Author Topic: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion  (Read 34143 times)

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2016, 01:22:43 PM »
Because non-lethal damage is a worthwhile and actively supported part of D&D....  :banghead

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2016, 01:27:33 PM »
Because non-lethal damage is a worthwhile and actively supported part of D&D....  :banghead

It's a type of damage, how much more support are you looking for?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2016, 02:20:15 PM »
It uses a different hit point pool, special rules, special conditions, special immunities, and no monster deals it. So, it's not even close to a normal damage type.

When was the last time your PC in any game was attacked by something using non-lethal damage? For me, that's easy - it's never.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2016, 02:52:33 PM »
It uses a different hit point pool, special rules, special conditions, special immunities, and no monster deals it. So, it's not even close to a normal damage type.

When was the last time your PC in any game was attacked by something using non-lethal damage? For me, that's easy - it's never.

It's mostly for environmental hazards (extreme heat/cold, high pressure, brown mold, etc.), exhaustion (forced marches, starvation, etc.) and regeneration. I think the only creatures in core that deal nonlethal damage are Destrachans and Shocker Lizards.

There's a bit more support outside core, though. The Stomp power is nonlethal. The Whelm spell line is all about nonlethal damage. Storm Elementals from MM3 are probably the most widely known sources of nonlethal damage just because they're amazing summons. There are also a few PrCs (mostly either bounty hunter types and exalted fellas) with a focus on nonlethal combat.

Nonlethal damage isn't common by any means, but it's certainly supported.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2016, 03:03:47 PM »
Given the volume of content that applies to normal damage in the rest of D&D, I'd say you just proved my point about it being unsupported. There's more material than that for Truenaming and Mysteries.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2016, 03:34:05 PM »
What I listed was just off the top of my head. There's a fair bit more around.

I'm pretty sure there's more support for nonlethal damage than there is for tripping. Certainly more than there is for overrunning, bull rushing, and disarming.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2016, 04:48:29 PM »
Also, when creating homebrew content I don't really see "there's not much support for it" as a valid argument.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2016, 06:04:17 PM »
Also, when creating homebrew content I don't really see "there's not much support for it" as a valid argument.

So you're suggesting I write a whole extra amount of content for non-lethal?

Because it's entirely valid. I'm working to expand material I've made, not rebuild or acknowledge a random subsystem WotC did a shitty job with.

I'm pretty sure there's more support for nonlethal damage than there is for tripping. Certainly more than there is for overrunning, bull rushing, and disarming.

In terms of feats, there's twice as many (almost exactly) for tripping as for nonlethal. Bullrush about 50% more, and about even for overrun and disarm. Grappling is 300% more. Taken as a whole, there's a vast amount more material for Special Attacks than non-lethal damage, especially once you throw in class features, sub levels, etc.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2016, 06:48:41 PM »
Your response to me doesn't make sense.  I'm saying that changing it from lethal to non-lethal isn't actually any more work for anyone.  Everyone understands how non-lethal works, no rebuilding of the subdual damage system is needed.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2016, 06:51:07 PM »
Which neatly ignores my contention that non-lethal is a rubbish idea that shouldn't exist in D&D, and merely serves to complicate matters without improving anything. Which is why nothing of mine uses it.

Until you can show me otherwise, I'll never be using it in any of my content.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2016, 06:53:46 PM »
I see the ability of characters to knock people unconscious and take prisoners to be a pretty damn important thing.

The fact that you think the concept is rubbish boggles my mind.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2016, 07:00:35 PM »
Because the way D&D does it, hitting someone over the head with a very special type of mace hurts them in a unique way. And there's thousands of ways to take prisoners in D&D that don't involve non-lethal damage. And usually wouldn't anyway, because it's a crap option compared to conditions like dazed, stunned, cowering, nauseated, paralyzed, immobilized, etc. etc. All of which are available from level 1 onward.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2016, 07:03:34 PM »
Because the way D&D does it, hitting someone over the head with a very special type of mace hurts them in a unique way. And there's thousands of ways to take prisoners in D&D that don't involve non-lethal damage. And usually wouldn't anyway, because it's a crap option compared to conditions like dazed, stunned, cowering, nauseated, paralyzed, immobilized, etc. etc. All of which are available from level 1 onward.

Except everyone can deal non-lethal damage with any weapon (with an attack penalty).  Also, almost all options you listed aren't available to the mundanes.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2016, 06:21:42 AM »
You mean those classes without access to fusillades or spells that don't exist anywhere in Arhosa?

And given the attack penalty, PCs are strictly better off beating the target down using normal attacks, and then patching it up when it's bleeding and unconscious between 0 and -10.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2016, 12:22:55 PM »
And given the attack penalty, PCs are strictly better off beating the target down using normal attacks, and then patching it up when it's bleeding and unconscious between 0 and -10.

Yes, because hoping you don't do too much damage is a valid tactic.   :rolleyes

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #115 on: March 07, 2017, 03:14:31 PM »
The question then becomes is Osteomancy a system you want to have in Arhosa or is just a system you came up with that happens to be filed in your Arhosa stuff?  It's the only thing that uses normal casting that you have in this sub-board.

That question should probably be asked to all of your Magic Systems in the Index.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #116 on: March 07, 2017, 03:28:33 PM »
Of all of the existing ones, Osteomancy is the one that's utilized the least in the flavor text of Arhosa. Rituals, Runes, Necromantic, Spellsong, Threshold, and Fleshgrafting are all intimately tied to given deities in both flavor and mechanics. Indeed, the central conflict of the setting is Rituals against Necromantic.

Thematically, Osteomancy is supposed to the magic of the village shaman, wary of outsiders and conducted via rituals and fetishes. So there's certainly room for it in Arhosa as a less cruel way to access Drancedigaeth's (Death) gifts - especially as Ritual magic alone doesn't necessarily give the Death god the scope of worship he needs for his conflict with Lledrith (Magic, Undeath). Whether the mechanics are there to give the thematic needs backing is a relevant question.

The short answer is that it fits into Arhosa, but I haven't done the work necessary to really smooth over all the rough edges of the setting flavor, and it's the system that suffers the most.


Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #118 on: March 07, 2017, 03:49:58 PM »
Realistically, Osteomancy is suffering because it doesn't strike me as "exciting" as say, Necromantic or Rituals from a flavor perspective.

What could theoretically be done is rebuild Osteomancy as a series of rituals that allow the class to cast X spells per day or is otherwise based on rituals. Like so:

Visions and Rumours
Level: Osteomancer 3
Ritual Duration: 1 day/sacrificial hit dice
Range: Personal
Saving Throw: None

The ritual-wielder feels his body infuse itself with knowledge. He gains the ability to cast Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, or Detect Undead once per day per hit dice of the sacrifice. He gains the ability to cast Augury, Arcane Eye, or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance once per day per three hit dice of the sacrifice. He gains the ability to cast Divination or Commune with Nature once per day per five hit dice of the sacrifice. He gets the ability to cast Foresight once per day per nine hit dice of the sacrifice. If the sacrifice does not have enough hit dice (for example only four hit dice), the ritual-wielder cannot use any abilities that require more hit dice.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Osteomancy Index and General Discussion
« Reply #119 on: March 07, 2017, 04:01:39 PM »
I was thinking of having it use seeds because it's already got a point based casting system.  Also Fritjof made me displeased with rituals, at low levels anway...

Ohhh, you could turn the Osteomancer into a prepared Seed caster.


Okay, here me out.

Currently the Osteomancer has a specified spell list.  Replace that with a specified seed list, still call it Ossiens.

The Osteomancer still has to attune harvested bones and organs, but instead of attuning it to a specific spell you attune it to a specific seed/seed combination with a pre-specified cost.  Hell, since the cost is pre-specified you could also pre-specify what all the targeting/duration/etc options are as well.