th-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)

1st-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:32:37 PM
2nd-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 04, 2018, 07:41:06 PM
3rd-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 08, 2018, 08:29:02 PM
4th-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 09, 2018, 06:42:06 AM
5th-Level Ideas
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on November 10, 2018, 09:18:02 AM
6th-Level Ideas
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Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on June 13, 2020, 04:49:09 PM
It's done! Finally, it's all done!

I've been working on this quietly in the background for a while now, and have overhauled the class features and feats, as well as added descriptions of all the ideas. You don't have to read all of it (honestly, that would be asking a lot), but at least read some of the shortened idea lists in the spoilers at the end of the classes to get a feel for how it all works. I'd love to get as much feedback as possible.

There's a changelog at the bottom of the first post, for those who've read this before and want to skip to what's different.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: Garryl on June 13, 2020, 08:00:54 PM
Welcome back, TheGeometer! I remember you from this board's 'brewing heyday. Nice to see you around again, and with a big thing like this, to boot!

First off, some analysis of the deck building mechanic. That's the core concept of this project and the big draw, so let's dive into it first.

I can already tell that it's going to be a pain to keep track of at higher levels if you don't use proxy cards. It's easy if everything is a 4-of or a mix of 4-ofs (rank) and 2-ofs (rank + color), but mixing odd numbers around could make it difficult to intuitively keep track of which playing card represents which idea, something very important for speed of play and ease of analysis (ie: figuring out what you can actually do in a turn). Assigning each separate idea to a different card rank is only guaranteed to work up until level 7, at which point you have 15 ideas known, and is guaranteed to fail at level 15, which requires at least 14 different ideas to fill out the deck.

Typically with deck-building card games, a smaller deck is better than a larger one. D&D's closest equivalent to a card-based class, the crusader, was designed with that in mind; whenever its maneuvers readied (deck size) increases, its maneuvers granted (starting hand size) increases equally, leaving the same number of ungranted maneuvers left in the deck, so your odds of getting whichever maneuver you actually want always stay the same or increase, while also keeping a fixed rate of cycling through your deck. The progression used in these classes doesn't respect that concept, so there are several levels where your reliability and consistency actually decrease. For example, at level 1 (3 draws), a deck of 4x idea that does something you want in combat (ex: Corrosive Streak) and 2x Resolve has a 100% chance of drawing at least one combat actions and a 60% chance of drawing 2 combat actions and 1 Resolve for the extra IP to use both in one round (which also guarantees the same draw in the following round). Increasing to level 2 reduces those odds by forcing you to add 2 more cards into your deck. Upping this to 6x idea that does a combat action and 2x Resolve lowers the odds of drawing 2 combat actions and 1 Resolve to 54% while also removing the guarantee that you'll get it on the second draw if you got it on the first. (For reference, a 5-3 split gives the exact same 54% chance of a double idea turn, but gives a 2% chance of failing to draw any combat action ideas.) This happens again at 3rd level. The issue is exacerbated at low levels, both because you're diluting your card pool with equal- or lower-value cards and because you're reducing the control that a large hand size relative to your deck size gives you.

Enlarging your deck can be beneficial under the right circumstances. Roguelike drafting deck builders like Slay The Spire do this by starting your deck with mediocre cards and letting you add better cards to dilute them. The consistency of your deck drops because the inconsistent parts are stronger. You get that effect at higher levels when you start adding higher-level idea cards to your deck. It just doesn't work for the first few levels because you've already selected the strongest combination of 1st-level ideas for your first 6 cards, so anything you add to that is by definition weaker. It also makes the leveling progression feel a bit odd. At higher levels, you add more high-level ideas to your deck than you do low-level ones, so you're still improving the overall card quality and deck power, but since you continue to add more of the weakest ideas, it gives the impression of self-sabotage. Those drafting deck builders typically also periodically allow you to remove some of the weakest cards from your deck to improve consistency.

Also, as a side-note, if you select two unique-tagged ideas as your only ideas for a level (at the levels when you only know 2 ideas of the new idea level), it is literally impossible to build your idea deck. I don't think there are any classes that get 2 unique ideas at the same level, but that might change if you ever expand the system, so it would be a good idea to address it, regardless.

I would suggest looking into altering the deck building progression. The first few levels need adjustment to avoid the unintentional decrease in combat power and consistency. The higher levels don't technically need adjustment, but the bookkeeping may become too difficult for quick play and the continued growth of low-level ideas in the deck feels bad. Some suggestions off the top of my head (some of which are mutually exclusive):
- Replace the current deck limit with a number of different ideas (up to 13) that are allowed to be in your deck. As your level increases, you can select more of the higher-level ideas you know to be in your deck, and possibly also fewer of the low-level ideas. You could possibly also adjust the minimum and maximum number of copies of any idea by level, with each new character level increasing the maximum number of copies for your highest-level.
- Create some 0-level ideas and start at level 1 with a deck mostly composed of 0-level ideas.
- Balloon the deck size to much larger earlier on using more low-level ideas. As levels increase, increase the minimum deck size more slowly, but make room for higher-level idea slots by reducing the minimum number of lower-level ideas.

I'll try to take a look at the classes and ideas later on. I've only done a little skimming so far, so I don't quite have a good sense of the abilities in play and how they mesh yet. I'm a little worried about most everything being usable as a move action, which makes it very easy to combine with other caster classes, possibly too easy. It's something to keep an eye on.

Note: Formula for calculating card draws easily with AnyDice from here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/63174/is-it-possible-to-model-this-die-with-anydice).
https://anydice.com/program/1c30d - 3 Resolves, 7 do-a-thing ideas
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: TheGeometer on June 13, 2020, 08:50:04 PM
Welcome back, TheGeometer! I remember you from this board's 'brewing heyday. Nice to see you around again, and with a big thing like this, to boot!

Hey Garryl, thanks so much for all the input so quick! :) Sorry that I changed the name of Resolve to Insight just after I posted it (I'd been meaning to make those +IP ideas simpler for a while, but forgot to do it until after it was up). I unwittingly made your excellent analysis more confusing. Anyway, I'll go over your main points.

Assigning each separate idea to a different card rank is only guaranteed to work up until level 7, at which point you have 15 ideas known, and is guaranteed to fail at level 15, which requires at least 14 different ideas to fill out the deck.

Yeah, I was prepared to have 2 different decks and a lot of bookkeeping, but some of your suggestions (which I'll get to in a sec) seem way better, and now you've got me thinking about other ways to do things.

Also, as a side-note, if you select two unique-tagged ideas as your only ideas for a level (at the levels when you only know 2 ideas of the new idea level), it is literally impossible to build your idea deck. I don't think there are any classes that get 2 unique ideas at the same level, but that might change if you ever expand the system, so it would be a good idea to address it, regardless.

Gonna address this early so I can address your main comment all at once. Good point, easy fix - "You cannot choose ideas known such that you would be unable to build a deck composition (such as by picking too many [Unique] cards)". Will add.

It just doesn't work for the first few levels because you've already selected the strongest combination of 1st-level ideas for your first 6 cards, so anything you add to that is by definition weaker. It also makes the leveling progression feel a bit odd. At higher levels, you add more high-level ideas to your deck than you do low-level ones, so you're still improving the overall card quality and deck power, but since you continue to add more of the weakest ideas, it gives the impression of self-sabotage. Those drafting deck builders typically also periodically allow you to remove some of the weakest cards from your deck to improve consistency.

I would suggest looking into altering the deck building progression. The first few levels need adjustment to avoid the unintentional decrease in combat power and consistency. The higher levels don't technically need adjustment, but the bookkeeping may become too difficult for quick play and the continued growth of low-level ideas in the deck feels bad. Some suggestions off the top of my head (some of which are mutually exclusive):
- Replace the current deck limit with a number of different ideas (up to 13) that are allowed to be in your deck. As your level increases, you can select more of the higher-level ideas you know to be in your deck, and possibly also fewer of the low-level ideas. You could possibly also adjust the minimum and maximum number of copies of any idea by level, with each new character level increasing the maximum number of copies for your highest-level.
- Create some 0-level ideas and start at level 1 with a deck mostly composed of 0-level ideas.
- Balloon the deck size to much larger earlier on using more low-level ideas. As levels increase, increase the minimum deck size more slowly, but make room for higher-level idea slots by reducing the minimum number of lower-level ideas.

Okay, a ton of fantastic ideas here. First of all, limiting the deck to 13 ideas and a smaller scale is an elegant fix. However, it clashes with the other thing you suggested that I really want to do - filling the deck with a bunch of 0th-level ideas that you gradually replace as you level. I'll think about this some more and see if I can come up with a way to solve both the progression issues and the bookkeeping issues in one fell swoop.

I should note that (with the exception of levels 1-3, which, yeah, thanks for catching that), every level is an unambiguous improvement over the previous, since the ratio [number of level-X spells] / [number of level-(X-1) spells] never decreases at any level or for any value of X. Every time the deck adds a level-1 idea, it always adds at least one idea of every level above that. So I definitely tried to keep that in mind at least when designing the progression. As you said, though, it doesn't feel like a perfect solution.

I'll try to take a look at the classes and ideas later on. I've only done a little skimming so far, so I don't quite have a good sense of the abilities in play and how they mesh yet. I'm a little worried about most everything being usable as a move action, which makes it very easy to combine with other caster classes, possibly too easy. It's something to keep an eye on.

The caster thing is a little worrisome, true, but I think it's balanced by the fact that you're losing caster levels, no? (Also yeah, I wanted this system to have prestige class options so I let it count as a casting class, but if I specify that it can't be used for dual-progression PrC's, then that loophole is solved at least). Are you worried about 1-level dips? Because as far as I can tell, a Wizard 5 / Strategist 5, for instance, doesn't seem more powerful than a Wizard 10 or a Strategist 10.

Anyway, thanks again! I'll be brainstorming and looking forward to anything else you find.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: Nanshork on June 13, 2020, 10:00:37 PM
It's been two years, I don't remember what this looked like before.   :P

I just wrote up a review of an entire game system, I'll give this a look-see at a later date when I have some motivation again but I am definitely going to look it over.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: Garryl on June 13, 2020, 11:37:59 PM
Still reading things, but before I forget, SLAs take the same amount of time as the spell they mimic unless otherwise specified. Strategist's Ward Battlefield incorrectly refutes that. Also, Opening Play still a few refers to Not Playing With A Full Deck, which doesn't exist any more.

Okay, a ton of fantastic ideas here. First of all, limiting the deck to 13 ideas and a smaller scale is an elegant fix. However, it clashes with the other thing you suggested that I really want to do - filling the deck with a bunch of 0th-level ideas that you gradually replace as you level. I'll think about this some more and see if I can come up with a way to solve both the progression issues and the bookkeeping issues in one fell swoop.

I did say they were mutually exclusive.

Quote
The caster thing is a little worrisome, true, but I think it's balanced by the fact that you're losing caster levels, no? (Also yeah, I wanted this system to have prestige class options so I let it count as a casting class, but if I specify that it can't be used for dual-progression PrC's, then that loophole is solved at least). Are you worried about 1-level dips? Because as far as I can tell, a Wizard 5 / Strategist 5, for instance, doesn't seem more powerful than a Wizard 10 or a Strategist 10.

Anyway, thanks again! I'll be brainstorming and looking forward to anything else you find.

It's not casters specifically. Martial adepts are often standard action-focused and multiclass really well. Gestalt is an optional method of character creation for some campaigns worth at least thinking about. Sometimes you have a magic item or a racial ability that's normally just a little subpar but now stacks on top of your casting system. Sometimes it's just a matter of leveraging an action that's balanced as low value a little too well and getting a little too much out of a dorje of Hustle. Nothing that's necessarily game breaking or OP, but something to keep an eye to make sure that it stays that way.

If you wanted to nip any concerns about this in the bud and just not have to worry about it, you could make expressing ideas like performing a full attack, where it's a standard action to express one idea, a full-round action to express two of them, and you can decide which action you're spending after you've expressed the first and are choosing whether or not to express a second.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: TheGeometer on June 14, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
Still reading things, but before I forget, SLAs take the same amount of time as the spell they mimic unless otherwise specified. Strategist's Ward Battlefield incorrectly refutes that.

Fixed now, thanks.

Opening Play still a few refers to Not Playing With A Full Deck, which doesn't exist any more.

Looking at it again, I decided to just take out Opening Play. A 1st-level idea that's still that useful at high levels doesn't mesh well with the rest of the system.

If you wanted to nip any concerns about this in the bud and just not have to worry about it, you could make expressing ideas like performing a full attack, where it's a standard action to express one idea, a full-round action to express two of them, and you can decide which action you're spending after you've expressed the first and are choosing whether or not to express a second.

Hmm, I see what you're saying. Not gonna lie, my main barrier to implementing this is having to go back and fix every mention of "move action" in dozens of class features and over 100 ideas. :p

Anyway, I've come up with a new deck composition progression that I think fixes a lot of the problems we were talking about yesterday:

Deck Composition
 
Level
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
145
236
337
4263
5264
6265
71553
81554
91555
1004553
1104554
1204555
13034553
14034554
15034555
160234553
170234554
180234555
190234555
200234556

Not only does this deck cut off at 25 total cards rather than 60, which is just plain easier to manage, but it also increases at a rate as close to linear as is possible. I'm very happy with how it balances early levels and how it scales with hand size (the deck always takes about 3 turns before it refreshes, which is a good number; often enough that cycling through the deck is meaningful, without the same combinations of cards appearing over and over). Lower level ideas also now begin to leave the deck, which might be good for progression, but also might not be balanced. A more steady option is this one:

Deck Composition
 
Level
0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
154
255
356
4462
5463
6464
73642
83643
93644
1026442
1126443
1226444
13164442
14164443
15164444
160644442
170644443
180644444
190644445
200644446

This one also grows smoothly, by 1 every level in fact, and it doesn't involve removing anything from the deck other than 0th-level ideas, which seems convenient. I'm not sure whether I want the highest-level idea to start at 2 per deck or 3. Keeping in mind that there are ~3 hands in every deck, maybe 2 in the whole deck would be better - I don't want the character shooting off their most powerful effect every turn, just as a caster who reaches a new spell level won't be able to use their most powerful spell all the time. 2/3 of the time on average seems closer to that.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (COMPLETE!)
Post by: Garryl on June 20, 2020, 01:54:36 PM
Decks

I'm slightly inclined towards the first of those two. The numbers look more visually pleasing, whereas the all 4s except 6 1sts and 6 6ths at max level part of the second strikes me as a little jarring.

Keeping in mind that there are ~3 hands in every deck, maybe 2 in the whole deck would be better - I don't want the character shooting off their most powerful effect every turn, just as a caster who reaches a new spell level won't be able to use their most powerful spell all the time. 2/3 of the time on average seems closer to that.

On that note, I'd like to touch on the maximum copies of any given card. With the reduced deck size, you'll probably want to drop it down to 2 or 3 copies maximum. This is both to keep variance and to encourage/enforce the use of multiple ideas at any given level.

Gwent is an interesting game to compare with this system in regards to deckbuilding. It has 25-card decks with a mix of bronze (2-of, weaker) and gold (1-of, stronger) cards. Between the core mechanics and card draw/deck thinning effects, you can expect to go through 75-90% of your deck in each match. Its previous iteration allowed for 3 of each bronze card and had a third level (silver, 1-of) in between bronze and gold, with fixed numbers of each category allowed in your 25-card deck instead of a total overall value of cards. It's got a certain similarity to your system with its fixed number of cards of specific levels.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (WIP again)
Post by: TheGeometer on June 23, 2020, 06:15:33 PM
Thank you for all your suggestions! I made a few big changes, mainly an overhaul of the deck composition progression (currently updated only for the Creative). Ideas are now limited to at most 2 copies, keyed to black suits or red suits.

I've got a lot of work ahead of me updating the ideas and feats to balance them around the new changes. And also just to balance them, period; I had a friend look at the idea descriptions and a ton of them are way more powerful than they should be. That's my bad.

For now, "(COMPLETE!)" has been removed from the title. That was fun while it lasted. :p
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (WIP again)
Post by: Nanshork on June 24, 2020, 11:16:35 AM
You two done overhauling everything so I can start my review?  :P
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (WIP again)
Post by: TheGeometer on June 25, 2020, 10:37:24 AM
You two done overhauling everything so I can start my review?  :P

Haha, as of this moment I am, or close enough. The mechanics, classes, and feats are all updated now. The idea descriptions aren't as finalized, but the damaging ones at least are well-balanced as far as I can tell. I also added a second changelog since this became a WIP again, if that helps.

Please, review to your heart's content! Any feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (WIP again)
Post by: Garryl on June 26, 2020, 04:20:58 AM
Thought Magic

I'm making a proper pass through the core mechanics now (as opposed to the quick skim from before).

Quote
Ideas as Cards

Nothing much to say here. I don't expect all that much more will change here (aside from clarifications) unless the core mechanics need another overhaul.

Quote
Expressing Ideas

There's a timing mismatch for IP here. You get a new hand of cards at the end of your turn (which matches the timing of when immediate actions start applying to the following turn's action economy), but you get your 1 IP at the beginning of your turn. Does that mean that if you want to express any immediate action ideas, you need to generate IP for them in your previous turn and carry it over, despite the fact that you don't know what ideas you'll have, if any?

You may wish to clarify that IP from previous turns doesn't carry over into following turns. It sounds like that's the intent by "starts each turn with 1 IP", but it would be nice to have it explicitly stated so you don't have to parse the implications of that sentence to find out.

Can thinking classes be progressed by arcane- and divine-spellcasting advancing PrCs, or just the ones that allow for any spellcasting class to be advanced? You've indicated that though magic meets arcane- and divine-specific prerequisites, despite being neither, but not whether the classes themselves can be advanced as such.

Quote
Ideas Outside Combat

I'd remove the part about losing the ability to express ideas without daily rest. Leave the rest requirement in for changing your deck and refreshing daily IP, sure, but it's unnecessarily punishing in some circumstances. Spellcasters don't lose their unused spells if they can't rest, they just don't get to replenish the ones they've used.

Daily IP is weird. You get very little of it, but there's also no need for it, since you still have your base 1 IP per turn outside of combat and by the time you can spend more than 1 IP per idea, you should have at least one idea that generates 2+ IP. I get the impression that this isn't the intent, though, that you aren't supposed to get that 1 IP/round outside of an encounter.

Outside of combat, I wouldn't bar the use of deck- and hand-modifying ideas, just state that those parts have no effects. There are a few ideas with deck- and hand-modifying rider effects.

I don't think you intended to have the free 1 IP/turn apply outside of battle, but if you do keep it or a mechanic like it, make sure it's structured such that players don't feel compelled to constantly refresh their short-duration buffs out of battle, either through a complete lack of free-use buffs that last more than 1 round or through some mechanism that inhibits that play pattern (ex: expressing a combat idea out of combat dismisses all previous combat ideas still ongoing) and/or obviates the need for it (ex: you can maintain 1/2/3 combat ideas out of combat, their durations remaining at maximum as long as their effects/targets remain nearby).

Quote
Encounters

I'm not a huge fan of this section. All three things here (locking the deck at the 10 round mark, ending effects 1 minute after combat ends, and penalizing avoiding combat) feel arbitrary. I understand the intent behind them, but they just leave a bad feeling.

If you want to curb the power of a thinned deck in excessively long encounters, perhaps some sort of deck reset mechanism instead, where under some conditions retired ideas as reshuffled into the deck (ex: move it to the discard pile after 1 minute or 5 deck shuffles or something)?

If you want to keep players from picking fights with rats so that they can buff up, don't make long-duration buff effects as ideas. You may wish to separate long-term effects (minutes/level duration and longer) from more immediate in-combat effects. Say, for example, you could have your basic in combat ideas with instantaneous and short durations (I'm inclined towards fixed durations of 1, 2, 3, 5, or 10 rounds rather than 1 round/level, personally), but some of them also have "grand vision" effects that allow them to produce long-term effects when you spend daily IP (rename to "Grand Vision Points" or something), which would also let you cut down on some of the arbitrary distinctions between in-combat and out-of-combat expressing.

I don't see the need to penalize players for taking the time to thin their deck and prebuff if they know an encounter is coming up but haven't actually engaged. That's just the standard benefits of preparation for an immediate upcoming encounter, like spellcasters unloading all their round/level buffs. You also don't want to encourage DMs to penalize players for avoiding combat legitimately, such as during stealth encounters or when attempting to retreat or flee.

Quote
Multiclassing

Multiclassing is a major nerf to a character, even without the lost thinker progression. You pad your deck with lots of lower-level ideas just by taking a single level of another thinker class. I'd just have each thinker progression give you a completely separate deck, rather than merging them all together, and have any deck manipulation from an idea associated with a deck only apply to that deck (ex: expressing Being Meta drawn from your Creative deck would only let you search your Creative discard pile). Hand size would either be separate for each class (ex: Creative 9/Strategist 4 draws 5 from Creative and 3 from Strategist decks each turn) or stacks class levels and lets you divide your draws between decks as you see fit (ex: Creative 9/Strategist 4 draws total 6 cards per turn divided as they choose between the two decks).

Quote
Changelog

I like change logs.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats] (WIP again)
Post by: TheGeometer on June 26, 2020, 09:33:41 AM
Thought Magic

I'm making a proper pass through the core mechanics now (as opposed to the quick skim from before).

Alright, this is awesome! Thanks so much!

Quote
You may wish to clarify that IP from previous turns doesn't carry over into following turns. It sounds like that's the intent by "starts each turn with 1 IP", but it would be nice to have it explicitly stated so you don't have to parse the implications of that sentence to find out.

Yeah, I'll fix that. IP doesn't carry over.

Quote
Can thinking classes be progressed by arcane- and divine-spellcasting advancing PrCs, or just the ones that allow for any spellcasting class to be advanced? You've indicated that though magic meets arcane- and divine-specific prerequisites, despite being neither, but not whether the classes themselves can be advanced as such.

Alright, I'll specify. Yes, it's any type of spellcasting.

Quote
Daily IP is weird. You get very little of it, but there's also no need for it, since you still have your base 1 IP per turn outside of combat and by the time you can spend more than 1 IP per idea, you should have at least one idea that generates 2+ IP. I get the impression that this isn't the intent, though, that you aren't supposed to get that 1 IP/round outside of an encounter.

Oh man, yeah, that's not the intent. 1 IP/round is supposed to be strictly a combat thing. There are all kinds of ideas that you really don't want people to have at will outside of combat (the Philosopher basically gets Polymorph, for starters). Will fix.

Quote
Outside of combat, I wouldn't bar the use of deck- and hand-modifying ideas, just state that those parts have no effects. There are a few ideas with deck- and hand-modifying rider effects.

Makes sense.

Quote
Quote
Encounters

I'm not a huge fan of this section. All three things here (locking the deck at the 10 round mark, ending effects 1 minute after combat ends, and penalizing avoiding combat) feel arbitrary. I understand the intent behind them, but they just leave a bad feeling.

Oh boy. This part. I have to say, there are no good answers here. Cards that modify the structure of the deck are an interesting mechanic that I definitely want to have, but the moment an encounter becomes non-standard, it just breaks. A combat with dozens of rounds of trench warfare, or a stealth encounter where you're picking off enemies one by one, or really any situation where you have long periods of time to improve your deck. Here, I'll respond point-for-point.

Quote
If you want to curb the power of a thinned deck in excessively long encounters, perhaps some sort of deck reset mechanism instead, where under some conditions retired ideas as reshuffled into the deck (ex: move it to the discard pile after 1 minute or 5 deck shuffles or something)?

That doesn't feel less arbitrary to me, and it breaks things way more when you consider ideas like Mindscythe. In a long combat, you could rip up all of your high-level ideas constantly, knowing they'll regenerate before long. Plus, it would feel really unfair to have the deck reset and become much weaker in the middle of an important fight. Like I said, no good answers, but I think the one I picked is the least not-good answer.

Quote
If you want to keep players from picking fights with rats so that they can buff up, don't make long-duration buff effects as ideas. You may wish to separate long-term effects (minutes/level duration and longer) from more immediate in-combat effects. Say, for example, you could have your basic in combat ideas with instantaneous and short durations (I'm inclined towards fixed durations of 1, 2, 3, 5, or 10 rounds rather than 1 round/level, personally), but some of them also have "grand vision" effects that allow them to produce long-term effects when you spend daily IP (rename to "Grand Vision Points" or something), which would also let you cut down on some of the arbitrary distinctions between in-combat and out-of-combat expressing.

I don't necessarily have a problem with long-duration effects though, I just don't want them to be abused with the rat-fighting you mentioned. And players will definitely want to cast some of the combat effects out of combat, like illusions to distract guards or summons to trigger traps, or stuff like that.

Quote
I don't see the need to penalize players for taking the time to thin their deck and prebuff if they know an encounter is coming up but haven't actually engaged. That's just the standard benefits of preparation for an immediate upcoming encounter, like spellcasters unloading all their round/level buffs. You also don't want to encourage DMs to penalize players for avoiding combat legitimately, such as during stealth encounters or when attempting to retreat or flee.

The problem is that the ratio between a buffed and unbuffed wizard's power is a lot closer to 1 than a Creative's. No amount of pre-buffing will give a wizard more high-level slots, more metamagic uses, and a significantly higher CL, but thinker classes can effectively get that stuff given enough time to pare down the deck. I could set a minimum size that the deck can reach, but there's no good way to balance that - I want the benefits of resizing the deck mid-combat to be significant, without that benefit being too significant if done ahead of time.

I don't like having any of these rules. I just don't want players to abuse the system. I don't want to reward players (or bad DMs) for having their thinker characters do obnoxious strategies like staying invisible for the first minute of the encounter while they summon monsters just often enough to keep the combat going. This is the problem I really want a good solution to. If you come up with anything that can balance this for all these fringe cases, please let me know - I'm not happy with anything I've come up with so far.

Quote
Multiclassing is a major nerf to a character, even without the lost thinker progression. You pad your deck with lots of lower-level ideas just by taking a single level of another thinker class. I'd just have each thinker progression give you a completely separate deck, rather than merging them all together

I dunno, dealing with multiple decks seems really annoying. What if I still mixed the decks, but added 1 to the hand size per additional thinker class? That makes it easier to shift through all the 0th-level garbage. I'm not sure if that's enough to balance it, I'd have to look at specific cases. Of course, I don't want Creative 5 / Philosopher 5 to be as good as Creative 10, but you're right that the penalty for multiclassing seems excessive at the moment.

Quote
I like change logs.

Keep an eye on the second one. I keep finding dumb things I need to fix.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on June 28, 2020, 09:45:17 AM
Okay, sorry for the double-post, but I came up with a solution that avoids the convoluted mess of encounter rules and out-of-combat expressing rules and daily IP and stuff. Basically, I made a mechanic called "idle thinking," as opposed to regular expressing, which I called "intense thinking", and made both of them limited per day. I updated the first post of the thread with the new mechanics (as well as making the classes and feats match it). Let me know if you see any ways to break it.

Also, the idea overhaul is now done. Some of them might not be balanced in periods of idle thought, but I'm hoping to fix that on a case-by-case basis. Other than that, everything should be balanced now, and if it isn't, please tell me. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on June 28, 2020, 10:08:55 PM
And you told me that you were done overhauling.   :P

I'll give Garryl a chance to give more feedback before I start reviewing.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Garryl on June 28, 2020, 10:15:24 PM
Don't wait for me. I don't have a ton of time or energy for homebrew reviewing, so I'm going through this very slowly. If you wait for my back-and-forth with TheGeometer to finish before you start, you're going to wait for a while.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on June 29, 2020, 08:01:22 AM
And you told me that you were done overhauling.   :P

Now I'm actually done overhauling. For real this time. Really.

In all seriousness, the only hurdle I still needed to overcome was the question of how to make this system mostly at-will in combat and limited outside of it, especially in campaigns where the line between combat and not-combat is blurry. I had a hodgepodge of rules, but now I think I fixed it. Unless someone finds a glaring flaw in the current mechanics or suggests a better way to do it, I don't plan on overhauling anything else. You're free to look over it.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on July 06, 2020, 03:59:07 PM
Okay, I'll start with the basic rules of Thought Magic.

Why do uses for idle thinking scale and intense thinking don't?

Idle vs intense feels clunky but it works.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on July 06, 2020, 05:12:59 PM
Why do uses for idle thinking scale and intense thinking don't?

Intense thinking is intended for encounters, while idle is intended for out-of-combat casting. I don't want any poor DM to wait for a player to shuffle their deck over and over until they can express a buff with Extend Idea or whatever. That's mainly what I'm concerned will happen if I give the player too many periods of intense thinking.

So yeah, it's mostly because the number of encounters you get in a day doesn't seem to change much as you level.

Actually, what if I just give the player a set amount of periods of idle thinking (like 3 + hand size + 1/2 modifier), and then make it so that intense thinking counts as 2 periods of idle thinking? That way, the scaling doesn't seem as weird, and your magical options don't go unused in days with less than 3 encounters. I feel like that would also incentivize players not to needlessly enter periods of intense thinking, since it's generally better to save it for utility unless you're in combat.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on July 06, 2020, 08:55:44 PM
Given that the average number of encounters per day is recommended to be 4, 3 feels like a weird place to be.

Having everything come out of the same pool would simplify things, I like it.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on July 07, 2020, 06:53:08 PM
Okay, idle and intense thinking per day have been changed to pull from a single pool of daily uses. Thanks!
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on July 10, 2020, 01:21:11 PM
On to The Creative.

Why isn't Sense Motive on the skill list?  It gets Bluff and Diplomacy.

What happens if your imaginary friend dies?  Can you choose to have it not progress (for example, if it being huge or garguantuan would make it useless because you spend all of your time inside)?

I'm not a big fan of Masterpiece.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on July 11, 2020, 07:23:14 AM
On to The Creative.

Why isn't Sense Motive on the skill list?  It gets Bluff and Diplomacy.

Fair enough. Fixed.

Quote
What happens if your imaginary friend dies?  Can you choose to have it not progress (for example, if it being huge or garguantuan would make it useless because you spend all of your time inside)?

I actually addressed both of those questions, though I don't blame you for missing them in the wall of text:

Quote from: TheGeometer
Whenever the Creative has the ability to gain a new friend, she may select either the form made available to her most recently or any of the forms detailed at lower levels. A new imaginary friend can be created either when an old one dies or when the Creative dismisses it (a free action), but either way, the process requires 24 uninterrupted hours of concentration.

Quote
I'm not a big fan of Masterpiece.

Alright, fine, I can take a hint. My track record is 3/3 reviewers not liking Masterpiece. I figured WBL is a cool thing to tinker with that not many classes address, but I guess it runs into too many issues. I swapped it out with a new class feature called Worldbuilding. Let me know what you think. I figured the demiplane could make a good setting for someone who wanted to run with that, and I don't think it's too broken at that level assuming I didn't miss an obvious loophole.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on July 11, 2020, 07:37:47 PM
Quote
Creatures from her world that are brought outside the plane die within 1 minute.

How does the Creative and their party not die after a minute?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on July 11, 2020, 07:42:50 PM
Quote
Creatures from her world that are brought outside the plane die within 1 minute.

How does the Creative and their party not die after a minute?

Good catch. I meant creatures native to the plane. Fixed now.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on July 11, 2020, 08:02:52 PM
Ahh, that makes way more sense.

Other than this being the only written rules I've seen that attempt to codify an actual viable ecosystem I think it looks better than Masterpiece.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on July 31, 2020, 07:10:18 PM
Are people still reviewing this? Because from a balance perspective, I'm most concerned about the ideas, and nobody seems to have read that far yet
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 01, 2020, 08:47:00 PM
You never responded and I forgot about it.   :lmao
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 02, 2020, 09:25:25 AM
I just figured we were done with the Creative, so we were going to move onto the next thing
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 02, 2020, 07:24:43 PM
I just figured we were done with the Creative, so we were going to move onto the next thing

I was done with the creative, you're right there.  However, I check all threads with new posts and forget about things I posted unless I am reminded that I wasn't done yet.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 05, 2020, 07:20:29 AM
I check all threads with new posts and forget about things I posted unless I am reminded that I wasn't done yet.

Okay, well, don't reply to this until you have suggestions on the homebrew, then :p

...also, I hope I don't sound ungrateful. I really appreciate anyone willing to wade through all that text just to help me out. In case I haven't said it already, thanks so much!
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 07, 2020, 10:42:21 AM
No worries, everything is fine.

On to the Philosopher!

Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 07, 2020, 04:22:45 PM
Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.

Fixed. Specified that you can't sell it. I guess you could rules-lawyer it and find other ways to make a profit from the stones, but honestly, if your DM is that willing to let your 20th-level character get away with stuff, you're gonna break the game anyway. It's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 07, 2020, 07:45:45 PM
Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.

Fixed. Specified that you can't sell it. I guess you could rules-lawyer it and find other ways to make a profit from the stones, but honestly, if your DM is that willing to let your 20th-level character get away with stuff, you're gonna break the game anyway. It's only a matter of time.

I wasn't even thinking about selling it.  I was thinking about how the basic features of the Philospher's Stone involve turning cheap metals into valuable ones.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 08, 2020, 05:13:39 AM
I wasn't even thinking about selling it.  I was thinking about how the basic features of the Philospher's Stone involve turning cheap metals into valuable ones.

Oh yeah, duh, I forgot the whole point is the stone turns lead into gold. Uh, alright, I changed it so now only 1 stone can be created per month. 1000 lbs of gold is, what, 100,000 gp? Getting 20% of your WBL once per month doesn't seem super broken, I think.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 08, 2020, 01:19:09 PM
Once a month works and is in line with a Pathfinder equivalent capstone (not that you care about balancing against pathfinder. :p).
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 08, 2020, 07:39:24 PM
Groovy. On to the Strategist!
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 08, 2020, 10:16:23 PM
Strategist!

Siege Engines.  Huh.

There's nothing wrong with the class, but it just feels meh to me.  I have no explanation off-hand.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 11, 2020, 05:20:39 PM
Siege Engines.  Huh.

There's nothing wrong with the class, but it just feels meh to me.  I have no explanation off-hand.

You know, I feel the same way. I think it's a holdover from when the Strategist ideas were way more powerful than the Creative and Philosopher. I guess I thought that the Strategist shouldn't get anything too powerful while its already so far ahead. But I've since nerfed a lot of the Strategist's main arsenal and given the other 2 classes plenty to work with, and besides, I agree. Why siege engines? It seems much more fitting for a more warfare-oriented prestige class than a base class, especially since literally none of the Strategist's ideas reference siege engines. Int to saves is boring filler, and of all the class features, only Tried and True had anything to do with idea magic at all. It was indeed all very meh. It was generic and forgettable.

So... (don't be mad)... I overhauled it. I can kick the habit I swear. I can stop overhauling any time I want!

But, uh, yeah, basically all the class features are different now. Mind taking another look?

(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 14, 2020, 10:28:07 AM
Overhauling is a perfectly normal response to reviewing, of course I'm not mad.   :P

Strategist Part Two!

I like Selective Idea but 1/day > 2/day > Unlimited/day is a weird progression.  Maybe 1/day > Int Mod/Day > Unlimited?

I'm seeing a lot of limited per day stuff which I personally am not a fan of but the class as a whole looks a lot more interesting now.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 15, 2020, 01:28:07 PM
I changed it from per-day to per-intense-thought (aka per combat, generally). Especially with how short combat gets toward level 20, 2/encounter and unlimited aren't too far apart anyway. And this way there's no need to ration the ability for later encounters. It also indirectly scales with Int mod, like your suggestion Nanshork, since the number of intense thoughts per day depends on your primary modifier.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 20, 2020, 04:58:54 PM
That actually looks way better than my proposal.  You've got a double space after the word use in that class feature now.

On to Feats!

Final thought is odd. 

Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 21, 2020, 03:43:28 AM
That actually looks way better than my proposal.  You've got a double space after the word use in that class feature now.

Fixed now.

Final thought is odd.

How so?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 22, 2020, 12:22:39 PM
Final thought is odd.

How so?

It's only really useful if it can prevent the damage or heal you but there's only one healing idea so those aren't likely scenarios.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 22, 2020, 02:45:13 PM
It's only really useful if it can prevent the damage or heal you but there's only one healing idea so those aren't likely scenarios.

I disagree. An extra action is always useful, especially if your party's getting their asses kicked so much that you've just been knocked out. I wasn't even intending it for use in preventing damage or healing (though that's a decent use of it for sure).
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 22, 2020, 04:48:08 PM
This is D&D. In my experience if you're going below 0 hp it's because you're dead and not knocked out.  :P
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 23, 2020, 05:08:05 AM
Weird. I know the window between -10 and 0 HP is kinda small, but somehow I end up in it a lot.

Anyway, I need to brainstorm ways to tweak it. I'd also like to come up with new [General] feats to replace the siege engine stuff. But in the meantime, we can move on to the idea list.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 23, 2020, 11:24:04 AM
Maybe you're lucky or your DMs fudge rolls for than mine.

Or maybe I'm unlucky.  :lol
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Garryl on August 23, 2020, 03:48:00 PM
A quick estimate of the chance of falling into the diehard range is to divide 10 by the average damage dealt by enemies (maximum 100%, obviously). A slightly more accurate way would be to take a weighted average of 10 divided by each possible damage result enemies can deal. For example, a Dire Wolf (1d8+10, with a 1/20 chance to deal double with a crit), has about a 67% chance of dropping a character into the range of 0 to -9 with a sufficiently long series of attacks starting at a random initial hp value.

Example Anydice code:
Code: [Select]
DAMAGE: {1d8+10:19,2d8+20:1}
output [lowest of 1000/(1dDAMAGE) and 100] named "diehard"

Some damage values for reference:
(click to show/hide)

The odds can improve or worsen depending on how your DM plays different monsters with multiple attacks when they drop a character, whether they move on to other combatants immediately, or continue to direct attacks at an unconscious character until they're dead (not an issue for Final Thoughts, as its immediate action activation would interrupt any subsequent attacks, so more of a regular Diehard thing). Also, multiple attacks with different amounts of damage are weird to calculate, although I suspect they'd overall overall improve your chances of landing in the Diehard range; smaller attacks have lower chances of skipping it, and would whittle down your hp more slowly leading to the high damage attacks risking KOing you when you have more hp remaining and thus barely nudging you into the Diehard range.

Of course, that's also ignoring the many other ways of losing hp or dying that make falling into the Diehard range irrelevant, such as death effects, being disabled by spells when it happens, etc.



Since I've already written so much about the topic, here are some thoughts about Final Thought. I'm not a huge fan of these types of feats in general. Getting dropped isn't a common occurrence in my experience, and falling in the Diehard range when that does happen only comes up maybe 60% of the time when it does happen. Using this sort of feat can help win the fight, but it does reduce your odds of surviving the fight sometimes; a creature that drops you unconscious might move on to your allies that still threaten it, but if you're still up and fighting, it's all but guaranteed to stick around to finish you off. Final Thought bucks the trend of Diehard effects somewhat by being more of a Death Throes ability instead, getting one last effect off before you slip into an unthreatening unconsciousness. This lets you disrupt your enemies as you drop, hopefully preventing them from finishing you off while you're so vulnerable, and unlike Diehard, you're not still up and fighting so you're not an overt threat that still needs to be neutralized.

For practical purposes, I'd expect Final Thought to be used more as a last-ditch, reactive life saver than an offensive Death Throes, since it's only usable when you're at death's door rather than when you've irrevocably passed beyond it. By mid levels (the earliest you can even take the feat with its thinker level 8 prerequisite), you have a few ideas that are good for this sort of thing, such as Being and Nothingness, Mindarmor, On Life, Reposition, and even Stinking Cloud, in addition to less effective lower-level variants such as Graceful Dance, Healing Touch, and Take Positions. If you build for it, having redrawn your hand at the end of your previous turn, odds are pretty good that you'll have at least one idea along those lines, probably 85% or so.

A get out of death free card is great to have. Unfortunately, I think it's not reliable enough for what you're paying. You can hit the Diehard range with a relevant defensive idea in hand maybe 50% of the time, which is a little less reliable than I'd like, and it gets worse at higher levels as damage numbers keep rising. It's a more reliable and more powerful version of the Rogue's Defensive Roll in terms of not dying, at least, but that's not saying all that much.

The new version lets it be used regardless of how low below 0 you go, rather than only if you fall into the Diehard range, so it has full Death Throes capability. You probably still want it more for saving your life, rather than getting a bit of vengeance at the end of it, but at least you get a consolation prize if you can't do that by improving the odds for the rest of your party even if you still kick the bucket and die.

As I mentioned, getting dropped isn't a very common occurrence for PCs in my experience (very common for NPCs, though). I'd have trouble justifying a feat on mitigating something that happens to my character maybe a couple of times per campaign when I could instead pick up more proactive abilities that would keep defeat from being a concern in the first place. It's a really good feat for NPCs, though, as it's basically a 50% chance of getting an extra idea off during a fight. I also don't have much experience with higher-level rocket tag combats, where this sort of reactive ability might be all the more necessary to survive, although fights like that would have even greater odds of bypassing the Diehard range and just invalidating the feat entirely, so I doubt it.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 26, 2020, 01:52:26 PM
Okay, couldn't think of how to get Final Thought to be worth it, so I scrapped it. Siege Weapon Experience and Siege Weapon Mastery have also been scrapped, because they have nothing to do with this magic system anymore.

New feats added: Flexible Learner [General], Afterthought, Narrow Focus, and Practiced Thinker.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 27, 2020, 11:13:43 AM
I honestly don't know how I feel about Flexible Learner from a balance perspective.  That might be because I woke up half an hour ago.

I don't understand the point of Narrow Focus, especially with it lasting an entire level.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 27, 2020, 12:17:36 PM
I honestly don't know how I feel about Flexible Learner from a balance perspective.  That might be because I woke up half an hour ago.

Not sure how it breaks anything to be able to change your spells once per level rather than once every 4. I only made it so you could do it any time (instead of only on level-up) because that seems helpful in niche circumstances and it felt too underpowered otherwise. But I'm pretty neutral about it.

I don't understand the point of Narrow Focus, especially with it lasting an entire level.

So, maybe I should make it more clear. You're removing idea slots from your deck composition, not individual ideas. Meaning, if your deck has a composition like 2/5/5/4, you could change it to 1/4/5/4, for instance, or even 1/4/4/4. Now your deck has fewer low-level ideas, so you draw your higher-level ideas more often. Each level, your deck composition changes, and you get to change which levels of ideas have their quantity reduced by 1, if you want.

Does that make sense? Is there a better way to phrase the feat description?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 27, 2020, 02:22:00 PM
I understand what Narrow Focus does, I just don't understand why I would ever want to use it.  I guess I'll just have to look at the ideas and realize that the low level ones are apparently always terrible and unwanted.   :p

Flexible Learner doesn't break anything, but it is a massive upgrade for spontaneous casters that don't have fixed lists.  I see no reason why I would ever not take it as a Sorcerer which makes me feel like it is too good.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 27, 2020, 06:35:08 PM
Nah, the lower-level ideas are fine. But the issue with them taking up space in a deck is that you're potentially drawing them instead of something better. It's a very real advantage to be able to clear lower-level ideas from your deck.

As for Flexible Learner, I'm not sure what's so massive about it. If you pick spells you end up using and never feel the need to swap them out, this feat is useless to you. I've played spontaneous casters before, and I didn't ever feel super strongly that my spells known needed to be tweaked faster than once every 4 levels. Certainly not strong enough that I'd ever spend a feat slot on this.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 27, 2020, 07:28:17 PM
Flexible Learner means that a spontaneous caster can take focused or extremely situational spells, a thing that they traditionally never do because they're a waste of spell choices. 

I don't know how you normally play spontaneous casters but in my experience they normally know the most broadly applicable spells possible and leave the situational stuff to wizards or consumable magic items.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 28, 2020, 05:51:57 AM
Flexible Learner means that a spontaneous caster can take focused or extremely situational spells, a thing that they traditionally never do because they're a waste of spell choices. 

I don't know how you normally play spontaneous casters but in my experience they normally know the most broadly applicable spells possible and leave the situational stuff to wizards or consumable magic items.

Well, you still only get to change one spell known per level, so you're taking at most one extremely situational spell. And even then, it would have to be applicable enough that you get mileage out of it for every encounter until you level up again, so it's not even that situational either. Are you sure you're reading this correctly? It seems like we're talking about two completely different feats here.

(I also went back and changed the wording of Narrow Focus. Hopefully if there was any confusion there, it's cleared up)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 28, 2020, 10:33:35 AM
On Flexible Learner, I either missed the last line or you stealth edited it.  I'd never take the feat now, it's not too powerful.  :P

I get Narrow Focus after your earlier explanation.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 28, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
On Flexible Learner, I either missed the last line or you stealth edited it.  I'd never take the feat now, it's not too powerful.  :P

I did stealth-edit it, just a little. The original wording of the last line was something like, "Once a spell/power/idea known has been changed, you may not make another such change again until the next time you gain a level in the class". But when I looked back on it, I realized people might think you were allowed to change each spell once per level, rather than 1 spell per level total.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on August 28, 2020, 09:19:15 PM
Done with feats/ready for ideas?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on August 29, 2020, 05:40:23 AM
Done with feats/ready for ideas?

Heck yeah :)

I recommend that you read the class lists first rather than just wading through the idea list. They all have the same 0th-level ideas, but they diverge a lot starting at level 1. The paragraph just above "MAKING A __" for each class also summarizes how each class's ideas encourage a different play style.

Some stuff to keep in mind:


Thanks again for helping me with this!
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 03, 2020, 08:11:43 PM
I'm just going to wade through them willy-nilly because I'm super lazy and mainly just want to make sure that things are balanced for their level and make sense.   :P
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 03, 2020, 08:46:21 PM
Level 0

All good.


Level 1

Is Swift Action vs Free really worth an extra IP for taking up an action slot?  You don't have a whole lot of uses for swift actions at low levels so I feel like that one would be the default to take.

Elemental Knowledge (Water) feels underwhelming.


Level 2

Ingenious Machine - does the turret get strength to damage too?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 04, 2020, 06:19:27 AM
Is Swift Action vs Free really worth an extra IP for taking up an action slot?  You don't have a whole lot of uses for swift actions at low levels so I feel like that one would be the default to take.

Keep in mind that you can't augment at all until level 5, and you get 1 IP at the start of your turn. Meaning that until level 5, you'll never need more than 1 bonus IP per turn for that second move-action idea - so Insight and Swift Meditation are equivalent up until then (making Insight the default). And by level 5, you might have an Amulet of Tears or Anklets of Translocation or something, and anyway it sucks if you draw 2 of them and can only use 1. So there are minor drawbacks there.

I'm leaning toward either nerfing it to 1d2 IP or keeping it as-is, but I'd need to playtest to make up my mind on it. The main point is to give players the option of having lots of IP if they want it (with the tradeoff that they'll draw fewer ideas that actually do something). I'd like for the number of IP-generating cards in a deck composition to be up to playstyle, rather than there always being a specific optimal choice.

Elemental Knowledge (Water) feels underwhelming.

I changed it to 1d6, Ref half. That also helps differentiate it from Earth damage. It was only 0.5 less damage than Earth per die, but yeah, it was kinda underwhelming.

Ingenious Machine - does the turret get strength to damage too?

It does. I edited the text to make that more explicit.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 06, 2020, 06:48:17 PM
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Level 3 Ideas

Being and Time - What happens if you reduce someone's level to 0, effectively de-aging them to before they were born?  Making it similar to the "dying of old age" language would make sense from a mechanical perspective.


Level 4

Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Making a Call - I don't know how I feel about this one.  It feels super meta.

Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

Tunnel Vision is blocked by metal so now I want to use it to help with mining.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 07, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Yeah, that's intentional. Swift Meditation isn't supposed to interfere with other IP generation, only with other swift actions like items and a few spell-like ideas. I didn't mention it before, but actually the main thing it interferes with is the feat Thought on the Run. It's a significant drawback - you're giving up your ability to both move and express 2 ideas that turn. Ditto for other swift-action alternatives to TotR, like Travel Devotion.

Being and Time - What happens if you reduce someone's level to 0, effectively de-aging them to before they were born?  Making it similar to the "dying of old age" language would make sense from a mechanical perspective.

Good point. I'll add that.

Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Yup. I'll add a sentence clarifying that. Though you won't usually get the chance, since you rarely draw the last card in your deck as the last card in your hand.

This is a general rule of deck-building games: an empty deck is a valid state. You can put cards on top of it, you can shuffle it (which has no effect of course), and you can put cards on bottom of it (which is the same as on top). The only thing that causes an issue is drawing from it - that's why your discard pile gets shuffled and becomes your deck any time you need to do that.

Making a Call - I don't know how I feel about this one.  It feels super meta.

It's designed to be a tangible benefit for the Strategist knowing the order of cards in her deck. It synergizes well with Turnabout, Cogitation, Thinking Ahead, Perfect Information, and Bring to Mind. Or if you don't have any of those, it's a fun last-resort gamble.

Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

You mean to track which spells you've seen before? I'll probably remove that line. DMs usually impose that kind of rule themselves anyway - for instance, restricting Polymorph forms to monsters the player knows in-character. I don't see a pressing need to require it for all campaigns.

Tunnel Vision is blocked by metal so now I want to use it to help with mining.

Not gonna find a whole lot with only a round/level duration, but sure.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 07, 2020, 03:07:23 PM
Meditation, Swift is standing out to me more after some digging because it is the only swift action IP granting idea out of all of the ideas at any level.

Yeah, that's intentional. Swift Meditation isn't supposed to interfere with other IP generation, only with other swift actions like items and a few spell-like ideas. I didn't mention it before, but actually the main thing it interferes with is the feat Thought on the Run. It's a significant drawback - you're giving up your ability to both move and express 2 ideas that turn. Ditto for other swift-action alternatives to TotR, like Travel Devotion.


It's just weird because I'd rather take higher level Free action IP generation than a level 1 Swift action IP generation. 

Quote
Epiphany - If it's at the bottom of your deck and you draw and use it before reshuffling your deck does it become the only card in your deck?

Yup. I'll add a sentence clarifying that. Though you won't usually get the chance, since you rarely draw the last card in your deck as the last card in your hand.

This is a general rule of deck-building games: an empty deck is a valid state. You can put cards on top of it, you can shuffle it (which has no effect of course), and you can put cards on bottom of it (which is the same as on top). The only thing that causes an issue is drawing from it - that's why your discard pile gets shuffled and becomes your deck any time you need to do that.

We play different deck building games.   :P

Quote
Recreate from Memory also feels meta and super annoying to track.

You mean to track which spells you've seen before? I'll probably remove that line. DMs usually impose that kind of rule themselves anyway - for instance, restricting Polymorph forms to monsters the player knows in-character. I don't see a pressing need to require it for all campaigns.


Yep, tracking which spells you've seen before sounds annoying.  I also don't play with DMs that impose those kinds of rules themselves (not that it would impact me because I don't play standard spellcasters).
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 07, 2020, 03:55:06 PM
It's just weird because I'd rather take higher level Free action IP generation than a level 1 Swift action IP generation. 

Well, the thing is that you have to use your 1st-level idea slots for something, and at higher levels, IP generation is often better than some low-save offensive or utility effect. I'd probably say that at the moment, Swift Meditation is useful for one or two of those slots from level 5 to around level 10, while Insight is better for lower and higher levels.

But I see your point. Maybe there should be other swift-action IP generation at higher idea levels. Say, a 3rd-level idea that grants +4 IP as a swift, and a 5th-level idea that grants +6. Something like that. I dunno, I'm not convinced that's an interesting or necessary thing to do.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 07, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
I don't know what is needed, I just know that it stands out as a completely unique phenomenon and thus feels a little weird.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 08, 2020, 07:18:40 AM
Changed Swift Meditation to Introspection (C1, P1, S1), and added Great Introspection (C3, P3, S3) and Critical Introspection (C5, P5, S5). So now swift-action IP generation is a thing at multiple levels. Also it gives the Strategist and Philosopher IP generation at idea level 5, which they didn't have before.

And I fixed Recreate from Memory and Being and Time like we mentioned, too.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 10, 2020, 06:38:00 PM
Sounds good.

I was going to do the level 5 and 6 ideas now but I feel bleh and can't focus.  I will do them later.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 15, 2020, 08:26:21 PM
No worries. When you're ready, I'm excited to see what you think. 5th and 6th level is when this system gets really nuts.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 21, 2020, 08:19:25 PM
Level 5 Ideas

A house divided says "immediately attack their allies" but then it lasts for 2 rounds.  Is it meant to have the targets attack their allies during their normal turns?

Crystal Clarity is another weird meta one and it also lets you see through everyone's clothes.

Final Cut - I'm not a big fan off introducing handedness when that's not a part of the core rules.  I actually remember writing up some very clean text for this kind of thing as part of another project but I can't find it anywhere.

"You summon a huge aquatic beast that’s a metaphor for the government or something."   :lmao

So Crazy It Just Might Work is just insane.  I don't even know how to feel about this.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 22, 2020, 06:29:39 AM
A house divided says "immediately attack their allies" but then it lasts for 2 rounds.  Is it meant to have the targets attack their allies during their normal turns?
Good catch. I specified that it happens on their turns (also I changed it to only 1 round because it seemed too strong).

Quote
Crystal Clarity is another weird meta one and it also lets you see through everyone's clothes.
It was mostly me flailing and trying to close up all the loopholes. Hopefully it's fine. Also yes, I suppose it does.

Quote
Final Cut - I'm not a big fan off introducing handedness when that's not a part of the core rules.  I actually remember writing up some very clean text for this kind of thing as part of another project but I can't find it anywhere.

Is the debuff unnecessary? I wanted to make losing an arm have a meaningful impact, whereas at the moment, unless the target wields a weapon two-handed, it's not close to as bad as losing a leg. But then again, enemies that wield weapons one-handed probably use their other hand for something, so it might be fine without the -4.

Quote
"You summon a huge aquatic beast that’s a metaphor for the government or something."   :lmao
I had a lot of fun writing that. In case it's not obvious, most of the Philosopher's idea names are bad puns on philosophy texts. The class features, too - Kant had a trilogy called The Critique of Practical Reason, The Critique of Pure Reason, and the The Critique of Judgment. I don't know anything about philosophy or anything, I just like wordplay.

Quote
So Crazy It Just Might Work is just insane.  I don't even know how to feel about this.
I looked at it again and realized it was super broken. Those 3 effects on their own could've been, respectively, a 4th-level, 6th-level, and 9th-level spell. So I nerfed it substantially. Now the items don't switch, the appearance swap is an illusion, and instead of thinking they're you, they're just not allowed to communicate with their allies. Also the saves are all Will now because that makes the most sense.


An unrelated question - I'm thinking of increasing the ideas known progression. Maybe to 8 ideas of each level known by the end instead of 6. The current progression seems very restrictive, where there are fewer ideas known than prepared. It doesn't leave much room for more niche ideas. What do you think?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 24, 2020, 12:11:07 AM
I'm typing on the phone so won't do a quote pyramid.

Crystal Clarity is so oddball that I don't have any idea how to think about it from a balance perspective. Also I don't know why I was focused on seeing through people's clothes.  :lmao

Final Cut - If you want a debuff for the arm being gone and not being able to use the arm to hold a weapon/shield/whatever isn't enough, you could always go with the optional rules on page 27 of the DMG.

I haven't played attention to philosophy since high school so I missed all the philosophy references.

So Crazy It Just Might Work is now oddball instead of outright gonzo. Much better.

Honestly I'm not sure what the best way to go with idea progression would be. I don't like traditional spellcasting so I don't play traditional casters which means that it's harder for me to know what a good balance for that spellcasting equivalence from a class features perspective.



Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on September 24, 2020, 04:19:35 AM
So Crazy It Just Might Work is now oddball instead of outright gonzo.

You have the best adjectives :)

Anyway, I'll keep thinking about ideas known progressions. Let me know when you get through level 6.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on September 25, 2020, 11:50:04 AM
So Crazy It Just Might Work is now oddball instead of outright gonzo.

You have the best adjectives :)

Anyway, I'll keep thinking about ideas known progressions. Let me know when you get through level 6.

I minored in English in college, I have to use that education somehow.   :lol
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on October 05, 2020, 10:30:13 AM
Doing a playtest, which is helping me uncover some stuff. I just fixed a bunch of ideas that could originally be played to have no effect (for instance, playing Rethink and discarding 0 cards). Now none of them allow that. It's a useful trick in certain cases due to Mindarrow or the Trump Card feat, but it wasn't intentional and I just wanted to make that explicit. Modify Idea also now explicitly changes the lengths of effects along with their shapes (so a 120-ft line becomes a 30-ft burst, not a 120-ft burst). Again, just a RAI misstep, though this time it was sorta game-breaking.

Not much else to say. Mostly bumping to remind Nanshork to go over the 6th-level stuff. We're so close to being done!
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on October 05, 2020, 11:58:49 AM
Level 6 Ideas!

Dance Number  :lmao

I have no other feedback for level 6, looks good.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on October 05, 2020, 03:48:11 PM
Level 6 Ideas!

Dance Number  :lmao

I have no other feedback for level 6, looks good.

Haha, nice. Dance Number's one of my favorites.

And we're done! Awesome, thanks so much for your feedback, Nanshork. You helped me find a ton of stuff that I wouldn't have caught otherwise.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on October 05, 2020, 06:01:23 PM
Happy to do it, you come up with interesting systems and I like reading them.

I like the general theme of the Philopher's ideas, too bad I'll never get to play one.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on February 12, 2021, 05:49:59 PM
Hey, so I just finished a campaign where one of my players was a Creative, and it inspired a few changes and a bunch more ideas. YAY! (Don't worry, you guys don't have to review the new ones, I'm a lot surer of the balance at this point anyway :p). I figured out what they're supposed to do and put their names in the changelog (first post of this thread, last spoiler), but haven't put in anything past levels 1 and 2.

The issue is, as I was typing them in, I hit the 60,000-character cap. I didn't save enough posts at the start of this thread to give every level of idea its own post. For now, I moved the level-0 ideas and did some panic-edits, but I'd like to not be so close to the cap, and I'll probably hit it again in the level 3-4 and 5-6 posts. What should I do?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 12, 2021, 05:54:53 PM
Option #1: Ask for mod deletion of my first post which gives you another post to work with.  I'm okay with this if it happens.

Option #2: Make use of this functionality: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17982
Title: Continued: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on February 12, 2021, 07:44:23 PM
Trying the sticky option. What am I doing wrong? (I also tried putting the "Continued" in parentheses like in Prime's post)
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 12, 2021, 10:15:22 PM
Did you try putting the Continued in parenthesis without the : ?
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 12, 2021, 10:16:43 PM
If so, whatever Prime did might be broken due to updates or something.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 12, 2021, 11:49:50 PM
I have confirmed it doesn't work anymore and hasn't for a while.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on February 13, 2021, 05:45:41 AM
I have confirmed it doesn't work anymore and hasn't for a while.

That sucks. Then I guess we'll go with deleting your posts. I think I need the first 2 gone.

Could you report them? I feel like less justification is involved if someone asks for their own posts to be removed.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 14, 2021, 01:39:57 PM
Done although I sincerely doubt it would have mattered, it's not like this is a new type of issue.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on February 15, 2021, 11:34:41 AM
Done although I sincerely doubt it would have mattered, it's not like this is a new type of issue.

Thanks!  :D
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on February 16, 2021, 07:18:32 PM
Done although I sincerely doubt it would have mattered, it's not like this is a new type of issue.

Thanks!  :D

They're gone now if you didn't notice so you can go wild.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Garryl on February 19, 2021, 04:09:21 PM
It lacks the perfect continuity of a planned thread of reserved posts, but you could always post the additional content later in the thread and have an index with links in the first post. Bonus points if you go out of your way to have each individual post have a link to the previous, next, an index post (but that's far more than you would need).
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on March 09, 2021, 05:57:10 PM
I need one more post to have enough room for idea levels 5 and 6. How do I contact a mod to remove Nanshork and Soro's posts just after the end of the info on page 1? I don't just report the posts, do I? Sorry for not being knowledgeable about this, I haven't had much interaction with the mods here
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: Nanshork on March 09, 2021, 07:52:51 PM
Reporting the posts would be the simplest way to do it.  I reported my own posts to have them deleted.
Title: Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
Post by: TheGeometer on May 23, 2021, 06:49:40 AM
Okay, I made a ton of post-playtest fixes and added over 50 new ideas (the changes are summarized in the last spoiler of the first post's changelog). I don't expect another review, but I just wanted to announce that it's done. This has turned into quite a robust homebrew system and I'm pretty proud of it.  :D

UPDATE: Work on this system has moved to my magic system compendium, the Book of Seven Secrets, here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?board=132.0). This post is out of date, and changes and added features will be over there.