Author Topic: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will  (Read 6561 times)

Offline The_Mad_Linguist

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Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« on: January 09, 2012, 08:39:20 PM »
Open for comments.

Offline HeadlessMermaid

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 07:21:28 AM »
First, congrats for a great idea, and thanks for creating the thread. And here are the not-so-few things I wanted to add.

GENERAL WARNINGS FROM EXPERIENCE (rant, but useful)

Playing a ghost character is a very cool, very rewarding, and a potentially maddening experience. Basically, it requires a lot of love from your DM.

(click to show/hide)


Important Advice: Don't get too cocky.

Being a ghost gets you a lot of defenses, but nearly all of them can be bypassed one way or another. Turn Undead is not the only thing you have to fear.

(click to show/hide)


ABOUT THIS HANDBOOK


Ghost Abilities:

(click to show/hide)


Stats:

(click to show/hide)


Feats:

(click to show/hide)


Equipment:

(click to show/hide)


On the subject of changing your Creature Type:

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 08:14:37 AM by HeadlessMermaid »

Offline The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 12:27:42 AM »
The easiest way of dealing with incorporeality and equipment is to stick a handy haversack on your corpse or planeshift it to the ethereal.  Whichtever.  It becomes part of your ghostly equipment then, and can be used in whatever state you're currently occupying.

Put any material plane stuff you want to keep around into the haversack, which has manifested with you as part of your equipment.  The item is now inside the haversack's pocket dimension.  Demanifest.  Withdraw it from the haversack on the ethereal plane. 

Incidentally, this means that a ghost character can serve as a quick and easy 'ethereal taxi', provided you have an item like an enveloping pit to work with.

Problem solved.

Also, the easiest way to look up the incorporeal/ethereal rules is
There, Not There (Part Four) and
There, Not There (Part Five)


As for antimagic fields: remember that you also exist simultaneously on the ethereal plane.  I believe all that happens is that it suppresses your manifestation ability, keeping you off the material plane.


Quote
These feats apply to types like humanoid (elf). Becoming a ghost means you're Undead (augmented humanoid) and not an elf at all. Again, I could be wrong: I'm not sure about RAW because I don't know what's the deal with conflicting races and types, but RAI is obvious here.

Even if you follow RAW (?) blindly, losing the Undead type means losing everything that comes with it. You can't conveniently say "oh, I'll keep my immunities and d12 HD since I'm still dead and all, but you can't turn/rebuke me any more, mwahaha." Who would say that? And what sort of DM would accept that?

Human heritage doesn't specify anything humanoid (elf).  It checks for the humanoid subtype.
'hey, you're part human.  You've been altered in some way, and you may even have changed type.  Maybe you're now a dragon, or an outsider, or hell, even a construct.  But being human is badass.  Humans are badass. 

So you're going to be a humanoid anyway."

The text also explicitly mentions that 'you keep your former traits'.  That's what the feat does.  Look, here's the text
Quote
You are treated as a humanoid with the human-subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case, you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).
You gain 4 additional skill points.
That's exactly what it does.  You can argue that it's overpowered, but the tradeoff is really between 'susceptible to spells that target humanoids' and 'susceptible to turning and undead-targeting effects'.  And turning is dead easy to ignore if you actually care to try.  Shroud of undeath, for example, is a pretty decent duration and lets you ignore the next turn/rebuke attempt.

Quote
there's a Savage Species rule on template stacking which overrides it:
The type pyramid is invalid on several points.
A)It's 3.0 material, and hence is overridden by the 3.5 material on how templates work.
B) Savage species is not the 'primary source' on how templates work.  That would be the monster manual.  Hence, the monster manual rules override it.
C)It's a general rule, and specific texts override general rules.  For instance, the 'incarnate construct' template in savage species itself ignores the 'type pyramid'.
D)The type pyramid isn't even a rule.  It's a guideline on how to adjudicate cases where a half-flesh golem awakened platypus and a half celestial troll get busy while both transformed into dragons
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 12:31:26 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »

Offline HeadlessMermaid

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 02:10:44 AM »
Equipment+Handy Haversack: Good suggestion, and yay if it works! (Then again, this is exactly the sort of ad hoc rulings the DM needs to make. There's no rule that says you can - or can't - put a material object inside an ethereal extra-dimensional space, and what happens when you pull it out again.  :P If a DM didn't allow that, I wouldn't hold it against him.)

Equipment+Plane Shift: The thing is, you normally need Wizard 13 or Cleric 9 to cast Plane Shift. For many builds this comes late, and for others it never comes at all.

There, Not There series: These are good links, they should go straight into the handbook, even if they are suggestions and not RAW. Btw, if I remember correctly, they say somewhere that the Ghost-Touch property shouldn't be abused, specifically the "when beneficial" part.

Anitmagic Field: Yes, you still exist on the ethereal plane, you only wink out of the material. You can't use any Su ability of course (abjurations extend to the ethereal).

Changing your creature type: OK, I'm not gonna argue RAW at all. I'm just saying, I wouldn't ask for such shenanigans as a player and I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Infinite Wishes are also RAW, but no one in his right mind plays like that, except for intentionally silly games. (Not that I'm comparing the two, I'm just saying.) A simple warning "this may not fly with your DM, but ask anyway" would suffice. :)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 02:20:42 AM by HeadlessMermaid »

Offline The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 11:06:45 AM »
I thought I had mentioned that it was a bit of a dirty trick... must have been in a version newer than my text file.

The real question of how to handle extradimensional spaces arises when you've got, say, a portable hole that's on the corpse of a ghost buried in the plane of shadow who's currently hanging around on the ethereal plane and manifested on the material.  There are three different planes that the pocket dimension in the portable hole is linked to.  If you use astral projection, four of them.

Now, let's say the opening is active, and you're inside looking out.  Which of the four planes do you see?


The other way to transfer items to the ethereal is have the wizard cast blink, and just drop it while currently ethereal.  Not fast, and you may have to retry four or five times, but it gets the job done.

Offline NiteCyper

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 09:30:04 PM »
"Whenever you spend an hour reading scrolls of uncertain provenance": 10% chance to "become a ghost for a year and a day".
It's like when I force Sims to achieve what was originally intended to be a negative consequence by having them prep a lethally poisonous meal to kill them to get their memorial to cheese the game by having Sims only having to interact with the tombstone or urn to affect their social relationship with the Sim. The fact that it also results in a ghost is pure coincidence (and maybe a Freudian slip).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 09:40:19 PM by NiteCyper »
What? NiteCyper's post is evolving!

Offline gorfnab

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2012, 07:51:27 PM »
Any ideas on using a Nightstalker (DL:RoA)? It gets you 3 ghost cohorts which can definitely be handy. One would be a Bard, one would be a MotUH, but what would the 3rd one be? Any ideas of how to optimize the Nightstalker class itself?

Offline The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 11:16:36 PM »
Any ideas on using a Nightstalker (DL:RoA)? It gets you 3 ghost cohorts which can definitely be handy. One would be a Bard, one would be a MotUH, but what would the 3rd one be? Any ideas of how to optimize the Nightstalker class itself?
Hmmm... the only version I've seen is the Age of Mortals version, which I haven't touched because, well, Kender.

I think the MotUH up Deathsong makes a lot of sense if you can go necropolitan or similarly become nonliving.  Dealing triple physical damage makes a master of the unseen hand absolutely brutal.  It's a bit unfortunate that it only buffs the ghost who's singing it at the moment, but the will save vs panic will cause the others to flee anyway.

As for the third... Well, haunting ghost's Illusion (su) is an obvious choice for a 'third wheel' character.  Unlimited major images is the type of utility that makes or breaks things. 

Let's say you choose Major Image, Dimension Door, and Malevolence for abilities.  Stick it into a golem, and you now have a teleporting, illusion-projecting golem that can actually *think* and use class abilities.  Combine that with some class that's decent at melee already like a warblade or something, picking physical stats as total dumpstats since they get replaced.  Go out to venerable age, even.  Now you've got a frontliner who can actually pull his own weight.  Heck, even a calzone golem would be decent, once it can benefit from magic items.  That uncapped AC bonus and spell immunity is a nice combo.

Offline gorfnab

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 06:30:34 PM »
Hmmm... the only version I've seen is the Age of Mortals version, which I haven't touched because, well, Kender.
Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon - page 153

It's a full 20 level class that gets 6th level spells at a similar progression to Bard. Spells are mostly Necromancy, Conjuration (Healing), and Divination based. It has Advanced Learning to gain spells from other sources. It has a decent skill list, Trapfinding, Rebuke Undead, and 3 ghost cohorts. It does say under the Races paragraph description of the class that races other than Kender can be Nightstalkers.

I really want to play this class some time as a possible ghosthunter or medium type character.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2012, 08:41:33 PM »
There is a very good ghost guide on the wotc forums here
 It has a lot of content that this guide doesn't have. If you add it in you should probably credit the creator of the guide though.

Edit:  ninjeko ported you guide over too. You may want to ask him to get rid of it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:54:45 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline Bastian

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2012, 05:08:15 PM »
The easiest way of dealing with incorporeality and equipment is to stick a handy haversack on your corpse or planeshift it to the ethereal.  Whichtever.  It becomes part of your ghostly equipment then, and can be used in whatever state you're currently occupying.

Put any material plane stuff you want to keep around into the haversack, which has manifested with you as part of your equipment.  The item is now inside the haversack's pocket dimension.  Demanifest.  Withdraw it from the haversack on the ethereal plane. 

Incidentally, this means that a ghost character can serve as a quick and easy 'ethereal taxi', provided you have an item like an enveloping pit to work with.

Problem solved.
According to Monster Manual III, that isn't necessary. On page 214 it states that any equipment in the possession of an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal until it leave their possession.

Edit: You might want to add a link to the Master of the Unseen Hand handbook (though I can't seem to find it anymore).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 05:17:18 PM by Bastian »

Offline nijineko

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2012, 02:19:18 PM »
however, incorporeal does not mean ethereal. and for the creature to possess it, it must have a ready means of manipulating it first.

so, using the various tricks listed, one can take valid possession of a material object, even keeping said object in ones ghostly pack should likely be considered valid possession. walk through walls, enrich for fun and profit, cause chaos, etc.. however, if the ghost stops manifesting, ie: returns to the ethereal plane, then all the possessed incorporeal-but-not-ethereal-objects drop right there.

adding said object(s) to your corpse's location, however, might get around that.

there are a couple of useful powers and spells that can also aid in getting around this. however, most of them require the "assistance" of another corporeal being (so that the spell/power can target), and they usually strand said "assistance" on the ethereal. which can be great for enemies, but not so much for allies.

Offline TML

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2014, 05:16:50 PM »
Re: The question of taint feats, the text is poorly written, but as far as I can tell both your 'depravity' and 'corruption' are considered to be separate taint scores.

Quote
Taint and Bonus Feats
When a character reaches moderate taint, and again when he reaches severe taint, he gains a bonus feat. This can be any feat for which the character has the prerequisites.
Since taint is cumulative, a character with a feat whose prerequisite is a specific level of taint retains access to that feat even after she acquires enough taint to rise to the next taint level. For example, a sorcerer with the Corrupt Arcana feat (see page 120), which has mild depravity as a prerequisite, still benefits from that feat if her depravity rises to moderate or even severe.
By contrast, falling below the specified taint level for a feat renders that feat inoperative. For example, a character with the Tainted Fury feat (see page 124), which has moderate corruption as a prerequisite, cannot benefit from that feat if his taint falls to mild but regains access to the feat if his corruption later rises to moderate again.

For example, they talk about a 'specific level of taint' for corrupt arcana (Prerequisites:Spontaneous arcane or divine caster, mild
depravity), even though it references your depravity level. 

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2014, 06:06:47 PM »
It is poorly written, but the fact that a specific kind of taint is only referred to in the bonus feats section as 'taint' indicates that you only get 1 'set' of bonus feats. Stacking rules and all. Or maybe not. I don't know.

The type pyramid is invalid on several points.
A)It's 3.0 material, and hence is overridden by the 3.5 material on how templates work.
B) Savage species is not the 'primary source' on how templates work.  That would be the monster manual.  Hence, the monster manual rules override it.
C)It's a general rule, and specific texts override general rules.  For instance, the 'incarnate construct' template in savage species itself ignores the 'type pyramid'.
D)The type pyramid isn't even a rule.  It's a guideline on how to adjudicate cases where a half-flesh golem awakened platypus and a half celestial troll get busy while both transformed into dragons
This is the way most people see it. Soro doesn't, so I'll play devil's advocate (before he starts insulting all our mothers)
A) its 3.25 or early 3.5 since it references 3.5 material "new rules"
B) It changes one specific thing. But then again the swift action is just one of those changed things too.
C) Yes and this is particularly troublesome. Perhaps only things that specifically breach the type pyramid are more specific. Not sure here.
D) Wait does it say somewhere that this is only for breeding type-inheritance?

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2014, 10:31:40 PM »
Ghostwalk sidebar on pg8 basically says the stuff in that book can't be used by MM1 ghosts.

I guess you could use them as a non-MM1 ghost spirit thing
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Offline TML

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 02:07:33 AM »
It is poorly written, but the fact that a specific kind of taint is only referred to in the bonus feats section as 'taint' indicates that you only get 1 'set' of bonus feats. Stacking rules and all. Or maybe not. I don't know.
It's more that 'taint' seems to refer to 'one or the other', and not 'the higher of the two'.


A) Wizards made a list of books, and included the edition label.  Savage species is listed as '3rd edition', not 'v3.5' (compare the label with BoED).  As far as Wizards says, it's 3e.


For the ghostwalk stuff, you'll have to talk to nijineko about that.  My original version of the handbook didn't have it, partly because the mechanics don't blend with other ghost stuff well (super setting-dependent mechanics), and partly because the ghostwalk ghosts kinda aren't very good.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 02:31:13 AM by TML »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Ghost Guide Ghoulishness - Discuss at will
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 07:31:40 AM »
I just pointed it out to make sure the handbook has accurate info :)
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