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Gaming Discussion => D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder => Min/Max 3.x => Topic started by: Surreal on November 20, 2011, 03:52:28 PM

Title: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on November 20, 2011, 03:52:28 PM
2018 edit: Here is it on google sheets: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oRFfvHAYSBQ5sy39mmhqQOoRlGIYtWjVfmk3EPu0GqU/edit#gid=0

(https://web.archive.org/web/20160307011824im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image)

(https://web.archive.org/web/20160307011824im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image)

(https://web.archive.org/web/20160307011824im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image)


(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image)

(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image)

(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image)
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on November 20, 2011, 03:52:43 PM
reserved for no reason
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on November 21, 2011, 12:19:52 AM
Heheh. i just put those in the handbook section, too, since someone was asking for that info in the 'ask a question' section. ^^ should i delete them?
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Mister Freeze on November 21, 2011, 12:34:57 AM
Your max HP does change for polymorph and shapechange. 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

"the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

Another reason why it's so stupidly powerful.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on November 21, 2011, 01:34:07 AM
Your max HP does change for polymorph and shapechange. 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

"the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

Another reason why it's so stupidly powerful.

which i believe was later changed by errata, subschool, or the new polymorph rules.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Mister Freeze on November 21, 2011, 01:42:53 AM
Was it?  The entry in the Rules Compendium, just like the similar text in alter self that misled people in the first place, in my mind means that if your hit dice were d4s before, they don't become whatever the monster's racial hit dice are.  'Your hit points don't change' means that you don't look up the monster you change into's hit points, and that becomes your max HP.  It's still based on whatever your con score becomes.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on November 21, 2011, 01:04:56 PM
I don't remember my sources at this point, but I do recall tracking down the most recent rulings that I could find... so I'm pretty sure HP does not change. Besides, by the time you're slinging around Shapechange do you really care about HP?
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on November 21, 2011, 01:10:10 PM
Heheh. i just put those in the handbook section, too, since someone was asking for that info in the 'ask a question' section. ^^ should i delete them?

Either or. Doesn't really matter; as long as the information is out there.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Mister Freeze on November 21, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
I don't remember my sources at this point, but I do recall tracking down the most recent rulings that I could find... so I'm pretty sure HP does not change. Besides, by the time you're slinging around Shapechange do you really care about HP?

While it's true that functionally it doesn't matter, I'm a little skeptical that there was a ruling somewhere that it was reversed.  I've heard that bandied about before, but I've never seen anyone be able to give any sort of citation, so if it does exist I'd appreciate someone being able to show it, because there's probably more useful info there too.  The reason I'm skeptical is because when they revisited (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a) polymorph they specifically said that nothing about it was changing.  There's nothing in the PHB2 (where the poly subschool was introduced) or the Rules Compendium to indicate a change was ever made, either.  They both contain the same language used in the PHB that originally misled people, with no indication that it's supposed to be interpreted a different way than Skip originally clarified in the first link I posted.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on November 21, 2011, 03:29:27 PM
i did a little searching through my wotc website archive (shameless plug - link in sig)... the DMG errata states that polymorphed keep original hit points.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Mister Freeze on November 21, 2011, 04:07:52 PM
That is the exact same language that already existed with regards to hit points, there's no change there.  And again, it's not being read correctly.  As I said before, what you're reading means that you don't look up the monster you change into, and its listed max HP becomes yours.  Your maximum hit points are still based on your own hit dice (as opposed to the monster's racial hit dice) and whatever your con score becomes.  If your con mod changes, your max HP changes.  My position is supported by the fact that the original Skip Williams article I posted is from May of 2004, and the DMG errata is from March of 2004. 

edit: as an additional note, I know this makes polymorph/shapechange even more powerful than they already are, but I don't think giving out the wrong information because it's more fair is the right thing to do. 

Also, for what it's worth, metamorphosis works the same way, and it is correctly listed as changing your HP. 
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on November 21, 2011, 04:52:31 PM
i must have misunderstood the original question.


any chance of having poly-any-obj added to the chart?
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on November 21, 2011, 10:51:55 PM
That is the exact same language that already existed with regards to hit points, there's no change there.  And again, it's not being read correctly.  As I said before, what you're reading means that you don't look up the monster you change into, and its listed max HP becomes yours.  Your maximum hit points are still based on your own hit dice (as opposed to the monster's racial hit dice) and whatever your con score becomes.  If your con mod changes, your max HP changes.  My position is supported by the fact that the original Skip Williams article I posted is from May of 2004, and the DMG errata is from March of 2004. 

edit: as an additional note, I know this makes polymorph/shapechange even more powerful than they already are, but I don't think giving out the wrong information because it's more fair is the right thing to do. 

Also, for what it's worth, metamorphosis works the same way, and it is correctly listed as changing your HP.
Interesting. I can't find the max hp change clause here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Mister Freeze on November 21, 2011, 11:03:54 PM
Oops, I missed that the HP changing clause is in the objects section.  Still, it works the same way, your con changes, so does you max HP. 
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on September 22, 2017, 02:43:21 PM
So this is a long shot, but I was randomly visiting the site and going through some of my old threads. It looks like the images I used to have here are long gone. Do any of the mods know if they are still accessible/recoverable from the old site? Here are the urls...
Code: [Select]
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image

I looked around on my old hard drive but can't seem to find the spreadsheet or image files. They were tables with side by side comparisons of polymorph/wildshape/shapechange for the columns, and in the rows it had stuff like duration, hp, ability scores, types of abilities gained, extra rules, etc etc. it's been so long I don't even remember what was all in it, but it was a good comparison chart and it'd be nice to have again.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: awaken_D_M_golem on September 22, 2017, 04:28:18 PM
Niiice, Sinfire Titan just showed up too (straight from Hurricane Irma or there 'bouts).


the 4th crawl of that thread by wayback, got it :
https://web.archive.org/web/20160307011824/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3479.0


Most of the bg-archive made it over, but perhaps that attachment
#-ing system isn't totally compatible with the new set up ... idk.


Oooo  :o they had to stretch their usual tactics a little to get it :
https://web.archive.org/web/20160324150301im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1312;image

... so if that's the "1312:image" then maybe the 1310 and 1308 work
YES ---> https://web.archive.org/web/20160324151039im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1310;image

and ---> https://web.archive.org/web/20160324161209im_/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ld6s1cht1chclb0uv3bpip7ol1&action=dlattach;topic=3479.0;attach=1308;image


EDIT edit --- oh and there's my old original avatar ... so pretty (sigh) ... those were the days sang archie+edith bunker zombies  :drunk
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Endarire on September 23, 2017, 06:43:25 PM
I uploaded these images (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5j6iD8ffNt7WFJVMVExSmFlQXc) to Google Drive.  They'll stay longer.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on September 27, 2017, 01:48:51 AM
Thanks guys. I linked those webarchive pics to the first post for now (hope it works). Maybe if I remember I'll actually retype or do a proper upload sometime... give me another 5 years  :lmao
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on October 06, 2017, 10:01:13 AM
we're patient. ^^
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nanshork on October 06, 2017, 10:40:38 AM
I could make proper tables for you if you'd like.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: nijineko on October 08, 2017, 05:20:36 PM
I could make proper tables for you if you'd like.

I'd go for it, it'd be handy to be able to copy/paste the bbcode.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on October 11, 2017, 06:07:31 PM
Haha, I totally forgot about the joke I snuck into wildshape...  :lmao
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nanshork on October 11, 2017, 06:37:00 PM
Here are the beginnings of a table.  Obviously the header color can be changed.  Is it worth doing the rest as a table given this sample?





   Alter Self    Polymorph    Shapechange
Type Change    No, and no templates    Yes (Self, Abb, Ani, Dra, Fey, Gia, Hum, MB, MH, Ooz, Pla, Ver) & Sub, NO Incor. or Gas.    All types, also Incorporeal or Gaseous
HD Limit    Max: CL or 5 HD    Max: Self, CL, or 15 HD    Max: CL or 25 HD
Size Limit    Within one size category    Within one size category, no smaller than fine    Fine to collossal
Ability Scores    Unchanged    Change physical    Change physical
HD/BAB/Saves    Unchanged    Base unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchanged    Base unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchanged
Original SU and SLAs    Retain all except those requiring a specific body part    Retain all except those requiring a specific body partl    Lose SU, retain SLAs
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nifft on October 11, 2017, 08:37:51 PM
Here are the beginnings of a table.  Obviously the header color can be changed.  Is it worth doing the rest as a table given this sample?





   Alter Self    Polymorph    Shapechange
Type Change    No, and no templates    Yes (Self, Abb, Ani, Dra, Fey, Gia, Hum, MB, MH, Ooz, Pla, Ver) & Sub, NO Incor. or Gas.    All types, also Incorporeal or Gaseous
HD Limit    Max: CL or 5 HD    Max: Self, CL, or 15 HD    Max: CL or 25 HD
Size Limit    Within one size category    Within one size category, no smaller than fine    Fine to collossal
Ability Scores    Unchanged    Change physical    Change physical
HD/BAB/Saves    Unchanged    Base unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchanged    Base unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchanged
Original SU and SLAs    Retain all except those requiring a specific body part    Retain all except those requiring a specific body partl    Lose SU, retain SLAs

That looks really nice.

 :thumb
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 11, 2017, 10:05:29 PM
That looks really nice.
The really odd spacing is from using multiple spaces and I didn't see any extra spaces in Nifft's code (nice improvement!) but the table still positioned three line breaks lower. The fix was easy, ran a replace on all the extra spaces and wiped over eighty of them.

Quote
Alter SelfPolymorphShapechange
Type ChangeNo, and no templatesYes (Self, Abb, Ani, Dra, Fey, Gia, Hum, MB, MH, Ooz, Pla, Ver) & Sub, NO Incor. or Gas.All types, also Incorporeal or Gaseous
HD LimitMax: CL or 5 HDMax: Self, CL, or 15 HDMax: CL or 25 HD
Size LimitWithin one size categoryWithin one size category, no smaller than fineFine to collossal
Ability ScoresUnchangedChange physicalChange physical
HD/BAB/SavesUnchangedBase unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchangedBase unchanged but saves change due to stats; HP is unchanged
Original SU and SLAsRetain all except those requiring a specific body partRetain all except those requiring a specific body partlLose SU, retain SLAs
Table2 is so fickled.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nanshork on October 11, 2017, 11:50:37 PM
My extra spaces are on purpose, I HATE columns where the text runs into each other.  Which your table has and Nifft's does not.

If I'm making tables, the extra spaces are there.  Always.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 12, 2017, 05:03:30 AM
My extra spaces are on purpose, I HATE columns where the text runs into each other.  Which your table has and Nifft's does not.
Of course my code runs together, it's what the forums want to display it without extra plank spaces or uneven wrapped text.  :eh
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nanshork on October 12, 2017, 10:13:47 AM
My extra spaces are on purpose, I HATE columns where the text runs into each other.  Which your table has and Nifft's does not.
Of course my code runs together, it's what the forums want to display it without extra plank spaces or uneven wrapped text.  :eh

We went over this on the temporary boards.  On any computer I use the extra blank spaces look just fine.  I also don't see an issue with uneven wrapped text, it looks like paragraph indentation.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nifft on October 12, 2017, 11:29:12 AM
and I didn't see any extra spaces in Nifft's code (nice improvement!)
Which your table has and Nifft's does not.

Full disclosure: all I did was quote the table.

Any improvement is 100% accidental.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: SorO_Lost on October 12, 2017, 01:02:46 PM
Full disclosure: all I did was quote the table.
Yeah at some point I got confused on the names.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Nanshork on October 12, 2017, 05:28:32 PM
and I didn't see any extra spaces in Nifft's code (nice improvement!)
Which your table has and Nifft's does not.

Full disclosure: all I did was quote the table.

Any improvement is 100% accidental.

 :lmao
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on February 20, 2018, 11:30:31 PM
If someone wants to through up a google docs for me, I'll dump my version of this that mostly balances these whoppingly imbalanced spells. Shapechange, of course is still OP, which is only a problem if you play with 9th level spells.

I also put mine in delta-format so you can see what you 'gain' by going up to the next most powerful abilitiy.
Title: Re: Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange, Oh My! (comparison charts)
Post by: Surreal on May 03, 2018, 01:11:09 AM
Hey guys, yet another long time no see.

So I was sorting through some old hard drives and wonder-of-wonders I actually found my old polymorph spreadsheet! I've uploaded to google sheets here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oRFfvHAYSBQ5sy39mmhqQOoRlGIYtWjVfmk3EPu0GqU