Author Topic: Divine Metamagic: Heighten, Minimum Caster Levels & Ability Scores for Spells  (Read 8503 times)

Offline Endarire

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Greetings, all!

Let's assume I'm a Human Cloistered Cleric1 who channels positive energy with the feats Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell, and Summon Elemental.  I have 9 daily Turn Undead uses, or enough Turn Undead uses to Heighten a level 1 spell to level 9.  (This feat combo is to fuel the reserve feat Summon Elemental for 9 rounds per use.)

Let's also assume that, for some reason, I want to actually cast a level 1 Cleric spell I've Heightened to spell level 9 via Divine Metamagic: Heighten.  (Also remember that Heighten Spell actually increases the spell level unlike most other metamagics.)

1: What is the minimum amount of WIS I need to cast a level 1 spell Heightened this way?

2: Could I convert this spell to a level 8 cure spell (that is, mass cure critical wounds)?  If so, what is the requisite minimum caster level to cast this converted spell?  (This SRD section is unclear what the minimum caster level would be in this case.)

3: Since I can use DMM: Heighten to meet prereqs to cast divine Cleric spells from levels 0 to 9, does this mean I also get extra spell slots for spells above spell level 1?  If so, what spell slots do I get, and what are the RAW references for such?  What would be the minimum caster level to cast spells from these slots?

Thankee!

Offline SorO_Lost

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1: What is the minimum amount of WIS I need to cast a level 1 spell Heightened this way?
Easy Answer: 11 or 19 and ask your DM. For the most part it seems obvious it'd be a 9th level Spell. But yeah that's a calculated thing, but then again Heighten does bypass Globe of Invulnerability which isn't a calculation either, by then again there is no text saying it changes Ability Scores like GoI, and back and forth and back and forth.

To cheat the question like the Many-Worlds interpretation cheats questions about temporal paradoxes, what you want to do doesn't work anyway. A Cleric is not a Spontaneous Caster and if doesn't know any Spells (and I get how that may be confusing to you). DMM lets you apply a Metamagic to a Spell Known and gives the example of casting a Spell Heightened to 9th level but not Preparing a 9th level Spell which is what the Reserve Feats check.

That being said, Reserve Feats are mostly a low-powered joke anyway and they just don't really fit into a build that's willing & able to use higher stuff like DMM. Persist Cloud of Knives at levels 3~4, and since you're going the DMM route just worship Bane and Persist Mystic Lash.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 06:07:52 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline snakeman830

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He never mentioned Reserve feats, Soro.  That said, Reserve feats only check if you have a suitable spell available to cast.  Heigten spell on a spontaneous caster can work to get a benefit for the highest unused spell slot (but not on Prepared casters, like Cleric).

That said, the answer to #2? You could, provided you can cast an level 8 spell normally (as in, without Heighten).
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline SorO_Lost

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He never mentioned Reserve feats, Soro.
:huh
Let's assume I'm a Human Cloistered Cleric1 who channels positive energy with the feats Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell, and Summon Elemental.  I have 9 daily Turn Undead uses, or enough Turn Undead uses to Heighten a level 1 spell to level 9.  (This feat combo is to fuel the reserve feat Summon Elemental for 9 rounds per use.)

Let's also assume that, for some reason, I want to actually cast a level 1 Cleric spell I've Heightened to spell level 9 via Divine Metamagic: Heighten.  (Also remember that Heighten Spell actually increases the spell level unlike most other metamagics.)

That said, Reserve feats only check if you have a suitable spell available to cast.
I think this month's theme is how you should take a moment to reflect on how just much much trust you place in fan-made websites like d20srd or dndtools and how much content they really don't have.
Quote from: CM37, header for the new Reserve Feat Category
A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day. If the character has more than one appropriate spell prepared and uncast, she gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell; she can't gain multiple benefits, or stack benefits, by preparing more than one appropriate spell.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:00:29 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Garryl

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Greetings, all!

Let's assume I'm a Human Cloistered Cleric1 who channels positive energy with the feats Heighten Spell, Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell, and Summon Elemental.  I have 9 daily Turn Undead uses, or enough Turn Undead uses to Heighten a level 1 spell to level 9.  (This feat combo is to fuel the reserve feat Summon Elemental for 9 rounds per use.)

Let's also assume that, for some reason, I want to actually cast a level 1 Cleric spell I've Heightened to spell level 9 via Divine Metamagic: Heighten.  (Also remember that Heighten Spell actually increases the spell level unlike most other metamagics.)

1: What is the minimum amount of WIS I need to cast a level 1 spell Heightened this way?

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

A DMM Heightened spell upped to level 9 would require a Wisdom of 19.

2: Could I convert this spell to a level 8 cure spell (that is, mass cure critical wounds)?  If so, what is the requisite minimum caster level to cast this converted spell?  (This SRD section is unclear what the minimum caster level would be in this case.)

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

If Divine Metamagic lets you prepare the spell at a higher level, then yes, you would be able to spontaneously cast the cure spell. Divine Metamagic is poorly worded (if you use a pedantic enough reading of the feat, it gets to being just stupid), but I'm pretty sure the consensus is that you only apply it as you are casting the spell. If so, then you would be unable to spontaneously cast spells using the Heightened spell level.

I'm not touching the caster level part. There's enough ambiguity in the wording and the odd interactions we love to deal with here that I can't say.

3: Since I can use DMM: Heighten to meet prereqs to cast divine Cleric spells from levels 0 to 9, does this mean I also get extra spell slots for spells above spell level 1?  If so, what spell slots do I get, and what are the RAW references for such?  What would be the minimum caster level to cast spells from these slots?

Thankee!

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters
In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.

Gaining new levels of bonus spells is dependent on your class level granting you the ability to cast spells of that level, not your character's ability in general. So, no, you wouldn't get bonus spell slots of higher levels with DMM Heighten.

Edit: Sourced the SRD quotes.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 09:55:06 AM by Garryl »

Offline ketaro

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Wouldn't that last quoted rules text, Garryl, prevent this whole trick from working as a 1st level cleric isn't high enough in class levels to cast a spell of 9th level?

After all, even if you have the resources to get a 9th level spell out of this DMM, you still don't have a 9th lvl spell slot to actually cast it, right? Heighten spell, I think, doesn't take your 1st lvl slot and turn it into a 9th lvl slot, it just takes your spell lvl from 1st to 9th; ya still lack a slot to put it in to cast from.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:21:27 PM by ketaro »

Offline snakeman830

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That said, Reserve feats only check if you have a suitable spell available to cast.
I think this month's theme is how you should take a moment to reflect on how just much much trust you place in fan-made websites like d20srd or dndtools and how much content they really don't have.
Quote from: CM37, header for the new Reserve Feat Category
A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day. If the character has more than one appropriate spell prepared and uncast, she gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell; she can't gain multiple benefits, or stack benefits, by preparing more than one appropriate spell.
Funny, as I believe I stated that it works for spontaneous casters, and then specifically stated that Clerics don't work for it (though they concievably could do so with, say, the Touch of Healing reserve feat, since they can usually spontaneously cast appropriate spells, likewise with Druids and Summon Elemental).

And yes, I didn't read the first paragraph of the OP closely enough.  I will own up to that.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:57:51 PM by snakeman830 »
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline linklord231

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After all, even if you have the resources to get a 9th level spell out of this DMM, you still don't have a 9th lvl spell slot to actually cast it, right? Heighten spell, I think, doesn't take your 1st lvl slot and turn it into a 9th lvl slot, it just takes your spell lvl from 1st to 9th; ya still lack a slot to put it in to cast from.

I haven't done enough digging to answer the first question, but I can answer this one.
Divine Metamagic is applied at the time of casting, and the entire point is that you don't increase the spell slot required.  Using DMM: Empower on a spell uses a slot of the spell's normal level, so why should Highten be any different?  When you use DMM: Heighten on a 1st level spell, you're actually casting a 9th level spell out of a 1st level slot. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline ketaro

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..............................................


Okay. Thank you.
I definitely appear to have been missing the entire point of the Divine part of DMM here.

I do feel like my first question has some merit still in it though. :/

Offline Garryl

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Wouldn't that last quoted rules text, Garryl, prevent this whole trick from working as a 1st level cleric isn't high enough in class levels to cast a spell of 9th level?

The last bit is specifically from the rules for bonus spell slots from high ability scores. I seem to have lost the habit of citing my sources properly.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Funny, as I believe I stated that it works for spontaneous casters, and then specifically stated that Clerics don't work for it
I had to go back and reread it but yeah I missed it.

The last bit is specifically from the rules for bonus spell slots from high ability scores. I seem to have lost the habit of citing my sources properly.
Really when you think about it that is pretty much the common theme this month.

Offline ketaro

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True...but that "in addition too" reads like it's reaching beyond the bonus spells rules.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Well you also have an observable required minimum caster level and Complete Arcane establishes that Feat/PrC requirements only check Class or fixed CLs, CAr's note that higher level Spells are impossible for lower level casters to learn, and conceptually before CAr even came out no one treated a Wand as allowing you to enter caster-PrCs anyway to add to that. But it's a troll-loaded debate as very little is directly stated and people love to assign special golden status to their favorite entries to ignore the rest.

Like in a pure vacuum with nothing else guiding you, what does "additional spell slot" mean? You may use the definition of additional added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available to come up with one outcome. But someone else will come along and claim "any level" appearing as a word, clause, or sentence inserted as an explanation or afterthought into a passage that is grammatically complete without it, in writing usually marked off by curved brackets, dashes, or commas. to proclaim the ability to ignore the actual sentence in favor of auto 9ths. Thus the head bashing begins as you are fundamentally arguing with an idiot that clearly won't accept any of the other entries for much of the same reasons either.

But I digress I suppose. Just start with the idea the DM is not going to allow you to have 9th level Spells at level 1 because you found some very shady improperly worded trick you yelled into existence, he is going to allow it because everyone else gets 9ths and you're f**ked or it's banned and arguing the point will get you banned, and going from there will be a lot easier.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 02:54:15 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline ketaro

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Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying, in far far fewer words -_-'

Offline Endarire

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Thanks, all!

Addendum to the original post!

4: If I could spontaneously convert spells into summoning spells (such as with the Player's Handbook II 37 Spontaneous Domain Casting alternative class feature and the Animal Domain, Chaos Domain or another domain that cast summon spells at spell level 8 or 9), would this Summon Elemental feat trick work to let me use the feat Summon Elemental to summon Large Elementals?  Why?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 09:15:42 PM by Endarire »

Offline snakeman830

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In that case, I would say yes, it does work.  The reason why is that you do have a suitable spell available.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline SorO_Lost

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4: If I could spontaneously convert spells into summoning spells
Nope.
Quote from: PHB2 page 37
Benefit: You can convert stored spell energy into the spells of one of your domains. Pick one of your two domains. You can "lose" any prepared spell (other than a domain spell) to cast and spell of the same level or lower on that domain list.
Quote from: CM, also strangely page 37
A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.
"Spontaneous" Domain Casting requires the Spell Preparation process and cannot function without it and does not qualify for the Spontaneous Side of Reserve Feats

As I often have to point out, Wizards do not cast like a Sorcerer at all. They cast Prepared Spells, not the term but literately Prepared Spells. They treat their Spell Slots like containers, filling them with Prepared Spells and casting the Prepared Spells them selves and as intended to by pass their daily limit all they have to do is force a Spell back into a Prepared state. All "Spontaneous" abilities for Wizards, Clerics, and the like act on instantly converting one Prepared Spell into another or in the more rare case reserving a Slot during Preparation to be instantly filled later but it always shares the same point of requiring Spell Preparation.

Spontaneous Casters on the other hand expend Spell Slots them selves marking them used, rather than the Spell as Wizards do, and it's hard written that if you need to use Preparation at all, ie your ACF, then you cannot be called a spontaneous spellcaster.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 11:42:39 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Endarire

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SorO, thanks for the detailed explanation.

5: If I'm instead a Human Conjurer using Metamagic School Focus and Heighten Spell, can I get early access to reserve feats?

Offline linklord231

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... and it's hard written that if you need to use Preparation at all, ie your ACF, then you cannot be called a spontaneous spellcaster.

Is a Sorcerer with the Arcane Preparation feat a Prepared or Spontaneous spellcaster?

More on topic, I feel obliged to mention that a Red Wizard 5 can use Circle Magic to Heighten one of his spells up to 20th level, which is probably the optimal use case for Reserve Feats. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Endarire

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I'm aware of Circle Magic and reserve feats.  I intended this character to go Hathran for Circle Magic.  I wanted to know if what I asked were RAW legal and SorO said no.