Author Topic: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time  (Read 3229 times)

Offline linklord231

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Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« on: October 11, 2016, 03:35:44 AM »
If someone is casting a spell with a casting time longer than a Standard Action, can somebody come up after the spell has been started but before it finishes and counterspell it?  Does the answer change if you use Dispel Magic instead of the same spell the other guy is using?

For example, the BBEG is casting Legend Lore to find out something you don't want him to know.  Sometime during the 2d6 weeks casting time, you bust in his door to stop him.  For some reason you can't get to him in order to use one of the myriad other ways to force him to stop the spell (such as by punching him in the nose or whatever).  Can your party spellcaster try to Counterspell the spell in progress?
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 10:20:36 AM »
This is a tough one.

(1) For basic counterspelling (unsure about counterspelling modified by feats/classes/etc.) You must use a ready action.
(2) You can only ready action a standard action, a move action, or a free action
(3) Therefore, you could not ready an action for a like-spell to like-spell counterspell that takes longer than a standard action. At least not without somehow modifying the casting time down to a standard/move/free action.   

(*) As to using a Dispel Magic spell I think that would alleviate the ready action limitation.

But now we still need to know at what precise point of casting a spell can you counterspell a spell with a casting time longer than a standard action. Do you need to only counterspell at the beginning of casting? Ending? Either? All of it?

As a DM I like the cinematic fun of being able to interrupt a spell at any point before it has been resolved.

The Rules of the Game article seems to imply this in this paragraph:
Quote
The rules don't specifically say so, but you can use a dispel magic or greater dispel magic spell to counter any spell, even a spell that normally isn't subject to dispelling. For example, you could use a dispel magic spell to counter another character's wall of force spell. This works because when you use a counterspell, you're catching and disrupting the spell before it actually has any results.


So yes at my table, I would rule that you could interrupt a spell with a casting time longer than a standard action as long as you follow the general rules for counterspelling and you do so before the spell is finished or has any results. As always, I could have my mind changed if someone would point out something I'm missing.   


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Necro
   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 09:10:20 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2016, 02:59:00 PM »
If someone is casting a spell with a casting time longer than a Standard Action, can somebody come up after the spell has been started but before it finishes and counterspell it?  Does the answer change if you use Dispel Magic instead of the same spell the other guy is using?

For example, the BBEG is casting Legend Lore to find out something you don't want him to know.  Sometime during the 2d6 weeks casting time, you bust in his door to stop him.  For some reason you can't get to him in order to use one of the myriad other ways to force him to stop the spell (such as by punching him in the nose or whatever).  Can your party spellcaster try to Counterspell the spell in progress?
The answer is "no" for using Legend Lore to counter it, but the other ways of countering the spell would work just fine. In terms of RAW, Necro is right that it says you can only ready standard, move, or free actions. In terms of RAI it is a bit more complicated, because one might say the RAW simply did not take this sort of corner case into account: readying is about reacting, and couldn't someone react to a slow activity by initiating another slow activity?

The answer is that, even if one follows that logic, it is too late to start countering a long-casting-time spell with a similarly long-casting-time spell if you barged in after he'd already started. A readied action normally occurs before the action you're trying to prevent. For example, if Black Spy is in a hostage negotiation with White Spy, Black Spy might ready an action to counterspell, and as soon as he sees White Spy beginning the first motions of summon bomb, he counters White Spy's summon bomb spell with another summon bomb spell. If Black Spy started casting his counterspell halfway through White Spy's attempt to summon a bomb, his counterspell would come too late.

Dispel magic is a different matter, as is improved counterspell or a spell specifically designated as countering that spell. Since these can be completed before the enemy will complete his multi-round spell, he will counter the spell just fine.

Postscript: with a variable (2d6 week) casting time, it is arguable that you have a chance of casting Legend Lore faster than the enemy casts Legend Lore (for example, you can roll a 2 and he rolls a 6). Though un-RAW, I would allow it, though I would consider you awfully silly for doing so when you could just go home, take a nap, prepare new spells, and do something more sensible than that.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2016, 05:42:26 PM »
Counterspelling rules actually don't seem to care about casting times.

Quote from: Rules Compendium pg 36
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing ready as your standard action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. You can still take a move action of some sort, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counter spell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check doesn’t require using an action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these tasks.
To complete the process, you must then cast the correct spell. A spell can counter only another spell of the same name. If you’re able to cast such a spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells negate each other with no other results.

In fact, because metamagic does not affect counterspelling rules, you could use a readied standard action to counterspell a quickened spell using a non-quickened version of it.  This lends further credence to the idea that counterspelling doesn't care about casting times.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2016, 04:56:06 AM »
This is a tough one.

(1) For basic counterspelling (unsure about counterspelling modified by feats/classes/etc.) You must use a ready action.
(2) You can only ready action a standard action, a move action, or a free action
(3) Therefore, you could not ready an action for a like-spell to like-spell counterspell that takes longer than a standard action. At least not without somehow modifying the casting time down to a standard/move/free action.   

"Readying to Counterspell" is a subset of the Ready action, and follows special rules.  Rather than readying a Standard, Move, or Free Action, you use your Standard action to Ready Action to Counterspell.  This always takes a Standard action, regardless of how long the spell's casting time is - you could use this to Counterspell someone's Summon Monster spell, despite Summon Monster having a 1 Round casting time. 

The book notes that "often [you would use] the trigger 'if she starts casting a spell'" but makes no mention of what to do if you set a trigger other than that, such as "if she continues to cast a spell. 
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Offline Maelphaxerazz

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2016, 11:00:41 PM »
Fair enough, I was wrong by my first assessment. In that case, it should work just fine no matter what counterspelling method you use: you can counter the Impenetrable Legend Lore Caster any time during the 2d6 weeks. You're readying to react to whether he "tries to cast a spell", so if he's still trying, you're fine.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 12:28:50 AM »
This is a tough one.

(1) For basic counterspelling (unsure about counterspelling modified by feats/classes/etc.) You must use a ready action.
(2) You can only ready action a standard action, a move action, or a free action
(3) Therefore, you could not ready an action for a like-spell to like-spell counterspell that takes longer than a standard action. At least not without somehow modifying the casting time down to a standard/move/free action.   

"Readying to Counterspell" is a subset of the Ready action, and follows special rules.  Rather than readying a Standard, Move, or Free Action, you use your Standard action to Ready Action to Counterspell.  This always takes a Standard action, regardless of how long the spell's casting time is - you could use this to Counterspell someone's Summon Monster spell, despite Summon Monster having a 1 Round casting time. 
Yeah, I see how you get there. They kept stressing how you must be properly able to cast the spell and that to resolve things you actually cast the spell, albeit by "altering it slightly," which made me want to go to requiring the actual duration of the spell. But once you see counterspelling as a subset of that ready action, I get it. You're right that does make sense. It would have been nice to see the duration issue explicitly addressed. Something saying that regardless of the spells actual duration counterspelling with a spell takes a standard action ... or something like that.



The book notes that "often [you would use] the trigger 'if she starts casting a spell'" but makes no mention of what to do if you set a trigger other than that, such as "if she continues to cast a spell.
I cannot find "often [you would use] the trigger 'if she starts casting a spell'" on either page 36 of the rules compendium or the counterspelling section of the PHB pg 170, where is that? I do see in both places, "You do this by choosing ready as your standard action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell." Wouldn't that be a requirement to set the trigger only when the "opponent tries to cast a spell"? Can you set the trigger to any other conditions? There does not seem to be an option here.   



To further muddy the issue with what that rules of the game article says (if one wanted to go there):
Quote
The rules don't specifically say so, but you need to see or touch the other spellcaster to counter a spell (because the other spellcaster is your counterspell's target). You also need line of effect to the other spellcaster and the other spellcaster must be within range for the spell you're using as a counterspell. If your line of effect is blocked or you're out of range, your counterspell's magical energy cannot reach the other spellcaster and negate that character's spell. This means you cannot use a spell with a personal range as a counterspell (because the spell's range is limited to your person) under most circumstances. You still can counter another character's personal range spell, however, by using a dispel magic or greater dispel magic spell as a counterspell, or by taking advantage of the Improved Counterspell feat and using a spell with sufficient range to reach your opponent.
If the limit on personal ranged spells is held up, then Legend Lore, a personal ranged spell would fail as a like-spell to like-spell counterspell on that basis. Now obviously that would not necessarily matter for other spells. 
 
 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 12:50:49 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 01:57:57 AM »
Everything I quoted is from PHB 160, under "Special Initiative Actions > Ready"

I didn't know there was a Rules of the Game article about counterspelling, though from what you quoted it seems like it's making up rules where none existed previously.  That being said, "making up rules where none existed previously" seems like the only option to answer my question.
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Counterspelling Spells With a Long Casting Time
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 09:03:37 AM »
Everything I quoted is from PHB 160, under "Special Initiative Actions > Ready"
But those are general ready rules. If we go with the idea that counterspelling is a subset of ready and has its own rules, wouldn't that mean the option for the condition of the trigger is when the opponent tries to cast a spell? The wording seems to force you take that condition for your trigger, no? They explicitly address that: "In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell."

I didn't know there was a Rules of the Game article about counterspelling, though from what you quoted it seems like it's making up rules where none existed previously.  That being said, "making up rules where none existed previously" seems like the only option to answer my question.
Yeah, sometimes you just have to go there. (I personally think that there is a difference between adjudicating how game rules interact and just making things up willy-nilly but that is a discussion for another day) 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 09:07:31 AM by Necrosnoop110 »