Author Topic: Hermit base class + Tao Disciplines: The Tao Unleashed!  (Read 32977 times)

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2013, 12:02:19 PM »
Anything left to get through?

Also, considering making the Mind like Water Wu Wei an effect that allows one to enter Trance Mode, say, once per minute or something, whether they are in trance cooldown or not. This would also allow an hermit to benefit from A One-Track Paradise despite not getting any Desire Drive stance.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 12:39:37 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2013, 01:44:28 PM »
Eh; if you intentionally shun the companion school to a class, of course you won't benefit from all the class features. Ways to circumvent that for the ability to negate any no-save effects is a bit overkill. :/

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2013, 03:54:28 PM »
I hadn't made any class ability dependent on a single martial school after my rework. Osle asked for that one ability to require Trance. One should be free to focus on another school than the one available.
After all, it is possible that something similar to Eternal Royal's Border of Life happens, and the default school availability is optionally replaced by another.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 03:57:07 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2013, 07:32:24 PM »
Anything left to get through?

Quite a bit actually, between starting new campaigns and keeping up old ones going I kinda forgot I had said I was going to check back on this.  :blush

Will schedule some D&D time to finish reviewing this in the near future.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2013, 06:58:37 PM »
Ok, first the base class.

I hadn't made any class ability dependent on a single martial school after my rework. Osle asked for that one ability to require Trance. One should be free to focus on another school than the one available.
After all, it is possible that something similar to Eternal Royal's Border of Life happens, and the default school availability is optionally replaced by another.

Except that Trance is the special Desire Dream mechanic. And I believe you had said earlier Hermit was suposed to be the Desire Dream base class, even drawing a parallel to the Nuclear Dragon being the Divine Flame base class.

Transcendental Exorcism-
I don't remember this one the last time I checked. It's also horribly unclear. Does it apply to DR? Regeneration? Holy/Unholy aura? How?

Angel Raiment-What happens if you already have nat armor? And what action is it to bless another?

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space-One re-roll is fine. With a bonus equal to your full class level... No. Even whitout a bonus it would still be pretty nice, as re-rolls whitout need of spending feats or money or anything actually but spend 8 hours in a place are always pretty good to get.

Senkai-
From now on all villains of 12th level or higher are hermits. Why? Because they're completely unlootable. Nyah nyah! And I thinking to myself how they weren't suposed to get too attached to wordly possessions?

Neo Ashen Arm-
You know all that talk about goodness and balance and spiritual cycles and redemption? Just kidding! Irreversibly crush the very souls of your opponents!

Neo True Administrator-It seems to imply you're sending enemies to other planes. Or do they simply get stuck in the plane where they are now?

Hold Harmony Sacred-Extra swift actions is already more than good enough. If you don't think it's good enough for 19th level, swap it with something else on an earlier level, like, say, unlootable personal paradises.

The Transformation of Things-The rest of the party immune to basically everything as long as they can keep the Hermit alive! All fights become a matter of Hermit vs enemies and everybody else are sidekicks. But wait! Order hermit 20 now, and you also get 1/hour Mass Polymorph Any Object! Yes, 24 times per day an unlimited number of targets version of the most broken 8th level spell ever printed(actually better than most 9th level spells)! Completely fair compared to one 9th level spell per day for Shrine Maiden(mass POA laughs even at shapechange), or making others fascinated with Eternal Royal(more flavor than anything else since pretty much everything that matters is immune by now), or some divination and minor buffs with Scholar (Hermit could care if he hadn't been gaining better buffs, several that also apply to allies, much earlier).

Also, I really believe you should change the name of the class. Hermit, by definition, is somebody that likes to stay away from others. Yes the class is overflowing with group buffs.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 07:03:03 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2013, 08:47:35 PM »
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« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 08:55:24 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2013, 08:59:04 PM »
Quote
I very much doubt that it might feel like everyone becomes the hermit's minions. More like it becomes their tank in a very risky strategy. One successful you-just-die effect and everyone's out or insane damage output. Immunities don't matter much seeing how most of your homebrews bypasses them by then and ridiculous damage at that level is a given.

Eh, a lot of his homebrew stuff does bypass immunity, but that's no reason to base the class on the assumption that the immunities will be bypassed. I don't think this happens much in the Touhou stuff, at least, so in a scenario where you have Touhou schools but not the monster classes, then you get a huge balance issue.

Is Kasen even the same type of being as the TD characters?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 09:03:17 PM by Raineh Daze »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2013, 09:05:06 PM »
I did not make this with the assumption that the immunities would be bypassed.
It was just an observation.

A lot of tobhou schools bypass immunities, so I guess there is no cause for worry on that part either.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2013, 01:20:20 PM »
Except that Trance is the special Desire Dream mechanic. And I believe you had said earlier Hermit was suposed to be the Desire Dream base class, even drawing a parallel to the Nuclear Dragon being the Divine Flame base class.
You were the one who asked that no base class should rely on mechanics specific to one discipline, and that the monster classes were an exception. This is no monster class and that was your request. Changing your mind now?
Looking back on older posts, it seemed like we had reached a compromise where the Hermit would be semi-specialized in Desire Drive.

But if this is the only class mechanic left connected to trancing, then it can be solved simply by making it work just X rounds per day while disabling your other auras or something like that.


Transcendental Exorcism-I don't remember this one the last time I checked. It's also horribly unclear. Does it apply to DR? Regeneration? Holy/Unholy aura? How?
Been a while but I imagine that would be the case. If there is a numerical something that applies against evil, it adds to that.
Don't really care about it so I can scratch the thing out if its too complicated or if you don't like it. I think it was mostly meant to go well with Dream Battle's anti-evil effects.
It may be better to just scratch it off, or just make it apply to some specific stuff.

Altough I would say this class is much more suited for a tyrannical overlord than anything else right now, with all the soul crushing, forcing the population around to live in silence in order to get any kind of privacy, and "If I die, I'm taking all my allies down with me MUAHAHAHA!"

Angel Raiment-What happens if you already have nat armor? And what action is it to bless another?
What usually happens when you have two bonuses of the same type. They don't stack.
It is a basic rule so I don't think I should have to specify it. I made the blessing an immediate action.

Heavenly Time and Earthly Space-One re-roll is fine. With a bonus equal to your full class level... No. Even whitout a bonus it would still be pretty nice, as re-rolls whitout need of spending feats or money or anything actually but spend 8 hours in a place are always pretty good to get.
There is already a class level progression in the size of the area, so I agree.
All good there then.


Senkai-From now on all villains of 12th level or higher are hermits. Why? Because they're completely unlootable. Nyah nyah! And I thinking to myself how they weren't suposed to get too attached to wordly possessions?
You already make you villains unlootable. They bang out with all their stuff in a big puff of smoke and leave heart pieces.
We were lucky it dropped its weapon before it died.
You got its ship and treasure stash plus its only magic item (the weapon indeed). What else did you want? Some mundane javelins and some old sweaty mundane armor? :p

Still, I'll comply to the untold request and scratch off that part. Made it feel more like if a dead hermit was by default raised to the state of a deity's favored petitioner, but without a god to answer to or a god's own domain.
Nice. Now supreme holy hermit overlord can't hold the whole population of her country hostage because said country won't spontaneously immolate when the overlord bites it.  :P


Neo Ashen Arm-You know all that talk about goodness and balance and spiritual cycles and redemption? Just kidding! Irreversibly crush the very souls of your opponents!
I won't imply that I understand the logic behind the power. I just know that Kasen can do that to spirits with her immaterial arm, so I put that in.
Maybe it refers to the idea of being able to do something and choosing not to do it, except perhaps in the direst of circumstances, the way some monks practice deadly martial arts but choose to live peacefully.
Well, I'll let that one skip since it only works if you kill them with the arm. Correct?

Neo True Administrator-It seems to imply you're sending enemies to other planes. Or do they simply get stuck in the plane where they are now?
Aye, you're right. We had decided that the standard action could send people within the aura to the ethereal/material plane until they leave the aura. I guess I edited/removed the part about the planeshifting thing and forgot to put it back in. Done now.
No save to resist being sent in the first place?

Hold Harmony Sacred-Extra swift actions is already more than good enough. If you don't think it's good enough for 19th level, swap it with something else on an earlier level, like, say, unlootable personal paradises.
Despite the change in Senkai, I could swap it, sure. I liked the idea of mid-high level hermits being able to expend a village together. I could switch and have it be a super high leveled hermit only power by increasing the Senkai area. It would encourage high level masters to provide for that sanctuary to the lower leveled adepts (as Miko) or enforce a "My spirit has totally transcended to the next state so I guess I'll be living alone now" attitude (as Kasen).
Yeah, bigger area would work. Altough this class ever wanting to be alone is nothing short of an hilarious concept.

The Transformation of Things-The rest of the party immune to basically everything as long as they can keep the Hermit alive! All fights become a matter of Hermit vs enemies and everybody else are sidekicks. But wait! Order hermit 20 now, and you also get 1/hour Mass Polymorph Any Object! Yes, 24 times per day an unlimited number of targets version of the most broken 8th level spell ever printed(actually better than most 9th level spells)! Completely fair compared to one 9th level spell per day for Shrine Maiden(mass POA laughs even at shapechange), or making others fascinated with Eternal Royal(more flavor than anything else since pretty much everything that matters is immune by now), or some divination and minor buffs with Scholar (Hermit could care if he hadn't been gaining better buffs, several that also apply to allies, much earlier).
Talk about a change of heart.
Quote
The Transformation of Things-Pretty strong and original, fiting for 20th level. Would just sugest changing the mass polymorph to fullround action.
Seems I misread it the first time, thinking it was just regular polymorph, instead of PAO.

I very much doubt that it might feel like everyone becomes the hermit's minions. More like it becomes their tank in a very risky strategy. One successful you-just-die effect and everyone's out or insane damage output.
You're just helping my argument. Suddenly, the guy with this class is all that matters. If he dies, the rest of the party goes down with him. Attacking the other players is basically a waste of time unless the enemies have immunity-piercing. Thus, focus fire the hermit, and if he goes down, the other side autowins. The hermit's allies become mere lackeys that die with their master.

Immunities don't matter much seeing how most of your homebrews bypasses them by then and ridiculous damage at that level is a given.
If it is an issue it could instead choose who becomes the heart of the group, with the entire effect ending if the chosen heart leaves the aura. It could even be conveniently outlined by a special particle effect to show everyone who to put a bullseye on.
Great, get in that guy's familiar. Put familiar in your invulnerable pocket.


Can make it a polymorph/baleful polymorph effect instead.
That's better. Still, combined with the above, miles better than anything the other tobhou classes so far get.

Also, I really believe you should change the name of the class. Hermit, by definition, is somebody that likes to stay away from others. Yes the class is overflowing with group buffs.
Touhou Hermits and Taoist Hermits aren't the same as the regular hermit noun.
While some are indeed living alone in the mountains or somesuch, many tend to be altruistic creatures helping communities.
Toubou's Hermits aren't loners by default, mostly living in isolation because: "Their everyday habits really stand out, and people who don't understand the situation will mutter hostilities among themselves, eventually leading the hermits to leave from places where humans live."
Now you're just cherry picking whatever's convenient for you.
-If they become carelessly negligent in the pursuit of bhāvanā, their bodies will immediately decay into ashes
-Unlike celestials, which are poisonous to youkai, hermits are a delicacy to youkai.
-A youkai who consumes a hermit may be promoted to a higher rank or ascend to a higher form.
-Furthermore, if an ordinary animal consumes the flesh of a hermit, they will become a beast.
-As if that weren't enough, hermits are always beset by misfortune, the worst of which is that about once every hundred years, an assassin will come from Hell
-During this time, if they are even a little careless in their pursuit of bhāvanā, and their powers weaken even a little, they will be unable to repel the threat and will fall into Hell.
-From the moment they wake up, they turn towards the sunrise and will recite sutras countless thousands of times, only briefly during the day will they freely go out, as the sun sets, they will once again be engaged in reciting sutras.


So yeah, touhou hermits live alone because they're living monster magnets and simple distractions can them as well, so they need the isolation. Not so much for your class.

Plus Perfect Memento makes zero mentions of hermits being the ultimate group organizers.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 01:24:10 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »
Nice. Now supreme holy hermit overlord can't hold the whole population of her country hostage because said country won't spontaneously immolate when the overlord bites it.  :P
I don't see how it could do that to begin with. >_>

Well, I'll let that one skip since it only works if you kill them with the arm. Correct?
As is written, yes. That's how it seemed to work with Kasen.

No save to resist being sent in the first place?
Not unless it also locks them there. Without the lock they can just leave it and even get back into the aura freely.

Great, get in that guy's familiar. Put familiar in your invulnerable pocket.
Invulnerable pocket?
Feel free to make suggestions, as if you were building the class yourself. I have no attachment to the stuff I make.

Now you're just cherry picking whatever's convenient for you.
Not really. I tried to think of a way to implement all of that without getting overly technical, which is why I made the variant section at the end of the class.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:04:50 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2013, 12:33:13 PM »
Nice. Now supreme holy hermit overlord can't hold the whole population of her country hostage because said country won't spontaneously immolate when the overlord bites it.  :P
I don't see how it could do that to begin with. >_>
I remember the previous version didn't have the "only items holded" clause. Thus if you owned the country and people, they would all burn togheter with you.

No save to resist being sent in the first place?
Not unless it also locks them there. Without the lock they can just leave it and even get back into the aura freely.
Considering that the usual way of traveling between planes is Plane Shift, that is random, that basically means you're auto-removing them from the battle, because even if they make the save, they aren't going to be able to come back to your position in pratical time.

Great, get in that guy's familiar. Put familiar in your invulnerable pocket.
Invulnerable pocket?
Feel free to make suggestions, as if you were building the class yourself. I have no attachment to the stuff I make.
Just remove the whole "overlord's minions fanatism makes them invulnerable as long as their master stands while also making him multiple times tougher, but if he drops, they all commit suicide togheter". You're still gaining immortality that still allows for Ancient Temple, inmediate action maneuvers when at 25% HP and 1/hour mass polymorph+mass Baleful Polymorph.


Now you're just cherry picking whatever's convenient for you.
Not really. I tried to think of a way to implement all of that without getting overly technical, which is why I made the variant section at the end of the class.
I'll admit I hadn't noticed that variant. It's however pretty meaningless as it is now.

The fluff section speaks of balance and peace and stuff, and then the class itself is shredding souls to bits. The Way says "Accept everything just the way it is." and then you go around mass polymorphing everybody around you.  "Do not fear death." but you keep running away from it, and you even point out a good chunk of people entering Hermit are doing it because they don't want to die.

There's just too many discrepancy of fluff and mechanics. Things that could help on that department would be stuff like demanding one of your alignment components to be neutral, and some clause like if you willingly accept a ressurection effect, then you can no longer advance as hermit, and a penalty on saves against [Death] effects (and if you would gain immunity to Death effects, instead you simply don't take the penalty anymore).

Also, super-swift-free-extending  actions are still in. Look, martial boosts are usually balanced because they have pretty short durations.  If you can easily them last twice as long, then that's a pain in the ass to think of all the implications. Free maneuver recovering plus free charges for magic items and free spell repeating already is absurdly good. 

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2013, 12:40:04 PM »
The fluff section speaks of balance and peace and stuff, and then the class itself is shredding souls to bits. The Way says "Accept everything just the way it is." and then you go around mass polymorphing everybody around you.  "Do not fear death." but you keep running away from it, and you even point out a good chunk of people entering Hermit are doing it because they don't want to die.

For that, I think you can blame the Touhou characters themselves. Immortals, immortals everywhere! That, and Kasen may be one of the Four Devas of the mountain which could explain the soul explodey arm, since Suika and Yuugi already have bizarre powers.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2013, 12:51:17 PM »
For that, I think you can blame the Touhou characters themselves. Immortals, immortals everywhere!

Meh, besides the lunarians that drinked the Hourai Elixir, most have their time span measured in "just" centuries. Even ghosts eventually pass on to the next life (Yuyuko being pretty stubborn on that department). Remilia is tecnically immortal, but she demands fresh blood.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2013, 01:02:57 PM »
For that, I think you can blame the Touhou characters themselves. Immortals, immortals everywhere!

Meh, besides the lunarians that drinked the Hourai Elixir, most have their time span measured in "just" centuries. Even ghosts eventually pass on to the next life (Yuyuko being pretty stubborn on that department). Remilia is tecnically immortal, but she demands fresh blood.

Yuuka's age is completely unknown but ancient, Yukari is at least 1200 years old minimum, there's no evidence that Eirin ever drunk the blasted thing, Tewi  is also over a thousand, Rin and Utsuho are far older than is at all reasonable, all magicians are immortal, everyone associated with Byakuren is well over a thousand years old, Ran is just going to get stronger and stronger, the gods just go on and on and on, Tenshi is immortal until a shinigami kills her, neither Eiki nor Komachi are likely to be going away any time soon, fairies don't understand how to stay dead, the Taoists are also immortal, Parsee appears to be from pre-Islam Persia and would therefore be over a thousand...

Most of them have a lifespan measured in 'until I feel like it'.

Sariel, Shinki, and Mima are probably all immortal too, being an angel of death, probably Satan, and vengeful spirit.

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2013, 01:27:26 PM »
Yuuka's age is completely unknown but ancient, Yukari is at least 1200 years old minimum,
And she's considered an old hag by youkai standards. She has to spend most of her time sleeping because she just isn't that energetic anymore.

there's no evidence that Eirin ever drunk the blasted thing, Tewi  is also over a thousand,
Original Yuyuko ending confirms that Eirin did drink the Hourai elixir, since she was a lunarian, she would grow old and die normally on the impure Earth otherwise.

Rin and Utsuho are far older than is at all reasonable,
Still not immortal. They're also in Hell, so not very clear if they even count as alive.

all magicians are immortal,
What? :psyduck
Marisa herself confirms that magician youkai has a limited life span, but since it's considerably bigger than her human life span, they can just take back their books when she dies.

everyone associated with Byakuren is well over a thousand years old,
Meaning half a dozen youkai out of a cult that probably had hundreds if not thousands of members back in her day.

Ran is just going to get stronger and stronger, the gods just go on and on and on,
Good points on the gods, but Ran has until Yukari goes to sleep and doesn't wake up anymore.

Tenshi is immortal until a shinigami kills her,
Before that happens, she'll get the Five Signs of the Dying Deva. That's when the prime of her life ends, and a shinigami will pounce in to finish her off (an act of mercy actually).

neither Eiki nor Komachi are likely to be going away any time soon, fairies don't understand how to stay dead,
The ultimate judge confirms that even fairies eventually die, during her scolding of Cirno.

the Taoists are also immortal, Parsee appears to be from pre-Islam Persia and would therefore be over a thousand...
Last time I checked, Touhou 13 was about ressurecting a Taoist that had died of old age.

Most of them have a lifespan measured in 'until I feel like it'.
Correct for Yuyuko, but for most others, they're tracking their ages. We know that youkai get more lethargic as they get older. There's a judge going around scolding youkai to make ammends while they still have time before the grave.

Sariel, Shinki, and Mima are probably all immortal too, being an angel of death, probably Satan, and vengeful spirit.
Well, we haven't seen much of Mima now have we? Meaning she probably finally found peace and moved on the cycle of rebirth.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 01:30:12 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2013, 01:52:14 PM »
Quote
Original Yuyuko ending confirms that Eirin did drink the Hourai elixir, since she was a lunarian, she would grow old and die normally on the impure Earth otherwise.

Huh, always thought she was targeting Kaguya. Generally played through with Marisa and Alice, though.

Quote
Still not immortal. They're also in Hell, so not very clear if they even count as alive.

Former hell. They most definitely count as alive.

Quote
What? :psyduck
Marisa herself confirms that magician youkai has a limited life span, but since it's considerably bigger than her human life span, they can just take back their books when she dies.

And as evidenced by Byakuren and other materials, there's magic to reduce age. Youkai magicians are basically only going to die when they feel like dying. It's just something that happens.

Quote
Meaning half a dozen youkai out of a cult that probably had hundreds if not thousands of members back in her day.

It seems highly unlikely that there were hundreds of people on a boat that got sealed underground in a geyser.

Quote
Last time I checked, Touhou 13 was about ressurecting a Taoist that had died of old age.

... and who was doing the resurrecting, again? :p

Reading it, Seiga's immortal, and Miko needed resurrecting because of ill health due to experiments, not because of old age. Also, sleeping, not dead.

Quote
Well, we haven't seen much of Mima now have we? Meaning she probably finally found peace and moved on the cycle of rebirth.

I'm more in favour of 'Reimu sealed her. Again.' Because that's far more likely.

Ran's lifecycle isn't tied to Yukari's, I was talking about Kitsune ageing. :p

Anyway, all this has indicated is that youkai don't naturally die. They get killed, they get lazier--but dying of old age? Not really. It's just not something that happens. Even Yuuka still looks completely youthful, for all that she's ancient beyond compare.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2013, 10:28:17 AM »
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 06:55:55 PM by Anomander »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2013, 10:35:07 AM »
... oh, and when discussing immortal characters, I operate on the principle that if the most likely thing to kill them will be a person and their lifespan is theoretically longer than human history, they count.

True immortality, as granted by the Hourai Elixir, is of course a bit rarer. :p

Offline ketaro

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2013, 07:03:05 PM »
Quote
It could be that no one is invincible and merely has everyone sharing everyone's hit points so that everyone suffers equally whenever one does but I question the usefulness of such a thing.

Legion Devils do this to a huge advantage when the ones fighting them don't realize that effect is there.
Plus with a pooled HP, healing one person would technically heal everyone as well, making that a nice advantage there as well.
Just to mention a little of how that could be pretty useful.

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Re: Hermit base class + Desire Drive: The Tao Unleashed!
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2013, 07:38:33 PM »
I'll look those up. Sounds interesting for comparison indeed. For healing it is certainly useful but it isn't too difficult for a single individual to dish out hundreds of damage per round at the higher levels so the strategy certainly has a sharp double edge.

Edit: Gee. You're right. It's about the same thing but more efficient. The rest of their abilities make that system very efficient too, but they are built around it so it is normal. Very deadly in a group for CR3 critters. Nice find.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 07:51:07 PM by Anomander »