Author Topic: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]  (Read 19011 times)

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2020, 07:20:29 AM »
I check all threads with new posts and forget about things I posted unless I am reminded that I wasn't done yet.

Okay, well, don't reply to this until you have suggestions on the homebrew, then :p

...also, I hope I don't sound ungrateful. I really appreciate anyone willing to wade through all that text just to help me out. In case I haven't said it already, thanks so much!

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2020, 10:42:21 AM »
No worries, everything is fine.

On to the Philosopher!

Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2020, 04:22:45 PM »
Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.

Fixed. Specified that you can't sell it. I guess you could rules-lawyer it and find other ways to make a profit from the stones, but honestly, if your DM is that willing to let your 20th-level character get away with stuff, you're gonna break the game anyway. It's only a matter of time.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2020, 07:45:45 PM »
Well, the capstone ability ends up being unlimited WBL.  That could be an issue.

Fixed. Specified that you can't sell it. I guess you could rules-lawyer it and find other ways to make a profit from the stones, but honestly, if your DM is that willing to let your 20th-level character get away with stuff, you're gonna break the game anyway. It's only a matter of time.

I wasn't even thinking about selling it.  I was thinking about how the basic features of the Philospher's Stone involve turning cheap metals into valuable ones.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2020, 05:13:39 AM »
I wasn't even thinking about selling it.  I was thinking about how the basic features of the Philospher's Stone involve turning cheap metals into valuable ones.

Oh yeah, duh, I forgot the whole point is the stone turns lead into gold. Uh, alright, I changed it so now only 1 stone can be created per month. 1000 lbs of gold is, what, 100,000 gp? Getting 20% of your WBL once per month doesn't seem super broken, I think.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2020, 01:19:09 PM »
Once a month works and is in line with a Pathfinder equivalent capstone (not that you care about balancing against pathfinder. :p).

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2020, 07:39:24 PM »
Groovy. On to the Strategist!

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2020, 10:16:23 PM »
Strategist!

Siege Engines.  Huh.

There's nothing wrong with the class, but it just feels meh to me.  I have no explanation off-hand.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2020, 05:20:39 PM »
Siege Engines.  Huh.

There's nothing wrong with the class, but it just feels meh to me.  I have no explanation off-hand.

You know, I feel the same way. I think it's a holdover from when the Strategist ideas were way more powerful than the Creative and Philosopher. I guess I thought that the Strategist shouldn't get anything too powerful while its already so far ahead. But I've since nerfed a lot of the Strategist's main arsenal and given the other 2 classes plenty to work with, and besides, I agree. Why siege engines? It seems much more fitting for a more warfare-oriented prestige class than a base class, especially since literally none of the Strategist's ideas reference siege engines. Int to saves is boring filler, and of all the class features, only Tried and True had anything to do with idea magic at all. It was indeed all very meh. It was generic and forgettable.

So... (don't be mad)... I overhauled it. I can kick the habit I swear. I can stop overhauling any time I want!

But, uh, yeah, basically all the class features are different now. Mind taking another look?

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 04:52:49 AM by TheGeometer »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2020, 10:28:07 AM »
Overhauling is a perfectly normal response to reviewing, of course I'm not mad.   :P

Strategist Part Two!

I like Selective Idea but 1/day > 2/day > Unlimited/day is a weird progression.  Maybe 1/day > Int Mod/Day > Unlimited?

I'm seeing a lot of limited per day stuff which I personally am not a fan of but the class as a whole looks a lot more interesting now.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2020, 01:28:07 PM »
I changed it from per-day to per-intense-thought (aka per combat, generally). Especially with how short combat gets toward level 20, 2/encounter and unlimited aren't too far apart anyway. And this way there's no need to ration the ability for later encounters. It also indirectly scales with Int mod, like your suggestion Nanshork, since the number of intense thoughts per day depends on your primary modifier.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2020, 04:58:54 PM »
That actually looks way better than my proposal.  You've got a double space after the word use in that class feature now.

On to Feats!

Final thought is odd. 


Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2020, 03:43:28 AM »
That actually looks way better than my proposal.  You've got a double space after the word use in that class feature now.

Fixed now.

Final thought is odd.

How so?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2020, 12:22:39 PM »
Final thought is odd.

How so?

It's only really useful if it can prevent the damage or heal you but there's only one healing idea so those aren't likely scenarios.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2020, 02:45:13 PM »
It's only really useful if it can prevent the damage or heal you but there's only one healing idea so those aren't likely scenarios.

I disagree. An extra action is always useful, especially if your party's getting their asses kicked so much that you've just been knocked out. I wasn't even intending it for use in preventing damage or healing (though that's a decent use of it for sure).

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2020, 04:48:08 PM »
This is D&D. In my experience if you're going below 0 hp it's because you're dead and not knocked out.  :P

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2020, 05:08:05 AM »
Weird. I know the window between -10 and 0 HP is kinda small, but somehow I end up in it a lot.

Anyway, I need to brainstorm ways to tweak it. I'd also like to come up with new [General] feats to replace the siege engine stuff. But in the meantime, we can move on to the idea list.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2020, 11:24:04 AM »
Maybe you're lucky or your DMs fudge rolls for than mine.

Or maybe I'm unlucky.  :lol

Offline Garryl

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2020, 03:48:00 PM »
A quick estimate of the chance of falling into the diehard range is to divide 10 by the average damage dealt by enemies (maximum 100%, obviously). A slightly more accurate way would be to take a weighted average of 10 divided by each possible damage result enemies can deal. For example, a Dire Wolf (1d8+10, with a 1/20 chance to deal double with a crit), has about a 67% chance of dropping a character into the range of 0 to -9 with a sufficiently long series of attacks starting at a random initial hp value.

Example Anydice code:
Code: [Select]
DAMAGE: {1d8+10:19,2d8+20:1}
output [lowest of 1000/(1dDAMAGE) and 100] named "diehard"

Some damage values for reference:
(click to show/hide)

The odds can improve or worsen depending on how your DM plays different monsters with multiple attacks when they drop a character, whether they move on to other combatants immediately, or continue to direct attacks at an unconscious character until they're dead (not an issue for Final Thoughts, as its immediate action activation would interrupt any subsequent attacks, so more of a regular Diehard thing). Also, multiple attacks with different amounts of damage are weird to calculate, although I suspect they'd overall overall improve your chances of landing in the Diehard range; smaller attacks have lower chances of skipping it, and would whittle down your hp more slowly leading to the high damage attacks risking KOing you when you have more hp remaining and thus barely nudging you into the Diehard range.

Of course, that's also ignoring the many other ways of losing hp or dying that make falling into the Diehard range irrelevant, such as death effects, being disabled by spells when it happens, etc.



Since I've already written so much about the topic, here are some thoughts about Final Thought. I'm not a huge fan of these types of feats in general. Getting dropped isn't a common occurrence in my experience, and falling in the Diehard range when that does happen only comes up maybe 60% of the time when it does happen. Using this sort of feat can help win the fight, but it does reduce your odds of surviving the fight sometimes; a creature that drops you unconscious might move on to your allies that still threaten it, but if you're still up and fighting, it's all but guaranteed to stick around to finish you off. Final Thought bucks the trend of Diehard effects somewhat by being more of a Death Throes ability instead, getting one last effect off before you slip into an unthreatening unconsciousness. This lets you disrupt your enemies as you drop, hopefully preventing them from finishing you off while you're so vulnerable, and unlike Diehard, you're not still up and fighting so you're not an overt threat that still needs to be neutralized.

For practical purposes, I'd expect Final Thought to be used more as a last-ditch, reactive life saver than an offensive Death Throes, since it's only usable when you're at death's door rather than when you've irrevocably passed beyond it. By mid levels (the earliest you can even take the feat with its thinker level 8 prerequisite), you have a few ideas that are good for this sort of thing, such as Being and Nothingness, Mindarmor, On Life, Reposition, and even Stinking Cloud, in addition to less effective lower-level variants such as Graceful Dance, Healing Touch, and Take Positions. If you build for it, having redrawn your hand at the end of your previous turn, odds are pretty good that you'll have at least one idea along those lines, probably 85% or so.

A get out of death free card is great to have. Unfortunately, I think it's not reliable enough for what you're paying. You can hit the Diehard range with a relevant defensive idea in hand maybe 50% of the time, which is a little less reliable than I'd like, and it gets worse at higher levels as damage numbers keep rising. It's a more reliable and more powerful version of the Rogue's Defensive Roll in terms of not dying, at least, but that's not saying all that much.

The new version lets it be used regardless of how low below 0 you go, rather than only if you fall into the Diehard range, so it has full Death Throes capability. You probably still want it more for saving your life, rather than getting a bit of vengeance at the end of it, but at least you get a consolation prize if you can't do that by improving the odds for the rest of your party even if you still kick the bucket and die.

As I mentioned, getting dropped isn't a very common occurrence for PCs in my experience (very common for NPCs, though). I'd have trouble justifying a feat on mitigating something that happens to my character maybe a couple of times per campaign when I could instead pick up more proactive abilities that would keep defeat from being a concern in the first place. It's a really good feat for NPCs, though, as it's basically a 50% chance of getting an extra idea off during a fight. I also don't have much experience with higher-level rocket tag combats, where this sort of reactive ability might be all the more necessary to survive, although fights like that would have even greater odds of bypassing the Diehard range and just invalidating the feat entirely, so I doubt it.

Offline TheGeometer

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Re: Thought Magic [magic system, base classes, & feats]
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2020, 01:52:26 PM »
Okay, couldn't think of how to get Final Thought to be worth it, so I scrapped it. Siege Weapon Experience and Siege Weapon Mastery have also been scrapped, because they have nothing to do with this magic system anymore.

New feats added: Flexible Learner [General], Afterthought, Narrow Focus, and Practiced Thinker.