Author Topic: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)  (Read 3411 times)

Offline Isidoro

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Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« on: November 21, 2015, 12:36:11 PM »
Hi all,
I have to retrofit the following paladin and need a different perspective on what to do next, since I find myself undecided. I hope you can help me sort things out :D

Level 5, variant human, It's the only "tank" we have, so it was built to take punishment, it has two extra talents than expected (DM ruling) but it can't pick extra talents instead of ASIs.

STR 18 (+2 by ASI)
DEX 8
CON 16 (+1 human +1 feat)
INT 8
WIS 10 (+1 +1 by DM reward)
CHA 16 (+1 human)

Magic Initiate (druid) with shillelagh, guidance and goodberry
Heavy Armor Master
Polearm Master

Plate +1, Sentinel shield, Luckstone

It was built to attack with a Lance+Shield while mounted (flavour rather than optimization) and with Quarterstaff+Shield during the standard engagements. Lance stands at 25dpr, shillelagh at 29.5 and basic quarterstaff at 27.5

Since we had no cleric, my goodberry abuse was overlooked upon even after we started using PH errata and SA 1.03. Now we have a cleric (which is a war cleric and not a proper healer but it's still enough for the DM to shut down my racket) and I was asked to forfeit the 70 goodberries I could push to my party and stick to the "legit" 10 OR to swap the feat entirely. I feel that MI has become a subpar choice now, but I need a different perspective to see things through.

So, what I'm left with are these choices:

1) I could stick to Magic Initiate and pick another level 1 druid spell, in order to keep the utility of guidance and shillelagh (which is only 1 extra damage per average, since I'm about to obtain a magic qstaff) so it is really only about guidance and +1 damage and, of course, the extra spell, which is not that major asset giving the choices a druid has.
2) I could replace the feat entirely, which rises more questions than it solves, because I've several feats in my mind, two of those that I must put my hands on, but I'm not sure which one to start from.

a) Sentinel - I didn't pick it already simply because, given how the DM plays, it never felt a necessity.
b) Shield Master - This helps with the DEX ST (since I'm not yet at level 6, where I'll get that awesome aura) and with pushing away a closed in quarters attacker in order to hit it with my Lance afterwards, but this somehow could overlap with polearm master's backhand (where applicable). Still a strong feat to mitigate DEX STs

Other feats worth mentioning are:

c) Durable - we used healing surges since we didn't have a proper healer. Now we have a war cleric but I'm not sure she will heal effectively since she's not life domain. I'm not too much into this feat but could sinergize awesomely with a Periapt of Wound Closure if the DM allows this effect to double after the feat's effect, which could mean 12-20 hp per HD @17 CON
d) Mounted Combatant - we are 3 first liners (paladin, bladelock, monk) so we often have one that can't AD by flanking mediums, so I could AD while mounted, leaving them to flank with each other. It also adds some survivability to my horse, which is nothing major since it's a summon, but still. Ofc this is useless in dungeons where you can't mount (which are all of them apparently, even if there are huge and colossal creatures inside, thanks to DM -.-).
e) Alert - +5 initiative seems pretty nice even if I've already AD on initiative rolls thanks to my shield; not being surprised can be easily achieved by wearing (not necessarily equipping) a weapon of warning (e.g. a dagger) and denying AD to hidden foes can be sweet too.

Rumors say that our DM is going to bestow another feat as quest reward, perhaps at 6th level, perhaps further down the levels, can't say. Still, it's something to be expected, thus it's just a matter of prioritizing which one to pick first :)

I'm quite sure a Dexadin might be a better tank (if only for the Defensive Duelist feat) but I was going for a TinMan kind of tank (if only dorfs could put their hands on a free feat... hmmm). Still, this is what I've to work with :D

I'm more inclined to go with Shield Master rather than Sentinel, this mostly because I'm very weak in the Dex ST department (I'm at +0 only because of the luckstone) but I'm missing a reliable source of reactions (Sentinel is not that reliable with our DM since he attacks other party members very seldom). On the other side, Shield Master will overlap with Polearm Master's backhand, which can be used to prone and push foes as well, given the optional rules listed around p.271 of DMG...

Last but not least, I can replace Sentinel Shield and Luckstone for other uncommon magic items (e.g. weapon of warding instead of sentinel shield and +1 shield instead of luckstone, or periapt of wound closure instead of luckstone ) because they were chosen at the character creation.

Thanks for the collaboration!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 01:43:27 PM by Isidoro »

Offline bruceleeroy

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2015, 06:01:00 PM »
Have you considered Mage Slayer? As you gain levels, magic will become more common and being able to shut down an enemy caster even for 1 round could make the difference in a serious encounter.

That being said, Shield Master will definitely make you tankier.
Normally, I would be reading this, open the reply box, decide what I had to say didn't need said, and close out. But this is just too ridiculous.



Offline Isidoro

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 07:21:56 PM »
Have you considered Mage Slayer? As you gain levels, magic will become more common and being able to shut down an enemy caster even for 1 round could make the difference in a serious encounter.

That being said, Shield Master will definitely make you tankier.

It is definitely in the desiderata, yes, but I'm not going for it right away simply because our DM doesn't play many first liner spellcasters and I feel that over-extending to the second liners is not my role. We have a monk and a bladelock to snap at their casters :)
Perhaps in the future, now I'd rather focus on how to get better at holding the line :D 

Offline Gnomes2169

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2015, 06:00:55 AM »
As a paladin you should be able to leverage Sentinel better than most other classes (since you can smite enemies dumb enough to be in melee and not attacking you). Shield Master is good if you have nothing to do with your bonus action and/ or have a good dex save, however I would recommend getting sentinel first since you can use your bonus action for smite spells in the mean time.
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Offline Isidoro

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2015, 12:50:22 PM »
As a paladin you should be able to leverage Sentinel better than most other classes (since you can smite enemies dumb enough to be in melee and not attacking you). Shield Master is good if you have nothing to do with your bonus action and/ or have a good dex save, however I would recommend getting sentinel first since you can use your bonus action for smite spells in the mean time.

You've made a solid point.

I don't have a strong DEX save and I've plenty to do with my BAs already. Perhaps I'll wait the 6th level when the aura of awesomeness kicks in :)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 05:37:15 PM »
Magic Initiate with Druid stuff, forces Wisdom
as the caster stat for that stuff.  Not a good combo
for a Paladin anyway, and with your DM's nerf
of goodberry, you want to swap out that feat.

Can you stomach a 15 in Con for now, and
take Resilient (Con) after getting Cha 20?
Doing so would allow Dex of 10, making
a fairly big difference.

In-combat healing is 99% a waste of time or worse.
You should be able to buy Healing Potions in a town.

If a party member has a critter, that thing can move
to a downed PC and maybe do a bunch of things:
a) ... untrained heal check
b) ... use a healing kit dose
c) ... pore (sloppily) a potion down the dudes throat
d) ... target of < standard action heal thingy
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Wilb

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 08:40:39 PM »
After the 6th (up to 9th) level, your Heavy Armor master feat will start to feel really lackluster considering the chunks of damage you'll be taking, so, if you could switch it as well, I'd recommend that. Your magic initiate could change to sorcerer or (preferably) warlock, and you could get stuff like Hex and Booming Blade, which would help with both damage and lockdown. If your party has a wizard with Evard's Black Tentacles or similar spell (idk any other spell that uses that mechanic), Hexing a foe's Strength or Dexterity will prove to be almost abusive, provided they fail the initial save, forcing them to roll checks with an ultra low stat or with disadvantage on their good stat...

But I'll always recommend adding Warcaster and the booming blade cantrip to sentinel users, if possible. Adding UA Tunnel Fighter style and Polearm Master to the mix makes it a VERY convincing lockdown dude.
Lovely Zoma...

Offline Gnomes2169

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 09:49:54 PM »
Hex doesn't have a saving throw, so it's actually even better than you're suggesting for trip builds.

Sentinel/ polearm master+booming blade takes Warcaster as well, so if you want all of it together you need 4 feats for the ultimate lockdown build:
-Warcaster
-Magic initiate (warlock): Hex + Booming blade + Any other warlock cantrip
-Sentinel
-Polearm master

I feel I should also point out that the tunnel fighter fighting style only works on opportunity attacks, while sentinel and polearm master are not opportunity attacks (they are attacks that use your reaction that proc off of different triggers than opportunity attacks). Not to say that it isn't an awesome build, multiple booming blades each round on stupid foes is cool and all, but the fighting style doesn't really mesh all too well, and is the least important part of the build.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 09:58:41 PM by Gnomes2169 »
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Offline Wilb

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Re: Need to swap a talent! Would like to know your opinion :)
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2015, 04:46:48 AM »
Hex doesn't have a saving throw, so it's actually even better than you're suggesting for trip builds.

Sentinel/ polearm master+booming blade takes Warcaster as well, so if you want all of it together you need 4 feats for the ultimate lockdown build:
-Warcaster
-Magic initiate (warlock): Hex + Booming blade + Any other warlock cantrip
-Sentinel
-Polearm master

I feel I should also point out that the tunnel fighter fighting style only works on opportunity attacks, while sentinel and polearm master are not opportunity attacks (they are attacks that use your reaction that proc off of different triggers than opportunity attacks). Not to say that it isn't an awesome build, multiple booming blades each round on stupid foes is cool and all, but the fighting style doesn't really mesh all too well, and is the least important part of the build.

I know that they don't mesh perfectly with each other, but this combination makes the tankee become a swiss army knife, if he took the Vengeance oath (he did not name his oath) thus having access to Misty Step. When he blocks a passage or charges toward the enemy forces, they won't be able to take a step without provoking him (even if its not an opportinity attack).
 A single level  of Warlock (UA Posilock) would give him a hefty boost and free an ASI (while pushing his remaining ASI's a level back), possibly allowing him to choose another feat or boost his stats.
Greenflame blade would become a good choice as well in this case, giving + Charisma to his damage, making a Greenflame blade deal 1d8+Cha bonus+his usual attack damage and 1d8+2xCha bonus to a secondary target, making it technically better than his normal attacks given multiple targets, and this is in addition to his gravity-like grip on any enemy in his range.

Isidoro, if your DM really gives you a free feat (not an ASI) fill this list by Gnomes (maybe take a lock level instead of the Magic initiate one) and get Mage slayer after that!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 04:50:52 AM by Wilb »
Lovely Zoma...