Author Topic: [Discussion] Walk Into A Bar Discussion Thread (Read 18492 times)

Garryl · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2013, 09:58:35 PM »

You don't qualify for Weapon Focus at level 1 either, though (it requires BAB +1).

Concerned Ninja Citizen · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:13:49 PM »

In this situation I would recomend having one of your flaws be something that you aquired after 1st level. The level you go into Monk, in fact. That solves the 1st lv feat issue and is technically legal (and much less abusive that lots of things that are going on in this game.)

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:15:18 PM »

Starting a grapple does require a successful melee attack roll. Once that happens, getting a hold is a touch attack. Once you have a hold, you make a proper grapple check, and if you succeed you deal damage as if you had hit with an unarmed strike.

Weapon Focus looks like it would work for the first two rolls, but not the third since grapple checks are not attack rolls. The feat does say one can choose grappling for the weapon after all. The Ogre's Smash and Grab ability looks like it entirely bypasses those first two rolls though and goes straight to grappling.

And if you're looking at the +0 BAB on the first level in the classes, keep in mind they're actually 3/4. Perce is using the fractional system on this one.

Garryl · « **Reply #23 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:34:05 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on February 25, 2013, 10:15:18 PM

Starting a grapple does require a successful melee attack roll. Once that happens, getting a hold is a touch attack. Once you have a hold, you make a proper grapple check, and if you succeed you deal damage as if you had hit with an unarmed strike.

It's just one attack (the touch attack), not two, before the grapple check.

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on February 25, 2013, 10:15:18 PM

Weapon Focus looks like it would work for the first two rolls, but not the third since grapple checks are not attack rolls. The feat does say one can choose grappling for the weapon after all. The Ogre's Smash and Grab ability looks like it entirely bypasses those first two rolls though and goes straight to grappling.

Why would Smash and Grab let you ignore the touch attack in starting a grapple? All it does is let you attempt it as a free action (instead of replacing an attack) and stop it from provoking an AoO. It's not at all like Improved Grab (which does remove the need for a touch attack), which you may be thinking of.

Quote

And if you're looking at the +0 BAB on the first level in the classes, keep in mind they're actually 3/4. Perce is using the fractional system on this one.

Are you sure? I don't see any mention of fractional BAB in the High Arcana house rules.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #24 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:52:18 PM »

It's covered in the OOC.

As for those attacks.. Yeah, I derped. It's the touch attack, and then it goes into grapple checks. But instead of that touch attack, if a standard melee attack hits then the grapple can be initiated. It is exactly like Improved Grab in that regard, but of course it's called something different because there's also the trip or disarm options too.

Digital · « **Reply #25 on:** February 25, 2013, 10:59:24 PM »

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 25, 2013, 10:13:49 PM

In this situation I would recomend having one of your flaws be something that you aquired after 1st level. The level you go into Monk, in fact. That solves the 1st lv feat issue and is technically legal (and much less abusive that lots of things that are going on in this game.)

If that's legal, then I thank you for the advice. I will put improved grapple on now.

Also, I fixed my unarmed strike damage. Since my punches should deal damage like a gargantuan monk (of level 6, thanks to the belt).

Garryl · « **Reply #26 on:** February 26, 2013, 12:03:58 AM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on February 25, 2013, 10:52:18 PM

It's covered in the OOC.

Sirp, can you add this to the house rules post, please? This seems like a house rule far too significant to risk being forgotten.

Quote

As for those attacks.. Yeah, I derped. It's the touch attack, and then it goes into grapple checks. But instead of that touch attack, if a standard melee attack hits then the grapple can be initiated. It is exactly like Improved Grab in that regard, but of course it's called something different because there's also the trip or disarm options too.

They're almost nothing alike. As this is about the Ogre ability, I figure the Ogre thread is a better place to discuss it.

zook1shoe · « **Reply #27 on:** February 26, 2013, 01:14:34 AM »

I use Attach in a gladiator arena game to bypass some of the troubles of grappling.

Check out the dire weasel and sewerm

Garryl · « **Reply #28 on:** February 26, 2013, 02:04:01 AM »

Quote from: Garryl on February 25, 2013, 09:02:32 PM

Quote from: Digital on February 25, 2013, 08:21:51 PM
Heh. Yeah, captures the essence of what I intend to try pretty well. Grapple everything! Except I wasn't able to take Improved grapple yet, so that's going to wait. In the meantime, I've got Grab & Smash to try and cover.

Why not take Imp Grapple instead of Weapon Focus? I'm not sure what possible benefit it provides, anyways (grapple checks aren't attack rolls).

My mistake. Your grapple modifier actually is an attack bonus, so Weapon Focus would provide its +1 bonus. I guess the Weapon Specialization aspect would apply to the step 3 damage and to the damage your opponent grapple option.

sirpercival · « **Reply #29 on:** February 26, 2013, 08:07:09 AM »

Quote from: Garryl on February 26, 2013, 12:03:58 AM

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on February 25, 2013, 10:52:18 PM
It's covered in the OOC.

Sirp, can you add this to the house rules post, please? This seems like a house rule far too significant to risk being forgotten.

Done; I put it in the Chargen post.

I just use this as a default... I forget that some people don't. Lol.

Concerned Ninja Citizen · « **Reply #30 on:** February 26, 2013, 09:37:12 PM »

Digital, in case you aren't following the discussion on the Ogre thread, the upshot is that it does replace the touch attack and let you start a grapple directly.

Also, with the other two team members both running martial characters, it looks like Larry is not the optimal choice for my character. We've got enough muscle power, something with magic would be a better fit.

Fortunately, I've got a long list of potential characters for this game.

(click to show/hide)

Ghoros Vur-Ghent

Riddled Dragonwrought Desert Kobold, Spellsage 5, Master Reshaper 1

(click to show/hide)

Ghoros was once known as Voraujur. He was a Sorcerer and apprentice Magi known as a precocious student and a favorite of his mentor. His magical talent was as renowned as his force of personality. His future seemed bright until an incident that lit up the Magi gossip mill for some time afterwards. He was taking inventory of a store of arcane knowledge his mentor had aquired when he disappeared, turning up a day later in another archive on the other side of Gratis. What exactly happened to him was a subject of hot debated and complicated conspiracy theories involving anything from a jealous rival, to machinations of the church, to an errant demon. In any case his personality and abilities were radically altered. His talent for magic seemed destroyed and, far from his loud mouthed former self, he was consumed within himself, unwilling to talk or interact with anyone and interested only in scribbling unreadable notes and cutting pieces from books which he then pasted in odd patterns.

Ghoros's condition did not improve and within a few months of his affliction the gossips had moved on to fresher material. Whether from residual good will towards his former star apprentice or a desire to save face, his mentor had him lodged and cared for somewhere he could be quietly forgotten.

All this happened decades ago. Long enough that very few even remember the name Voraujur, much less associate it with the elderly Kobold calling himself "before and after" in draconic. Even so, they are the same creature. Bereft of his spellcasting power and most of his sanity, Ghoros spent decades painstakingly rebuilding his mind. His casting ability is still a ghost of what it was and his powerful Charisma is gone. However, the effort of rebuilding himself sharpened his intellect and he discovered a talent for a more fundamental form of arcane manipulation.

Perhaps all that remains of his old life is ambition. He still desires to excell as an arcanist and rise within the Magi and now he has an additional goal: find out what happened to him and make those responsible pay. His former fame is gone now but an impressive performance in the games will bring it to life once more.

(click to show/hide)

Nytemare3701 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 26, 2013, 09:44:56 PM »

Character Descriptions (All pending DM approval, so I'll delete them if they get shot down)

A Truenamer that deconstructs magic (tweaked spellfire channeler to progress truenaming)
A Blue Mage that eats magic (tweaked spellfire channeler to have Blue Magic progression)
Spellbreaker Gish: Arcane Weapon Master+Abjurant Champion
Pacifist SCM of the Dark God: Refuses to cast direct damage spells on sentient targets, believing the Dark God's will is best served through nonviolent manipulation of others and that the other followers of the Dark God are crude.

Current Team: None.

sirpercival · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:14:21 PM »

Gotta tell ya, I love the truenamer/spellfire channeler version. Let's take two sucky options and make them AWESOME!

You're welcome to dig around and find a truenamer fix you like; I've heard Kellus's is good. Same with Spellfire Channeler... though if I have time (which I won't until Saturday), I can try to write a fix for it.

(Googling found this)

Lightning Fast · « **Reply #33 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:22:00 PM »

CNC, we appreciate your class-switchery. Believe me, you don't want to wait for how long it takes us to make another optimized character for this particular campaign.

Also, that kobold has the highest intelligence score I've ever seen.

Also, Nytemare, wanna join our team? You plus the three of us makes four.

Nytemare3701 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:23:13 PM »

Quote from: sirpercival on February 26, 2013, 10:14:21 PM

Gotta tell ya, I love the truenamer/spellfire channeler version. Let's take two sucky options and make them AWESOME!

You're welcome to dig around and find a truenamer fix you like; I've heard Kellus's is good. Same with Spellfire Channeler... though if I have time (which I won't until Saturday), I can try to write a fix for it.

(Googling found this)

Just replace all the class features of Truenamer with those of SFC. Think of it this way: A truenamer is a halfassed caster with no real class abilities of any worth. A SFC is a bunch of class abilities on the shittiest chassis imaginable. Together they are a class.

@Lightning: Sure.

phaedrusxy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 26, 2013, 11:13:31 PM »

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 26, 2013, 09:37:12 PM

Fortunately, I've got a long list of potential characters for this game.

(click to show/hide)
Ghoros Vur-Ghent

Riddled Dragonwrought Desert Kobold, Spellsage 5, Master Reshaper 1

(click to show/hide)
Racial Modifiers: +2 Dex, +6 Int, -4 Str, -6 Wis
Array: 18,16,16,14,12,10

Str:12-4(Kobold)=8 (-1)
Dex:16+2(Kobold)=18 (+4)
Con:16 (+3)
Int:18+6(Riddled)+3(Age)+1(lv)+2(Item)=30 (+10)
Wis:14-2(Kobold)-4(Riddled)+3(Age)= 11 (+0)
Cha:10+3(Age)=13 (+1)

(click to show/hide)
HD: 6d ( hp)
Saves: F +, R +, W +
AC: 16 (+4 dex +1 size +1 natural) , touch 15, flat-footed 12
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30ft
Senses: 60ft Darkvision
BAB/Grapple: +3/-2
Attacks:
Defenses: +4 on saves vs mind effecting effects,

(click to show/hide)
Desert Kobold
Stat Mods: +2 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Wis
Size: Small
Heat Endurance: +4 to fort saves vs hot weather
Skill Bonus: +2 on Craft (Trapmaking), Survival, and Search checks
Darkvision: 60 ft
Natural Armor Bonus: +1
Natural Weapons: 2 primary claw attacks (1d3+str) and a secondary bite attack (1d3+1/2 str)
Slight Build: Treated as Tiny when beneficial for opposed checks and squeezing, can use Tiny weapons without penalty
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Light and Heavy Pick
Weapon Familiarity: Greatpick (treat as martial)

Riddled Template
Stat Mods: +6 Int, -4 Wis
Subtype: Lawful
Fascinated by Riddles: By succeeding at an opposed knowledge (type the dragon has ranks in) check, an opponent can temporarily fascinate a riddled dragon. The dragon becomes lost in thought and fascinated for 1d10 rounds. A potential or obvious threat breaks the fascination automatically.
Maze Vulnerability: The dragon's fascination with puzzles makes it more susceptible than normal to maze spells. A riddled dragon must succeed at three dc 20 intelligence checks to escape.
Save Bonus: +4 on saves against mind effecting effects

(click to show/hide)
Proficiencies: Simple Weapons,

Detect Magic (Sp): At 2nd level, you gain the ability to detect nearby magic and magical effects. You can use detect magic a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). Your caster level with this ability is equal to your shaper level.

(click to show/hide)
Effortless Reshaping (Ex): As a master reshaper, you dedicate yourself to manipulating the threads of arcane formulae. Starting at 1st level, you can alter formulae with the Reshape Formula feat at will, rather than having to wait 5 rounds after altering a formula before doing so again.

(click to show/hide)
1: Dragonwrought
fl:Reshape Formula
fl:Sculpt Spellshape
3: Heighten Formula
6: Spellshape Focus

Flaws: Noncombatant, Inattentive

Trait:

(click to show/hide)
Concentration:9+3(con)
Knowledges
Arcana:9+10(int)
Dungeoneering:9+10(int)
Local:9+10(int)
Nature:9+10(int)
The Planes:9+10(int)
Spellcraft:9+10(int)

(click to show/hide)
Circles Known
Blustering Gale
Devouring Shadow
Fleeting Image
Perfect Freeze
Roaring Tide
Surging Spirit
Unseen Impetus

Spellshape Attacks

Formulae Known

Formulae Readied

(click to show/hide)
WBL:13,000

(click to show/hide)
Ghoros was once known as Voraujur. He was a Sorcerer and apprentice Magi known as a precocious student and a favorite of his mentor. His magical talent was as renowned as his force of personality. His future seemed bright until an incident that lit up the Magi gossip mill for some time afterwards. He was taking inventory of a store of arcane knowledge his mentor had aquired when he disappeared, turning up a day later in another archive on the other side of Gratis. What exactly happened to him was a subject of hot debated and complicated conspiracy theories involving anything from a jealous rival, to machinations of the church, to an errant demon. In any case his personality and abilities were radically altered. His talent for magic seemed destroyed and, far from his loud mouthed former self, he was consumed within himself, unwilling to talk or interact with anyone and interested only in scribbling unreadable notes and cutting pieces from books which he then pasted in odd patterns.

Ghoros's condition did not improve and within a few months of his affliction the gossips had moved on to fresher material. Whether from residual good will towards his former star apprentice or a desire to save face, his mentor had him lodged and cared for somewhere he could be quietly forgotten.

All this happened decades ago. Long enough that very few even remember the name Voraujur, much less associate it with the elderly Kobold calling himself "before and after" in draconic. Even so, they are the same creature. Bereft of his spellcasting power and most of his sanity, Ghoros spent decades painstakingly rebuilding his mind. His casting ability is still a ghost of what it was and his powerful Charisma is gone. However, the effort of rebuilding himself sharpened his intellect and he discovered a talent for a more fundamental form of arcane manipulation.

Perhaps all that remains of his old life is ambition. He still desires to excell as an arcanist and rise within the Magi and now he has an additional goal: find out what happened to him and make those responsible pay. His former fame is gone now but an impressive performance in the games will bring it to life once more.

(click to show/hide)
Magi
1/2 level: 3
5 ranks Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft: 2
Able to Shape 3rd level Formula: 1
Metamagic Equivalent Feats x3: 3
Total: 9

Young Magus: You are given permission to study in the great Library of the Magi, granting you a +2 bonus to Knowledge: Arcana checks while doing so. You become Apprenticed to your sponsor

I know exactly what you mean...

Concerned Ninja Citizen · « **Reply #36 on:** February 26, 2013, 11:47:41 PM »

Quote from: Lightning Fast on February 26, 2013, 10:22:00 PM

CNC, we appreciate your class-switchery. Believe me, you don't want to wait for how long it takes us to make another optimized character for this particular campaign.

Also, that kobold has the highest intelligence score I've ever seen.

Also, Nytemare, wanna join our team? You plus the three of us makes four.

Ridiculous ability scores are kind of a thing in this game. There's actually a character, on one of the teams who have already started, with a Cha of 40 but I think that includes temporary buffs.

If Nytemare ends up playing the SFC/Truenamer I may end up switching yet again*, since that character would fill the magic user slot but we'd still lack a face/skill monkey type.

I'm toying with a Doppelganger/Greater Doppelganger build for that eventuality.

*This is by no means intended to discourage Nytemare from playing that character. It sounds awesome and I've got so many different concepts I want to explore, which one comes first is not a huge deal.

Nytemare3701 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 27, 2013, 12:16:32 AM »

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 26, 2013, 11:47:41 PM

Ridiculous ability scores are kind of a thing in this game. There's actually a character, on one of the teams who have already started, with a Cha of 40 but I think that includes temporary buffs.

If Nytemare ends up playing the SFC/Truenamer I may end up switching yet again*, since that character would fill the magic user slot but we'd still lack a face/skill monkey type.

I'm toying with a Doppelganger/Greater Doppelganger build for that eventuality.

*This is by no means intended to discourage Nytemare from playing that character. It sounds awesome and I've got so many different concepts I want to explore, which one comes first is not a huge deal.

I doubt this character will live long. He's a caster who doesn't have any of the really good tricks casters get, but gets giant lazors and blanket immunity to any spell he's aware of and wishes to absorb.

@sirpercival: If you accept the hybrid option, I can have a character sheet ready by tomorrow.

Concerned Ninja Citizen · « **Reply #38 on:** February 27, 2013, 01:20:09 AM »

Quote from: Nytemare3701 on February 27, 2013, 12:16:32 AM

I doubt this character will live long. He's a caster who doesn't have any of the really good tricks casters get, but gets giant lazors and blanket immunity to any spell he's aware of and wishes to absorb.

The Kobold Spellsage I posted on the previous page focuses on BFC with sculpted spellshape attacks that will do 4-7d6/8/4 of various kinds of damage + one or two of various save or suck effects in a 20ft or 4 10ft cubes, so pretty reliably hitting the enemies and missing our guys. It can also heal in a similar fashion (or infinitely out of combat) and cover a few other bases depending on the formula I select + two 2nd level or lower sor/wiz spells per day and detect magic at will.

Is that something that will work with your idea or is it more likely to overlap? The Spellsage's skill selections are heavy on the knowledges and that tends to be Truenamer schtick.

Nytemare3701 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 27, 2013, 02:27:37 AM »

Quote from: Concerned Ninja Citizen on February 27, 2013, 01:20:09 AM

Quote from: Nytemare3701 on February 27, 2013, 12:16:32 AM
I doubt this character will live long. He's a caster who doesn't have any of the really good tricks casters get, but gets giant lazors and blanket immunity to any spell he's aware of and wishes to absorb.

The Kobold Spellsage I posted on the previous page focuses on BFC with sculpted spellshape attacks that will do 4-7d6/8/4 of various kinds of damage + one or two of various save or suck effects in a 20ft or 4 10ft cubes, so pretty reliably hitting the enemies and missing our guys. It can also heal in a similar fashion (or infinitely out of combat) and cover a few other bases depending on the formula I select + two 2nd level or lower sor/wiz spells per day and detect magic at will.

Is that something that will work with your idea or is it more likely to overlap? The Spellsage's skill selections are heavy on the knowledges and that tends to be Truenamer schtick.

To be fair, it sounds like your spellsage would be doing my job better than I could, but that's more because I'm combining Suck with Broken Suck to make something that hopefully doesn't suck. If you want to do it, I would probably not be stepping on your toes as much as being the Robin to your Batman. In fact, I can easily tweak Truenaming into a pretty good gish, especially since I can give a big "fuck you" to hostile magic, and Spellfire is based on CON.

On that note...X stat to Y thread time.

As for Knowledge skills...that's DEFINITELY an acceptable redundancy. It gives us another chance in case of failure on something you normally can't attempt twice.

(click to show/hide)

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Author Topic: [Discussion] Walk Into A Bar Discussion Thread (Read 18492 times)