Author Topic: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised  (Read 11558 times)

Offline Wilb

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Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« on: September 12, 2016, 12:25:00 PM »
Ere we go boyz!


Foe Slayer Capstone. Yes, new Ranger is old Ranger...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 12:29:55 PM by Wilb »
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 12:55:23 PM »
They still haven't fixed the problem with the base class that all its features after level 8 are stuff that a multiclass can do better.

The Beast Conclave is much better than the Beast Master.  The companion now gets its own turn fully but loses its multiattack option if it has one.  The ranger can cast a spell without giving up all its damage.  The companion gets reaction attacks when the ranger attacks.  The companion is going to be quite the tank, scaling up its HD with the ranger's and getting ASIs when the ranger does while adding proficiency bonus to everything important and gaining advantage to saving throws while the ranger is in sight.  This archetype kind of has a reason to stay single-classed to keep the companion scaled up properly.  The 8 hour pet replacement is still extremely rough, though the pet shouldn't be dying too often with PC-like HP, proficiency in all saves, and proficiency to AC.

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Offline NumberKruncher

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 01:44:39 PM »
There's gonna be a lot of level 1 ranger dips going on!
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 02:45:58 PM »
It won't be any worse than the number of level 1 cleric and level 1 fighter dips.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 06:13:39 PM »
I guess they realized Ambucasde (sp) was actually useful and decided to update the Ranger without it.

Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 06:30:35 PM »
The Stalker subclass is going to make for very nice nova ambushes. The bonus attack looks like it will stack with Extra Attack and Crossbow Expert, for 4 attacks in the opening round (or 9, if you go Fighter 11/Ranger 3 and action surge), at advantage. Encounter over before it began.

Sounds like something I might have to use on my players.
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 06:43:39 PM »
I guess they realized Ambucasde (sp) was actually useful and decided to update the Ranger without it.

I can already find people saying THIS revision is overpowered and Natural Explorer is the best dip bait ever.

Ambuscade was good but probably was a bit much for a level 1 feature.  It should have been at least level 2 and had a short rest limitation like Action Surge if it wasn't a a level 5+ feature.  WotC really fears the "OVERPOWERED!!!1" crowd when it comes to non-magical things.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 12:45:39 AM »
I'll work out something broken with Beast Conclave soon (probably with a druid dip). I wonder how well you can train an Ape? They've got hands, could wear modified armour, and can throw things..... Probably not as well as I'd like, even with extensive use of Speak to Animals. But, I mean, would you have to even use that? The PC is in control of their pet, so charades might do.

If you have to actually communicate for complex stuff, seems like any dip/race with Telepathy *could* qualify, sort of, for a talky-too big-pet. You can "sort of" communicate without it, but does that qualify as a language?

Don't Giant Elks actually speak a language of some sort? Maybe some other beasts too. There's a list around somewhere. We just need to find something medium sized that "talks"......


Otherwise, it's personal turbo-digger giant badger for the win. Mr Lvl 17 Badger Yeltsin, bring down that wall! Or embankment. Whatever. Burrowing is tricky to rule on for lvl17 beasts with magic buffs.


Things like Humanoid/Beast/Fey favoured enemy "spidey sense" seems like there's a lot to work with too. Maybe for druid summons in a "gotta see 'em all" way, maybe for other stuff too.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 01:05:37 AM by sambojin »

Offline Wilb

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 05:39:47 AM »
I'll work out something broken with Beast Conclave soon (probably with a druid dip). I wonder how well you can train an Ape? They've got hands, could wear modified armour, and can throw things..... Probably not as well as I'd like, even with extensive use of Speak to Animals. But, I mean, would you have to even use that? The PC is in control of their pet, so charades might do.

If you have to actually communicate for complex stuff, seems like any dip/race with Telepathy *could* qualify, sort of, for a talky-too big-pet. You can "sort of" communicate without it, but does that qualify as a language?

Don't Giant Elks actually speak a language of some sort? Maybe some other beasts too. There's a list around somewhere. We just need to find something medium sized that "talks"......


Otherwise, it's personal turbo-digger giant badger for the win. Mr Lvl 17 Badger Yeltsin, bring down that wall! Or embankment. Whatever. Burrowing is tricky to rule on for lvl17 beasts with magic buffs.


Things like Humanoid/Beast/Fey favoured enemy "spidey sense" seems like there's a lot to work with too. Maybe for druid summons in a "gotta see 'em all" way, maybe for other stuff too.

Well, you can improve its int quite a bit with ASIs, so it should be possible, probably...
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 08:50:09 AM »
Apes have higher than normal intelligence for beasts anyway.  If an ogre can learn to swing a club, it's not that unreasonable for an ape of similar intelligence.  Unfortunately that intelligence disqualifies the ape from being a legal target for Beast Bond.

I'll work out something broken with Beast Conclave soon (probably with a druid dip). I wonder how well you can train an Ape? They've got hands, could wear modified armour, and can throw things..... Probably not as well as I'd like, even with extensive use of Speak to Animals. But, I mean, would you have to even use that? The PC is in control of their pet, so charades might do.

Any training of that sort is going to be limited by what a DM will allow since there are no hard rules for training an animal.  Apes in the real world can learn sign language, so swinging a weapon or wearing something can't be too much of a stretch.

While still not an amazing capstone by any stretch, Foe Slayer isn't limited to favored enemies anymore.  Wisdom to an attack roll can potentially cancel the penalty of Sharpshooter.  It might be kinda useful now, even if just about any multiclass is more useful.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 08:54:31 AM by TenaciousJ »
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 04:34:25 PM »
New Ranger 7 with a party's Paladin 6 = probable defenses king.


Not sure how power-creepy this stuff will be, given it's rather lowly start.

FE is +2 damage, +4 at level 6, decent.

NE goes from 1+ Land to All Lands = massive bump.
x2 Prof on Int/Wis checks, subbed out for universal:  You have advantage on initiative rolls.  On your first turn during combat, you have advantage on attack rolls against creatures that have not yet acted ; is also very big.

Spells = the same
Fighting Style = the same.

PA goes from nearly nothing, to very useful.  Could have a party of 5 Rangers covering each type, radar-ing their way around the multiverse.

LS rendered nearly useless by the All Lands and GFE upgrade.
FoF no need for Rogue 2 dips anymore.

HiPS is the difference between a Spell and a Ritual.  Very nice.  Usable now.

Vanish = the same.
Feral Senses = the same.

Foe Slayer upgraded like All Lands.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 07:05:17 PM »
I agree with pretty much all the points listed. It's probably not great as a mono-class, but it's good to dip into or out from. It's overall a better class, but is better good enough? Probably not as a 1->20 build if playing alongside optimised party members.

The init advantage is massive. Plus it comes with potential attack advantage and rough terrain ignore. There's no class that doesn't want that for a 1lvl dip. Mystic was worth it for init advantages, so's the new ranger. Although it's probably not as good as "Also, no surprise ever" tacked onto it.

Speaking of which, 7-8 levels of Dark Stalker, 1 of Mystic and Resilience (Con) would get you some pretty silly saving throw proficiencies. Str, Dex, Wis, Con, and 1 floating mystic proficiency. Plus quite a lot of init/movement shenanigans available as well. Not powerful per-say, but that's still some pretty good saving throws. You could throw in 3 levels of Assassin for stabby death fun-fun if you wanted too. It might double up on a heap of abilities, but it'd probably still be quite good. More Mystic for more initiative later on.


Also, I know the PHB flat-out states what stats you need to multiclass with Ranger. But this is a new Ranger, the Revised Ranger. I know, it's not "Hey, Mystic isn't listed anywhere, although it probably should be Int", but you might be able to wrangle this as an entirely new class with no stat requirements needed. Like Mystic. Probably not, but you could try, just for that sweet init and terrain boost :p
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 08:29:58 PM by sambojin »

Offline Wilb

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2016, 06:33:50 AM »
Apes have higher than normal intelligence for beasts anyway.  If an ogre can learn to swing a club, it's not that unreasonable for an ape of similar intelligence.  Unfortunately that intelligence disqualifies the ape from being a legal target for Beast Bond.

...

While still not an amazing capstone by any stretch, Foe Slayer isn't limited to favored enemies anymore.  Wisdom to an attack roll can potentially cancel the penalty of Sharpshooter.  It might be kinda useful now, even if just about any multiclass is more useful.

Yes, Foe slayer is a bit better, but still too weak for a capstone, as its still limited to once per round (the ranger's turns only).

But why would the intelligence disqualify the Ape from the feature?
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Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 10:32:28 AM »
Beast Bond is a spell in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion, not a class feature.  It disqualifies targets of 4 intelligence or higher, and it's quite a powerful spell for 1st level.
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Offline Wilb

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 10:53:47 AM »
Alright, thanks. Forgive my brainfart...
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Offline zioth

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2016, 09:52:44 AM »
Everything I've seen from Unearthed Arcana annoys me. The PHB is extremely written and well balanced, and the UA stuff is kind of garbage for the most part. The new Ranger is ridiculously front-loaded (a problem the PHB tried to avoid), giving you many of the class's best abilities at level 1. After that, it just kind of meanders around, borrowing abilities from other classes (duplicating abilities is another problem the PHB avoided for the most part). Then there's Beastmaster, which gives you two full PCs to play (a third problem the PHB tried to avoid).


When they released the PHB, WotC should have established an internal set of guidelines for future publications -- "these are the rules we followed when designing the game." There clearly isn't anything like that, because UA is a bunch of under-powered or over-powered classes, which break out of the feel of 5E.

Offline TenaciousJ

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2016, 01:51:01 PM »
Are you not aware that 5e Unearthed Arcana is play-test material?  You're expecting a finished-product level of polish from beta test stuff.  I'm happy we get to see what's in the works instead of blindly waiting for months and years for something to get its final release.

The PHB ranger steals stuff from other classes too, and the ranger as a concept has always had problems with overlapping what other classes do.  Natural Explorer seems to draw the most "OVERPOWERED!" cries and I can say as a former 3.5 DM and a current 5e DM that the feature is at the sweet spot of being really good without being game-breaking.  Rangers need something nice to define them early on, and the only low-level feature you could swap it with that wouldn't be ridiculous at level 1 is fighting style.  Putting fighting style there would be dip-bait too, though less attractive than fighter that also gets another useful feature at 1.  Putting the conclave features at 1 would be more attractive than Natural Explorer considering the damage boosts Hunter and Deep Stalker could provide.

Natural Explorer is the best choice to put there as it gives the class a combat identity right from level 1.  A PHB ranger has no combat identity at level 1 since both features are situational and have little impact on gameplay.
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Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2016, 05:57:47 PM »
NE is fine. It's good, but not too good. Sure, it can be dipped for. But my "sweet init and terrain boost" comment was more tongue in cheek, because some people will see that as all the class is. I don't see it as a negative for a class to be highly dippable, I think of it as a good thing, which opens up "character design space" nicely.

As mentioned, fighter is a great dip and is considered balanced. So is cleric, a class which is more front-loaded with goodies by far, but no-one gets up in arms about it as being just dip-bait. Playing more than 1 PC? You know about druid summoning, and about stuff like animate dead, and familiars, right? Dips? There's a few, all PHB original, all which must have stood out as good 1lvl multiclassing dips during playtesting.

Which kind of makes me think that this is intended design. Some classes are good as 1lvl dips, some 2lvl, some 3lvl. Some are good for all 3, some not. There's some more "pure" classes too, where power comes a bit later, or not dipping is rewarded more highly. Multiple PCs per player are a "thing" with some classes, that is fairly prevalent, to the point that there's clearly defined archetypes for it. So this fits perfectly into those non-existent design "guidelines".


I'm having second thoughts on the longevity of the class as well, or more-so, the expected playtest atmosphere for the class. Exactly how many extra "goodies" does a fighter get after lvl11-13? Or any martial class? Or their 1/3rd caster archetypes? And how many campaigns go for much longer than that anyway? This one gets some combat'y stuff, and gives you level 4 "druidy" spells at lvl13, that aren't really stat reliant. Late, but good. Hope you took Sylvan as a language :)

I'll agree, WotC could be better in this area. But virtually everything they've released as UA class-wise that isn't tacked onto existing classes (domains, 3rd lvl archetypes, etc) has been like this. So I'm thinking this might actually be intended too. Does the class hold up well in early-mid range campaigns? Here's the UA, find out for us, but don't expect a lvl20 adventure out of it. You can pay us for that later......


Looking at the Revised Ranger from a fairly broad overview, it's not bad. It's a 1/2->1/3rd caster (limited spells, regardless of slots) that's reasonable in melee or at range, with some good/relevant early abilities, and some nice 3rd lvl archetype options that stay fairly useful all campaign. They're not uber, but they're nice, and most abilities are far better than simple ribbons. Each one also alters how you'd play the character by a fair bit, and come up in play often enough so that they're useful to have, but aren't auto-improvements for your character.

Compare it to an Eldritch Knight, or an Arcane Trickster. The class certainly compares favourably to them to my mind (ie: is better), for the short or long haul. They're not the most powerful archetypes, but this one is a smidgen better than them, while still having good and varied archetype options. So it's not exactly a bad class overall, it's just not the most powerful one either. And probably very fun to play as, because it comes with a fair bit of RP flavour built into the class as well (much like an EK or AT).

So it's a mid-tier class with a bit of frontloading, in case you want to dip your toes into it, to try it out with established characters. It may actually be slightly higher than mid-tier if compared to other martial classes on a strictly mono-build/no-dip comparison. This isn't exactly a bad thing, and is probably better thought out than some UA material has been. The class is fine, but could use some late-campaign tweaking. I'd almost go so far to say that it's a good class, and a good UA overall.
(I never thought I'd say that).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:52:45 PM by sambojin »

Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2016, 08:10:11 PM »
For a comparison against other classes, in very broad terms:

You're "sort of" a fighter. Not as good or reliable, but you get a bit of magic to play with too. You can get a pseudo-3rd-4th-attack if you miss/get hit by something big/are fighting groups of enemies/attack on the first turn, or can get a few little d8 damage boosts that don't use resources. Not as good as BM stuff, not as random/hitty as Champion, but a bit more magic than an EK. Not as much damage burst, or not AS levels of it, but you can magic up a bit if required. You can actually get a pretty good amount of attacks out of a ranger by lvl11, so you're not lacking there.

Compared to pallies, you've sort of got low level situational smite going all the time. Sort of. Except that you can spread it around a bit, but can't really nova worth squat. Your "mini-smite-spell" lasts a bit longer though. But you don't have any RP baggage, and get some other nice always-on abilities a bit earlier as well. At the very worst for comparison, at lvl9 you can conjure 2 Giant Eagles as flying mounts for you and your party, can possibly talk to them a bit, and bribe them with goodberries. Level 9 flight for an hour, on your heavenly steed, ain't bad "at the click of your fingers" for a class to have. Or you can bring enough horsies for everyone :)

You could sort of "combat cleric". Kind of. Not much healing or group buffing, but a bit more combat power and self buffs. So not really cleric'y at all.

You can do pets. Possibly in ways that I'll work out how to break later. A lot more of a hitty/sturdy pet than a Chainlock, but nowhere near as versatile. Far better than a familiar user though. But nowhere near as good as a Druid summoner (so you're probably slightly more balanced, even though you've got Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings on your spell list. Just not as much or as early).

Dark Stalker is a bit harder to place. Are they like fightier bladelocks? Less stabby rogues? More magical but slightly different monks? I honestly don't know what to compare them to, but they seem pretty reliable. But bugger it, they get Pass without Trace, so they do stealth and have ok saving throws. And they do a bit of fighting too, with their pseudo-3rd-attack on a miss and free extra attack in the first round. Fightier bladelock seems to come the closest. Quite a lot fightier, which is what bladelock needed (even if it's an entirely different class). Probably my favorite of the archetypes. Seems very powerful.


I guess what I'm saying is that they're not as good as other classes that "do a thing". But they can do quite a few things. There is power in versatility and character build choice, so they're not that bad as a mono-build compared to other stuff. But it's the ever present problem of a hybrid character. You can't be as good as the others at their thing, because then you'd be OP. Everyone can dip into anything and hybridize too though. Possibly with more focus and power than a mono-Ranger. Fortunately, you're on an excellent playing field when it comes to dipping as well. There's some really good builds available, and you'll always be an ok'ish fighter with a few toolkit and combat spells to leverage things with, instead of having to dip to get them in the first place.

Rangers can use their spells to boost their combat potential, but they also get decent enough spells that can change/not start/avoid/alter/end combat engagements as well. Not many "fighty, but a bit magical" classes get that. Combat magic, but actually very good utility spells as well. With bugger all stat requirements for them to be useful.
----------------

Dark Stalker 3rd/5th/11th and AS come to mind as a pretty damn viable, bursty and reliable build, with some magic gubbins to boot. Ranger DS (11), Fighter BM (3) might be ungodly powerful for burst and utility. So much utility, while still being good at combat. Lots of ways of levelling it too, all that give you "stuff", with very little waste, regardless of weapon-type used. More Ranger makes you better at utility/casting, and ASIs are very achievable. 6 attacks with AS in the first round, a re-roll/7th attack on a miss, BM dice/Hunter's Mark damage boosting, and a bit of other stuff (FE, NE, good saves, etc) seems pretty comparable to any mainly fighter build for first round dps. Good enough anyway.

You could get 3(6) attacks and AS for first round burst by 7th level with DS(5)/Fighter(2) if you wanted to, and two combat styles with gubbins. Without two weapon fighting, so choose your beat-stick or pointy-object-chucker. There's lots of good stuff in Revised Ranger.

This "new" class doesn't actually seem weak in any way, just not top-tier as a mono-build.
-------

Variant Human with Magical Initiate seems like a gimme for flavour or power. Or GWM to boost the mêlée attacks, or Sharpshooter if you are one.

Bless (for a nice buffy 1/day group boost), Guidance (because you have initiative advantage and attack boosts from it, so get +d4 dex init at all times if possible), and something else (probably Resistance, because people don't realize how f'ing good that cantrip is in actual campaigns) would be favourite for v.human DS w/MI picks.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 03:15:08 AM by sambojin »

Offline sambojin

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Re: Unearthed Arcana: The Ranger, Revised
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2016, 01:25:20 AM »
What other easy/good builds can you come up with? I'd love to see some thoughts on the "new" Ranger, from a minmax'y perspective.

It might not be broken yet. That's our job :)


Hobbits, people slightly larger than them, hide in plain sight, and pass without trace hasn't been mentioned yet. There's heaps.


Was Gandalf actually a very poorly optimized high-level Ranger? So he gave full respect to Aragorn? Who was probably only about level 7 at most.......
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 02:26:19 AM by sambojin »