Author Topic: Gestalt X = Non-Gestalt Y  (Read 972 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Gestalt X = Non-Gestalt Y
« on: March 22, 2018, 04:44:00 PM »
The symmetric but slightly too weak gestalt 20 loses 5//5 levels:

1   1//1
2   2//1
3   3//2
4   3//3
5   4//4
6   5//4
7   6//5
8   6//6
9   7//7
10  8//7
11  9//8
12  9//9
13 10//10
14 11//10
15 12//11
16 12//12
17 13//13
18 14//13
19 15//14
20 15//15

or shown incrementally:

1  LR
2  L
3  LR
4   R
5  LR
6  L
7  LR
8   R
9  LR
10 L
11 LR
12  R
13 LR
14 L
15 LR
16  R
17 LR
18 L
19 LR
20  R








































The symmetric but slightly too strong gestalt 20 loses 3//4 levels:

1   1//0
2   2//1
3   3//2
4   3//3
5   4//4
6   5//5
7   6//5
8   7//6
9   8//7
10  8//8
11  9//9
12 10//10
13 11//10
14 12//11
15 13//12
16 13//13
17 14//14
18 15//15
19 16//15
20 17//16

or shown incrementally:

1  L
2  LR
3  LR
4   R
5  LR
6  LR
7  L
8  LR
9  LR
10  R
11 LR
12 LR
13 L
14 LR
15 LR
16  R
17 LR
18 LR
19 L
20 LR












































The non-symetric but closest to the mark progession:

Regular      Gestalt
1      1//1
2      2//2
3      3//2
4      4//3
5      4//4
6      5//5
7      6//5
8      7//6
9      7//7
10      8//8
11      9//8
12      10//9
13      10//10
14      11//11
15      12//12
*16      13//13*
17      14//13
18      15//14
19      15//15
20      16//16

* = the sweet spot before the usual casters have 9th level spells













































Someone else's verification. Warning: Long.

Quote from: DavidWL
Background

I think the best way to look at balance is to compare specific builds throughout their range of levels.  I would assert that
1)  Gestalt costs casters the greatest
2)  Gestalt benefits non casters the most
3)  Gestalt should be best balanced for Gish.

1 and 2 are pretty obvious, please let me know if you agree with 3.

If so:

At level 2:

Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1 ~= Gestalt Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal - perhaps very slightly in favor of the Gestalt

At level 5:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2 ~= Gestalt Fighter 4/Sorcerer 4
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 8:
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 3 ~= Gestalt Fighter 6/Sorcerer 6
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal

At level 13
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Eldritch Knight 8 ~= Gestalt Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion:  Roughly equal, but ...

Now it starts to get more complicated as the fact that the gestalt get's lots more special abilities has to be balanced by lower level adjustment. 

If we only did +2 LA, the Gestalt would be equal in almost every way and! have more class abilities.  With +3 LA the gestalt is basically paying +1 LA for 3 bonus feats.  Additionally, the gestalt build isn't that optimal, since a "real" core gestalt would have also dipped in Paladin 2 and/or Barbarian 2 and/or Ranger 2.

At level 18

Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 5/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 15/Sorcerer 15
(click to show/hide)
I think this is roughly equal ... ~4 bonus feats for a caster level.  Perhaps a little strong, but acceptable.

At level 20
Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer 7/Eldritch Knight 10 ~= Gestalt Fighter 17/Sorcerer 17
(click to show/hide)
Conclusion - this is in favor of the Gestalt.   Better BAB, slightly better HP, slightly worse saves, -1 CL, but far better class abilities (~5! bonus feats).  I think +3 LA is not enough.  bumping it to +4.

Conclusion
example:
- from levels 1 - 4 it is +1 LA
- level 5 = +1.5 LA
- from levels 6 - 11 it is +2 LA
- level 12 is +2.5 LA
- from levels 13 - 17 it is +3 LA
- level 18 is + 3.5 LA
- from levels 19 - ... it is +4 LA

If we round down we make the Gestalt stronger relative to a gish, if we round up, we make it weaker relative to a gish.  I'd argue to favor strength (balancing closer to a pure caster).  This also works well, to simplify ...

Easy simplification - Gestalt is +1 LA per 6 levels.

At low levels a gish often trades 1 CL for BAB / proficiences / feats.  (1 CL ~ 1 LA)
At mid levels, there is usually a trade of a 2nd CL for a dual progression class (2 CL ~ 2 LA)
At high levels, there is less of a trade off, but usually the Gestalt starts getting more cool class features (2+ 6 levels of class features per 1 CL)

Do you agree with my method?  (Balancing against a gish vs. against a caster or non-caster)?
Do you agree with my judgments?  (break points for extra LA?)

Thanks,
David