Author Topic: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread  (Read 70706 times)

Offline Sohala

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2012, 08:36:40 AM »
So, there is actual xp lost and the xp spent on crafting also cost you gold?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2012, 08:58:35 AM »
So, there is actual xp lost and the xp spent on crafting also cost you gold?

No, you don't pay the xp cost, you pay gold instead.  The gold for xp is just tracked separately from the normal gold cost of the item (and is therefore not subject to additional cost reduction beyond that which reduces xp costs).
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2012, 10:04:47 AM »
No, you don't pay the xp cost, you pay gold instead.  The gold for xp is just tracked separately from the normal gold cost of the item (and is therefore not subject to additional cost reduction beyond that which reduces xp costs).
Which is what I did.

1. To craft the wand it costs 12,000 gold and 960 XP.

2*. Magical Artisan & Extraordinary Artisan reduce gold cost by 25% each, or 12,000 / 2 = 6,000.
Magical Artisan & Legendary Artisan reduce XP costs by 25% each, or 960 / 2 = 480.

3. The XP cost (480) is converted into a gold at the x5 exchange rate, or 480 * 5 = 2,400.

4. Thus the total price is 8,400, or the 6,000gp in raw materials and the 2,400gp for xp.

5. That's the price for a fully charged wand, the price per charge is one fiftieth of that amount, or 8,400 / 50 = 168.
Your total cost subtracted out of WBL for crafting, say a 10 charge wand, is 1,680gp.

6. Final comparison in this example, the 168gp per charge vs the normal 420gp per charge, 168 / 420 = 0.4 or 168 is 40% of 420.

There is no double use of cost reduction, well other than Magical Artisan but it applies to both gold and xp cost obviously. Nor is the gold to xp rate tweaked in any manner. 6,000gp for crafting materials and 480xp is 8,400 when the xp is converted to gold and added to the total price.


*Assumes the two 25%er feats stack together for 50%, if they instead are applied after each other it's 56% or ((100-25%)-25%)=56.25. Either way, huge reduction.

☼Version Note: Magical Artisan was originally 3.0 FR material, the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun reprinted it making it canonical 3.5 FR material.
If only one set of feats were used, without accounting for craftbot's apparent class based cost reduction, it would be 60%, or ((12,000-25%)+((960-25%)*5)) / ((750*4)*7) = 0.6.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2012, 10:12:41 AM »
Oh.  I misunderstood you, then.  Carry on.  :)

(blame tiredness, I was up at 4am)
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Offline Garryl

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2012, 11:25:24 AM »
SorO, your math is off. The normal cost is 480g per charge from a 24000g wand, not 420g. The total cost is 35% of normal, not 40% (that rate actually holds true regardless of the starting numbers of 50g+ items, any lower costs a greater percentage due to rounding).

So, there is actual xp lost and the xp spent on crafting also cost you gold?

No, you don't pay the xp cost, you pay gold instead.  The gold for xp is just tracked separately from the normal gold cost of the item (and is therefore not subject to additional cost reduction beyond that which reduces xp costs).

Normal crafting turns 1 xp into 12.5 gp for every 12.5 real gp actually spent. Under this, you pay 17.5gp per 25gp of items crafted before the game starts, or a 70% of market value for crafted items at the cost of the feats needed to craft.

Or, if you'd prefer:
xp cost = market price/25
gold cost = market price/2
total cost = gold cost + 5*xp cost = market price/2 + market price/5 = 0.7*market price

Any reductions to the gold cost of crafting apply to 5/7 of the final price, and reductions to the xp cost apply to 2/7 of the final price.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:34:40 AM by Garryl »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2012, 01:29:17 PM »
SorO, your math is off. The normal cost is 480g per charge from a 24000g wand, not 420g. The total cost is 35% of normal, not 40%
I skipped totally up the wand anew and used the one on my char sheet, which is off and I'll fix here in a bit >.>

Or, if you'd prefer:
xp cost = market price/25
gold cost = market price/2
total cost = gold cost + 5*xp cost = market price/2 + market price/5 = 0.7*market price

Any reductions to the gold cost of crafting apply to 5/7 of the final price, and reductions to the xp cost apply to 2/7 of the final price.
Does that hold true for different item types? Wands, Scrolls, Enhancing Armor, etc?

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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2012, 01:32:02 PM »
My items are all armor or weapons. So I don't think or friendly neighborhood crafter can make them for me...
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2012, 01:45:33 PM »
My items are all armor or weapons. So I don't think or friendly neighborhood crafter can make them for me...
At the moment we just have a potion brewer, but...

Oh.  I misunderstood you, then.  Carry on.  :)

(blame tiredness, I was up at 4am)
We apparently have the go ahead if someone were to join as the mule. :D

Edit - Maybe Leadership with a human artificer? That's free Brew/Wondrous/Scrolls, five feat slots to pick up the Artisan line and any other two craft related feats, and +2 to his effective crafting level to make up his level loss as a cohort.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:51:50 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline TheAbyssDragon

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2012, 07:06:10 PM »
I can do basic crafting, but alas I don't have all of the nice crafting feats.

I could always dump some of my combat feats (pbs, rapid shot) in favor or more artificer goodness.

Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2012, 09:58:38 PM »
Hey SirP, can Abyss be a martial Artificer and trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat?  That would be cool and flavorful... :plotting

Also, Phae, I have craft (armorsmith) and craft (weaponsmith) and Abyss does have craft magic arms and armour, so if we assume a pregame association then you should be able to take everything at crafted price instead of market price.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2012, 10:02:31 PM »
Hey SirP, can Abyss be a martial Artificer and trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat?  That would be cool and flavorful... :plotting
Would you really want that?  Scrolls are quite useful for an artificer, and incredibly useful for a Blue Mage...
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2012, 10:06:11 PM »
Hey SirP, can Abyss be a martial Artificer and trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat?  That would be cool and flavorful... :plotting

Also, Phae, I have craft (armorsmith) and craft (weaponsmith) and Abyss does have craft magic arms and armour, so if we assume a pregame association then you should be able to take everything at crafted price instead of market price.
And the crowd goes wild!  :clap

We're both from the Dreaming Apothecary, so I don't see why we couldn't be affiliated. I figure I'm an experiment, I'm being donated/sold to the Presidio Arcanum (or hell... let's say that the games are a "test drive"), and you're probably along taking notes on my performance, and making sure I don't go berserk and kill your client...  :D
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 10:08:49 PM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2012, 11:27:21 PM »
Hey SirP, can Abyss be a martial Artificer and trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat?  That would be cool and flavorful... :plotting
Would you really want that?  Scrolls are quite useful for an artificer, and incredibly useful for a Blue Mage...
Not a huge benefit right now actually.

Most of my list is set in stone for the moment. The Charisma boosts, Curse/Waithstrike for disable set up pretty much took up all my known slots. Most of the list will free up as I level. Like Charisma Enhancements will replace Eagle's Splendor, or Wandhilt Waithstrike, even afford a simple Wand of Lesser Restoration. But for now, kind of limited. The concept of breaking WBL is appealing, not just to Min/Maxing abuse, but more money means more wands means free slots for the blue mage adaptability aspect.

Which really begs the question. Just how far can we press things here?
Could I take Leadership(cohort artificer), say instead of an in battle tag along he is a crafter in the guild that always prioritizes any gear I order so they are first done/handled. Since our team has apparently been together for awhile, certainly he could have made them some gear too. Heck maybe Phaedrus could take the feat and call him Master  ;)

Offline TheAbyssDragon

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2012, 09:58:40 PM »
I realized I hadn't listed my class abilities (such as Craft Magic Arms and Armor) on my sheet, so that's been updated. Also, if you'd like to see a more readable build, look here.

If I had to ditch a combat feat, it would probably be TWF so I can use a shield.

Anyway, I don't see any issues creating magic gear for the rest of the party. Zion will have to do any metal/leather work, but I can do the enchanting.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2012, 11:41:00 PM »
OK... while looking over the Breath of Fire discipline, I noticed this line:
Quote
Any creature who has breath weapons and picks up a level of a ToB class may swap one of his availables disciplines for this one.
:love

So... one of the boosts for that class lets you recover your BW 3 rounds faster! So... screw the Recover Breath feat. I'll just trade out Tiger Claw for Breath of Fire.  :D

But... something I just noticed... WHY THE HELL IS EXTRA READIED MANEUVER SWORDSAGE ONLY?  :shakefist
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Offline Zionpopsickle

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2012, 02:14:06 PM »
The martial artificer idea is that Abyss could trade scribe scroll for TWF or PBS and then take one of the artisan feats to save us all 25% of cost (why not cheat WBL if we have an artificer :plotting).

I'd also like to point out just how much like a SWAT team our group is.  I infiltrate and give the go signal, Phae and Sohala kick down the door and play pointmen, Abyss chucks in flashbangs and grenades, SDK snipes stragglers and Soro is in charge of locking down stragglers.  Quick and efficient sweep style combat.

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Offline TheAbyssDragon

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2012, 10:49:29 PM »
"In the Imperium the worst magical offenders are persecuted by the creatures of the Special Tactical Force Unit.  These are their stories"

Next time on Law & Order:STFU.... Doink Doink!
^ epic quote.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2012, 10:28:33 AM »
So... now I have an extra bonus fighter feat to do something with... gained at level 4. With all the material available, it's hard to choose. Right now my progression is:

SG1 Steadfast Determination, Stand Still (flaw1), Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) (flaw2)
SG2
SG3 Combat Reflexes (3)
SG4 ? (b)
Dragonheart Adept 1
SG5 Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (6)
Iron Will (Otyugh's Hole)

What else should I get?


Hmm... what about Mage Slayer? I don't technically have a caster level. I have a spellshaper level. So I don't think the -4 penalty would apply to that, would it? It would be a good feat for my character.

Edit: I guess they are considered Spell-like abilities... and since the feat penalizes the CL for those, it would still hurt me. Crap.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 10:45:08 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2012, 10:44:07 AM »
So... now I have an extra bonus fighter feat to do something with... gained at level 4. With all the material available, it's hard to choose. Right now my progression is:

SG1 Steadfast Determination, Stand Still (flaw1), Martial Study (Crusader's Strike) (flaw2)
SG2
SG3 Combat Reflexes (3)
SG4 ? (b)
Dragonheart Adept 1
SG5 Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (6)
Iron Will (Otyugh's Hole)

What else should I get?


Hmm... what about Mage Slayer? I don't technically have a caster level. I have a spellshaper level. So I don't think the -4 penalty would apply to that, would it? It would be a good feat for my character.

Wouldn't it prevent a mage you're protecting from casting defensively, since you technically threaten them?
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: [Discussion] FFA discussion thread
« Reply #79 on: August 01, 2012, 10:54:39 AM »
Wouldn't it prevent a mage you're protecting from casting defensively, since you technically threaten them?
I don't know... are you required to "threaten" anyone within your reach? Or "allowed" to? I think it would penalize my CL, anyway. So I won't be taking it. I've always disliked Mage Slayer, anyway. It says the caster "knows" that they can't cast defensively, which doesn't make sense, under a lot of conditions. What if I'm invisible, and the caster doesn't even know I'm there? How does he "know" he can't cast defensively? That's just stupid. It also only works against casting defensively, and not if you try to disrupt them using readied actions, etc. Here is the homebrewed feat I replaced it with in my games:

Quote
Spellcasting Harrier [General, Fighter Bonus] (This replaces the Mage Slayer feat.)
Prereq: Combat Reflexes, Spellcraft 3 ranks
Benefit: Due to your special anti-spellcaster training, you know how to interfere with the complex motions of spellcasting to interrupt it. Anyone casting within an area you threaten takes a penalty equal to your Attack Bonus on the DC of their Concentration checks. This includes casting defensively.

Special: Because this requires you to actively jostle the caster around, it will alert them to your presence if they don't know about it, but isn't violent enough to count as an attack for effects such as Invisibility.

Would you allow that?
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