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Creative Corner => Campaign Settings and World-Building => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Super Robot Wars d20 => Topic started by: oslecamo on May 11, 2018, 08:22:06 PM

Title: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on May 11, 2018, 08:22:06 PM
New thread for general discussion and suggestions for Super Robot Wars d20 material since the old one got too big.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on May 13, 2018, 12:35:03 PM
With the change to conscience spirit, is it intended that you can only use the cost reduction with out of class spirits? As it stands, all possible targets (except Revival) are Ship Captain, but Conscience Androids are Supers
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on May 13, 2018, 05:05:19 PM
Conscience Android only counts as a super for mecha progression, not for spirits.

Anyway yeah half price is still a huge discount, so even with a 20% extra it's still a big saving.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2018, 07:47:11 PM
Here's the list, actually. Still lots of options.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on May 13, 2018, 07:54:35 PM
Here's the list, actually. Still lots of options.

(click to show/hide)
Cloak only targets your own mech, so that's a no-go
Disturbance is a no go because you only get the discount when targeting your partner.
Invincibility is self only, so still no-go
Mercy doesn't target your partner, so nope
Prayer is self only
Provoke doesn't target partner
Scan doesn't target partner
Taunt doesn't target partner.

But fair enough, there were more than I remembered. That said, my claim was under the (mistaken) assumption that being a Conscience Android meant you were locked into Super spirits if you didn't want to pay 20% extra, so it's moot.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2018, 08:13:52 PM
Cloak affects enemies. They can no longer attack your mecha. Similar to how Provoke forces an enemy into attacking you if anything.
Disturbance affects you and your allies. To work with the discount it must not only be able affect you or your mecha. Even effects that can target another can be used on yourself provided that it could also have been used on someone else.
Invincibility wasn't meant to be there.
Mercy, as said, it feels like it qualifies but might not. It affects your next attack so it feels like a self buff much like other 'next attack' spirits do, but this one's actual result is a status effect on enemies. So I'm not sure.
Prayer, as said, is situational. Circumstance being if you are also a pilot in a combined mecha. If that's actually possible.
Provoke/Scan/Taunt - Not sure what makes you believe it has to affect only your partner to get the discount.

Thought afterward that I probably should have left the pilot class tag. That would have been more pertinent to your issue for reference.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on May 13, 2018, 08:17:07 PM
Cloak affects enemies. They can no longer attack your mecha. Similar to how Provoke forces an enemy into attacking you if anything.
Disturbance affects you and your allies. To work with the discount it must not only be able affect you or your mecha. Even effects that can target another can be used on yourself provided that it could also have been used on someone else.
Invincibility wasn't meant to be there.
Mercy, as said, it feels like it qualifies but might not. It affects your next attack so it feels like a self buff much like other 'next attack' spirits do, but this one's actual result is a status effect on enemies. So I'm not sure.
Prayer, as said, is situational. Circumstance being if you are also a pilot in a combined mecha. If that's actually possible.
Provoke/Scan/Taunt - Not sure what makes you believe it has to affect only your partner to get the discount.

Thought afterward that I probably should have left the pilot class tag. That would have been more pertinent to your issue for reference.

Conscience Spirit: At 4th, 7th and 9th level the Conscience Android learns a new Spirit. It only costs half spirit to use if used while adjacent or piloting the same mecha as her Conscience companion and targeting either of them. Spirits that can only affect you or your mecha do not benefit from this.
This text (emphasis mine) specifies why the above doesn't work. That said, you are correct on Disturbance. I was still thinking of it as it appears in the video games (-50% hit chance on all enemies). My mistake. Also my mistake on Prayer. I missed the bit where it let you target allies in a combined mech.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Anomander on May 13, 2018, 09:02:34 PM
Ah, correct. It must target either of them. My bad.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on May 29, 2018, 08:50:32 AM
The complete translation for Super Robot Wars Gaiden-Masaki Lord of the Elementals was finished (http://agtp.romhack.net/news.php?date=2018-05-22+06%3A51%3A38)! For those of you who don't know, Masaki was the first original character of the franchise, although he only showed first in Super Robot Wars 2.

Interestingly enough it actually has somewhat more complex combat mechanics than later titles like facing actually matters. Nice music too.

And gotta love the plot start:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 08, 2018, 06:38:31 PM
So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime, and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 08, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime,
I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.

I must confess that's a thing I've been considering basically since this project started. But as you point out, having a second set of spirits is quite a significant bonus and needs a significant price and/or limitations.

Then there's also the bit that it should not really be super-exclusive. There's been gundams with co-pilots in SRW too, like the Victory. I did the Helpful Automatic Robotic Operator feat half inspired in Uso who gets the Haro for extra spirits after all. In SRW J the main character has a subpilot regardless of going with a super or real. In W we have the Valhawk real starter with a co-pilot out of the bat.

So if anything I believe it should be something available to everybody, so probably a feat.


Secondary Subpilot
[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on July 08, 2018, 09:38:07 PM
So, we're working on sample character sheets for a certain recently concluded mecha anime,
I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.

and we have a suggestion/request: Can there be some more accessible way to get a subpilot? Spirits only, and cannot swap pilot mid-battle. Examples that show up in SRW would be the Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, etc.

The obvious thing would be a Super Upgrade (probably quite expensive, and certainly only take once). Other limitations might make sense too, like being restricted to no more than one spirit a turn.

I must confess that's a thing I've been considering basically since this project started. But as you point out, having a second set of spirits is quite a significant bonus and needs a significant price and/or limitations.

Then there's also the bit that it should not really be super-exclusive. There's been gundams with co-pilots in SRW too, like the Victory. I did the Helpful Automatic Robotic Operator feat half inspired in Uso who gets the Haro for extra spirits after all. In SRW J the main character has a subpilot regardless of going with a super or real. In W we have the Valhawk real starter with a co-pilot out of the bat.

So if anything I believe it should be something available to everybody, so probably a feat.


Secondary Subpilot
[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

I love it, but have a few issues with it.
SP Regen on subpilots (at least in the non-OG games) happens enough that I know a few off the top of my head (CC in Zero's Gawain, Mel in Rand's Gunleon).
My other issue is actually with the idea of SP Regen limited feats. Some feats (like this one!) are strong enough to compete with SP Regen, but the feat is just so strong that weaker exclusive feats (like HARO) are just not worth the opportunity cost. I don't know how it'll pan out now that we've changed our party to basically nothing but supers, but in the past with two real-derived classes, strike was absolutely necessary to hit anything, so not having SP Regen meant you had a very limited number of times you could hit things in a combat. One solution to this that we've discussed is to implement a system like the more recent SRW games (Z3 and later), where all pilots have an innate 5 SP Regen. This would mean that even without the feat you'd be able to build up to a Strike or Focus if you needed it, but it would take long enough to (in my view) not be overpowered. This could possibly also come with the feat itself being reduced to only provide 5 SP Regen (similar to Setsuna's Innovator unique skill), to ensure that spirits remain no more spammable than they are now.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 08, 2018, 10:28:57 PM
Didn't really have the chance to play Z3 or anything later, but default 5 spirit regen for everybody sounds quite reasonable so implemented it accross the classes, in addition to reducing the Spirit Regen feat to just 5 per round. Also added Secondary Subpilot to the feats and buffed H.A.R.O. a bit.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 08, 2018, 10:34:48 PM
I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.
Not exactly a hard guess =P

Also, I made some copyedits edits to the text. Changes bolded.


Secondary Subpilot
[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along with you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and they cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).

Bonding, eh? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Ironically that's basically perfect for every subpilot situation except DitF, because that requires the owner of the mecha to be the subpilot, at least the way we've been modeling it. Basically, the mecha belongs to the pistil, but the stamen pilots. This allows the stamen access to the pistil's maneuvers as well as their own. We're doing Zero Two, Hiro, and Strelizia as thought experiment. Having the pistil use spirits while the stamen pilots was an idea about how to model things like Ichigo coordinating the team etc. while being a subpilot. At the same time, the pistils can also technically pilot alone, it just goes poorly.

High level summary of the build(s): Zero Two (Super Pilot 8) has very aggressive feats and maneuvers (critfishing, lots of attacks), with Child Soldier features to double down on that. Hiro (Super Pilot 6) is built more for social (this is a model build after all, not minmaxed) and has lots of Everywhere You Go maneuvers. His Child Soldier stuff adds energy/EN regen mostly. Strelizia is built for Zero Two (Super Robot 8) as a generalist. The result should be a build that can both support and attack, but can only be really good at both with supports to make up for Hiro's subpar stats.

I don't mind if the actual feat added to the system doesn't cover this wacky edge case, though. DitF is... special. The concept is to demonstrate the idea of using someone else's mecha by design in order to remix builds without total character rebuilds. In this context, it shows the way you can get different results by changing the stamen for a given FRANXX. That still works without the original pilot providing spirits.

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 09, 2018, 12:01:22 AM
I suppose you're talking about Darling in the Franxx, not like there's that many mecha animes recently concluded and dual pilots only narrows it down.
Not exactly a hard guess =P

Also, I made some copyedits edits to the text. Changes bolded.


Secondary Subpilot
[Pilot]
Most non-combiner mechas have a single pilot, but some have the radical idea of carrying a second pilot to help control the machine. The reason being that the second pilot is quite spirited but sucks at actually piloting.
Prerequisites: Must have Cha 13+, cannot have Spirit Regen, Real Rank, Soul System, Helpful Robotic Operator, companions, followers, familiars nor cohorts.
Bonus: You gain a Subpilot built as either a Real Pilot or Super Pilot of your level (or combination), except they don't get their own mecha, must also take Secondary Subpilot except they don't gain any benefit from it and take a -20 penalty on AC and all 1d20 rolls if they try to pilot a mecha on their own. They can ride in your mecha along with you but the only action they can take is using their own spirits and they cannot switch controls. You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each extra one allows you to gain an extra subpilot as above but only one may ride with you in your mecha at a time. Switching them takes 8 hours to properly re-calibrate the secondary controls. The total bonding time doesn't increase, you can bond with multiple subpilots at the same time.

How does it sound?

EDIT: Added bonding time every day to maintain the subpilot(s).
Cleaned up, thanks.

Bonding, eh? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

(https://imgur.com/TXXYtNm.png)

Ironically that's basically perfect for every subpilot situation except DitF, because that requires the owner of the mecha to be the subpilot, at least the way we've been modeling it.

You mentioned Big O, Nirvash, Might Gaine, of course I tried to go as generic as possible. :P

Basically, the mecha belongs to the pistil, but the stamen pilots. This allows the stamen access to the pistil's maneuvers as well as their own. We're doing Zero Two, Hiro, and Strelizia as thought experiment. Having the pistil use spirits while the stamen pilots was an idea about how to model things like Ichigo coordinating the team etc. while being a subpilot. At the same time, the pistils can also technically pilot alone, it just goes poorly.

High level summary of the build(s): Zero Two (Super Pilot 8) has very aggressive feats and maneuvers (critfishing, lots of attacks), with Child Soldier features to double down on that. Hiro (Super Pilot 6) is built more for social (this is a model build after all, not minmaxed) and has lots of Everywhere You Go maneuvers. His Child Soldier stuff adds energy/EN regen mostly. Strelizia is built for Zero Two (Super Robot 8) as a generalist. The result should be a build that can both support and attack, but can only be really good at both with supports to make up for Hiro's subpar stats.

I don't mind if the actual feat added to the system doesn't cover this wacky edge case, though. DitF is... special. The concept is to demonstrate the idea of using someone else's mecha by design in order to remix builds without total character rebuilds. In this context, it shows the way you can get different results by changing the stamen for a given FRANXX. That still works without the original pilot providing spirits.

Ok, thanks for being more specific (since the original show really isn't) about what you're looking for. You had mentioned it being a super upgrade, so how about this.

Darling Drive: The super robot's cockpit has an extra seat and customized controls that allows a secondary pilot to easily ride along and coordinate your talents to a degree. The main pilot can use the secondary pilot's maneuvers as if they were their own as well as one of the secondary pilot's ability scores if it would be better than their own. The secondary pilot may also use one of their spirits once per round. As an extra benefit this upgrade somehow draws in a robot-less super pilot of your super robot level-2 willing to serve as the secondary pilot (they cannot have leadership, companions/followers/similar nor any [Extra] feats).  You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you. Failure to spend the necessary time bonding means they refuse to ride in your mecha until you make up for the missing time. This upgrade costs 4 points and can only be taken once. Alternatively you may take it for 3 points, but in that case you take a -10 penalty to AC and all 1d20 rolls if somehow piloting a mecha alone.

(https://imgur.com/Izplnnw.png)
Tentacle play counts as bonding, right?

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.
Good idea, done as well.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 09, 2018, 12:18:14 AM
Woohoo! Thanks, I'll finish up those sheets and post 'em here for fun.

Edit: Also, the list of things mutually excluded between SP Regen, HARO etc. is getting pretty long. Maybe add a tag like [Extra] or [Spirit] or something and have them all exclude anything else with the same tag.
Good idea, done as well.
Actually it was CKirk's idea.
Edit: Actually another of the players in our game.
Edit Edit: Also, just noticed that Darling Drive doesn't explicitly allow the secondary pilot to be the actual pilot of the mecha, though I think that would work implicitly given how mecha borrowing works. I guess it just needs to say that if the secondary pilot controls the mecha, the original pilot must be their secondary pilot instead.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 09, 2018, 05:49:34 AM
Sheets always welcome for the NPC section (self-reminder to finish statting the getters based on Raineh's drafts).

Actually it was CKirk's idea.
Edit: Actually another of the players in our game.
Well you were still the one who actually posted it here. I can't use ideas from other people if I don't know they exist. :p

Edit Edit: Also, just noticed that Darling Drive doesn't explicitly allow the secondary pilot to be the actual pilot of the mecha, though I think that would work implicitly given how mecha borrowing works. I guess it just needs to say that if the secondary pilot controls the mecha, the original pilot must be their secondary pilot instead.

But for all but the second-to-last episode secondary pilots were stuck being secondary pilots and even then switching positions was only possible for the special ⑨s and gaaahh! :shakefist

Just kidding, added Darling Drive to the super robot upgrades list with the clause that secondary pilots can take the main seat because why not.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on July 10, 2018, 11:38:19 PM
I'd just like to point out that Super Pilot still doesn't list the 5 innate SP Regen.

I'd also like to ask about Remote Sync (the new feat). If I'm an Innovade and I'm synched to my ally's mech, do they still get their turn in addition to the turn I take? Also, I assume that I can't given it doesn't say I can, but do my spirits work on a mech I'm synched to?

Furthermore, I'd like to ask if the Spirit Command Foresee (introduced in SRW V) could be implemented. It functions much as Attune does, but for Alert instead of Strike. Normally it costs 15 SP, but a few pilots (Jill from Cross Ange, Yazan from Zeta for some reason) have it for 10 SP.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 11, 2018, 12:45:11 AM
Super pilot default spirit recover fixed.

Added clause that allied pilot in a synchronized mecha can't control their mecha anymore and that when you use a spirit that would affect your mecha you can use it in a synchronized one instead.

Foresee spirit added for 15 sp since the standard for "can use on allies" is usually +50% cost. And yes sometimes the SRW games just throw cheaper versions of specific spirits to some pilots (10 sp Atunne Alfimi I'm looking at you) "for some reason" but I'm not really sure of a balanced way to implement that when the players get to design their own pilots from scratch. In particular when one would probably cheese it out and apply any big discount to the big spirits like Zeal and Love.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on July 11, 2018, 09:05:18 AM
Super pilot default spirit recover fixed.

Added clause that allied pilot in a synchronized mecha can't control their mecha anymore and that when you use a spirit that would affect your mecha you can use it in a synchronized one instead.

Foresee spirit added for 15 sp since the standard for "can use on allies" is usually +50% cost. And yes sometimes the SRW games just throw cheaper versions of specific spirits to some pilots (10 sp Atunne Alfimi I'm looking at you) "for some reason" but I'm not really sure of a balanced way to implement that when the players get to design their own pilots from scratch. In particular when one would probably cheese it out and apply any big discount to the big spirits like Zeal and Love.

Thanks! The "For some reason" bit was more aimed specifically at Yazan. Helping allies isn't exactly something he's known for, you know?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 12, 2018, 01:15:27 AM
Can the discount versions of Progressive Edge and Cutting Plasma Field lead to a weapon that costs both ammo and energy?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on July 12, 2018, 01:21:18 AM
So, looking more closely at Darling Drive and Secondary Subpilot, they both say:
Quote
You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you.
I imagine this is supposed to mimic Wizard rest time, but as written, it reduces your 10hr adventuring day to a 2hr one, which seems a shame because these would otherwise be awesome feats. Is that intentional? If it isn't, I'd suggest dropping it down to 1hr, just like a prepared caster prepping spells.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 12, 2018, 01:31:29 AM
Can the discount versions of Progressive Edge and Cutting Plasma Field lead to a weapon that costs both ammo and energy?
Yes. There's some weapons like that in SRW and here could also happen with Arcane Arsenal.

So, looking more closely at Darling Drive and Secondary Subpilot, they both say:
Quote
You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you.
I imagine this is supposed to mimic Wizard rest time, but as written, it reduces your 10hr adventuring day to a 2hr one, which seems a shame because these would otherwise be awesome feats. Is that intentional? If it isn't, I'd suggest dropping it down to 1hr, just like a prepared caster prepping spells.

Hmmm, a day has 24 hours. 8 for rest, 8 for bonding, that's still 8 hours left for adventuring.

Thanks! The "For some reason" bit was more aimed specifically at Yazan. Helping allies isn't exactly something he's known for, you know?

Wait, you mean the Z/ZZ Yazan? He's recruitable now?? At this rate next game we may just be able to recruit Archibald and Rau Le Creuset.

(although in a more serious note, secondary characters often get support spirits to try to make up for their crappy stats).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on July 12, 2018, 01:50:34 AM
Can the discount versions of Progressive Edge and Cutting Plasma Field lead to a weapon that costs both ammo and energy?
Yes. There's some weapons like that in SRW and here could also happen with Arcane Arsenal.

So, looking more closely at Darling Drive and Secondary Subpilot, they both say:
Quote
You must also spend 8 hours every day bonding in some way with your subpilot (chatting, playing, sharing a hobby, mecha maintenance, house cleaning, shopping, etc) outside of combat or they'll refuse to ride the same mecha as you.
I imagine this is supposed to mimic Wizard rest time, but as written, it reduces your 10hr adventuring day to a 2hr one, which seems a shame because these would otherwise be awesome feats. Is that intentional? If it isn't, I'd suggest dropping it down to 1hr, just like a prepared caster prepping spells.

Hmmm, a day has 24 hours. 8 for rest, 8 for bonding, that's still 8 hours left for adventuring.

Thanks! The "For some reason" bit was more aimed specifically at Yazan. Helping allies isn't exactly something he's known for, you know?

Wait, you mean the Z/ZZ Yazan? He's recruitable now?? At this rate next game we may just be able to recruit Archibald and Rau Le Creuset.

(although in a more serious note, secondary characters often get support spirits to try to make up for their crappy stats).

Yes, that Yazan. He's a secret in V, and is playable in a DLC scenario in X. He's recruitable because the Titans are still part of the federation or something (Jerid is available too!), and if you meet the conditions for their unlock, they get assigned to your ship.

Standard rules are 'you get 10 hours a day to do things that aren't basic necessities'. Though I suppose that's just an extrapolation of crafting rules and not actually stated anywhere. Objection withdrawn!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 12, 2018, 02:08:49 AM
It actually makes sense that the titans would think twice about rebelling when there's multiple alien races beelining to conquer/destroy Earth plus multiple crazy scientists also wanting to conquer/destroy Earth.

SRW plots can really get gloriously silly when humans are hellbent in fighting slightly different humans when giant hungry bugs are raining down from the skies along other cosmic horrors and whatnot.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 16, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
Okay, I'm here to look at stuff as requested.  Subtle nagging was indeed the best way to get me to do what I agreed to do.   :p

I've been keeping an eye on the SRW stuff, are you done changing everything again or should I wait before looking at stuff?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2018, 10:20:59 PM
Actually things have been stable enough for the last months that I even managed to get around to finishing a bunch of pilot schools and adding new options around. Remember there's a changelog (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7173.msg318224#msg318224) just below the index.

So yes there's no big overhaul in the works, feel free to go ahead. :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 16, 2018, 11:42:35 PM
There hasn't been a big overhaul but there have been a lot of small changes so I wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to review something and then review it again because of lots of unrelated tweaks.   :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 16, 2018, 11:55:08 PM
I promise I'll hold back on tweaking the current material. :bigeyes
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 17, 2018, 07:56:25 PM
Tweaking is fine as long as I know what's going on, so if you tweak something just don't assume that I'll know about it if you don't tell me.   :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 19, 2018, 12:34:02 AM
Understood, I'll keep that in mind.  :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 20, 2018, 01:57:43 PM
I don't think I've reviewed anything for you in depth, so just fyi I read everything but I only comment on things that I have comments about and it can get very stream of consciousness.

I'll probably avoid language corrections since you have someone on that front.

The basics seems like the best place to start.

Oh good, you recognize that your mecha stuff has a higher power level than normal and have rules for toning it down in a non-srw game.

Your recommended mecha series spoiler is empty.

Language correction person should please review the mecha combat basics spoiler, my phone isn't the place for me to do serious editing from.

Do mecha gain the pilot's fast healing?

On crits do mechas take all damage or just the extra damage from it being a crit (on top of the pilot taking damage)?

How do attack rolls for Area Assault work?

It is now lunchtime, I'll have to do the rest of the thread later.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2018, 08:09:02 PM
I don't think I've reviewed anything for you in depth, so just fyi I read everything but I only comment on things that I have comments about and it can get very stream of consciousness.

I'll probably avoid language corrections since you have someone on that front.
Engrish is all part of the charm and 100% intentional.

The basics seems like the best place to start.

Oh good, you recognize that your mecha stuff has a higher power level than normal and have rules for toning it down in a non-srw game.

Your recommended mecha series spoiler is empty.
After photobucket, seems like imgur is starting to give problems with hotlinking. Replaced with postimage link, can you see it now? Also please do let me know if any other images are not showing up (there should be a pic at the very start and another at the very last post of the intro thread).

EDIT: Still having some problems, seems like it was too big so breaking it down in smaller pieces.
EDIT EDIT: Ok, seems to be working now.

Language correction person should please review the mecha combat basics spoiler, my phone isn't the place for me to do serious editing from.
That would be Fzzr, but he would probably appreciate if you could support on that front when possible. :p

Do mecha gain the pilot's fast healing?
Yes.

On crits do mechas take all damage or just the extra damage from it being a crit (on top of the pilot taking damage)?
All damage.

How do attack rolls for Area Assault work?
Added "roll once and compare against their ACs".

It is now lunchtime, I'll have to do the rest of the thread later.
Looking up to it, thanks. :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 20, 2018, 09:28:58 PM
Yeah, I have a lot of catching up to do on the wiki... and when it's that time, it's also spelling time.

Edit: What I'm saying is, if there are any threads where you're going to want placeholder posts, now is probably the time. =P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 20, 2018, 09:34:52 PM
Forgive me for my engrish, but what exactly do you mean by placeholder posts?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on July 20, 2018, 09:47:15 PM
Forgive me for my engrish, but what exactly do you mean by placeholder posts?

Reserved post/comment. Placeholder, as in something that holds a place (like a place in line).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 21, 2018, 03:25:26 PM
I did not expect fixing the images to involve so much kissing.   :P

I'll be nice to Fzzr and work on the "Engrish" in the Mecha Combat Basics spoiler since I have a full keyboard this time.  I've just copied the whole spoiler contents and corrected, you can paste the corrections back in.  Since I was editing it anyway I clarified the sections on Fast Healing and Critical Hit damage.




Getting into a mecha you own is a standard action as long as you're adjacent to it (getting into a mecha you don't own will demand hacking and tricking and be completely dependent on the situation and extremely time-inefficient). Getting out of a mecha is a move action, putting you into any adjacent square. While piloting the mecha, it counts as equipped by you only for the purposes of the Plain History school. Stopping piloting the mecha without exiting it is still a move action, and restarting piloting from inside is still a standard action. If you don't have any pilot class, you take a -4 penalty on all 1d20 rolls while piloting a mecha.

Unless otherwise noted, each mecha has only enough space inside for the pilot carrying a light load. This can be spent to carry other people if the pilot is strong enough, although those other people cannot contribute to the mecha's abilities unless noted otherwise, and they will have to squeeze in the pilot's lap/back. Such freeloaders cannot take any actions besides basic speaking that can never trigger other stuff, including being unable to use Spirits unless they have a specific class feature that mentions it like a ship captain's 2nd officer or a Peace Princess's passenger ability. The exception is that it is  a move action for them to exit. If the current pilot does not wish to let freeloader exit, roll opposed pilot level+Str mod checks.

Mecha ranged weapons add the wielder's Dex mod to damage rolls. Ranged weapons with the Brutal property can add the wielder's Str mod to damage rolls instead. Mecha ranged weapons always provoke Aoos when firing while threatened.

Mecha weapons count as two-handed for purposes of power-attack and similar abilities if no other weapons are used in the same round.

Mecha Melee weapons add 1,5 the Str mod of the user if they don't use any other weapon for that round. If it is a [Main] weapon, 2x Str mod. If it's a Heavy melee weapon, 2,5 Str mod. If it is a Heavy [Main] melee weapon, 3x Str mod. The same thing with ranged weapons and Dex.

When full attacking, a mecha may choose to either perform iterative attacks with a single weapon or attack once with any or all of its in-built and arsenal weapons, up to a total number of weapons equal to 1+1/3 their pilot level, rounded down. In the latter case, all weapons after the first take a -5 penalty on the attack roll, only add half the relevant stat to damage, and cannot benefit from any precision damage.

Mecha weapons always count as [Force] effects whenever it would be beneficial for them, such as affecting incorporeal opponents, except for bypassing DR.

For mecha combat schools, any strike that demands you to hit your enemy with a basic attack still deals damage as normal on top of any other effects unless otherwise noticed.

The mecha uses the pilot's base saves, BAB, skill bonuses, feats, and self-buff class abilities for fighting (except Regeneration but including Fast Healing), plus the pilot's Str and Dex scores (it takes a strong pilot to handle a mecha under stress, and it takes good reflexes to make it react in time). Remember that they're amplified to the mecha's size, with every foot involved increasing to one mu (for example, a pilot in a mecha takes a -1 penalty on spot checks for every 10 mu of distance, instead of for every 10 feet). Spells that affect others, Psionics, Breath Weapons, Rays and other similar abilities from the pilot cannot be used while inside the mecha, unless it possesses a system for that (maneuvers can still be "channeled" just fine through a mecha tough). A mecha is unaffected by the pilot's size (although you cannot pilot a mecha that's smaller than you). A mecha can only change size by taking the super robot growth upgrade or some other ability that explicitly allows a mecha/ship to change its size. This includes a mecha ignoring abilities of its Pilot such as powerful build.

Despite being a machine, mechas are vulnerable to critical hits due to having complex internal structures. They also take normal damage from fire, cold and electricity and overall possess no inherent resistances or immunities besides what's explicitly mentioned, however have no break DC. Otherwise count them as objects for any other abilities, even if they somehow acquire mental scores, such as the Sentient upgrade.


Damage taken by the mecha is absorbed by the mecha's own HP, never by the pilot, unless the attack was a successful critical hit. In that case, the pilot takes the amount of damage that would have been dealt if not for the critical hit, on top of the mecha taking full damage from the critical hit. Some mechas may have extra pilot protection, reducing this damage further.

A mecha reduced to 0 HP starts to collapse. If the pilot was smaller than the mecha, he/she automatically is ejected in a pod which has 1/10 the mecha's total HP and same Nat armor/DR, but is one size category bigger than the pilot and counts as a mecha for attack purposes. The pod travels 1d12 x5 mu in a direction of the pilot's choice without provoking attacks of opportunity. Some mechas may have improved pods which can move and/or fight on their own. Exiting the pod is a move action. Pilots of the same size as the mecha are instead thrown 1d12x5 mu in a direction of their choice without provoking attacks of opportunity. The pilot may also choose to eject at any time as an immediate action even if the mecha is grappled (but not if it is pinned or the mecha otherwise disabled/helpless/unable to take actions).

A non-destroyed mecha can repair 10% of its missing HP with 1 hour of work if all of its crew/pilot work on it and aren't interrupted.

If in a grapple, only a mecha's weapons with the Defensive property count as Light for attacking purposes (and thus non-defensive weapons cannot be used).

Mechas are immune to the Wrap ability, as well as any other ability that would combine multiple creatures into one, directly or indirectly.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 21, 2018, 10:54:04 PM
I did not expect fixing the images to involve so much kissing.   :P
Hard times demand hard measures. :p

I'll be nice to Fzzr and work on the "Engrish" in the Mecha Combat Basics spoiler since I have a full keyboard this time.  I've just copied the whole spoiler contents and corrected, you can paste the corrections back in.  Since I was editing it anyway I clarified the sections on Fast Healing and Critical Hit damage.

Great, edited in!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 21, 2018, 11:59:49 PM
Onto the rest of the Intro post.

As written, Beam Coat isn't a wall/barrier/field even though that is the intention (I'm thinking about for people who play SRW without you as the DM).  I'd suggest renaming it and adding wall/barrier/field to the end (Barrier would make the most sense IMO).

Can I pick spirits for a class that I don't have?

Other than that everything looks good.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 22, 2018, 12:41:17 AM
Onto the rest of the Intro post.

As written, Beam Coat isn't a wall/barrier/field even though that is the intention (I'm thinking about for people who play SRW without you as the DM).  I'd suggest renaming it and adding wall/barrier/field to the end (Barrier would make the most sense IMO).
I honestly thought the "other" bit made it explicit. Added clause that Beam Coat counts as a barrier to make it so. It appears in too many places to risk leaving behind a non-updated version plus the name is too classic to change.

Can I pick spirits for a class that I don't have?
Yes.

Other than that everything looks good.
Yay!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 22, 2018, 03:41:52 PM
Since one of your players wasn't aware that beam coat was part of the wall/barrier/field trio I figured that more explicit would be better in case you aren't around to correct misinformation.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 22, 2018, 07:13:35 PM
Your concern and willingness to dig into years-old campaign posts is appreciated. Now if it is still not explicit enough please say so. If it is explicit enough, there is plenty of other material waiting that I would prefer to tackle next rather than discuss what happened under older versions of the rules.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 22, 2018, 07:47:47 PM
This isn't years old posts, this came up in your ooc thread a week ago.  :P

Edit: This page (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18008.660).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 22, 2018, 07:53:44 PM
Said player had already misread the same rule before (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7174.msg321085;topicseen#msg321085). It doesn't matter how I update that rule, it can now be expected he in particular will keep misread it, while none of the other players had any trouble with interaction between multiple barriers/fields/walls/coats.

So ignoring the one player who keeps repeating the same mistake, do you still consider the rule not explicit enough?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 22, 2018, 08:00:42 PM
You made your adjustment, it's fine.  I was just explaining myself.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 23, 2018, 02:40:46 AM
Very well.

As an aside, why is it not any more difficult to disarm a weapon physically built into a mecha than it is to regular disarm a weapon that is merely held in hand? I mean, imo, if disarming a built-in weapon is possible, its kind of akin to trying to disarm a weapon from a locked gauntlet or something, no?

A not-in-built weapon isn't "merely held in hand", it's tightly clamped by metal manipulators that were designed specifically for that purpose. If you can pull a weapon from that, pulling a weapon physically built into a mecha isn't really harder.

In mecha battles "disarming" should be taken to the literal sense that a limb's been chopped off. As talked previously it's a staple of mecha shows, giant robots get bits chopped off left, right and center. Luckily mechas don't bleed off and even a chopped limb can be quickly fixed in a base or even jury-rig something on the scene (move action to "pick up" disarmed weapon).

Also again rule of cool, mechas holding weapons in hand should be as viable as leg missiles and shoulder cannons and whatnot.

Well, to a degree it makes sense because mecha have a tendency to lose arms and everything else.

But then it goes back to 3.X being all about size for combat manoeuvres and the best way to deal with them is to be big. And if you throw enough attempts in, eventually there's a fail... which is a pretty big deal when it comes to how limited weapon replacement is.

Cough Tek Knight cough. Also Gun Maniac and Martial Machine have some maneuvers to help make up for size differences plus some T.O.U.H.O.U. stuff.

And that is, in point of fact, the only REALLY good option for Tek Knight...

No, seriously, it has the least hideous drawbacks. If you're looking to maximize combat maneuvers as a tiny mecha you're probably getting up close and personal anyways, so arsenal halving is just *shrug*. Point for point some of that stuff is just not worth it. Great Plating and whatnot is a really nice option, why? Because when your Dodge bonus is 0, then you don't care that it gets cut in half. By contrast, consider Tek Reactor, which gives you +40 energy but halves your spirit points, at a whoopin' 4 point cost. In order to make full use of size benefits, you'd have to invest 8 points in it for a total of +75 max energy. By contrast, for 5 points, you could have Reactor 2, which would get you an average 11 points of energy each round with no drawbacks and spare you three upgrade points. Taking Tek Reactor effectively makes certain higher-level Super spirits unusable. Tek Soul, by contrast, makes some low-level spirits spammable (sort of), but max HP in half is... yeesh. Better hope no one gets through your every-single-round Alert, buddy. Tek Storage is... okay, I guess? Sort of? I mean, if you want to be a tiny, tiny kinetic weapons platform, then the energy halving isn't so bad. I honestly don't understand why you can't have Nanomachines along with it (Mysterious Power makes sense though, since less energy is less of a problem if every round regen is making up for it).

Because Tek Storage works off Hyperdimensional Storage and that along Nanomachines and Mysterious power are the most popular super upgrades, thus they're mutually exclusive otherwise basically every super will just be taking all of them.

Anyway you seem to agree that Tek Storage and Tek Servos are valid choices for their builds, so any issue would be with Tek Reactor and Tek Soul.

For Tek Reactor, extra energy right now can be more valuable than more extra energy in the long run. It allows for greater bursts in one round, and you can take both it and Mysterious Power for an even greater combined effect. As for the drawback, I would be open to swap half spirits for, say, half combat maneuvers like grapple/disarm/trip/etc.

For Tek Soul, again remember that a bigger starting pools allows for greater bursts. That +40 spirit reserves means another average cost spirit or would greatly help pay for something big like Zeal or whatnot out of the gate. As for the drawback, cutting HP in half is nasty yes, but I want an option for lower HP supers and if any build can do it with such a drawback, it would indeed be a spirit build able to spam defensive spirits like Guard every round.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on July 23, 2018, 03:30:58 AM
Except for even HP tank mechas being able to be effortlessly taken down within a single round, yes halving HP totally is worth being able to spam something like Guard every round.

Except, again, for basically being able to do that well enough without Tek Soul >.>

Oh, and something like the Fury spirit ignores Guard, and you wouldn't need to use Fury more than once for these 1/2 HP mechas to kill them.....
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 23, 2018, 04:09:17 AM
You'll notice that current Guard has a clause that if an effect would ignore it, instead the reduction changes to 1/3, which still comes ahead of 1/2. The other damage reduction spirits also got similar clauses for quite some time now.

And although you can get enough spirit to spam Guard for several rounds, Tek Soul allows you to actually get a neutral/positive spirit regen while doing so much earlier than would otherwise be possible.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 23, 2018, 10:00:13 AM
I get that half is easier to calculate Osle, but as proportions go, it is exceedingly harsh on some stats and not so much on others (again, Great Plating comes to mind).

Being able to go nova on your opponents is a lot more useful if you can ensure that A) you go first and B) they die either during said nova or shortly after. If either condition is broken, then the drawbacks become untenable - you can't go nova if you're dead, and you can't finish them off if you're spent. Given that there is pretty much no way to manipulate initiative within this homebrew system (that I can see anyway), then as a build choice, it becomes a lot less valid.

I imagine that the reduction applies on top of your "current" totals, rather than atop the totals at the time you pick the option (which would make said options a lot more attractive at lower levels), but it might be a good idea to add a note for the sake of clarification. Cthulhu knows us min-maxers hunt for technicalities like they're the last dodo bird.  :P

My suggestion for Tek Reactor, if you MUST apply a reduction to Spirits (I personally dislike the idea of permanent changes to stuff you can only gain through levels... but I get where the design comes from) is to apply a 20% or 1/5 reduction instead. It's severe enough to matter without completely inutilizing higher-level spirits usage (it only delays them). Similarly for Tek Soul, apply a 20% reduction to max HP. Which again, is pretty nasty, but a lot more survivable than 50%.

But Hyperdimensional Storage already forbids Nanomachines and Mysterious Reactor. As it is, you can take Tek Storage AND Hyperdimensional if you want to cram more weapons into your tiny robot (which brings this to mind)...

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ertxbTvZZQwvK/giphy.gif)

Now, HS can be taken multiple times, but Tek Storage only once. If you lift the restriction for Tek Storage alone, you provide an alternative for smaller Supers to have a little more arsenal space while also having more staying power. At the same time, if they want MORE DAKKA they'll have to sacrifice staying power for it, which would balance it out. Hyperdimensional Storage still wins out in the cost-benefit department though.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 23, 2018, 03:24:54 PM
You guys keep talking about things that I don't even know about, I'll start with the classes now.   :p

Real Pilot

Sleight Of Hand not being on the skills list feels weird, mainly because Open Lock and other primary rogue skills are.  It isn't a big deal either way, I just wanted to mention it.

That is a lot of mecha with options that I haven't looked at in years.  Is it safe to assume that someone has already reviewed those or do I need to get in depth with them?

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on July 23, 2018, 07:51:47 PM
You guys keep talking about things that I don't even know about, I'll start with the classes now.   :p

Real Pilot

Sleight Of Hand not being on the skills list feels weird, mainly because Open Lock and other primary rogue skills are.  It isn't a big deal either way, I just wanted to mention it.

That is a lot of mecha with options that I haven't looked at in years.  Is it safe to assume that someone has already reviewed those or do I need to get in depth with them?

Nobody did a full review of the reals that I remember, only pointing out some odd bits here and there, so a more in-depth analysis would be welcome.

Added Sleight of Hand to Real Pilot.

I get that half is easier to calculate Osle, but as proportions go, it is exceedingly harsh on some stats and not so much on others (again, Great Plating comes to mind).

Being able to go nova on your opponents is a lot more useful if you can ensure that A) you go first and B) they die either during said nova or shortly after. If either condition is broken, then the drawbacks become untenable - you can't go nova if you're dead, and you can't finish them off if you're spent. Given that there is pretty much no way to manipulate initiative within this homebrew system (that I can see anyway), then as a build choice, it becomes a lot less valid.
Spells and stealth and superior range/speed are still around.

I imagine that the reduction applies on top of your "current" totals, rather than atop the totals at the time you pick the option (which would make said options a lot more attractive at lower levels), but it might be a good idea to add a note for the sake of clarification. Cthulhu knows us min-maxers hunt for technicalities like they're the last dodo bird.  :P
Considering that modern  studies show that dodos were not actually actively hunted (since it seems like they tasted awful) and were most probably driven extinct by pigs and dogs introduced in their island, maybe that's not a boast you should be doing. :p

Anyway added extra note that the penalties apply to the current values.

My suggestion for Tek Reactor, if you MUST apply a reduction to Spirits (I personally dislike the idea of permanent changes to stuff you can only gain through levels... but I get where the design comes from)
Yet you have no problem with penalty to Dodge that can only be gained by special abilities. :p

Still penalty to spirits doesn't feel that right so changed to penalty to Grapple, Trip, Disarm and Bullrush.

is to apply a 20% or 1/5 reduction instead. It's severe enough to matter without completely inutilizing higher-level spirits usage (it only delays them). Similarly for Tek Soul, apply a 20% reduction to max HP. Which again, is pretty nasty, but a lot more survivable than 50%.
I wouldn't say that 20% is that nasty, really. More in particular, there's also quite low HP real robots. If only a 20% HP variation is considered viable, then a lot more needs changing besides this upgrade.

In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

But Hyperdimensional Storage already forbids Nanomachines and Mysterious Reactor. As it is, you can take Tek Storage AND Hyperdimensional if you want to cram more weapons into your tiny robot (which brings this to mind)...

(https://media.giphy.com/media/ertxbTvZZQwvK/giphy.gif)

Now, HS can be taken multiple times, but Tek Storage only once. If you lift the restriction for Tek Storage alone, you provide an alternative for smaller Supers to have a little more arsenal space while also having more staying power. At the same time, if they want MORE DAKKA they'll have to sacrifice staying power for it, which would balance it out. Hyperdimensional Storage still wins out in the cost-benefit department though.

Ok, removed the limitation for Tek storage.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on July 24, 2018, 12:22:43 AM
Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on July 24, 2018, 12:30:06 AM
Real Robot in depth analysis will happen but it might take some time.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on July 24, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.

Right now I have basically quantum level 1-5th spells and I'm still squishy as a bug, too, so that should be telling of why HP is supposed to be important again...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on August 02, 2018, 05:16:11 PM
Real Robot Math Analysis

I obviously don't watch robot anime because I didn't realize that all four generics are acronyms until after I made my spreadsheet with a huge names column.

ARMS HP felt odd when compared to the others but when I started writing out an actual breakdown to explain myself it made sense so nevermind.  Everyone has the same basic progression layout.

VALKYRIE's Transform cost goes up at level 6 & 7, is that intentional?  1-5 it costs 10 Arsenal space.  At 6 it costs 15 arsenal space and at 7 it costs 20.

Other than that I just don't know the system well enough to make a further comparison between the generics or compare the generics vs the non-generics because I don't know what arsenal space and hardpoints can buy.

Here's a basic table of all of the generic robots if someone wants to do something with it.

NameLVLSizeSavesNat ArmorDRHPEnergyDodgeArsenal SpaceHardpointsSpeedOther
ARMS1S000850045420
ARMS2S1352450345425
ARMS3S24104850445430
ARMS4S35158050545435
ARMS5S472011250745440
ARMS6S592514450955445
ARMS7S61030176501065450
GUNDAM1M00010100040430
GUNDAM2M13530100340435
GUNDAM3M241060100440440
GUNDAM4M3515100100540445
GUNDAM5M4720140100740450
GUNDAM6M5925180100950455
GUNDAM7M610302201001060460
KNIGHTMARE1T0-10575130335
KNIGHTMARE2T1251575430340
KNIGHTMARE3T23103075530345
KNIGHTMARE4T34155075630355
KNIGHTMARE5T46207075830360
KNIGHTMARE6T582590751035370
KNIGHTMARE7T6930110751140380
VALKYRIE1M00010100030330Transform
VALKYRIE2M13530100330335Transform
VALKYRIE3M241060100430340Transform
VALKYRIE4M3515100100530345Transform
VALKYRIE5M4720140100730350Transform
VALKYRIE6M5925180100935355Transform
VALKYRIE7M510302201001040360Transform
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 02, 2018, 11:06:29 PM
Real Robot Math Analysis

I obviously don't watch robot anime because I didn't realize that all four generics are acronyms until after I made my spreadsheet with a huge names column.

ARMS HP felt odd when compared to the others but when I started writing out an actual breakdown to explain myself it made sense so nevermind.  Everyone has the same basic progression layout.

VALKYRIE's Transform cost goes up at level 6 & 7, is that intentional?  1-5 it costs 10 Arsenal space.  At 6 it costs 15 arsenal space and at 7 it costs 20.
It's less of a matter of transform costing more but keeping the VALKYRIE's reduced arsenal proportionally lower to the GUNDAMS own since ways to increase arsenal space are pretty limited in SRWd20.

Other than that I just don't know the system well enough to make a further comparison between the generics or compare the generics vs the non-generics because I don't know what arsenal space and hardpoints can buy.
Fair enough, feel free to check the Arsenal properly first then we can talk about the real robots again.

And thanks for the table!

Quote
In the other hand I point you to wizards with their puny 1d4 HD (only 1/3 of a barbarian's 1d12 HD) yet being considered one of the top classes on the game. There are ways to work around low HP.

The way wizards work around low hp is because of practically being the next best thing to outright God if not better.

That is a bad comparison to make considering the hoops mechas have gotta jump thru to get spells. Mechas have so far shown themselves to not synergize well with spellcasting, regardless of being able to acquire it at no where near the viability of a wizard.

And that's fine, mechs don't need spellcasting, much less having it on par with wizards; but that does mean that any mech taking that 1/2 hp loss seriously needs to actually be given something worth having no hp just like wizards.

Right now I have basically quantum level 1-5th spells and I'm still squishy as a bug, too, so that should be telling of why HP is supposed to be important again...

Ok, rogues then. Have a 1d6 while barbarians have 1d12, and rogues have no spells and can't really afford much Con while the barbarian can, but rogues are still considered a pretty solid class.

And case in point Nanshork just went over the generic reals and has no trouble with KNIGHTMAREs having half HP of GUNDAMS.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 02, 2018, 11:32:12 PM
Don't they make up for it by having a lot more hardpoints and Arsenal space?

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on August 03, 2018, 12:08:46 AM
Don't they make up for it by having a lot more hardpoints and Arsenal space?

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.

Actually I was so distracted by Transform analysis that I forgot about the KNIGHTMAREs.

Unless being a tiny mecha has some sort of bonus they kind of suck (I don't know if mecha have size bonuses/penalties as normal).

Even if they do, does being harder to hit and good at hiding (and a little faster) make up for equivalent arsenal/hardpoints as a VALKYRIE with half the HP?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 03, 2018, 12:23:07 AM
Mechas get the usual size bonus/penalties.

Ok, since you say the size advantages alone aren't worth it then I buffed the KNIGHTMARES to have 125 base energy and 5 hardpoints from tiers I to V plus 6 hardpoints and 150 energy for tier VI plus 7 hardpoints and 175 energy for tier VII plus GUNDAMS grade arsenal space progression.

My point is kind of, building things specifically to be beefy still doesn't seem to overcome how many different ways there are to mince that beef into tiny pieces.
That is a core aspect of D&D before 4e. Even a fighter in full plate and shield or a raging barbarian can go down to a single lucky crit or unlucky save roll. The chances of a beefy character going down in 1 round are significant less than the squishy wizard, but a dedicated assault is still a threat.

Still Anomander's character ended ungodly tough.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on August 03, 2018, 12:27:47 AM
Ok, rogues then. Have a 1d6 while barbarians have 1d12, and rogues have no spells and can't really afford much Con while the barbarian can, but rogues are still considered a pretty solid class.

And what does that have to do with the topic? Honestly.  :huh
I could sit here and pick apart both classes to show why exactly either one is worth what it's getting out of not having other things but, yanno, at the end of the day, we can compare everything in D&D to everything else in D&D, but none of those things are mechas.

What is actually being gained from cutting your HP in half and is it actually a comparable gain for such an insane loss?
(And I don't mean to be asking that question as if to say I don't know. Because I do know what the gains/losses are for the ability's current incarnation. I'm asking if you really believe it grants a worthwhile trade off because no one else here does. This is a system where a mecha built as a massive tank can still be dropped in a single round, so what can really justify being crippled to half HP forever?)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 03, 2018, 01:11:59 AM
For the KNIGHTMARE, half HP grants you tiny size plus more base energy than most reals plus more hardpoints than anything else available in the srw d20 Index.

For a super robot with Tek Knight, half HP allows you the biggest spirit pool and spirit regen possible in the srw d20 Index, meaning more Zeal, more Love, more Bravery, more of your pick really.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on August 03, 2018, 01:30:15 AM
From a purely theoretical standpoint, half hp vs better speed + energy + hardpoints checks out.  That's a glass cannon and actually has a tradoff more than +1 AC vs ARMS and an extra +4 to hide (also roughly 2/3 of the hp of ARMS).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 03, 2018, 01:36:48 PM
So what you're ultimately saying is that it pays more to be a guy who outruns range of any weapon than it pays to be able to withstand that guy's attack, gotcha.  :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on August 03, 2018, 04:55:24 PM
So what you're ultimately saying is that it pays more to be a guy who outruns range of any weapon than it pays to be able to withstand that guy's attack, gotcha.  :P

I'm saying that both are viable builds in normal D&D.   :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 03, 2018, 11:23:53 PM
That's the idea, Nanshork here's to help polish things so both strategies are about equally viable for mecha.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 04, 2018, 12:35:47 AM
So what you're ultimately saying is that it pays more to be a guy who outruns range of any weapon than it pays to be able to withstand that guy's attack, gotcha.  :P

I'm saying that both are viable builds in normal D&D.   :P

In normal D&D, inordinate amounts of HP is SO not a viable strategy, man... Even Diehard+Persisted Revivify beats it.  :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 06, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
Hey, just a couple of questions regarding multi-classing...

One: What exactly happens when you multiclass one of these classes with a Moon Vanguard?

Two: Sorry if this seems stupid, but what happens if you multiclass, say, an Arcane Pilot with a Super Pilot? Do you get a super that can channel spells, but has full hp and all that jazz?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 07, 2018, 08:34:45 AM
Hey, just a couple of questions regarding multi-classing...

One: What exactly happens when you multiclass one of these classes with a Moon Vanguard?
Not much, the nano-armor and mecha are separate entities.

Funny thing is that people keep asking that question despite being classes from two different projects so I'm starting to get tempted of adding some special rule for that case, but I don't really have any idea what since that was never my intention.

Two: Sorry if this seems stupid, but what happens if you multiclass, say, an Arcane Pilot with a Super Pilot? Do you get a super that can channel spells, but has full hp and all that jazz?

Now that multiclass is intended, the HP from the super pilot side would be full and the resulting super robot would be able to channel spells.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 07, 2018, 11:37:43 AM
That would be nice, at least, like, a feat or something.

I mean it does seem a little weird, considering that the Moon Vanguard relies a lot on this stuff.

Plus I have a character who's a gestalt Moon Vanguard/Peace Princess, and I feel it would just be easier overall this way, hence why I'm suggesting it could be a feat.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 07, 2018, 04:42:08 PM
That would be nice, at least, like, a feat or something.

I mean it does seem a little weird, considering that the Moon Vanguard relies a lot on this stuff.

Plus I have a character who's a gestalt Moon Vanguard/Peace Princess, and I feel it would just be easier overall this way, hence why I'm suggesting it could be a feat.

I mean it would be nice, and yes Moon Vanguard uses Super Robot Wars things. But Moon Vanguard has a suit of mecha armor that has the ability to overpower itself to be on mecha scale while SRW is actual mecha that are continuously on the mecha scale. That's sort of like saying Wizards and Sorcerers are exactly the same because they are both arcane casters. Also if you want a simple answer to gestalt are they on the same side or different ones? Cause if it's the later, there's no direct involvement and if not the Nanoarmor and Mecha are still separate entities.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 07, 2018, 05:22:34 PM
One other thing

Would a gunship work in space if it had a tesla drive?

Same with the Floating Fortress flaw, and vice versa with starships and Spheres.

Sorry if it seems silly that I need clarification for the matter both. But I like to keep my grounds covered,
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 08, 2018, 12:27:33 PM
Added Moon Pilot feat for the multiclass, let me know what you think.

One other thing

Would a gunship work in space if it had a tesla drive?

Same with the Floating Fortress flaw, and vice versa with starships and Spheres.

Sorry if it seems silly that I need clarification for the matter both. But I like to keep my grounds covered,

Yes, a Tesla drive would allow to go over the movement limitations. And honestly speaking your questions so far are hardly silly compared to some of the stuff I saw asked about my homebrew. :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 08, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
Oh, that's neat. I've been using the thing that the Peace princess has where a passenger princess can merge her Royal robot with a Mecha, but it's nice to have something that gives a form of compatibility.

Also I suppose a possible other solution might have just been to create a feat that would allow having the nano-armour count as, say, a royal robot.

Relatedly, do you think it would be okay for a Moon Vanguard to reconfigure her Star-Lotus ship into

A) A successor ship

B) One of those ones that sacrifice transport capacity for more dakka

C) One of those flawed ones, like a Starship or a landship

Finally, is it intended that the Beam Shot Launcher bayonet can be used with Beam Barrage? Because that does raise some interesting imagery.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 11, 2018, 11:14:50 PM
Oh, that's neat. I've been using the thing that the Peace princess has where a passenger princess can merge her Royal robot with a Mecha, but it's nice to have something that gives a form of compatibility.

Also I suppose a possible other solution might have just been to create a feat that would allow having the nano-armour count as, say, a royal robot.

Relatedly, do you think it would be okay for a Moon Vanguard to reconfigure her Star-Lotus ship into

A) A successor ship

B) One of those ones that sacrifice transport capacity for more dakka

C) One of those flawed ones, like a Starship or a landship

Finally, is it intended that the Beam Shot Launcher bayonet can be used with Beam Barrage? Because that does raise some interesting imagery.
Your first suggestions seem fine, updated Moon Vanguard to allow those, although for the flaw you'll only gain the feat while piloting your battleship nano-armor.

Good point in the shot launcher bayonete, removed the Beam from the name since it's supposed to be a simple metal blade.

Also if you don't mind me asking, could you give us a short description of your party composition and campaign overview for research purposes?  :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 12, 2018, 09:58:54 AM
Do you mean all my suggestions, or just the one with the battleship?

Because only the battleship ones were there when I checked.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: RickyRedhsirt on August 14, 2018, 04:49:00 AM
When a Pilot makes an attack with the Fury spirit , is DR considered an ability that would be ignored?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 15, 2018, 04:37:43 AM
When a Pilot makes an attack with the Fury spirit , is DR considered an ability that would be ignored?
Good point, added that actual DR and hardness aren't ignored since it's supposed to be more of a way to ignore exotic defenses. Also added clause that doesn't allow to ignore your own abilities.

Do you mean all my suggestions, or just the one with the battleship?

Because only the battleship ones were there when I checked.

Ups, had forgot to actually edit in the Moon Vanguard/Peace Princess synergy feat, done. Was there any other suggestion from you I missed?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 15, 2018, 05:48:53 AM
The intent was more general

Like, I would have done it like so

One level of Moon Vanguard and one level of any class that gets an altered mecha, including Arcane Pilots, Divine Pilots and Ideal Idol's

Your nanoarmour can now count as an Arcane Robot/Divine Robot/Stage Ship

But, well, I got what I need  :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on August 15, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
I really like Ragna Reactor. It's a super cool way of modeling super modes, but why does it require transform? Vilkiss (the inspiration, going by that gif you used) isn't the only ragnamail with a super mode like that (Embryo's Hysterica does it too), and the other don't have transforms. It also restricts other build space. For example, I could totally see using it to model the Granzon's upgrade into Neo Granzon (done in battle in Dark Prison and Moon Dwellers), except Granzon doesn't transform. Similarly, the NT-D system on the Gundam Unicorn could be well modeled if not for the transform requirement (and also the fact that it's a real, but so is Vilkiss).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 15, 2018, 02:34:13 PM
I was wondering that myself, and I'm more intrigued given his examples.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 15, 2018, 07:33:18 PM
I really like Ragna Reactor. It's a super cool way of modeling super modes, but why does it require transform? Vilkiss (the inspiration, going by that gif you used) isn't the only ragnamail with a super mode like that (Embryo's Hysterica does it too), and the other don't have transforms. It also restricts other build space. For example, I could totally see using it to model the Granzon's upgrade into Neo Granzon (done in battle in Dark Prison and Moon Dwellers), except Granzon doesn't transform. Similarly, the NT-D system on the Gundam Unicorn could be well modeled if not for the transform requirement (and also the fact that it's a real, but so is Vilkiss).

Fair enough, removed the Transform prerequisite.

Also the Unicorn Gundam and Vilkiss are fine examples of real/super multiclass. They look quite "real" at first glance, and then suddenly are pulling time-space-bending powers out of nowhere. The Unicorn Gundam even goes "ppfftt, I don't actually need beam swords/sabers, I shall DEFEAT YOU WITH MY FISTS! ORA ORA ORA ORA!!!" and later on shoots a giant wave of freezing light that stops a whole fleet.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 16, 2018, 10:26:09 AM
Speaking of which, can you purposely end Berserk?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 16, 2018, 04:19:22 PM
Also

1: Did you see my message about how I might have made the MV/PP feat more general.

2: Can a battleship do a "fly-run"

2.5: Can you fly-run whilst using cruising speed

3: Do movement boosting accessories get boosted by things like running or cruising speed?

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 17, 2018, 09:08:29 PM
Speaking of which, can you purposely end Berserk?

Yes, don't attack and don't get attacked.

Also

1: Did you see my message about how I might have made the MV/PP feat more general.

2: Can a battleship do a "fly-run"

2.5: Can you fly-run whilst using cruising speed

3: Do movement boosting accessories get boosted by things like running or cruising speed?

1: If you insist, made it more general. Also by chance, did you see my message about if you could give us a short overview of your party composition and campaign?  :)

2: Yes.

2.5: No, only basic movement.

3: Yes, their bonus would be multiplied too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 18, 2018, 01:21:44 AM
1: Honestly, the character is more or less just in the planning stage right now.

2: If we have the Star-Lotus Ship, could we make it count as a stage ship with Vanguard Princess?

Not Really A Problem But Still Kinda Weird: Its still called Vanguard Princess

3: If I Disable All Safeties (the SFOH stance) and then activate cruising speed, am I going three times faster, or six (if you can't be in a stance whilst using cruising speed, how the hell does warp speed work)

4: Do landships, submarines and seaships still get five mu for every two Captain levels?

5: If I'm the Heir Apparant (pp rags to riches option), does my Royal Nanoarmour have full Hp, dr and all that stuff too?

6: If I'm a lady, do I need to have my boobs out to be shirtless, or is a bra fine?

7: The seventh tier of PARA-MAIL probably isn't meant to lose an accessory slot
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2018, 01:54:28 AM
1: Honestly, the character is more or less just in the planning stage right now.

2: If we have the Star-Lotus Ship, could we make it count as a stage ship with Vanguard Princess?

Not Really A Problem But Still Kinda Weird: Its still called Vanguard Princess

3: If I Disable All Safeties (the SFOH stance) and then activate cruising speed, am I going three times faster, or six (if you can't be in a stance whilst using cruising speed, how the hell does warp speed work)

4: Do landships, submarines and seaships still get five mu for every two Captain levels?

5: If I'm the Heir Apparant (pp rags to riches option), does my Royal Nanoarmour have full Hp, dr and all that stuff too?

6: If I'm a lady, do I need to have my boobs out to be shirtless, or is a bra fine?

7: The seventh tier of PARA-MAIL probably isn't meant to lose an accessory slot

1: Well, can you share with us what level and what's the rough campaign plot intro your DM gave?  :P

2: Yes, and I'm keeping the name since I like how it turned out.

3: They stack, but only four times as fast since in D&D, unless otherwise noted, a x3 multiplier and a x2 multiplier would result in a x4 multiplier (one is adding +200% and another +100% for a total of +300% movement speed).

4: Yes.

5: Yes.

6:
(click to show/hide)
7: Fixed, thanks!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 21, 2018, 05:37:54 AM
This is apparently from the SRD

"When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice)."

Hence, since the speed is measured in distance, I actually could be going six times faster.

If it makes you feel any better, at least you don't have a situation where the equation you thought was written as (carrying capacity) times 4 times X, where x is the number of times someone picked a certain option, was actually, under RAW, (carrying capacity) times 4 to the power of X, which is a real exploit I found in the Evolutionist homebrew, on the GitP forums.

Also, who exactly even can use the Terror Tactics and Neo Granzon schools? Right now, they seem to be schools with no pupils

Incidentally, should the Safari tactical option gain the choices of creating a PARA-MAIL or a BONTA-KUN?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2018, 10:36:53 AM
This is apparently from the SRD

"When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3 squares (adding 100% twice)."

Hence, since the speed is measured in distance, I actually could be going six times faster.
Hahaha, fair enough but added clause to the intro that any multipliers from this material will stack like said before to keep things a bit in check.  :P

Also, who exactly even can use the Terror Tactics and Neo Granzon schools? Right now, they seem to be schools with no pupils
As pointed in their intros, either can be swapped by any one school from the pilot classes that get them. Basic idea being that they can all of supers/reals/ship captain. Nevermind seems like I completely forgot to add that clause to those two, fixed now.  :blush

Incidentally, should the Safari tactical option gain the choices of creating a PARA-MAIL or a BONTA-KUN?

Done.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 21, 2018, 01:28:17 PM
1. That's bullshit and you know it

2. Since the wiki says this is intended for usage with Pathfinder, is a Stage Ship an artificial structure?

This
 is why that's a question; https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/harmonic-sage


3. Since you're seemingly down with just making whatever a feat, could we have a feat that makes our mechas start working according to the laws of physics again? :P

4: If I have the Star Lotus Ship, can I take Ship Captain feats?

5: How does a spaceship wield the Granzon Sword? Actually, considering the transform property, how do tanks and planes do it? Come to think of it, since Supers and Battleships can both use Into The Danger Zone, how do they kick?

Rocket punches are missiles shaped like fists, obviously.

6: The TOUHOU feat allows pilots to take Drunken Demon. I am PRETTY SURE a Mecha is heavy machinery, and thus, should NOT be piloted when drunk.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on August 21, 2018, 01:54:27 PM

2. Since the wiki says this is intended for usage with Pathfinder, is a Stage Ship an artificial structure?

This
 is why that's a question; https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/harmonic-sage


This isn't actually intended for pathfinder. We (the wiki people) provide a conversion because we prefer PF to 3.x and as such, yes, it counts.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2018, 07:47:59 PM
1. That's bullshit and you know it

2. Since the wiki says this is intended for usage with Pathfinder, is a Stage Ship an artificial structure?

This
 is why that's a question; https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/harmonic-sage


3. Since you're seemingly down with just making whatever a feat, could we have a feat that makes our mechas start working according to the laws of physics again? :P

4: If I have the Star Lotus Ship, can I take Ship Captain feats?

5: How does a spaceship wield the Granzon Sword? Actually, considering the transform property, how do tanks and planes do it? Come to think of it, since Supers and Battleships can both use Into The Danger Zone, how do they kick?

Rocket punches are missiles shaped like fists, obviously.

6: The TOUHOU feat allows pilots to take Drunken Demon. I am PRETTY SURE a Mecha is heavy machinery, and thus, should NOT be piloted when drunk.

1. If you think so, you can either explain why I shouldn't cover for obscure rule loopholes or just ask your DM to change it.

3.
Disclaimer about “Realism”
In space there is no atmosphere and gravity's effect is a lot weaker among other details.
However pretty much every action show/game doesn't care about that. You can hear lasers and explosions, while having your engine turned on at the same potency simply results in constant velocity and you need to turn on the turbo to go faster and when you turn off said turbo you lose speed despite no atmosphere to slow you down. That's even more true in SRWd20 games where Evangelions can just run in space and martial art robots can slam you against the void and don't care about the whole virtually zero weight factor.
Plus the purpose of SRW d20 is having mecha fun and not to be a physics simulator. Think of the catgirls. If a player at your table complains, just say it's because of magic/extremely advanced SCIENCE!
(https://i.imgsafe.org/ca/ca74e741d5.jpeg)

4. Yes.

5. Either a sword/boot shaped battering ram, the vehicle has servo arms like the ReHome from Gundam Seed Astray, or an hatch open and out comes a sword/boot.

6. Heavy machinery shouldn't be piloted by untrained underage kids/animals either, and that never stopped anybody in a mecha show. Also, Turn A Gundam does have drunken pilots at least.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 22, 2018, 02:10:18 AM
....

Okay fine I guess if this isn't a physics simulator it makes sense that things don't work according to physics

That being said, I would like to point out that this isn't a loophole, this is just straight up the basic rules of the game. Like, no disrespect, but I would hardly call the laws of physics of the game an "obscure loophole"

Incidentally, I am imagining a star lotus ship medbay as being staffed with Inchlings using attack on titan gear to bandage wounds. (or at least androids the size of inchlings)

Also what happens if I take humongous ship for my SLS?

Additionally, there seems to be no way to use the Lunar Dial maneuvers that need knives in a Mecha, despite it being a valid TOUHOU option, and Chinese Star is listed as a discipline you can take, but TOUHOU says you must fulfill all prerequisites, and the prerequisite for knowing Chinese Star is a feat that, itself, grants access to Chinese Star. I don't think having two black belts in Chinese Star is actually worth anything?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on August 22, 2018, 02:16:23 PM
New races, hooray!
Greater Aura Voice feat lets you learn Breath of Fire maneuvers. Can you use those in Aura Monster form?
Zentradi says that they're Colossal, but the Commander Type feat says that normally they're Gargantuan. Which is correct?
Darling Stamen & Pistil question: Lets say you roll a 6 on the d12 and have three relationship feats. Do you get 6 points (0 con drained, + 6 from DS&P) or 12 points (6 rolled + 6 from DS&P)?
Protodeviln don't have natural flight? What about Sivil?  :P
Also I just noticed that none of your races have a listed Favored Class. Is that intentional?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on August 22, 2018, 09:25:55 PM
Ooh, new races. You might want to make a few placeholder posts before I do a copyediting run =P. Also this inspired me to finish my Zero Two/Hiro/Strelizia builds since there's new stuff to swap in.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 23, 2018, 12:01:47 AM
....

Okay fine I guess if this isn't a physics simulator it makes sense that things don't work according to physics

That being said, I would like to point out that this isn't a loophole, this is just straight up the basic rules of the game. Like, no disrespect, but I would hardly call the laws of physics of the game an "obscure loophole"

It is obscure because combat statistics like damage follow one set of multipliers but other combat statistics like movement speed follow another set of multipliers.

Meanwhile D&D's basic "physics" do produce plenty of borked results like the loophole of selling walls of iron, flesh-to-saltified creatures and the ultimate combat strategy being just dropping really heavy objects from above which seemingly has 100% precision because it neither needs an attack roll nor allows a save.

So the point of adding that SRWd20 clause is precisely to reign in that crazy a bit. Full multiplications stack pretty damn fast, so it's better to play it safe.

Incidentally, I am imagining a star lotus ship medbay as being staffed with Inchlings using attack on titan gear to bandage wounds. (or at least androids the size of inchlings)
Now I'm picturing Angelic Layer healbot versions.

Also what happens if I take humongous ship for my SLS?
A really big nanoarmor.

Additionally, there seems to be no way to use the Lunar Dial maneuvers that need knives in a Mecha, despite it being a valid TOUHOU option, and Chinese Star is listed as a discipline you can take, but TOUHOU says you must fulfill all prerequisites, and the prerequisite for knowing Chinese Star is a feat that, itself, grants access to Chinese Star. I don't think having two black belts in Chinese Star is actually worth anything?

Good points, added some extra synergies for both.

New races, hooray!
Greater Aura Voice feat lets you learn Breath of Fire maneuvers. Can you use those in Aura Monster form?
Yes, clatrified.

Zentradi says that they're Colossal, but the Commander Type feat says that normally they're Gargantuan. Which is correct?
Colossal as they're supposed to be about 30 ft tall, fixed.

Darling Stamen & Pistil question: Lets say you roll a 6 on the d12 and have three relationship feats. Do you get 6 points (0 con drained, + 6 from DS&P) or 12 points (6 rolled + 6 from DS&P)?
12 points.

Protodeviln don't have natural flight? What about Sivil?  :P
Remind me, did all Protodeviln fly in Macross? I assumed she was getting that ability from class levels, otherwise I guess I can find a way to fit that in.

Also I just noticed that none of your races have a listed Favored Class. Is that intentional?

Lazyness plus I forgot favored classes even exist. But if you insist, added some. Also Musk Cat.

Ooh, new races. You might want to make a few placeholder posts before I do a copyediting run =P. Also this inspired me to finish my Zero Two/Hiro/Strelizia builds since there's new stuff to swap in.

Added placeholders, although feel free to discuss the races here too in this case. Also glad to hear those builds are still being worked on.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on August 23, 2018, 02:40:44 AM
Added placeholders, although feel free to discuss the races here too in this case. Also glad to hear those builds are still being worked on.

That may have been excessive... or do you really have that many races planned? :o

Anyway posted my races edits and the first quarter of the Franxx sheets.

Edit: But seriously, put placeholders on Traits, it's only a matter of time...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 23, 2018, 03:55:04 AM
1: Actually, thirty feet tall is Huge, not Collossal

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale

2: Allow me to clarify my previous question. If I am a ninth level Moon Vanguard, with a Star Lotus Ship, and I take the Humongous Ship feat, does this mean I can make my ship Huge and Enormous, Enormous being the next one up from collosal according to Gramarie, specifically Eldrikinetics, but not Gargantuan or Collosal?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 23, 2018, 04:17:32 AM
Added placeholders, although feel free to discuss the races here too in this case. Also glad to hear those builds are still being worked on.

That may have been excessive... or do you really have that many races planned? :o
There's quite a bit more from Phantasy Star alone I've got my eyes on:
-Motavians from IV, blue bird-like flightless humanoid aliens that are really good at scavenging for shiny stuff. +Wis/Con, -Int/Dex
-Dezorians from II and IV, green aliens with a connection to the divine and business. +Wis/Int, -Dex/Str.
-Beasts from Phantasy Star Universe, like Newmen but engineered for brawn over brains. +2 to physical of their choice, -2 Int.
-Duman from Phantasy Star Online II, mutants with horns, can go over limits at the cost of their own safety.
-Weaponoids from the PSOII mobile spin-off, combat chips that can manifest bodies of energy and directly integrate with a mecha's weapons. +Cha, -Wis

Would also like to do cyber-fairies from Mega-Man, aka beings of pure energy and data. Pseudo-ethereal. -Str, +to mental stat of choice.

There's also Saurians from the Dinossaur Empire (great physical boosts, natural weapons but extra vulnerable to beams?) and Half-Saurians (less physical boosts, no natural weapons but no beam vulnerability?) from Getter.

Anyway posted my races edits and the first quarter of the Franxx sheets.
Looking good so far.

Edit: But seriously, put placeholders on Traits, it's only a matter of time...
Done.

1: Actually, thirty feet tall is Huge, not Collossal

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale
Well Zentradi are supposed to be the size of a Valkyrie and a VALKYRIE is colossal, so Zentradi staying colossal. :P

2: Allow me to clarify my previous question. If I am a ninth level Moon Vanguard, with a Star Lotus Ship, and I take the Humongous Ship feat, does this mean I can make my ship Huge and Enormous

We prefer to call it Colossal+ around here.

But I see the problem, so added some extra text to Lotus Ship so that Humongous Ship increases the size limit you can go instead of jumping sizes.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 23, 2018, 05:41:02 AM
1: "plus another size at 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 19th Moon Vanguard levels."

Just to check, this is on top of the already there size increases?

2: It just hit me how kinda f-ed up using the Chrome option of Gate to Nowhere could be

"Hey, bro, I need some help over here"

"Sure thing brah, here's a self-destruct button!"

3: Why do ship captains not have the option to take traits or TOUHOU?

4: I now have decided that Zendrati pull off weird shit that would make people decide to stop drinking whenever they are witnessed doing anything reliant on size, such as grappling and making melee attacks at their full reach.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on August 23, 2018, 06:23:43 AM
Bipedal colossal creatures are indeed 60 feet tall, but those also are only 6 squares tall on the board thus 30 feet  :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 23, 2018, 08:31:28 AM
Again, sixty four feet tall.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 23, 2018, 08:58:19 AM
Fine, removed all height number references from Zentradi, they're simply colossal and everybody can decide how much that exactly is for themselves.

1: "plus another size at 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 19th Moon Vanguard levels."

Just to check, this is on top of the already there size increases?
From the Lotus feat, yes.

2: It just hit me how kinda f-ed up using the Chrome option of Gate to Nowhere could be

"Hey, bro, I need some help over here"

"Sure thing brah, here's a self-destruct button!"
Just as planned.

3: Why do ship captains not have the option to take traits or TOUHOU?
They can now.

4: I now have decided that Zendrati pull off weird shit that would make people decide to stop drinking whenever they are witnessed doing anything reliant on size, such as grappling and making melee attacks at their full reach.

That would explain why we don't see much drinking in any Macross series.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 24, 2018, 08:38:05 AM
Let's say I decided to take TOUHOU-Septette For The Dead. Not sure why I did this, even if I'm a vampire, it's not like Giant Robot's have blood to drink, but I did it anyway.

Then some asshole hits me, so I decide to use Divine Punishment "Young Demon Lord" to summon a demon to deal with that sh-t post-haste.

Is the demon mecha-scale?

Also, does vampire's web turn me into robot bats, or normal bats, and are the bats mecha scale, normal scale, or normal scale, but there's a f-ckton of them?

On a similar note, if I TOUHOU'd Doll Judgement, can I build the dolls using my Giant Robot?

Also, if I am a Battleship Captain when I'm Judging people with my Doll's, am I storing them in the normal transport hold, or do I have a special secret compartment for my weird giant dolls in the ship?

Additionally, what happens if I have been delving into Forbidden School's

Does the mecha show the signs too?

If I know Fate Of Sixty Years, does my robot gain green hair?

And more importantly

Does the hair look good?

What happens if I have Diabolic Wave or Marvelous Mount Oue, but I pilot a battleship? Or Fate Of Sixty Years for that matter?

Incidentally, Misteryous Millenium has maneuvers that rely on a bow and arrow, but it is also a valid TOUHOU choice.

And now that you have the Martial Machine feat...

Can a Moon Vanguard take that feat if she has, let's say, Burning Justice and Neo Granzon?

Does a MV even count as a pilot class enough to take Neo Granzon?

And should MVs be able to take TOUHOU, considering they are in imitations of Mechas?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 25, 2018, 01:09:15 PM
Moon Vanguards can already take Touhou Maneuvers by default, the feat is to allow access.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 26, 2018, 01:42:44 AM
Yeah, but what if I want more?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 26, 2018, 08:29:18 AM
I'd imagine you could take said feat or even the basic extra discipline feat from the Tome of Battle. The issue here is that Vanguard handles manuevers a little difference.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 26, 2018, 10:15:28 AM
1. Sure, sure

2. If you're talking about Martial Study, that ain't exactly the same as what I'm looking for...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 26, 2018, 11:12:08 PM
Let's say I decided to take TOUHOU-Septette For The Dead. Not sure why I did this, even if I'm a vampire, it's not like Giant Robot's have blood to drink, but I did it anyway.

Then some asshole hits me, so I decide to use Divine Punishment "Young Demon Lord" to summon a demon to deal with that sh-t post-haste.

Is the demon mecha-scale?
Yes.

Also, does vampire's web turn me into robot bats, or normal bats, and are the bats mecha scale, normal scale, or normal scale, but there's a f-ckton of them?
Mecha-scale "normal" bats.

On a similar note, if I TOUHOU'd Doll Judgement, can I build the dolls using my Giant Robot?
(https://i.imgsafe.org/35/359110a19e.jpeg)
Still need to be handcrafted.

Also, if I am a Battleship Captain when I'm Judging people with my Doll's, am I storing them in the normal transport hold, or do I have a special secret compartment for my weird giant dolls in the ship?
Up to the ship captain, some like to show their collection to any visitors, other prefer to hide them until needed.

Additionally, what happens if I have been delving into Forbidden School's

Does the mecha show the signs too?
Now they do.

If I know Fate Of Sixty Years, does my robot gain green hair?
They would gain hair-like radiators/cables coming out just from their head plating.

And more importantly

Does the hair look good?
It looks fabulous.

What happens if I have Diabolic Wave or Marvelous Mount Oue, but I pilot a battleship? Or Fate Of Sixty Years for that matter?
The battleship gains an Humanoid heraldry/figurehead.

Incidentally, Misteryous Millenium has maneuvers that rely on a bow and arrow, but it is also a valid TOUHOU choice.
Addded new BOW weapon property along a bunch of BOW arsenal weapons and BOW super upgrade and made them useable with Mysterious Millenium.

And now that you have the Martial Machine feat...

Can a Moon Vanguard take that feat if she has, let's say, Burning Justice and Neo Granzon?
Sure.

Does a MV even count as a pilot class enough to take Neo Granzon?
Updated MV with the most recent pilot schools.

And should MVs be able to take TOUHOU, considering they are in imitations of Mechas?
Done.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 27, 2018, 12:41:15 AM
1: So would I be making a Mecha scale doll with my normal human hands?

2: Incidentally, the hells an Agnis?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 27, 2018, 01:10:21 AM
1: So would I be making a Mecha scale doll with my normal human hands?

2: Incidentally, the hells an Agnis?

1: Yes, even kids have built full mechas with their own hands, a doll's much easier.

2: What the hell indeed, since it's one of the first weapons of the false prophet. (https://youtu.be/19HFbjIq7uk?t=58)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 27, 2018, 01:19:22 AM
Also, when I asked about storing dolls in the transport hold, to be a little more precise, I was asking if they took up space in the transport hold, but your awnser seems to indicate that they can Be put in the transport hold, but don't take up the transport capacity, is that right?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 27, 2018, 01:22:48 AM
Correct, they'll not count against the max number of mechas you can carry.

Self-reminder for a feat or something to allow battleships to deploy expendable squads of fighters.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 27, 2018, 01:32:37 AM
1: Is BOW an acronym, or are we just shouting BOW for no reason?

2: If I have dolls in my ship, and then I level up and get a new, bigger ship, do my dolls go up in size too?

2.5: This time around, I reconfigured my Star-Lotus Ship, do the dolls grow in this scenario?

3: Should Ideal Idol's  be able to take captain feats?

4: If I'm reloading my weapons, can I reload one I won in a Gamble (the spirit)

5: Can my battleship be a hollowed out asteroid even if I'm not a multi-classed einst queen?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 27, 2018, 01:36:59 PM
Suppose someone with a Hat of Disguise uses it to simulate Shirtless. Does it actually work?

If someone founds a school and makes their everyday clothes be the uniform, does it count as a school uniform outside of the school?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 27, 2018, 09:58:30 PM
1: Is BOW an acronym, or are we just shouting BOW for no reason?

2: If I have dolls in my ship, and then I level up and get a new, bigger ship, do my dolls go up in size too?

2.5: This time around, I reconfigured my Star-Lotus Ship, do the dolls grow in this scenario?

3: Should Ideal Idol's  be able to take captain feats?

4: If I'm reloading my weapons, can I reload one I won in a Gamble (the spirit)

5: Can my battleship be a hollowed out asteroid even if I'm not a multi-classed einst queen?

1: Ballistic Overdive Wire, clarified.

2: Yes, assume you had already been preparing the new, bigger dolls/ship in advance.

2.5: Yes.

3: No unless they multiclass.

4: Yes.

5: Asteroids are already mostly big chunks of metal so sure.

Suppose someone with a Hat of Disguise uses it to simulate Shirtless. Does it actually work?
No, it's not just how you look but also how you feel. Being actually Shirtless, feeling the air and sun in your bare skin, is a much more spiritually liberating experience.

If someone founds a school and makes their everyday clothes be the uniform, does it count as a school uniform outside of the school?

Although you can be creative with your school's uniforms, they still need to be unique enough to identify their wearers as students of that school. When seen in public the uniforms need to announce loud and clear "this is a student from Kuromaiken High".

And since you're here, at the top of my head a couple simple ways for mechas to gain True Seeing here are either the tier IV Hyper Scanner Accessory or the tier V Source Code Neo Skill from the Child Soldier trait (and all Neo Skill specifically benefit the mecha too).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 28, 2018, 12:08:03 PM
Hey, like I said on the OOC thread, I was fairly sure there was probably a way to do it on mecha scale, I just wasn't certain which.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 28, 2018, 01:23:09 PM
How does Improved Unarmed Strike work with mecha? I mean I'd imagine it's about the same, but shouldn't a mecha unarmed strike already have more base damage?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 28, 2018, 10:31:57 PM
Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 28, 2018, 11:51:44 PM
Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.
Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on August 29, 2018, 07:49:03 AM
I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 30, 2018, 01:10:13 PM
1: Hey, should a Lenz be a BOW, or is it too 'splodey for that?.

2: Can Martial Machine be used to take Ships Full Of Hope?

3: Can a moon vanguard use the Heats feat to Gattai with a mech?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 01, 2018, 08:43:07 AM
Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.
Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...
The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.

1: Hey, should a Lenz be a BOW, or is it too 'splodey for that?.

2: Can Martial Machine be used to take Ships Full Of Hope?

3: Can a moon vanguard use the Heats feat to Gattai with a mech?
1: Too splodey.
2: Yes.
3: Sure, why not.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 01, 2018, 01:34:42 PM
1: Does a nanoarmour possess the standard extras?

2: What happens if someone who Martial Machined Ships Full of Hope uses a maneuver that relys on something their Mecha doesn't have?

 (I assume: they are embarrassed and wonder why they even took that)

3: If I gattai my large Nano-Armour with a small Mecha, is the result Small, Medium or Huge?

4: If I TOUHOU'd Crystalized Silver, can my Mecha make an Icicle Weapon of anything in the Arsenal list, such as, for (incredibly stupid) example, an incendiary bomb?

5: If I'm a Mecha Mook, is my "GUNDAM" secretly a disguised (or not) Zaku?

6: Can a battleship fall prone?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 02, 2018, 01:11:18 AM
Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.
Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...
The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.



Not the best comparison, really. In Wing, Gundanium is such a ludicrously strong alloy that each of the Gundams can, and do, take on entire military bases by themselves, pretty much by dint of not taking damage from anything. I honestly can only remember Deathscythe being destroyed by enemy fire, and even then it was execution style...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 02, 2018, 03:33:23 AM
1: Does a nanoarmour possess the standard extras?

2: What happens if someone who Martial Machined Ships Full of Hope uses a maneuver that relys on something their Mecha doesn't have?

 (I assume: they are embarrassed and wonder why they even took that)

3: If I gattai my large Nano-Armour with a small Mecha, is the result Small, Medium or Huge?

4: If I TOUHOU'd Crystalized Silver, can my Mecha make an Icicle Weapon of anything in the Arsenal list, such as, for (incredibly stupid) example, an incendiary bomb?

5: If I'm a Mecha Mook, is my "GUNDAM" secretly a disguised (or not) Zaku?

6: Can a battleship fall prone?
1: Yes.

2: Error message shows up in the screen and nothing else happens.

3: Medium. A large nano-armor would still count as a diminutive mecha.

4: "incredibly stupid" is how Cirno rolls so yes.  :D

5: A Mass-produced GUNDAM is known as a GM (http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RGM-79_GM).
(https://i.imgsafe.org/60/608c037cea.jpeg)
In related news, there's also a Zero Assault Kabal Unity generic real.

6: Yes.

Going by G-Gundam's standard, the ultimate authority on giant robots using martial arts, basic kicking/punching on foot deals about the same damage as doing it on a mecha.
Does it? I mean, I don't recall the Rose Gundam or the Dragon Gundam doing more damage than anyone else in the show (well, excluding Domon, but he actually broke out the beam sabers sometimes), and those guys had actual weapons. The Maxter Gundam had "gloves" but that didn't seem to make its punches that much more effective...
The idea is that the pilot's personal skill is what matters most for unarmed combat, mecha or not. Domon can kick mechas even on foot, and applies his superior unarmed skillz in the God Gundam.

I mean what is this based on though? Everything else on mecha scale seems to do more damage (excluding certain special arsenal options). A super robot's initial weapon deals D10, and the example is a fist, though the fact it could be a blade means something too.

A quite reinforced fist like the Mazinger has.

But unarmed combat aren't just reinforced fists. Like Sekai (and his sister) can use any mecha's whole body for unarmed strikes even if they were not  designed for that.

If you try to use unarmed strike without the pilot knowing some great martial arts themselves, it's just not going to be very effective. Refer to Wing Gundam when a Leo breaks its fist trying to punch one of the protagonist mechas that doesn't even bother to react.



Not the best comparison, really. In Wing, Gundanium is such a ludicrously strong alloy that each of the Gundams can, and do, take on entire military bases by themselves, pretty much by dint of not taking damage from anything. I honestly can only remember Deathscythe being destroyed by enemy fire, and even then it was execution style...

Sandrock would've also went down if not ordered to self-destruct, and was ordered to self-destruct precisely because it was about to go down. And the new Taurus heavy beams posed a threat to the gundams, "executing" the Deathscythe was the way to show their power. And then there were the Virgos with even more firepower. Early story the gundams can tank lots of basic fire (even then they're being worn down, the protagonists, always running maintenance between battles), but when the Taurus and Virgos enter the scene the Gundams need to start doging to stay in one piece.

But the bigger point is, stone and metal are ludicrously strong compared to skin and meat, yet when the martial artists punches steel/rock, it's the steel/rock that breaks, not the martial artist's fist. Having the right skillz makes all the difference about what breaks on a hit.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 02, 2018, 01:13:43 PM
1: More to the point, how exactly would it work? Does it...roll over onto its side?

2: At this point, I would probably change that Tactical Option in Gat to Nowhere to say, that you can summon any Generic Real so that you don't have To keep going back like FUCK I FORGOT TO ADD ZAKUS or whatever.

3: Tangentially, what would a Qubley be?

4: I guess the parts to make it medium just...comes out of nowhere? (The Nano-Mecha Gattai)

5: Can custom funnel be take note multiple times, or do funnels only have a limited amount of space for modification?

6: If my Nano-Armour is in overdrive, are my bits Mecha-Size, normal size, or normal size, but also in overdrive. What happens if I run out of overdrive but my bits are still out?

6.5: What if I use Young Demon Lord? Am I summoning demonic Kaiju or normal demons, and if normal, do the demons still work on the usual scale, or do they get really pumped up by my energetic spirit?

7: Does putting my (still large) Nano-Armour in overdrive do anything for the gattai?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 02, 2018, 01:32:26 PM
Falls over and engines stall?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 03, 2018, 01:21:05 AM
1: More to the point, how exactly would it work? Does it...roll over onto its side?

2: At this point, I would probably change that Tactical Option in Gat to Nowhere to say, that you can summon any Generic Real so that you don't have To keep going back like FUCK I FORGOT TO ADD ZAKUS or whatever.

3: Tangentially, what would a Qubley be?

4: I guess the parts to make it medium just...comes out of nowhere? (The Nano-Mecha Gattai)

5: Can custom funnel be take note multiple times, or do funnels only have a limited amount of space for modification?

6: If my Nano-Armour is in overdrive, are my bits Mecha-Size, normal size, or normal size, but also in overdrive. What happens if I run out of overdrive but my bits are still out?

6.5: What if I use Young Demon Lord? Am I summoning demonic Kaiju or normal demons, and if normal, do the demons still work on the usual scale, or do they get really pumped up by my energetic spirit?

7: Does putting my (still large) Nano-Armour in overdrive do anything for the gattai?

1: Like Raineh said.

2: Good point.

3: A Z.A.K.U. with funnels?

4: Volume change doesn't imply mass change.

5: Unless the feat says otherwise, can only be taken once each.

6: Bits mecha-size while in overdrive, return to normal once overdrive ends.

6,5: Demonic Kaiju pumped up by your energetic spirit (note to self, finish that kaiju dimensional dinossaur class/prc).

7: No, only the base stats of the nano-armor would count.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 03, 2018, 03:17:19 AM
1: I was talking about volume change too.

2: I meant does the Nano-Armour being in overdrive during a gattai do anything size-wise.

3: "Pumped up" was meant to indicate that the demons would be the same size, but working on mecha scale, but this way's fine.

4: Can it be assumed that if a martial discipline has entered a pilot's known Disciplines, such as taking the Shanghai Teahouse feat, that it works like a pilot discipline, even if such a line isn't featured on the method of gaining the new maneuvers?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 03, 2018, 11:24:48 PM
Okay, I'm recovered (enough) from a severe allergy attack and I said that I would get more reviewing done before tomorrow so it's time to look at the Super Pilot!

Your skills aren't in alphabetical order, this threw me off.  It isn't a big deal but I wanted to point it out because I was wondering why Intimidate wasn't a class skill until I found it.

So it looks like a Real Robot is equivalent to a Super Robot that already spent upgrade points.  Can you change upgrades when you change arsenal or are they permanent? 

Also, looking around it looks like information about when Arsenal can be changed is only in the Real Pilot class entry.  I'd suggest moving it to the Arsenal section, Paradox Prototype talks about changing arsenal.

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

Super Robot Upgrades

Alien Alloy says that you get Reinforced +1.  What is that?

Transform is missing a picture (not that you don't have enough pictures....)

Great Agility feels meh (unless you have natural armor bypassing stuff).

Cutting Plasma Field is also missing a picture.

The last sentence of King Frame confuses me.

Berserk button doesn't say it is mutually exclusive with hyperdimensional storage.  Is this intentional?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 04, 2018, 01:21:30 AM
Quote
I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

It keeps changing, but supers seem to tend to be really good at specialising but aren't so versatile once actually built as the general gist of it. Haven't looked hard at how Reals are balanced right now.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 02:36:07 AM
1: I was talking about volume change too.

2: I meant does the Nano-Armour being in overdrive during a gattai do anything size-wise.

3: "Pumped up" was meant to indicate that the demons would be the same size, but working on mecha scale, but this way's fine.

4: Can it be assumed that if a martial discipline has entered a pilot's known Disciplines, such as taking the Shanghai Teahouse feat, that it works like a pilot discipline, even if such a line isn't featured on the method of gaining the new maneuvers?

1: The idea is more that both mecha and nano-armor split and the pieces re-organize themselves in something that fills a bigger volume with lower density.

2: No, a nano-armor and mecha in Heat(s) do not benefit from overdrive.

3: To clarify, a normal large demon would come out mecha large.

4: I can't make a full general clause since if you're gaining maneuvers from taking actual non-pilot initiator levels then they're limited by the recovery mechanism of that class instead. So added a clause with that exception to the intro thread mecha maneuvers section.

Okay, I'm recovered (enough) from a severe allergy attack and I said that I would get more reviewing done before tomorrow so it's time to look at the Super Pilot!

Your skills aren't in alphabetical order, this threw me off.  It isn't a big deal but I wanted to point it out because I was wondering why Intimidate wasn't a class skill until I found it.
They're by alphabetical order by the Earth Federation's standard of mecha century 178 Re-organized.

So it looks like a Real Robot is equivalent to a Super Robot that already spent upgrade points.  Can you change upgrades when you change arsenal or are they permanent? 
They can't change by themselves but a Ship Captain can pick up a feat to do it.

Also, looking around it looks like information about when Arsenal can be changed is only in the Real Pilot class entry.  I'd suggest moving it to the Arsenal section, Paradox Prototype talks about changing arsenal.
Hmmm, the Super Pilot's arsenal says "At 4th level, the super robot gains some kind of patronage which supplies an array of basic swappable weapons and accessories to further customize his mecha, although not as good as those of a Real Pilot. He may only choose weapons of up to the level indicated on the Super Pilot table (I at level 4, II at level 7, ect). Those weapons can be reloaded and/or swapped whenever the patronage entity is contacted. "


Idea being that a real swaps their arsenal at allied military bases and a super swaps their arsenal contacting the crazy scientist or the shady organization with their own agenda.

I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.
As Raineh said, it fluctuated quite a bit but the current version didn't get any big complains. Supers can get superior base stats, but the reals get higher arsenal access and more hardpoints/arsenal space which gives them plenty of toys to pimp their rides.

Super Robot Upgrades

Alien Alloy says that you get Reinforced +1.  What is that?
One of the mecha base special properties from the intro, gives chance to ignore pilot damage from crits to the mecha.

Transform is missing a picture (not that you don't have enough pictures....)
No such thing as enough pictures! :P

Great Agility feels meh (unless you have natural armor bypassing stuff).
There's still touch spells around and some maneuvers making touch attacks.

Cutting Plasma Field is also missing a picture.
Replacement in place.

The last sentence of King Frame confuses me.
You can only have one of Great One/Tek Knight/Zero Pattern to pick King Frame, and the last sentence is to stop the pilot from picking up the others after picking King Frame.

Berserk button doesn't say it is mutually exclusive with hyperdimensional storage.  Is this intentional?
Yes, E(arth) V(ector) A(rtificial)s are known to carry quite a bit of guns after all.

Thanks for continuing the review! :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 04, 2018, 05:22:19 AM
1: Yeah, I got that, don't worry

2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on September 04, 2018, 04:11:24 PM
I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

My group has commented on this before. Thanks to accessories, Real Robots massively beat out Super Robots in basically every stat. I've got spreadsheets (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IZfe43HrVDnAVwaWMwG93U1J_3j5PbU4XpGoL-gCbb8/edit?usp=sharing) that show, for example, AC and To-Hit bonus, and the difference  (specifically for AC, though To-hit is also consistently higher) is laughable. As an example, if we look at level 12, a super robot will have AC 35 and To-Hit bonus of +19. Most tier 3 real robots (unlocked at level 9!) with relevant accessories have 41 AC and ~+19 To-Hit. The DR on the reals is lower (topping out at 24 at that level vs the 37 of a super), but this is on a level just before a grade improvement, which makes it one of the least efficient levels possible for a real. If we look at the next level, when Reals gain grade 4, the Supers will only improve their To-Hit bonus by one (to +20), and have the same AC (35), while the reals go up to ~+21 To-Hit, and have AC ranging from 35 at the lowest (Huckbein mk3 Boxer) to as much as *52* (Randgriz).

The issue that I have with the whole thing is that some of the named real robots (not the generics, those are fine) have superior stats to everything else in the system, even among reals. As an example, if we look at the top tier of real robots, we get the Astrangant and the Alegrias. If you select accessories for them to maximize their AC/To-Hit, you end up with +33 To-Hit and 79 AC on the former vs +35 To-Hit and 53 AC on the latter. That's more than a full d20 of difference between their ACs for only 2 points of To-Hit.

As a side note, this leads to a gripe I have with the spirit Strike where it's a Real Robot spirit, but all pilots can only hit Reals on a 20 without it, thus making Supers the inferior choice because they have to pay more to be able to reasonably do damage.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 04, 2018, 05:16:07 PM
I made a spreadsheet like that at one point but at some levels it balanced out, though I can't remember if that was factoring in the various great X upgrades.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on September 04, 2018, 05:17:38 PM
2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?

Arcane Pilot who wants bottomless magic.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 04, 2018, 07:10:21 PM
On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Heavy, Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Heavy, Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Edit: Also, at level 19 the Real can twin-link the Sledgehammer and upgrade to the Alteisen Riese, which has better defensive stats than the Super in every way and speed 125mu.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
I have no idea if Real Robots are equivalent to Super Robots, I really don't have time to stat some up and I know this has been playtested so I'm going to assume that if there was a big discrepancy that someone would have hopefully said something.  Off-hand Super Robots look better but I could be missing something related to arsenal space/hardpoints since I haven't gotten there yet.

My group has commented on this before. Thanks to accessories, Real Robots massively beat out Super Robots in basically every stat. I've got spreadsheets (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IZfe43HrVDnAVwaWMwG93U1J_3j5PbU4XpGoL-gCbb8/edit?usp=sharing) that show, for example, AC and To-Hit bonus, and the difference  (specifically for AC, though To-hit is also consistently higher) is laughable. As an example, if we look at level 12, a super robot will have AC 35 and To-Hit bonus of +19. Most tier 3 real robots (unlocked at level 9!) with relevant accessories have 41 AC and ~+19 To-Hit. The DR on the reals is lower (topping out at 24 at that level vs the 37 of a super), but this is on a level just before a grade improvement, which makes it one of the least efficient levels possible for a real. If we look at the next level, when Reals gain grade 4, the Supers will only improve their To-Hit bonus by one (to +20), and have the same AC (35), while the reals go up to ~+21 To-Hit, and have AC ranging from 35 at the lowest (Huckbein mk3 Boxer) to as much as *52* (Randgriz).

The issue that I have with the whole thing is that some of the named real robots (not the generics, those are fine) have superior stats to everything else in the system, even among reals. As an example, if we look at the top tier of real robots, we get the Astrangant and the Alegrias. If you select accessories for them to maximize their AC/To-Hit, you end up with +33 To-Hit and 79 AC on the former vs +35 To-Hit and 53 AC on the latter. That's more than a full d20 of difference between their ACs for only 2 points of To-Hit.
Are you using the top armor/shields for the reals max values with AC? Seems like so since the Astrangant starts at +20 and you claim it caps at +79, the difference is covered by Fortress Z.O. Armor (+21), Artificial Aegis (+21) and Advanced AI (+7) for the extra +49.

But thing is, Fortress armors don't allow you to to benefit from any Dex or Dodge bonus. So right there the Astragant loses 18 AC between its base Dodge and AI not doing anything to AC plus can't add Dex. Then there's all the other penalties of the top armor/shields. Halved movement speed and only one weapon/maneuver per round in particular means you may be hard to hit but you're not going anywhere very fast and tactical possibilities are severly limited (like if you use a Strike maneuver, you won't be able to use any Counter maneuver, and if you use a big weapon can't use any Defensive weapons and so on).

As a side note, this leads to a gripe I have with the spirit Strike where it's a Real Robot spirit, but all pilots can only hit Reals on a 20 without it, thus making Supers the inferior choice because they have to pay more to be able to reasonably do damage.
Besides super maneuvers that work as Touch attacks, the Super Pilot also gets more spirit points and have upgrades for even higher spirit regen.

2: What would even be the point of taking love-coloured magic with TOUHOU?

Arcane Pilot who wants bottomless magic.
My idea was more for a multiclass character.

On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Or the Super Pilot could just take the Missile Body stance that at PL 16 grants 32d12 Heavy Missiles and grant the properties with a fraction of the upgrades. And the Super Pilot does get more stances/maneuvers than the Real, then can further buff them through Favored Maneuver.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 04, 2018, 07:59:29 PM
I guess I decided that I didn't need to read the Super Pilot class features since they didn't have any and missed arsenal swapping.  That's fine then.

Referencing stuff in the intro post is fine too, I forgot to look there.

On King Frame, do you want people to not get other options in general or just not have King Frame apply to additional choices?

I'm glad I started the super vs real robot conversation with the math geeks.  I fail at math geeking, it's just soooo much work and I hate statistics so much...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 04, 2018, 08:00:42 PM
On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Or the Super Pilot could just take the Missile Body stance that at PL 16 grants 32d12 Heavy Missiles and grant the properties with a fraction of the upgrades. And the Super Pilot does get more stances/maneuvers than the Real, then can further buff them through Favored Maneuver.

I left out maneuvers since those end up pretty much comparable at the end. The Super gets only one maneuver and stance more than the Real, which doesn't help if we're comparing "best options". I couldn't find a maneuver that benefits enough from Favored Maneuver to outright beat things a Real can do. For example, the Real has equal access to Missile Massacre, and that's a stance so Favored Maneuver doesn't apply. Combine that with Careful Aim (ignore DR) and now at level 19 anyone can do more damage on average than the base HP of anything in the system (even alt!) other than maybe a hilariously minmaxed Machinery Warrior.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 08:21:03 PM
On King Frame, do you want people to not get other options in general or just not have King Frame apply to additional choices?
Not get the other options in general.

On Supers vs Reals, Reals also get damage growth on weapons that's comparable to or better than Supers, with far fewer compromises/relative investment in resources.

For example, at level 16 a real pilot gains access to Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI), which does 22d12 base damage for an average of 149.5 with Disarming, Downfall, Brutal, Pushing, and range 75mu.

To match that weapon a Super must take: Combined paired weapon (2 points), growth x4 to Colossal (4 points), Great Power (4 points), King Frame (4 points), Emperor Frame (4 points), Dynamic (1 point), Versatile x2 (2 points), and Mighty x2 (2 points). That's a total of 23 upgrade points, or 5 and 3/4 levels worth.

Total: 2d10+16d6+76 damage base, spending 10EN for +12dmg more, averaging 149.5. It has Disarming, Pushing, and Brutal (can't get Downfall). It's better in some ways - EN cost 10 instead of only two ammo, and 100 mu range instead of 75mu. On the downside it lacks the +11 to-hit bonus of the Sledgehammer.

The thing is, the Super used more than 1/3 of all its upgrade points. It now has a base speed of 5mu due to Great Power, King, and Emperor. It also no longer has access to some of the options described by CKirk to have reasonable AC, and it lost even more to-hit and AC due to Growth.

Compare AshSaber, which has enough Arsenal space to equip the Sledgehammer and speed 65mu, without using any of its 5 hardpoints.

Or the Super Pilot could just take the Missile Body stance that at PL 16 grants 32d12 Heavy Missiles and grant the properties with a fraction of the upgrades. And the Super Pilot does get more stances/maneuvers than the Real, then can further buff them through Favored Maneuver.

I left out maneuvers since those end up pretty much comparable at the end. The Super gets only one maneuver and stance more than the Real, which doesn't help if we're comparing "best options". I couldn't find a maneuver that benefits enough from Favored Maneuver to outright beat things a Real can do. For example, the Real has equal access to Missile Massacre, and that's a stance so Favored Maneuver doesn't apply. Combine that with Careful Aim (ignore DR) and now at level 19 anyone can do more damage on average than the base HP of anything in the system (even alt!) other than maybe a hilariously minmaxed Machinery Warrior.

What if Favored Maneuver could apply to Stances? What if Favored Maneuver's bonus was increased?

Also Missile Body still needs to hit but lacks a basic to-hit bonus, so the Super Robot will have better acuraccy with Targeter, then there's your usual Defend/Guard/Invulnerability extra defenses. Plus the PL 19 option costs 180 energy to shoot, meaning most reals can't use it at all.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 04, 2018, 09:02:58 PM
Suggested change on King Frame for clarification (added "only one of" to first sentence and rephrased last sentence for clarification):


King Frame: You need pilot level 8 plus only one of either Great One, Tek Knight, or Zero Pattern to pick this, it costs 4 points and you can only pick it once. Double the numeric effects of your previous choice, including any penalties, except for any extra effects based on size (or pilot level in the case of of Zero Pattern). So for example if your previous choice was Great One (Plating), you would gain +40 HP, +4 DR, +4 Natural armor regardless of size, and your Dodge bonus would be further halved, resulting in being 1/3 of its original value. You also gain +1 IL/PL to initiating maneuvers both you and your super robot know. Once you've picked this you can't gain Great One/Tek Knight/Zero Pattern outside of the choice you made to apply King Frame to.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 04, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
I mean with a super, so far in my experience hitting things hasn't been my biggest issue. It's been surviving a hit.

Though... 35 STR gestalt, so take that value with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 10:24:23 PM
Reduced the Astranagant's hardpoints to 2 since it already gets two special properties base.

Suggested change on King Frame for clarification (added "only one of" to first sentence and rephrased last sentence for clarification):


King Frame: You need pilot level 8 plus only one of either Great One, Tek Knight, or Zero Pattern to pick this, it costs 4 points and you can only pick it once. Double the numeric effects of your previous choice, including any penalties, except for any extra effects based on size (or pilot level in the case of of Zero Pattern). So for example if your previous choice was Great One (Plating), you would gain +40 HP, +4 DR, +4 Natural armor regardless of size, and your Dodge bonus would be further halved, resulting in being 1/3 of its original value. You also gain +1 IL/PL to initiating maneuvers both you and your super robot know. Once you've picked this you can't gain Great One/Tek Knight/Zero Pattern outside of the choice you made to apply King Frame to.
Edited in, thanks. :)

I mean with a super, so far in my experience hitting things hasn't been my biggest issue. It's been surviving a hit.

Though... 35 STR gestalt, so take that value with a grain of salt.
An important point, there's plenty of extra sources for to-hit bonus in D&D for a pilot and not as many AC bonus. Bab for starters.

I think it's because it's spell completion but I don't have the rules compendium handy.

"These abilities can be activated by sacrificing 1 or 2 (delete as appropriate) spells of the indicated spell level. All caster level effects use the caster level of the class granting this ability (minimum CL1). Saving throws are equal to 10+(level of slot sacrificed)+ABILITY SCORE MODIFIER. Activating these abilities takes a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell."

Something like that? Then just format them as spell blocks like normal.
What's sacrificing a spell slot? Is it permanent?

What about SR? Spell Focus? What about all the other effects that specifically only work for spells like Spell Turning, metamagic, etc?

Basically they're supposed to work just like spells except only the Magitech Knight (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18232.0) herself can use them, so that may just be me but it's easier to write the relevant exception than list down all the similarities.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 04, 2018, 10:38:25 PM
Hm, let's see...

"These abilities can be activated by rendering 1 or 2 (delete as appropriate) prepared spells of the indicated spell level impossible to cast until the caster next rests for eight hours. All caster level effects use the caster level of the class granting this ability (minimum CL1). Saving throws are equal to 10+(level of slot sacrificed)+ABILITY SCORE MODIFIER. They are modified by the caster's feats and abilities as if they were a spell, such as spell penetration, but are subject to spell resistance and any benefits that the target may have against spells. Activating these abilities takes a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity as if casting a spell."

Either metamagic can't be applied or it's another paragraph saying you need to use X spells of the higher level uncastable, plus the normal spontaneous caster restriction of taking a fullround action (you ARE spontaneously applying metamagic).

Yes, it's a wordy thing, but it's still easier than trying to close every spell access loophole in the system.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 10:59:30 PM
Thanks, applied with a few tweaks to cover bits like not all Saint Scripts allow for SR. And I let the no-item clause just in case, redundancy never hurt anybody.

Also in second thought metamagic needs not apply so that's an added bonus.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 04, 2018, 11:46:09 PM
What if Favored Maneuver could apply to Stances? What if Favored Maneuver's bonus was increased?

Huh, somehow I thought there was a class with "Favored Stance". Wonder how that got into my head.

I think Favored Maneuver is fine honestly. The fact that it can't hold up to some heavy weapons is a problem with those weapons, not with Favored Maneuver. For example, if Favored Maneuver had increased effect, Unlimited Blade Works would become way too powerful. (That's already on the higher end for damage output - on a target above Large it's arguably already too powerful, potentially doing high double digits of d12s). Please don't nerf that one though because it's the only way my super can keep up in damage with the rest of the party these days.

I personally prefer balance by bringing the top down and the bottom up, rather than just bringing things up to the top. The problem here isn't that many things are too weak, but that a few things (certain heavy weapons, a few top-level reals, and some maneuvers and stances) are too strong.

Also Missile Body still needs to hit but lacks a basic to-hit bonus, so the Super Robot will have better acuraccy with Targeter

The to-hit improvement from Targeting ends up more or less breaking even with the bonus from Dual Sensor and its successors (Except T-Link sensor), with the exception that those take a swift to get the full benefit. I don't find that pairing problematic. Plus the previously mentioned issue of reals just ending up with more AC ends up cancelling that out. At some point you're almost better off skipping to-hit increases entirely and going all in on things to increase SP for more uses of Strike and Focus.

then there's your usual Defend/Guard/Invulnerability extra defenses.
Those are pretty much even all around too, though.

Plus the PL 19 option costs 180 energy to shoot, meaning most reals can't use it at all.

That's fair, with Hyper Generator only Alegrias, RapieCage, and Astranagant can use that among the high-tier Reals. It takes 8 points for a typical Super to have enough energy (either 8 battery, tek reactor + 4 battery, or tek reactor + King). Pilot traits can also make that attainable, but that's a different conversation.

I mean with a super, so far in my experience hitting things hasn't been my biggest issue. It's been surviving a hit.

Though... 35 STR gestalt, so take that value with a grain of salt.

My Super is up around 30 Str these days. I can eventually hit things as a Super after a few rounds of building up Predict + a Yell, though it takes longer if they have Predict as well. Prevail is also helpful there, but that cancels itself out if the target also has it. That's where Unlimited Blade Works, Chest Blaster, etc. come in. The frustrating part is that the Reals don't have to jump through the same hoops. Surviving hits is tough sometimes, but I invested hard in Reinforced and took Enduring Code, so I'm at least not in constant danger of getting massively overkilled, just incapacitated every so often.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2018, 12:01:06 AM
Oh wait, 40 STR. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9779.msg159191#msg159191) Still, odd to balance for, since when this was made I was thinking Gunbuster and nowadays a lot more Getter Robo got into it, so exploding is almost expected.

And some G Gundam in that Born to Fight temporarily makes her tougher than the mecha... :lmao
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 05, 2018, 12:28:38 AM
What if Favored Maneuver could apply to Stances? What if Favored Maneuver's bonus was increased?

Huh, somehow I thought there was a class with "Favored Stance". Wonder how that got into my head.

I think Favored Maneuver is fine honestly. The fact that it can't hold up to some heavy weapons is a problem with those weapons, not with Favored Maneuver. For example, if Favored Maneuver had increased effect, Unlimited Blade Works would become way too powerful. (That's already on the higher end for damage output - on a target above Large it's arguably already too powerful, potentially doing high double digits of d12s). Please don't nerf that one though because it's the only way my super can keep up in damage with the rest of the party these days.

I personally prefer balance by bringing the top down and the bottom up, rather than just bringing things up to the top. The problem here isn't that many things are too weak, but that a few things (certain heavy weapons, a few top-level reals, and some maneuvers and stances) are too strong.

Ok, can you please list those "few things" that you consider too strong and the middle point that you consider would be ideal?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 05, 2018, 12:43:16 AM
Why aren't they called "Magitechniques"!?  :lmao
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2018, 01:17:25 AM
Realised there's one thing I failed to edit:

"Saving throws are equal to 10+(level of spells rendered impossible to cast)+ABILITY SCORE MODIFIER"
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 05, 2018, 02:35:28 AM
Ok, can you please list those "few things" that you consider too strong and the middle point that you consider would be ideal?

OK, I'll do it in stages since there's a lot to cover and I need to do things like sleep. Chances are other members of our group will have more examples.

Arsenal Weapons:

The main Arsenal issue is that Heavy weapons tend to have just too much damage output, particularly at high tiers. The one not-fun thing I want to avoid is a situation where almost any character is nigh-guaranteed to die instantly to any crit, with even Defend or barriers not giving a good chance to survive. At higher levels it gets easier to restore energy, so the higher EN costs for many of them have less balance impact within their tier.

This is exacerbated by Arsenal weapon linking. Early on being able to double/triple etc. a given weapon isn't so bad, because the results are comparable to the weapons of the following tier. At the higher tiers linking ends up being much powerful because the difference in damage between tiers is so far away from linear. This is less of a problem with weapons that cost energy since those still cost the same energy to use per-shot, even linked. Ammo weapons not having this restriction makes them significantly better for linking. For balance reasons I'd rather both types have the behavior of energy weapons, but I can't think of a logical way to express that for ammo weapons. The other way to deal with that would be to treat ammo as less significant than energy as a way to balance a weapon, but that would make ammo weapons underpowered within their own tiers. I don't have a good solution for that, honestly.

Something I consider a well-balanced heavy arsenal weapon is Graviton Cannon (beam)(VII). It has solid damage, a great crit, good specials, and fairly high costs. The difference from the others is that the lower base damage makes the crit merely very scary instead of utterly terrifying and isn't a nigh-guaranteed instagib on a pilot. Another good one is Rectangular Launcher (III), which has a good mix of damage, to-hit bonus, crit, and specials without being an answer to everything.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 05, 2018, 04:01:54 AM
Realised there's one thing I failed to edit:

"Saving throws are equal to 10+(level of spells rendered impossible to cast)+ABILITY SCORE MODIFIER"
Thanks, added.

Why aren't they called "Magitechniques"!?  :lmao

They are now.  :P

Ok, can you please list those "few things" that you consider too strong and the middle point that you consider would be ideal?

OK, I'll do it in stages since there's a lot to cover and I need to do things like sleep. Chances are other members of our group will have more examples.

Arsenal Weapons:
  • FXA-03M2 Hyper Mega Launcher (III) - Comparable in damage to the other T3 Heavy weapons, but wide crit range and special properties make it just too good. Suggestion: Reduce damage.
  • High Mega Cannon (IV) - This has the same base damage as the GN Buster Beam Sword (IV), but it's ranged, costs less energy, has a better crit, and takes up less than half the space. It's volatile and has three less to-hit bonus, but I don't think that makes up for its raw power. Suggestion: Increase space and energy cost.
  • Hv Ruin Cannon (V) - This series of weapons (the light/medium/heavy cannon trio) works at lower levels, but the multiplication means that at the highest levels the heavy variants are too much. Suggestion: Reduce damage and ammo.
  • Hv Orphan Cannon (VI) - This has a typo - I assume it's meant to be 20d10 currently. See Hv Ruin Cannon. Suggestion: Reduce damage and ammo.
  • Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles (VI) - Incredibly high damage even by Heavy weapon standards. The limit of two ammo and high space requirement mitigate it somewhat, but it still seems too powerful in raw numbers. As an ammo weapon, it's also affordable to twin-link. Suggestion: Reduce damage and space taken.
  • Hv Neo Cannon (VII) - See Hv Ruin Cannon. Suggestion: Reduce damage and ammo.
  • Satellite Cannon (VII) - Super high damage, long range increment, incredible crit, great specials, only ten space. Suggestion: Reduce the damage, keep the crit range and specials so it's still special. Increase space.
  • Anti-Matter Blade (VII) - Damage almost as high as Satellite Cannon. Crazy crit range. Same suggestion as Satellite Cannon: Less damage, more space.
  • Moon Class Hypermissiles (VII) - The highest damage arsenal weapon by dice, though 20/x2 crit makes it less egregious than the previous ones. This one seems mostly balanced by the space requirements. Suggestion: Less damage, but still higher than the other T7 Heavy weapons.
-Reduced FXA-03M2 Hyper Mega Launcher damage from 10d12 to 10d10 (average 65 to 55), just a bit higher than the rectangular launcher's 49,5.
-High Mega Cannon's energy cost increased to 55 from 30, arsenal space to 12 from 8. Takes less space than buster sword but still over half more expensive to use plus still volatile.
-Hv Ruin Cannon damage decreased from 20d10 to 16d10 (average 110 to 88), and ammo reduced from 10 to 6.
-Hv orphan Cannon damage changed to 20d10, ammo reduced from 11 to 7.
-Sledgehammer anti-ship missiles damage reduced from 23d12 to 18d12 (average 149,5 to 117), arsenal space changed from 22 to 17.
- Hv Neo Cannon damage decrease from 32d10 to 28d10 (average 176 to 154), ammo decrease from 12 to 8. A damage bonus of +40% over the Graviton Cannon but it's still a 20 space weapon with basic crit and only Rending for specials, contrasting with the Graviton Cannon's half arsenal space, much better crit (should now deal more damage in a crit besides higher chance of scoring them) and several specials.

The main Arsenal issue is that Heavy weapons tend to have just too much damage output, particularly at high tiers. The one not-fun thing I want to avoid is a situation where almost any character is nigh-guaranteed to die instantly to any crit, with even Defend or barriers not giving a good chance to survive. At higher levels it gets easier to restore energy, so the higher EN costs for many of them have less balance impact within their tier.
Well at high-tiers getting crit resistance/immunity also becomes easier too.

This is exacerbated by Arsenal weapon linking. Early on being able to double/triple etc. a given weapon isn't so bad, because the results are comparable to the weapons of the following tier. At the higher tiers linking ends up being much powerful because the difference in damage between tiers is so far away from linear. This is less of a problem with weapons that cost energy since those still cost the same energy to use per-shot, even linked. Ammo weapons not having this restriction makes them significantly better for linking. For balance reasons I'd rather both types have the behavior of energy weapons, but I can't think of a logical way to express that for ammo weapons. The other way to deal with that would be to treat ammo as less significant than energy as a way to balance a weapon, but that would make ammo weapons underpowered within their own tiers. I don't have a good solution for that, honestly.
A key disadvantage of going too deep with twin-linked weapons is that most maneuvers that allow to use a weapon allow only one weapon, so it may pay off to have a single weapon with high damage rather than two that technically have higher combined damage but can't be combined with a strike at the same time. Also notice that right now anything over twin-linked also means they can't ignore any DR at all.

At the top of my head I could also make twin/x-weapons unable to benefit from precision damage like multi-shot.

As for the balance between energy and ammo, although true that ammo is better for twin/x-linking, the thing with ammo is that it doesn't recharge passively, and several reload effects only reload one gun at a time. That's why I advise the use of mook waves to wear down party resources. I've also toyed with the idea of alternate more gritty campaign rules where recharging resources would be harder and thus energy-based attacks would be more valued.

Something I consider a well-balanced heavy arsenal weapon is Graviton Cannon (beam)(VII). It has solid damage, a great crit, good specials, and fairly high costs. The difference from the others is that the lower base damage makes the crit merely very scary instead of utterly terrifying and isn't a nigh-guaranteed instagib on a pilot. Another good one is Rectangular Launcher (III), which has a good mix of damage, to-hit bonus, crit, and specials without being an answer to everything.

Thank you very much for the detailed-analysis, I took those in account when tweaking the values above. Hope we can continue this way.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 06, 2018, 05:19:10 PM
I'm on my phone and don't want to try and find the final writeup for magitechniques, but it might be easier to just call the spell-like abilities that are activated by expending spell slots.

That will automatically take care or rules interactions like AoOs and SR.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 06, 2018, 05:30:03 PM
I'm on my phone and don't want to try and find the final writeup for magitechniques, but it might be easier to just call the spell-like abilities that are activated by expending spell slots.

That will automatically take care or rules interactions like AoOs and SR.

You can have SLAs that don't correspond to actual spells? Rarely looked deep in monster stats to check, thought all non-spells were su. I wouldn't have included that part if it weren't for the implication that there must exist a corresponding spell and thus items with it and thus it stops being class exclusive.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 06, 2018, 05:55:02 PM
I'm 99% sure that there are monsters with unique spell-like abilities.

Even then, you could say something like "for the purposes of this class ability, treat magitechniques as spell-like abilities with a standard action activation".

What class is it in? I'll suggest a cleaned up version.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 06, 2018, 06:22:26 PM
Magitechniques are from the Magitech Knight (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18232.0), thanks.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 06, 2018, 06:24:02 PM
Okay, I'll look at it when I'm not on my phone and editing is easier.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 06, 2018, 08:40:06 PM
Ok, can you please list those "few things" that you consider too strong and the middle point that you consider would be ideal?

Peace Princess: The only really problematic feature of Peace Princess is the Royal Champion (and higher) Rags to Riches ability chain.

Even given the defense-only restriction on the Champions, it's crazy that a Peace Princess can get a cohort up to two levels above her own (four levels higher than a cohort provided by the Leadership feat!) I would recommend reducing this to at most the Princess's own level, except Queen allows it to go up to 21. The new version would read:
Quote
Royal Champion-You gain a Real Pilot Cohort that can only take Pilot feats and places your protection above everything else to the point of not starting fights unless absolutely necessary, meaning they won't willing go further away than 30 mu from you neither will they attack/hinder an enemy unless they try to attack you first or the champion themselves. The Royal Champion is level 3 or the Peace Princess's level, whichever is lower. You can take this multiple times, each one increasing the Royal Champion's max level by 1, up to 6. If Lost, it takes 1d12 days to get a replacement. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.

I would also recommend making each tier of Champion explicitly depend on maxing out the one below. For example, you can only take Great Champion if you have taken Royal Champion four times. Higher tiers specifically allow increasing the level of the existing Champion further. (If this is already meant to be the case, please make it more clear in the text). Taking into account the suggested change above, Great Champion would read:
Quote
Great Champion - You must have picked Royal Champion four times to pick this. Increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 per pick, up to a maximum of 9. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.
Queen would read:
Quote
Queen: At 20th level the Peace Princess gains another two Rags to Royalty abilities of any level, which may be changed 1/day at her whim as a free action. If the Peace Princess has a Champion of level 20, picking one of the Champion abilities may raise the Champion's max level to 21, regardless of the Peace Princess's own level. The 21st level is in Super Pilot.

I also want to suggest a sorta-buff to the Champion ability: synergy with Leadership. This would be Leadership increasing the maximum Champion level without another pick. Modified with this suggestion, Royal Champion would read:
Quote
Royal Champion - You gain a Real Pilot Cohort that can only take Pilot feats and places your protection above everything else to the point of not starting fights unless absolutely necessary. The Champion won't willingly go further than 30 mu away from you, nor will they attack/hinder an enemy unless they first try to attack you or the Champion. The Champion is level 3 or the Peace Princess's level, whichever is lower. You can take this multiple times, each one increasing the Royal Champion's max level by 1, up to 6. For every two points of Leadership score, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Champion. This does not allow the Champion to exceed level 6 or the Peace Princess's level. Leadership score points used to increase your Champion's maximum level don't count toward your effective Leadership score for determining the maximum level of the Cohort gained from the Leadership feat. If the Royal Champion is lost, it takes 1d12 days to get a replacement. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.
And Great Champion and higher would read something like:
Quote
Great Champion - You must have a Champion of level 6 to pick this. Increase the max level of the Champion by 1 per pick, up to a maximum of 9. For every two points of Leadership score not used to raise the Champion's level to 6, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Great Champion. You still must pick Great Champion at least once to increase the maximum level of the Champion above 6. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.

Queen would be the same as the edit above.

I think those changes would give a nice balance of keeping the Champion's power under control while also allowing you to benefit from the feature without spending a pick on the Champion every single level. A reasonably attainable Leadership of 24 at level 20 would provide enough extra levels to require only one pick of each tier.

As a comparison "middle point", I don't consider the Royal Guard ability substantially overpowered. Even though it gives earlier access to Followers and potentially higher levels for them, it can't completely overwhelm what Leadership grants in follower level and number at the same time. Also the restrictions on the followers are harsh enough to make up for the difference in levels. The only change I would make would also be restricting the followers to the Peace Princess's level or below. It would also be possible to grant similar synergy with Leadership there.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 06, 2018, 10:59:07 PM
Okay, finally home.

Alternate Magitechnique language:

Magitechnique: A Magitech Knight may pick one of the following Magitechnique lists and must forget spells on her paladin spell list to gain  Magitechniques of the same level at the rate of 2 paladin spells per Magitechnique spell from that list. Such abilities can only be activated by an actual Magitech Knight, they can't be made in item form (no scrolls, wands, staves, wondrous item, etc of Magitechnique) and no other class or ability may replicate them.

These abilities can be activated by rendering 1 prepared spell of the indicated spell level impossible to cast until the Magitech Knight next rests for eight hours. Magitechniques are activated as if they were spell-like abilities using the Magitech Knight level as caster level (minimum CL1), except they require spell-components as listed in the magitechnique entry. Saving throws are equal to 10+magitechnique level+Wis mod.



Since the magitechnique is activated by expending 1 spell of the same level I changed the save to just use magitechnique level.  I also removed the word "cast" in a couple of places and standardized as the word "activated" since you had that in at least one place already and it helps keep the idea that these aren't spells.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 06, 2018, 11:41:36 PM
I also want to suggest a sorta-buff to the Champion ability: synergy with Leadership. This would be Leadership increasing the maximum Champion level without another pick. Modified with this suggestion, Royal Champion would read:
Quote
Royal Champion - You gain a Real Pilot Cohort that can only take Pilot feats and places your protection above everything else to the point of not starting fights unless absolutely necessary. The Champion won't willingly go further than 30 mu away from you, nor will they attack/hinder an enemy unless they first try to attack you or the Champion. The Champion is level 3 or the Peace Princess's level, whichever is lower. You can take this multiple times, each one increasing the Royal Champion's max level by 1, up to 6. For every two points of Leadership score, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Champion. This does not allow the Champion to exceed level 6 or the Peace Princess's level. Leadership score points used to increase your Champion's maximum level don't count toward your effective Leadership score for determining the maximum level of the Cohort gained from the Leadership feat. If the Royal Champion is lost, it takes 1d12 days to get a replacement. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.
And Great Champion and higher would read something like:
Quote
Great Champion - You must have a Champion of level 6 to pick this. Increase the max level of the Champion by 1 per pick, up to a maximum of 9. For every two points of Leadership score not used to raise the Champion's level to 6, you may increase the maximum level of the Champion by 1 without taking another pick of Great Champion. You still must pick Great Champion at least once to increase the maximum level of the Champion above 6. You can only pick this option once per Peace Princess level.

Queen would be the same as the edit above.

I think those changes would give a nice balance of keeping the Champion's power under control while also allowing you to benefit from the feature without spending a pick on the Champion every single level. A reasonably attainable Leadership of 24 at level 20 would provide enough extra levels to require only one pick of each tier.

As a comparison "middle point", I don't consider the Royal Guard ability substantially overpowered. Even though it gives earlier access to Followers and potentially higher levels for them, it can't completely overwhelm what Leadership grants in follower level and number at the same time. Also the restrictions on the followers are harsh enough to make up for the difference in levels. The only change I would make would also be restricting the followers to the Peace Princess's level or below. It would also be possible to grant similar synergy with Leadership there.

Those sound like good and interesting ideas, edited in this versions of the Champion. Guards now capped to Peace Princess level too, the Connection line now only grants one combat weapon or special weapon or accessory per pick. Just didn't add synergy between guards and leadership since I'm not sure what a fair exchange rate would be in this case plus the Peace Princess already has more than enough reasons to pick Leadership. Thanks!

Okay, finally home.

Alternate Magitechnique language:

Magitechnique: A Magitech Knight may pick one of the following Magitechnique lists and must forget spells on her paladin spell list to gain  Magitechniques of the same level at the rate of 2 paladin spells per Magitechnique spell from that list. Such abilities can only be activated by an actual Magitech Knight, they can't be made in item form (no scrolls, wands, staves, wondrous item, etc of Magitechnique) and no other class or ability may replicate them.

These abilities can be activated by rendering 1 prepared spell of the indicated spell level impossible to cast until the Magitech Knight next rests for eight hours. Magitechniques are activated as if they were spell-like abilities using the Magitech Knight level as caster level (minimum CL1), except they require spell-components as listed in the magitechnique entry. Saving throws are equal to 10+magitechnique level+Wis mod.



Since the magitechnique is activated by expending 1 spell of the same level I changed the save to just use magitechnique level.  I also removed the word "cast" in a couple of places and standardized as the word "activated" since you had that in at least one place already and it helps keep the idea that these aren't spells.

Thanks as well, edited your cleaned up version in too!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on September 07, 2018, 01:46:29 AM
Thanks for taking on these suggestions, glad you like them so far. Here are some more looks at classes:

Magitech Knight:
I don't have anything to add to the Magitechnique suggestions others have given. I think this class is actually a bit too constrained. Compared to Paladin, which just loses class features when violating the code of conduct, the Magitech Knight is potentially damaged enough to die outright. I would instead apply the HP penalty to the mecha. If the mecha would have HP below zero due to code violations, the Magitech Knight may not pilot a mecha of any kind until all code violations are resolved.

I have no problem with other pilots getting eaten by the mecha though. Om nom nom.

Machinery Warrior:
Basically a Super that's hyper-specialized for survivability. There are two main issues with it: it's TOO survivable and the spirit discounts are too great. On the survivability side, it has two health bars, 25 HP/level, regen, reactor, immune to crits etc, and ignores death once/day. Add in up to three free action spirits per hour based on HP thresholds and half-price spirits and this thing can go forever. I have several suggestions here:
 
Cut the spirit discount like so:
Quote
Spirit On the Machinery: Each level of Machinery Warrior increases the maximum number of spirit points of the character by 4. In addition the character learns one spirit at levels 1, 5 and 9. Those Spirits only cost half the normal amount of spirit to use, or subtract 2 * Machinery Warrior level + 1 * other levels from the SP cost, whichever discount is smaller.

This means that Love costs 30SP at level 20 instead of level 11, but Revival can't cost less than 120SP no matter what you do.

Prevent external healing like so:
Quote
Self-Regenerating: The Machinery Warrior's mecha gains the Regeneration and Reactor I properties, both increasing an extra 1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9. This doesn't stack with Nanomachines or Reactor gained from other sources. The Machinery Warrior himself also gains the same grade of Nanomachines. However, the Machinery Warrior can no longer gain health or energy from any external source (including accessories, potions, and magic) nor from any spirits, including his own. He may still gain healing and energy from any racial ability, feat, class feature, or anything inherent to the Machinery Warrior or his mecha.

Removing external healing means it's still the Juggernaut, but not so much so that even the slightest amount of external support makes it truly unstoppable.

And replace the HP threshold spirits with hard HP stops (suggestion from Raineh Daze)
Quote
You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior's mecha would drop below 50% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 50% HP.
Machinery Cannot be Stopped: at level 6 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior or his Mecha would drop below 75% or 25% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 75% or 25% HP respectively.

The end product of these changes is something that's still very survivable, but not so much so that it essentially only dies if you do 500 damage per round.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 07, 2018, 01:50:35 AM
It's also a unique survivability. You get to survive any massive burst damage, but you can't heal straight up to full and rely on cheap maneuvers to ignore your class's own healing abilities.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 07, 2018, 02:42:15 AM
Thanks for taking on these suggestions, glad you like them so far. Here are some more looks at classes:

Magitech Knight:
I don't have anything to add to the Magitechnique suggestions others have given. I think this class is actually a bit too constrained. Compared to Paladin, which just loses class features when violating the code of conduct, the Magitech Knight is potentially damaged enough to die outright. I would instead apply the HP penalty to the mecha. If the mecha would have HP below zero due to code violations, the Magitech Knight may not pilot a mecha of any kind until all code violations are resolved.
Another good idea, done.

I have no problem with other pilots getting eaten by the mecha though. Om nom nom.
:D

Machinery Warrior:
Basically a Super that's hyper-specialized for survivability. There are two main issues with it: it's TOO survivable and the spirit discounts are too great. On the survivability side, it has two health bars, 25 HP/level, regen, reactor, immune to crits etc, and ignores death once/day. Add in up to three free action spirits per hour based on HP thresholds and half-price spirits and this thing can go forever. I have several suggestions here:
 
Cut the spirit discount like so:
Quote
Spirit On the Machinery: Each level of Machinery Warrior increases the maximum number of spirit points of the character by 4. In addition the character learns one spirit at levels 1, 5 and 9. Those Spirits only cost half the normal amount of spirit to use, or subtract 2 * Machinery Warrior level + 1 * other levels from the SP cost, whichever discount is smaller.

This means that Love costs 30SP at level 20 instead of level 11, but Revival can't cost less than 120SP no matter what you do.

Prevent external healing like so:
Quote
Self-Regenerating: The Machinery Warrior's mecha gains the Regeneration and Reactor I properties, both increasing an extra 1 at levels 3, 5, 7, and 9. This doesn't stack with Nanomachines or Reactor gained from other sources. The Machinery Warrior himself also gains the same grade of Nanomachines. However, the Machinery Warrior can no longer gain health or energy from any external source (including accessories, potions, and magic) nor from any spirits, including his own. He may still gain healing and energy from any racial ability, feat, class feature, or anything inherent to the Machinery Warrior or his mecha.

Removing external healing means it's still the Juggernaut, but not so much so that even the slightest amount of external support makes it truly unstoppable.

And replace the HP threshold spirits with hard HP stops (suggestion from Raineh Daze)
Quote
You Cannot Stop Me: At 3rd level 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior's mecha would drop below 50% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 50% HP.
Machinery Cannot be Stopped: at level 6 1/hour when the Machinery Warrior or his Mecha would drop below 75% or 25% max HP, he may instead have it drop to only 75% or 25% HP respectively.

The end product of these changes is something that's still very survivable, but not so much so that it essentially only dies if you do 500 damage per round.
Those sound like more good points, applied. I particularly like the simplicity of the new "Cannot" abilities.

It's also a unique survivability. You get to survive any massive burst damage, but you can't heal straight up to full and rely on cheap maneuvers to ignore your class's own healing abilities.
Thanks for helping too, really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 07, 2018, 01:29:23 PM
Hey, is this;

Grenade Shell

Choose one of your weapons. It gains the Area property for 1 round.

Supposed to give the explosive variant? Because, RAW, it would be the line variant. I don't think that's how grenades work.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 07, 2018, 01:38:26 PM
Ah, I knew I forgot to change something after the Area property overhaul, changed to Area(Explosive). Thanks!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 07, 2018, 01:57:15 PM
Also, does Beloved cause the target to genuinelly start feeling that way towards you (and vice versa?)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on September 07, 2018, 02:37:12 PM
Quote from: Pilot Feats
Close relationships are a very complex matter, but there's no denying that there's great power to be drawn from them. For a mecha pilot putting their life on the hands of other mecha pilots, it's not unexpected at all to develop strong feelings for your companions of one kind or another.

When you pick a [Relationship] feat, you must choose an individual to which it will apply. Each individual can only be targeted by a single kind of relationship-you cannot love someone while wanting to be friends with them. However the feelings don't need to be mutual. The target of your love can feel you as just a friend, if they have have any feelings back for you at all!

Ship captains and Mecha Mooks that took the Combined Team feat cannot have relationship feats towards their own class companions. They already have deep links between them resulting from piloting the same machine simultaneously. Similarly, you can't benefit from Relationship feats if the target of your affection is sharing your space.

Each relationship feat provides certain bonus when near the target of your feelings (even if they're disabled or dead), but if you both share the same kind of  feeling for each other, this allows you to unleash a Synchro Attack :

As far as actually having the feeling, I'm unsure if it's mechanically necessary, but this is a roleplaying game and would be out of the spirit if you didn't act on the emotion.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 08, 2018, 11:10:59 PM
Yes, they would have the actual feelings towards you, but as shown by many mecha shows you can be friends or in love with somebody else and still do your best to atomize them with giant robots.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 08, 2018, 11:45:35 PM
Right, courtesy of SorO pointing out interactions with effects like masochism, or remembering the absurdity of various Frenzied Berserker effects, some rewording might be in order for "You cannot stop me" and its followup...

Quote
If you would lose HP that would reduce you below 50% of your maximum HP (excluding temporary hitpoints), 1/hour you may lose only enough HP to bring yourself to only 50% of your maximum HP instead. Any further damage from the same source is ignored until the start of your next turn.

AKA: no losing 500 hp virtually for huge buffs but only losing 5hp in practise and getting bonuses or strange rule interactions. And a further addition to prevent someone from ignoring the ability just by hitting you twice (but being swarmed by lots of enemies is still effective)

I believe this is still clear about its interactions with con damage or negative levels (max HP drops, current hp drops by same amount, if current hp would drop below half max hp you may keep it at half max) but that could further be added. People misinterpreting what it means to be a dead character was also raised but I doubt that's likely or sane enough to address. <_>
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 09, 2018, 07:55:16 PM
Well I would say the main problem with masochism is masochism itself, it's not like it's the type of spell anybody just casts as normal buff routine, but rather because they have a plan to abuse it, and such plans can normally be unleashed significantly earlier than 13th level.

Still doesn't hurt to limit such shenigans, and the anti-multiple attacks clause is fine if you think it's needed too. Just had to adapt the wording to cover the fact where it's supposed to work for the mecha too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 09, 2018, 08:17:05 PM
Well I would say the main problem with masochism is masochism itself,

Dood
Don't be kinkshaming yo

I kid. But seriously, the masochism spell is actually more of a problem than you realize if you can use spirits outside your mecha.

Round 1) Cast Masochism
Round 2) Hurt yourself in an unimaginable way (GRENADE-HUGGING FTW)
Round 3) Guts, then KICK REASON TO THE FUCKING CURB
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 09, 2018, 08:23:56 PM
I think it's been said you can't use guts/refresh outside of mecha, but that was in OOC stuff, not here.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 09, 2018, 08:39:01 PM
I figured.

Nonetheless, the joke was mostly aimed to poke fun at Kamina.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 09, 2018, 09:41:04 PM
Quote
Still doesn't hurt to limit such shenigans, and the anti-multiple attacks clause is fine if you think it's needed too. Just had to adapt the wording to cover the fact where it's supposed to work for the mecha too.

It just seems like it'd defeat the point if you'd survive one hit from a buffed alpha strike and then... the rest blows through you.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 11, 2018, 07:07:38 AM
Attacker, Guardian & Predict now capped in the number of turns they can stack, courtesy of Fzzr,

I figured.

Nonetheless, the joke was mostly aimed to poke fun at Kamina.

That's also Prevail which gives stat boosts when HP drops low, plus Chiriko from Votoms has the unique Survivor skill that gives him mad buffs when at red, easier said than done considering his machines may as well be made of paper tissue.

So in other news, thinking about Spirits. A problem now is that there's a significant difference between making a pilot organically that would want to pick cheap spirits early game then grab more expensive stuff as their pool increases, and making a high.level pilot which can afford to skip the lesser cheaper spirits and grab a bunch of the big ones instead. The computer games skip this problem mostly by giving fixed lists to virtually every pilot ( in New Game+ often you can cherry pick the main character's spirits), but writing dozens of lists really isn't an option.

A solution I've been thinking about is dividing spirits in tiers. Three of them to be more specific, and your first 3 spirits must be from tier I, the next two must be from tier II and the last one will be tier III.

I-The cheap stuff, Accel, Alert, Focus, Invulnerability and equivalent ship captains, plus Valor since basically every pilot that's somebody learns this one. Also the more random ones like the crit enhanchers.

II-More specialized stuff, Guard, Fury, Strike, as well as stronger versions of tier I like Soul and Guts.

III-The "uber" spirits that combine multiple effects such as Love/Bravery as well as the extra turn ones like Zeal and Enable. Quite strong, but you're getting only one of them.

Also Love is probably too cheap right now, the 60 SP cost was taken straight from the GBA original generation games that weren't exactly very properly costed and should probably have cost increased to some 90 SP like in later games which I've been catching up with.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 11, 2018, 07:47:50 AM
I'm all for having Zeal not show up before Time Stop does, at least.

Though would it work that for Tier II you could also pick two Tier I options etc.?

Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 15, 2018, 07:43:56 AM
I'm all for having Zeal not show up before Time Stop does, at least.

Though would it work that for Tier II you could also pick two Tier I options etc.?
An interesting idea, but I'm trying to keep the number of spirits fixed.

How about you can learn two lower tier spirits but they become "linked" and you can only use them together?

Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.

That would need some careful wording since permanently increasing the counter can just mean you're always at the cap of the feats all the time. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on September 15, 2018, 11:04:34 AM


Second thing--spirits that give you an effective +1 to the turns you've been fighting for the purposes of attacker and similar. It seems pointless to use them; if you have the feat it's an "extra" +1 but... only for that turn. Permanently incrementing the counter seems slightly more use.

That would need some careful wording since permanently increasing the counter can just mean you're always at the cap of the feats all the time. Any ideas?

Is that really a bad thing, so long as it only lasts until the end of the combat? Given the source material, it's rare that you fall below Attacker/Predict will thresholds once you reach them.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 15, 2018, 11:35:23 AM
That "combat" is more of an abstract concept in D&D? Although I guess that's a limitation with a clear intent and a player dickish enough to try to cheese that wording would be stopped.

And since you're here again, did you miss my question about whetever your AC spreadshseet took in account that the heavier grades of armor accessories also nullify dodge/dex bonus to AC? Again, you claimed the Astraganant would have 79 AC before player abilities. The Astrangant starts at +20, the difference seems covered by Fortress Z.O. Armor (+21), Artificial Aegis (+21) and Advanced AI (+7) for the extra +49 (then base 10 AC). However Fortress Z.O. Armor would not allow to add any dodge bonus, both the base Dodge bonus from the Astrangant and the one from the Advanced AI. Or is there any other bonus I'm missing that you included in your spreadsheet?

I did the heavier armors as a way for low-dex/dodge builds to work to represent bulkier reals (just like there's speedster supers). For the shields I toyed with the penalties of limiting the number of maneuvers/spells/weapons that can be used per round so you're relying more on the shield for defense. If you think the penalties aren't worth it then I can think of harsher penalties or just remove the bigger shields.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 15, 2018, 01:05:10 PM
And since you're here again, did you miss my question about whetever your AC spreadshseet took in account that the heavier grades of armor accessories also nullify dodge/dex bonus to AC?
You mean RD's like two year old spreadsheet? It probably has some outdated information in it since the rules are always changing. Like your post is already a little outdated.
The Astrangant starts at +20
Real Robots List Expanded
Mecha(lv) Size Save Bonus Nat Armor/DR HP/Energy Dodge BonusArsenal Space/HardpointsSpeed
Astranagant (VII)Huge+6+11/30250/160+1110/280 mu, fly 60 mu (good)
The Astranagant clearly has a +11 armor and a +11 dodge bonus for a total of +22 to AC, not +20.

And
the difference seems covered by Fortress Z.O. Armor (+21), Artificial Aegis (+21) and Advanced AI (+7)
The Astranagant currently has two hard points, limiting it to two Accessories, not three btw.



Or is there any other bonus I'm missing that you included in your spreadsheet?
Do you think RD included this?
Artificial Aegis (VII):+21 Shield bonus to AC, +21 Reflex saves, +120 max HP, you're immune to the Power, Disarming and Grabbing properties. This is bolted down to a mecha arm and thus it can still use up to one weapon and maneuver/spell/similar per round, but you lose the bonuses if flanked or flat-footed. As a move action you can raise your shield to double its bonus to AC and reflex saves for 1 round.
Because that would make it's Shield bonus +42.

The loss of a Move Action, a penalty applied to the Pilot and not the mech, really isn't much thanks to 99.9% of Strikes using a Standard Action rather than a Full-Round. Plus you wrote homebrew to move and attack anyway, like AP's Devastating Assault which allows you to make a Full-Attack using a Standard Action. So really it makes doubling your Shield Bonus to AC is basically worth 35 Energy. And at the time of this post, the Astrangant also has more energy than any other Real Mech and it comes with Reactor 2 allowing it to regenerate 48 Energy per turn which is more than it needs to perform this tactic every single round and then some.

Although I guess that's a limitation with a clear intent and a player dickish enough to try to cheese that wording would be stopped.
Astrangant's AC can be 83 (+10 base, +11 natural, +0 dodge, +21 armor, +41 shield) using clearly intended abilities without cheesing any descriptions. And I would have probably used the Banpreios (+20 natural, 92 AC total) or the Alteisen Riese (+22 natural, 74 without using a move action, & 94 AC total) with an Automatic Aegis or better to prevent Power from halving the AC bonus instead for an example. Which makes her 79 AC figure about twenty points lower than you can achieve with minimal effort these newer updates you decided to write.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 15, 2018, 01:57:00 PM
How would it even be interpreted as permanent anyway? The counter resets to 0 when you're fighting a new opponent, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 17, 2018, 11:07:45 PM
-Being huge inflicts a -2 penalty to AC. Being gargantuan would be a -4.
-Arsenal Shields can be bypassed simply by flanking the target (which shouldn’t be too hard if they’re spending their move not actually moving) or making them flat-footed.
-A Strike can only use a Heavy weapon by increasing the activation time to a fullround action, so keeping the shield raised all the time means no using Heavy weapons. Plus only one maneuver per round, so using a Strike means being unable to use a Counter.
-Ckirk made the spreadsheet where the Astranagant has 79 AC, not Raineh Daze. And when the sheet was presented, the Astranagant still had 4 hardpoints, which were lowered to just 2 in 5/9/2018 as per the changelog.

How would it even be interpreted as permanent anyway? The counter resets to 0 when you're fighting a new opponent, doesn't it?
The counter keeps going up as long as either of you attack each other, not limited to a single opponent, and even if you skip a turn it never drops all the way back to zero, just drops by increments.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 17, 2018, 11:21:41 PM
Have the feat-relevant effect of the spirit wear off after a minute without attacking or being attacked and specify it has no effect if not fighting?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 18, 2018, 02:35:24 AM
Changed so that the feat boost only works for the combat only. It's not the best wording, but the intent is clear and a hard time limit wouldn't matter much due to spirit natural recovery.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 18, 2018, 12:23:59 PM
Can a moon vanguard take Steel Arcanist or Metal Mind?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 19, 2018, 03:50:35 AM
They can now. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on September 20, 2018, 09:01:11 AM
Maybe it's just me, but the stat requirements to eck out the abilities of H.A.R.O seem a little high. It's bothered me before, but with this Extra tag I'm wondering if it can be reduced a bit... Maybe I'm just selfish lol.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 20, 2018, 01:55:55 PM
I should probably note that the way you have spirits divided right now kinda opens you up to getting more useful low-tier spirits early and then just wasting new spirits learned as you level. How about giving them like half again as many SP as they'd gain from a new level when they'd learn a new spirit? It's not a big bonus, but at least it doesn't just waste a class feature if one multiclasses.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 20, 2018, 08:24:06 PM
I have been reminded that two classes does not a full review make.  Man, I've been so lazy this week.

I'll do Ship Captain now.  After that will probably be the casters, and the more complicated/weird stuff will be after that.

As an aside, Steel Soldier has a broken cell tag in its table.

Ship Captain

Level 9 fort save on the table has an extra space.

Skill list feels lacking.  You've already got Diplomacy and Intimidate, why no Sense Motive?

Ship Captains can't use guns?  I don't know mecha source material but anime in general tends to involve a lot of spaceship captains with pistols.

If reduced to 0 hp does a battleship crash to the ground when it's in space?  (Not a big deal.)

How do Ship Captains get arsenal weapons?  Is Custom Ship meant to grant weapons as well as accessories?


I have to say, I'm not sure why but I really like this one.  I think that for whatever reason being a giant spaceship and shooting the crap out of everything is more appealing to me than being a mecha.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 21, 2018, 12:46:53 AM
Maybe it's just me, but the stat requirements to eck out the abilities of H.A.R.O seem a little high. It's bothered me before, but with this Extra tag I'm wondering if it can be reduced a bit... Maybe I'm just selfish lol.
I think the stat requirements are still fine since easily having access to all the benefits would be probably too much. But I'm open to other people's opinions in the matter.

I should probably note that the way you have spirits divided right now kinda opens you up to getting more useful low-tier spirits early and then just wasting new spirits learned as you level. How about giving them like half again as many SP as they'd gain from a new level when they'd learn a new spirit? It's not a big bonus, but at least it doesn't just waste a class feature if one multiclasses.
I'm not very sure what you mean here. Are you saying that if one would learn more than 6 spirits with multiclassing, for each extra spirit instead increase the spirit point pool?

I have been reminded that two classes does not a full review make.  Man, I've been so lazy this week.

I'll do Ship Captain now.  After that will probably be the casters, and the more complicated/weird stuff will be after that.

As an aside, Steel Soldier has a broken cell tag in its table.
Fixed and sounds like a plan.

Ship Captain

Level 9 fort save on the table has an extra space.

Skill list feels lacking.  You've already got Diplomacy and Intimidate, why no Sense Motive?
Fixed both.

Ship Captains can't use guns?  I don't know mecha source material but anime in general tends to involve a lot of spaceship captains with pistols.
(https://i.imgsafe.org/47/47206996d3.png)
What, you don't know how half the time in Gundam Captain Bright wins the day with his bastard sword?
My bad, you're right ship captains pull guns often enough, fixed too.


If reduced to 0 hp does a battleship crash to the ground when it's in space?  (Not a big deal.)
Yes.

How do Ship Captains get arsenal weapons?  Is Custom Ship meant to grant weapons as well as accessories?
Good point, it's supposed to be with Custom ship, clarified.

I have to say, I'm not sure why but I really like this one.  I think that for whatever reason being a giant spaceship and shooting the crap out of everything is more appealing to me than being a mecha.
Can't blame you, spaceships have long been a key part of mecha shows. In Super Robot Wars games there's always some of them as essential units that you must keep alive and sometimes they're plain some of your most best units like the Nadeshiko in J with great stats all around and a whooping 4 subpilots. One of the recent SRW titles even had Yamato joining the party of playable characters despite being a series with just space ships and no actual mechas.

Thanks for the review and compliment! :D
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 21, 2018, 02:32:24 AM
Can an Intelligent Item be a Battleship?

Edit: as in your template class, not the dmg version.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: SorO_Lost on September 21, 2018, 10:48:42 AM
(replied to the wrong thread)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 21, 2018, 03:08:52 PM
You're welcome!

If I ever join a SRW game then I'd be a ship captain (so far). The main thing would be figuring out how to do planetside stuff that doesn't want me to be the maximum size possible because I wanted more guns...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 21, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
Quote
I'm not very sure what you mean here. Are you saying that if one would learn more than 6 spirits with multiclassing, for each extra spirit instead increase the spirit point pool?

Yes.

Also, why on Earth is there fanart of Bright Noa cosplaying as Hajime Saitou
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 22, 2018, 11:03:18 PM
Can an Intelligent Item be a Battleship?

Edit: as in your template class, not the dmg version.

If you take levels of both, I don't see why not, although there's also the Integrated AI flaw for androids.

Quote
I'm not very sure what you mean here. Are you saying that if one would learn more than 6 spirits with multiclassing, for each extra spirit instead increase the spirit point pool?

Yes.
Sounds like a good idea then, done.

Also, why on Earth is there fanart of Bright Noa cosplaying as Hajime Saitou
No idea but I love it. :P

Also something you posted in another thread but may as well answer here:
It would probably be helpful to add on the table what's the highest level tier spirit you can learn at a given level, by the by.

Hmmm, but thing is different classes learn spirits at different levels, plus multiclassing between pilot classes can further shuffle that order.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 22, 2018, 11:34:09 PM
If you take levels of both, I don't see why not, although there's also the Integrated AI flaw for androids.

Levels of both as in Int Item & Ship Captain?
Well anyways I did not realize Androids had such a feature, actually. That's really handy.

As well, are Ship Captains not able to learn any martial schools outside the original 4?

As well again, if an Android Ship Captain has Integrated AI, how does HP work? Cause Ship captain has it's own HD but battleships also have HP of their own separate from that. Which pool of HP gets used? Do they stack? This question actually relates to Integrated AI with any kind of Mecha, thinking about it.

I don't understand the Weapon Size Scaling table in the Arsenal thread. Mostly because, like, say, going from Medium to Colossal is +6d6 on the table, but does that mean the weapon gains +6d6 damage regardless of the die size the weapon uses? Like a weapon that uses d8s would still get bonus d6s on size increase? Or does the die size change to the same size the base weapon uses?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 23, 2018, 08:00:21 AM
If you take levels of both, I don't see why not, although there's also the Integrated AI flaw for androids.

Levels of both as in Int Item & Ship Captain?
Yes.

Well anyways I did not realize Androids had such a feature, actually. That's really handy.
Thanks!

As well, are Ship Captains not able to learn any martial schools outside the original 4?
Beam Barrage, Missile Massacre, Neo Granzon and Terror Tactics all can be swapped by any pilot's base schools, and Martial Pilot feat can grab you any pilot school.

As well again, if an Android Ship Captain has Integrated AI, how does HP work? Cause Ship captain has it's own HD but battleships also have HP of their own separate from that. Which pool of HP gets used? Do they stack? This question actually relates to Integrated AI with any kind of Mecha, thinking about it.
The HP from HD would apply to the AI box itself, but you could use One With the Machine to apply the android's HP to the battleship instead of the battleship/mecha's own, but in that case if the battleship/mecha's reduced to 0 HP so is the AI itself.

I don't understand the Weapon Size Scaling table in the Arsenal thread. Mostly because, like, say, going from Medium to Colossal is +6d6 on the table, but does that mean the weapon gains +6d6 damage regardless of the die size the weapon uses? Like a weapon that uses d8s would still get bonus d6s on size increase? Or does the die size change to the same size the base weapon uses?
The bonus is the same regardless of the base die. That way weapons with lots of smaller die don't get penalized over weapons with fewer big dies.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 23, 2018, 08:27:52 AM
So regardless of the starting size of a Battleship, Arsenal weapons always are outfitted as if for a Medium sized Mecha, it says.
Do size changes applied to the Battleship after the initial creation of the Battleship allow Arsenal weapons of greater size? Like at 1st level I start with a Colossal sized Battleship with Medium sized Weapons, but then later take Humongous Ship to increase the ship to Colossal+; are the Arsenal weapons now Large sized?

If an Integrated Android grows in size categories from, I dunno, say the Growth options from a Monster Class, would the Growth be applied to the mecha/ship the Android is integrated into?

As an aside, does Humongous Ship only ever grant +1 Hardpoint or is it +1 Hardpoint per size increase as you hit the level required by the feat for the next bump up?

Are Arsenal Weapons considered "Built-in" weapons? If not, what is, and how do you get more? All I know is Super Robots have 1 built-in weapon as default. It's just not really a descriptor that shows up very often.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 23, 2018, 09:54:58 PM
So regardless of the starting size of a Battleship, Arsenal weapons always are outfitted as if for a Medium sized Mecha, it says.
Do size changes applied to the Battleship after the initial creation of the Battleship allow Arsenal weapons of greater size? Like at 1st level I start with a Colossal sized Battleship with Medium sized Weapons, but then later take Humongous Ship to increase the ship to Colossal+; are the Arsenal weapons now Large sized?
Humongous ship not supposed to do that, clarified the feat, but other stuff like a super's Growth upgrade would boost the ship's weapon damage.

If an Integrated Android grows in size categories from, I dunno, say the Growth options from a Monster Class, would the Growth be applied to the mecha/ship the Android is integrated into?
No, only growths from actual mecha material can make a mecha grow. One of the key aspects of mecha is to allow "small" characters to act big, but if bigger characters get bigger mecha by default that really defeats said point.

As an aside, does Humongous Ship only ever grant +1 Hardpoint or is it +1 Hardpoint per size increase as you hit the level required by the feat for the next bump up?
One hardpoint when you take the feat, clarified too.

Are Arsenal Weapons considered "Built-in" weapons? If not, what is, and how do you get more? All I know is Super Robots have 1 built-in weapon as default. It's just not really a descriptor that shows up very often.
Only weapons that are referenced as "built-in" count as so. Super robots have 2 by default and can pick more with Extra, non-generic Real's base weapons are Built-In too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 23, 2018, 09:59:32 PM
Funny (since getting a Space Suit gets around it) but until level 20, an Einst Queen is pretty screwed in space despite being a space monstrosity. The Adaptive Queen can get into a drone but if the Infiltrator or Nurturing stand on one, they still asphyxiate. xD
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 23, 2018, 10:02:26 PM
Quote
Only weapons that are referenced as "built-in" count as so. Super robots have 2 by default and can pick more with Extra, non-generic Real's base weapons are Built-In too.

Darn. That makes Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire (7th) a lot less valuable -_-'
Oh well.

If Multiclassing Super Pilot with Ship Captain, if my Captain has Tier 2 Arsenal available, and Super has like Tier 2 Arsenal available, do they add up to having access to Tier 4 Arsenal? Or if you're ahead in one class with Arsenal, then is the lower class' arsenal class feature completely wasted?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 23, 2018, 10:07:22 PM
Maybe pilot classes should combine to advance the slower Arsenal access? No multiclassing for early tier 7, but not dropping four levels behind either.

i.e. use the better native arsenal access or access = to your slower class's with your HD as level.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 23, 2018, 10:10:52 PM
Do natural weapons get channeled through Mechas? Are those considered Built-in if so?


Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 23, 2018, 10:25:20 PM
Quote
Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(

Would just like to add that this is the school Supers can't get without Real multiclassing, so you can't even take advantage of the upgrades to add inbuilt weapons and get the maneuver.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 23, 2018, 10:29:50 PM
Thank you^

What really constitutes "self buff class abilities for fighting" in regards to what a mecha benefits from its pilot?
Like, Fast Healing apparently works in the single given example. What else? Toughness? Improved Toughness? Diehard? Spell Resistance? Spell Immunity? Rage?
Or what doesn't if that's a shorter list.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 23, 2018, 10:37:45 PM
From times I've asked before: all class features that provide you with some sort of ability or immunity do, and it's mostly been straight increases to AC or DR that would run into stacking conflicts that don't. Classes that grant a fly speed also transfer that to the mecha. Diehard-esque class features do, so I guess that Diehard itself would?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 23, 2018, 10:44:43 PM
Funny (since getting a Space Suit gets around it) but until level 20, an Einst Queen is pretty screwed in space despite being a space monstrosity. The Adaptive Queen can get into a drone but if the Infiltrator or Nurturing stand on one, they still asphyxiate. xD
...Can't believe I forgot that all this time. Fixed, thanks.

Quote
Only weapons that are referenced as "built-in" count as so. Super robots have 2 by default and can pick more with Extra, non-generic Real's base weapons are Built-In too.

Darn. That makes Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire (7th) a lot less valuable -_-'
Oh well.

If Multiclassing Super Pilot with Ship Captain, if my Captain has Tier 2 Arsenal available, and Super has like Tier 2 Arsenal available, do they add up to having access to Tier 4 Arsenal? Or if you're ahead in one class with Arsenal, then is the lower class' arsenal class feature completely wasted?
As said in the multiclassing rules, Arsenal access equivalent is Real level+Super level+Captain level-3 (minimum Real level). A lv7 super (minimum for tier II arsenal) and lv 7 ship captain (minimum for tier II arsenal) would have 7+7-3=11 so they would access to Arsenal III like a lv11 real. A couple more real or captain levels and you would get tier IV.

Maybe pilot classes should combine to advance the slower Arsenal access? No multiclassing for early tier 7, but not dropping four levels behind either.

i.e. use the better native arsenal access or access = to your slower class's with your HD as level.
I believe that's kinda how it already works, you'll never fall behind and a super/captain multiclass would basically progress as normal.

Do natural weapons get channeled through Mechas? Are those considered Built-in if so?
They get channeled but wouldn't count as built-in.

Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(
There's a couple other key benefits:
-Maneuver can add precision damage, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't.
-Maneuver can fire multiple built-in Heavy weapons, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't since it's a fullattack and Heavy weapons specificially limit you to one Heavy weapon and nothing else in a full attack, which the 1+1/3 level is. But Mixed Fire isn't a full attack, so can get around the Heavy restriction.

Quote
Ace Pilot's Mixed Fire maneuver is definitely useless. The amount of built-in weapons a mecha has is incredibly low, and the mechas that have more than 2 or 3 are really high level and by then you can already use that option everyone has to attack with 1+1/3 level weapons as a fullattack from mecha basics to do the same thing a maneuver you get 3/4 of the way to 20th level. The only thing this maneuver does is basically grant multiattack for 1 turn as a 7th level maneuver.  :(

Would just like to add that this is the school Supers can't get without Real multiclassing, so you can't even take advantage of the upgrades to add inbuilt weapons and get the maneuver.
You could use Martial Pilot to grab Ace Pilot as a Super Pilot, or be a multi-class super/real.

Thank you^

What really constitutes "self buff class abilities for fighting" in regards to what a mecha benefits from its pilot?
Like, Fast Healing apparently works in the single given example. What else? Toughness? Improved Toughness? Diehard? Spell Resistance? Spell Immunity? Rage?
Or what doesn't if that's a shorter list.
No to (improved) toughness since it's mechas have their separate HP, yes to everything else.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 23, 2018, 10:55:33 PM
Quote
-Maneuver can fire multiple built-in Heavy weapons, 1+1/3 level fullattack can't since it's a fullattack and Heavy weapons specificially limit you to one Heavy weapon and nothing else in a full attack, which the 1+1/3 level is. But Mixed Fire isn't a full attack, so can get around the Heavy restriction.

I didn't know that was allowed, haha. Well, alright then.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 23, 2018, 11:50:19 PM
Though on the stacking question...

Mecha Natural AC is formatted as an untyped bonus. If a pilot has a class feature supplying natural AC, does that give the mecha base nat AC which gets further boosted?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 24, 2018, 12:24:28 AM
Mecha weapons count as doing [Force] damage except where DR comes up, but do they count as Magical for bypassing DR/Magic?

Infiltrator Einst Queen can grant a maneuver or Stance to a Drone it spawns. Einst ACF for Ship Captain lets their drone merge with their Battleship. With myself also being Integrated with the Battleship, could a Stance known by the Drone and a Stance known by myself be active simultaneously and be benefiting both/all of us?

Also, Drones auto die if critted, I read that right, right? Would a Drone that was merged with a Battleship that got critted also die and thus no longer be merged with the ship? If so, how would that interact with how crits usually work with damage going through to the pilot if the crit is kind of being taken by the Drone in that instance? Or would it be possible to choose whether the fused Drone takes the crit or you do so as to save the Drone and keep it fused?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 24, 2018, 09:32:21 PM
I'll do Arcane and Divine pilots next.

Arcane Pilot and Divine Pilot

Super vs Real dichotomy, fair enough.

Divine Pilot needs Sense Motive on the skills list.

I'm not going to go through the spells lists.  I barely ever play casters (remember how I never used spells when playing Jeremy 2.0 in the Nintendo game?) and since they both get bonus spells anything missing can be grabbed.  Divine Pilot gets a hell of a lot more extra spells though.

I feel like if the Arcane Pilot is going to (potentially) have a lot of familiars in combat pods then they might want to have a pass on familiar death XP penalties.

I think all of the custom spells are okay.


Well that was quicker than expected.  I'll just go down the list alphabetically now, otherwise I'll probably lose track of what I've done.


Einst Queen

Yay, a crazy complicated one.....

I feel like you care about this one more because it has pretty formatting.  And the skills are in alphabetical order!

I see that Swim isn't on the skill list.  It isn't needed, but Queen's get all the other movement skills so I noticed it not being there (and Super Pilot's get Swim so I know you aren't against swim in principle).  If you don't add it that's fine, I don't know if Queen's actually swim.

Okay, drones get a bioframe and an instinct.  No HD, that's interesting.

I'm getting a pretty well reviewed vibe out of this one.  Not that I'm complaining.

The Adaptive Queen's mutation Hunger should probably have the word permanent removed.  The phrasing isn't bad, it just isn't actually "permanent" in my opinion.  I can see an argument for leaving it in (permanent until removed).  Do whatever, I won't complain.

The Aquatic mutation grants Drones the ability to breathe underwater.  Do Drones breathe?

In Spore Spreader - trough should be through.  This one popped out at me because that was the first misspelling in this post.


How does an Einst Queen/Ship Captain's Officers/Crew work?  Also, togheter should be together in that multiclass spoiler.


Your multiclass math feels off.

"For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example an Einst Queen 8/Ship Captain 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Einst Queen ability purposes and PL 6 for other Ship Captain ability purposes."

Should it be PL 8 for other Ship Captain ability purposes?


I take it Queen's Will is the only way to have a "party friendly" Queen?  Oh look, Guardian instinct.  I missed that on first read.

Do Drones have to spend energy to fly like normal mecha?  (I'm assuming yes.)

Can a Queen absorb a drone or would it just eat the drone normally?  I'm thinking of mecha vs. non-mecha scale switching (as a player where you won't have a billion drones).


Bioweapon minimum damage as small.  Fair enough.  I'm not an arsenal expert so I can't tell if the bioweapons are good, but given the great formatting I'll assume they've been looked at.   :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 24, 2018, 10:47:27 PM
Though on the stacking question...

Mecha Natural AC is formatted as an untyped bonus. If a pilot has a class feature supplying natural AC, does that give the mecha base nat AC which gets further boosted?
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Mecha weapons count as doing [Force] damage except where DR comes up, but do they count as Magical for bypassing DR/Magic?
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Infiltrator Einst Queen can grant a maneuver or Stance to a Drone it spawns. Einst ACF for Ship Captain lets their drone merge with their Battleship. With myself also being Integrated with the Battleship, could a Stance known by the Drone and a Stance known by myself be active simultaneously and be benefiting both/all of us?

Also, Drones auto die if critted, I read that right, right? Would a Drone that was merged with a Battleship that got critted also die and thus no longer be merged with the ship? If so, how would that interact with how crits usually work with damage going through to the pilot if the crit is kind of being taken by the Drone in that instance? Or would it be possible to choose whether the fused Drone takes the crit or you do so as to save the Drone and keep it fused?
I'll answer all of that by clarifying that besides instinct/Queen's Will, the drone battleship counts as a battleship and not as a drone.

I'll do Arcane and Divine pilots next.

Arcane Pilot and Divine Pilot

Super vs Real dichotomy, fair enough.

Divine Pilot needs Sense Motive on the skills list.
Done.

I'm not going to go through the spells lists.  I barely ever play casters (remember how I never used spells when playing Jeremy 2.0 in the Nintendo game?) and since they both get bonus spells anything missing can be grabbed.  Divine Pilot gets a hell of a lot more extra spells though.
True, but divine spells usually aren't as versatile, so the arcane pilot should be able to do as much with less picks.

I feel like if the Arcane Pilot is going to (potentially) have a lot of familiars in combat pods then they might want to have a pass on familiar death XP penalties.
Good point, added clause that they'll only take penalties if all the familiars die and the penalty will be the same as if a single one had died, plus 24 hour free ritual to bring dead ones back to life as long as one remains.

I think all of the custom spells are okay.
Yay!

Well that was quicker than expected.  I'll just go down the list alphabetically now, otherwise I'll probably lose track of what I've done.


Einst Queen

Yay, a crazy complicated one.....

I feel like you care about this one more because it has pretty formatting.  And the skills are in alphabetical order!
Trivia time, although the Einst Queen draws inspiration from many space bugs sources, the main one was the webcomic Knight Run (https://www.mangareader.net/knight-run) (class pic source too) which I really, really liked despite averagish art, so yeah this one holds a special place in my heart and it goes to show your review skills that you noticed it.

I see that Swim isn't on the skill list.  It isn't needed, but Queen's get all the other movement skills so I noticed it not being there (and Super Pilot's get Swim so I know you aren't against swim in principle).  If you don't add it that's fine, I don't know if Queen's actually swim.
Recently saw Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet so swim now class skill.

Okay, drones get a bioframe and an instinct.  No HD, that's interesting.
Saves quite a bit of trouble since HD come with a lot of strings attached.

I'm getting a pretty well reviewed vibe out of this one.  Not that I'm complaining.

The Adaptive Queen's mutation Hunger should probably have the word permanent removed.  The phrasing isn't bad, it just isn't actually "permanent" in my opinion.  I can see an argument for leaving it in (permanent until removed).  Do whatever, I won't complain.
You're right, removed.

The Aquatic mutation grants Drones the ability to breathe underwater.  Do Drones breathe?
Good catch, they don't so removed that bit.

In Spore Spreader - trough should be through.  This one popped out at me because that was the first misspelling in this post.
Fixed.

How does an Einst Queen/Ship Captain's Officers/Crew work?  Also, togheter should be together in that multiclass spoiler.
Added "crewed by a mix of lesser einst, enslaved/delusioned/fanatic humanoids and hybrids."

Your multiclass math feels off.

"For determining Pilot level for other abilities, count full class level  plus half the other levels for purposes of that class. So for example an Einst Queen 8/Ship Captain 4 would count as having PL 10 for other Einst Queen ability purposes and PL 6 for other Ship Captain ability purposes."

Should it be PL 8 for other Ship Captain ability purposes?
Ups, yes. Fixed too. :blush

I take it Queen's Will is the only way to have a "party friendly" Queen?  Oh look, Guardian instinct.  I missed that on first read.
You can thank Raineh Daze for that one if I remember correctly. :p

Do Drones have to spend energy to fly like normal mecha?  (I'm assuming yes.)
Yes, unless otherwise noticed they work like mechas.

Can a Queen absorb a drone or would it just eat the drone normally?  I'm thinking of mecha vs. non-mecha scale switching (as a player where you won't have a billion drones).
Need to nom the drone.

Bioweapon minimum damage as small.  Fair enough.  I'm not an arsenal expert so I can't tell if the bioweapons are good, but given the great formatting I'll assume they've been looked at.   :p
Does this means the bio-weapons by themselves look good, nothing that stands as too strong/weak compared to the other bio-weapons? :P

Thanks once more for your help!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 24, 2018, 10:52:59 PM
Quote
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Basically:
I have a mecha, which has a certain nat AC.
I have a monster class, which grants nat AC via class features. This value is higher.
Which value do I use for the mecha?

Subquestion is, what if said class then has a different feature that enhances its AC. Does this bonus apply to mecha AC even if the (monster class) AC otherwise wouldn't?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 25, 2018, 12:07:28 AM
On the bio weapons, I think that they're okay internally but I'll admit to just skimming at the end.

I'll give them another look through and actually look up the weapon special abilities before moving to the next class.

Einst Queen multiclassing needs to be fixed for Real and Super pilots too.

I like the Einst Queen too. So far I'd play either a Ship Captain or a Ship Captain/Einst Queen.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 25, 2018, 12:46:17 AM
I'm glancing through other things on my phone.

Musk Cat favored class is in the feat spoiler.


Classes without a race having it as a favored class (in case you aren't keeping track):

Ideal Idol
Mecha Mook (doesn't really count)
Peace Princess
Prodigy Pilot
Psycho Pilot
Ship Captain 
Support Staff
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 25, 2018, 12:57:00 AM
How would a Super Pilot /Ship Captain /Einst Queen work?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 25, 2018, 01:35:36 AM
Quote
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Huh, so creatures immune to non-magical attacks are immune to being damaged by mechas? Thats spooky. It's a rare feature, but interesting to know.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2018, 03:52:49 AM
Quote
Eeerrr, it's called Nat(ural) Armor because it is literally Natural Armor, says so in the intro and everything. If that formatting is not good enough, please suggest a better wording.

Basically:
I have a mecha, which has a certain nat AC.
I have a monster class, which grants nat AC via class features. This value is higher.
Which value do I use for the mecha?

Subquestion is, what if said class then has a different feature that enhances its AC. Does this bonus apply to mecha AC even if the (monster class) AC otherwise wouldn't?
Apply the best natural armor between pilot and mecha, if the pilot has an ability that improves natural armor it improves the pilot's own and if it ends best than the mecha's own then use the pilot'e enhanced, otherwise mecha's.

On the bio weapons, I think that they're okay internally but I'll admit to just skimming at the end.

I'll give them another look through and actually look up the weapon special abilities before moving to the next class.

Einst Queen multiclassing needs to be fixed for Real and Super pilots too.

I like the Einst Queen too. So far I'd play either a Ship Captain or a Ship Captain/Einst Queen.

Fixed super/real multiclass, and thanks for the extra compliment! :D

I'm glancing through other things on my phone.

Musk Cat favored class is in the feat spoiler.
Fixed too.

Classes without a race having it as a favored class (in case you aren't keeping track):

Ideal Idol
Mecha Mook (doesn't really count)
Peace Princess
Prodigy Pilot
Psycho Pilot
Ship Captain 
Support Staff
Thanks, I had a rough idea while drafting the new races, but an actually written list is better (plus confirmation that no race should be the Mecha Mook race).

How would a Super Pilot /Ship Captain /Einst Queen work?
You get buffed drones like a super/einst and then can fuse a buffed drone to your battleship (although only HP, DR, saves,  natural armor, Dodge and weapons would count for the buffed drone battleship). Super levels would also directly buff the battleship as a super/captain so your drone battleship can also transform and gets upgrade points.

Quote
No unless you have Arcane Arsenal or something else to make them magic.

Huh, so creatures immune to non-magical attacks are immune to being damaged by mechas? Thats spooky. It's a rare feature, but interesting to know.

Intended, wanted a reason to keep somebody able to use magic around.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 25, 2018, 05:52:39 AM
In the Einst Queen fluff, apparently they are sometimes raised in captivity or brainwashed with drugs.


Hence, the current situation with Einst Captains raises an interesting possibility of the "tame" Einst Captain kidnapping and enslaving randos and the Government is like

"This is fine."
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 25, 2018, 05:55:13 AM
Quote
Apply the best natural armor between pilot and mecha, if the pilot has an ability that improves natural armor it improves the pilot's own and if it ends best than the mecha's own then use the pilot'e enhanced, otherwise mecha's.

So it overlaps the pilot's, good to know. That's why the question about formatting was brought up by Rainy earlier. On the tables for Real Robots or Einst Bioframes the NatAC column lists values as "+X"; which in dnd tends to mean "add X to Y", Y being NatAC. Yanno, like how those mentioned mecha tables also say "+X" in the Saves column because that value is added to the pilot's total Save when piloting the mecha.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2018, 08:41:41 AM
That's because both base save bonus and the mecha save bonus are untyped.

Added clause to clarify in the intro.

In the Einst Queen fluff, apparently they are sometimes raised in captivity or brainwashed with drugs.


Hence, the current situation with Einst Captains raises an interesting possibility of the "tame" Einst Captain kidnapping and enslaving randos and the Government is like

"This is fine."

 :D
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 25, 2018, 09:55:30 AM
I can't believe I missed this.

The bad multiclassing math came from the intro post. All four instances where it is written have an example of lvl 8 / lvl 4 with PL 10 / PL 6 (should be PL 10 / PL 8).

Looking around I'm not sweing many class features that rely on PL aside from maneuvers.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 28, 2018, 01:52:15 AM
I can't believe I missed this.

The bad multiclassing math came from the intro post. All four instances where it is written have an example of lvl 8 / lvl 4 with PL 10 / PL 6 (should be PL 10 / PL 8).
Hoorah for Nanshork's keen reviewing eye noticing something that everybody else here missed for years!

(and fixed)

Looking around I'm not sweing many class features that rely on PL aside from maneuvers.
Hahaha, I had some plans for that but then outside of maneuvers ended up not using PL that much indeed. :blush
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 28, 2018, 02:52:09 AM
I don't think we missed it, we all just knew our own math  :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 28, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
It's fine that PL is basically IL, it just nixes some multiclassing I had because I'd fall behind in class features.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 28, 2018, 09:54:17 PM
I would like to keep all multiclassing possibilities viable so if there's any specific combos that are too weak you can point them out and I'll think of ways of making them better (there's already a bunch of feats to help with that, in particular caster/non-caster combinations, although I guess you didn't get to checking those yet).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on September 28, 2018, 10:28:58 PM
It's not things being weak specifically, more about access to higher level mechas and whatnot.

I've done some very targeted feat looks but haven't gotten to them generally.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on September 29, 2018, 07:51:01 PM
Are Neo Granzon maneuvers Supernatural or Extraordinary?

Does their [Force] subtype work vs immunity to nonmagical attacks?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on September 30, 2018, 12:20:56 AM
If there's a mecha school that should be Su it's certainly Neo Granzon, done. Also added clause that they count as magic if beneficial.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 02, 2018, 09:01:36 AM
Something I made for fun:
(https://i.imgsafe.org/36/36926d40d7.jpeg)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 02, 2018, 09:09:49 AM
Hah.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 02, 2018, 12:28:53 PM
Is it weird I do not recognize anyone in the first line?

(Yeah, I realize they're probably all from Getter Robo, but I have no idea who those three are.)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 02, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
I'm pretty certain the first two are one of the later Getter teams.

The third one... eh, from the quote, I'm guessing Hayato again.

Hey, where does Getter Emperor fit on the chart?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 03, 2018, 09:15:28 AM
The good axis is all from Getter Robo Darkness which has the main trio at least starting more goody-two-shoes (like in the pic Ryoma carrying a mother and her child by himself) and yeah the designs are quite different. Like Musashi's a girl in that timeline.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 04, 2018, 12:14:47 AM
Since I said that I'll do a deep dive into the biomonster weapons before moving on that probably won't happen until this weekend because making spreadsheets feels like work right now.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 04, 2018, 12:36:08 AM
Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 07, 2018, 07:58:52 PM
Bioweapons

Sensen Klingen (I) and Tentakel-dringt(VII) specify that they costs no energy but that seems to be the default.  A bunch make no mention of energy cost either way.

A handful of bioweapons don't state their crit multiplier.

Verschlinger(III) has its range in feet, not mu.

Vencom Kanone(IV) should specify that it does acid damage.

Can you select multiple bioweapons that improve the built-in bite?

Säure-Speichel(VI) should probably specify acid damage.


I have no idea how much ammo/energy cost mitigate things so I just made another table so that people better familiar with arsenal rules can easily see all of the math.  The table does not include suggested changes listed above.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 07, 2018, 08:23:06 PM
With regards to ammo and bioweapons it's probably a "try by experience" thing because the only way to recharge it is consuming food and who knows how hard that's going to be?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 07, 2018, 08:25:01 PM
With regards to ammo and bioweapons it's probably a "try by experience" thing because the only way to recharge it is consuming food and who knows how hard that's going to be?

That's fair, after reading the "reload" rules I decided that if I ever played an Einst Queen I would probably just avoid bioweapons with ammo so I didn't have to deal with it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 07, 2018, 09:57:03 PM
Bioweapons

Sensen Klingen (I) and Tentakel-dringt(VII) specify that they costs no energy but that seems to be the default.  A bunch make no mention of energy cost either way.
Good point, removed those mentions to avoid confusion.

A handful of bioweapons don't state their crit multiplier.
If no crit is stated then it's supposed to be standard x2 on a natural 20, added clause for that.

Verschlinger(III) has its range in feet, not mu.
Fixed.

Can you select multiple bioweapons that improve the built-in bite?
Yes.

Säure-Speichel(VI) should probably specify acid damage.

Vencom Kanone(IV) should specify that it does acid damage.
Despite the description, those are not supposed to deal actual acid damage since that would ignore all DR and would make Rending kinda pointless. Replaced the word "acid" from the description with "enzymes".

I have no idea how much ammo/energy cost mitigate things so I just made another table so that people better familiar with arsenal rules can easily see all of the math.  The table does not include suggested changes listed above.

(click to show/hide)

Thanks!

With regards to ammo and bioweapons it's probably a "try by experience" thing because the only way to recharge it is consuming food and who knows how hard that's going to be?

That's fair, after reading the "reload" rules I decided that if I ever played an Einst Queen I would probably just avoid bioweapons with ammo so I didn't have to deal with it.

If you think the ammo restriction is too harsh, I can also allow for other mecha reloading methods to work, like a Support Staff Mechanic's Reload and Arsenal cartridges that can be used for allied mecha or a Ship Captain with Veteran mechanics.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 07, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
From a playability perspective allowing class features that allow reloading mecha ammo affect einsts makes sense.

From a flavor perspective I feel like there should be something of a tradeoff since we're talking technology vs biology

Something like when you birth an einst you have to choose if it reloads by eating or by other classes reloading it and only mecha scale gets that choice (since support staff, etc are only used to working on mecha scale).

This is just spitballing while Netflix is paused so take that for what it's worth. I just think that a feat is too much and the anyone can reload any einst doesn't make sense to me from an in game perspective.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 07, 2018, 11:53:55 PM
I can understand the "tech vs bio" point, but reloading already is pretty abstract in here since a Support Staff/cartridge can already reload any weapon in the run from energy pacs to assorted missiles to all kinds of bullets bullets to replacement blades to explosive stakes and whatnot.

A compromise at the top of my head is that einst could assimilate mecha ammo reloads (extract corrosive substances from batteries, explosives are also chemicals, metal can be used to reinforce claws, etc), but due to the difference of bio vs tech they'll only recover half of their weapon's ammo instead of the standard full refill per reload. How does that sound?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 08, 2018, 01:09:25 AM
That makes sense, and also is arguable from a tech vs bio perspective when it comes to healing living constructs who get half healing from heal spells.

Also it doesn't have any negative impacts on out of combat which is a plus. And less bookkeeping than my suggestion which is good.

It would need to be half rounded up since you have a bioweapon with 1 ammo.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 08, 2018, 04:20:14 AM
Ok, added the option with rounding up.

If there's no other pressing issues with the Einst Queen feel free to advance to another class.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 13, 2018, 06:36:10 PM
Ideal Idol

Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.

Other than that it's a bard with a spaceship.  Everything looks fine.


Magitech Knight

Should probably also have Sense Motive since it has so many other social skills.

For Code of Conduct, does a LN Magitech Knight choose alignment separately for each ability or once for all?

How does "she make up for her mistake threefold" to remove penalties?

The fluff implies that you can only have magitechniques from one list, is that the case?

I'm assuming that Code Explode is a SoD and that exploding=death?

Wren’s Flare says the damage is half fire/half electricity twice in the text.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 14, 2018, 04:18:55 AM
Ideal Idol

Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.
Done.

Other than that it's a bard with a spaceship.  Everything looks fine.
Yay!

Magitech Knight

Should probably also have Sense Motive since it has so many other social skills.
Done too.

For Code of Conduct, does a LN Magitech Knight choose alignment separately for each ability or once for all?
Each ability.

How does "she make up for her mistake threefold" to remove penalties?
Good point, added a list of penitences for each specific code of conduct.

The fluff implies that you can only have magitechniques from one list, is that the case?
Yes, clarified.

I'm assuming that Code Explode is a SoD and that exploding=death?
Correct, clarified too.

Wren’s Flare says the damage is half fire/half electricity twice in the text.
Fixed.

Thanks for the review!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 15, 2018, 07:13:53 PM
Was thinking about pilot PRC, none of them seem to be choices for Real Pilots, or at least more pure ones.

Hahaha, yes, the prcs ended up being quite more on the Super side so far.

But as a coincidence I've been brainstorming some prcs which would fit more real concepts:

Veteran Pilot-Old grumpy person (literally needs to be Old to qualify), can take 10 on combat stuff X/round, Fearless, inspires allies or makes enemies afraid, can offer valuable advice, something 1x1 challenges.

Stealth Knight-Specialized in both stealthing around and protecting others and hitting hard even while remaining hard to find even when on a mecha.

Mecha Thief-Can temporally steal weapons/accessories/spirits/maneuvers, find secret passages even if there weren't supposed to be any.

Also still thinking about a Real Reporter specialized in collecting/manipulating information, but not sure if it should be a base class or prc.

If any of those interest you in particular I can work on finishing them first.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on October 16, 2018, 05:38:29 PM
Was thinking about pilot PRC, none of them seem to be choices for Real Pilots, or at least more pure ones.

Why not Soul Soldier? You don't lose Real (or Super) advancement, just Arsenal. The additional hardpoints make one of the best things about Reals even better. The only thing you're completely giving up is bonus feats, which are more than made up for by the class features. The biggest downside I see is the Magitech Knight requirement, if you do mean an absolutely pure Real otherwise. Even Magitech Knight doesn't interrupt Real Robot/Arsenal advancement.

Edit: I was wrong, it still gets a bonus feat (getting one at level 5). Basically you give up a bit of arsenal for great stat boosts.

I actually have some issues with and questions about Soul Soldier. I should write those up soon, while they're still in my head.

Stealth Knight-Specialized in both stealthing around and protecting others and hitting hard even while remaining hard to find even when on a mecha.

Mecha Thief-Can temporally steal weapons/accessories/spirits/maneuvers, find secret passages even if there weren't supposed to be any.

It was only a matter of time until we got Mecha!Rogue after Ranger, Pally, Bard, Psychic Warrior, and Wilder all showed up :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on October 17, 2018, 08:25:26 AM
Lol, the Soul Pilot's flavor is too sour and over powering. I did read over it, and is alright.

Real Reporter seems interesting, but that seems more like a none mecha class.

Mecha Thief seems cool, as does Veteran. I don't imagine me playing an old guy anytime soon though lol.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on October 20, 2018, 05:41:09 PM
Lol, the Soul Pilot's flavor is too sour and over powering. I did read over it, and is alright.

How about now? I like it a lot more now that it has multiple entry points and leaves room for a bit more variety in playstyle since osclecamo added the various suggestions.

That said, I actually would like a rogue/thief base class. It's more or less the last missing RPG archetype (except monk? builtins being sorta like natural weapons makes that not quite as relevant, though).

On the more-like-reals PrC side, one thing I think could be cool would be something like Sniper - a hard range focus. For example, Yoko is all about ranged combat even as a super pilot, and it crosses over with her focus on firearms on foot. Something like that would certainly work for any combat-focused or hybrid combat class, but I think reals especially would appreciate the specialization. It would probably have "X maneuvers and stances from the gun maniac school" or certain ranged-weapons-related feats (even ones from outside the homebrew???) in the prereqs. Benefits could include things like giving Hybrid to weapons that don't have it, extending the range on things, better crits, higher accuracy at longer ranges but lower accuracy at short ones, called shots, etc. Downsides could include less access to things that benefit melee (like maneuvers), restrictions on Area in favor of single targets, reduced ammo clip sizes, etc.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 23, 2018, 01:02:17 AM
Sniper sounds an interesting idea for prc.

Meanwhile posted what I have of the Techno Thief as base class, basics are all there now need to just finish the custom abilities, but feel free to comment on how it's looking so far.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 23, 2018, 11:46:56 AM
I'm still waiting for your people vs mecha classes that might never get made.   :p

Ugh, that was an unpleasant amount of time being sick.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Theseventh on October 23, 2018, 03:30:47 PM
Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting. 
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: CKirk on October 23, 2018, 05:59:21 PM
Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting.

That'd be because of us (my playgroup. Fzzr, a few others, and me). Turns out that when you can trade 25 arsenal space for an accessory, there's absolutely no reason ever to take any more than the minimum number of guns to be effective, trading the rest for accessories, because accessories provide such huge boosts. This change not only lowers the absurdity that some reals can get to with their stats, but also encourages a variety of weapons, bringing the system more in line with its source material. Also, weapon space and part space are different in SRW (the source game), so it's nice to have this as a call-out to it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on October 23, 2018, 10:45:49 PM
Meanwhile posted what I have of the Techno Thief as base class, basics are all there now need to just finish the custom abilities, but feel free to comment on how it's looking so far.

Stolen System is just... really, really unappealing. It seems like it would be next to impossible to focus a build around a playstyle when you never know what your mecha will be next level. You can't know if eg. your random accessory will be Nackt System when you already picked Metal Marauder. On top of that, the flexible super/real cross-class in other classes that can change each level benefit from targeting appropriate breakpoint levels to get the best use of each level. Lack of control over that makes it sub-par by default, even considering the random (potential) bonus. I also wouldn't want to always need to stat a new mecha from scratch every level - at higher levels you're looking at rolling lots of super upgrades and applying them to different reals every time, with all the stat tweaks that result. That's a lot of character sheets!

Instead of the randomness, I suggest that mecha acquisition work the same as all the other hybrid real/super classes (eg. Magitech Knight), fluffed as "theft". Instead of the crying/praying whatever the thing about stealing another mecha is fine.

The rest of the special restrictions on Stolen System just feel like they arbitrarily make it a worse class than others without contributing to balance. CKirk put it as "If a party can have a paladin and a rogue, a thief can get new guns on the party battleship."

Everything else about it is fine so far, a bit on the strong side given that it gets most of Rogue, Bonus Feats, and then the Mechajack features as well. I would suggest removing the use of Rogue features directly (except sneak attack) and instead mix similar-feeling options into the Mechajack lists.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Theseventh on October 24, 2018, 12:08:30 AM
Would this be the place to ask?
Why the change from Arsenal space to Hard Points for accessories? It suddenly feels really limiting.

That'd be because of us (my playgroup. Fzzr, a few others, and me). Turns out that when you can trade 25 arsenal space for an accessory, there's absolutely no reason ever to take any more than the minimum number of guns to be effective, trading the rest for accessories, because accessories provide such huge boosts. This change not only lowers the absurdity that some reals can get to with their stats, but also encourages a variety of weapons, bringing the system more in line with its source material. Also, weapon space and part space are different in SRW (the source game), so it's nice to have this as a call-out to it.

Am I reading the tables right though? Seems most people won't get more then 1, maybe 2 hard points? Unless I missed some class feature that ups it or gives an extra. That seems so few. So restricting. I get why the change, I also wondered why I should bother with a bunch of weapons when I could just load 1 up and get a ton of toys to upgrade it. But these seems like it's cutting too far in the other direction.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on October 24, 2018, 01:08:25 AM
Super Robot has upgrades for more hardpoints I think. There's also some feats that could assist. I know H.A.R.O., off the top of my head, can get you a couple accessories. Some SRW races can also gain accessories as a racial feature.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2018, 03:10:50 AM
I'm still waiting for your people vs mecha classes that might never get made.   :p
Ah thanks for the reminder, there's the first one.

Instead of the randomness, I suggest that mecha acquisition work the same as all the other hybrid real/super classes (eg. Magitech Knight), fluffed as "theft". Instead of the crying/praying whatever the thing about stealing another mecha is fine.
Fair point, but I still would like some custom trait to make it stand out a bit from properly supplied mechas.
 
If the 1d12-6 to stats doesn't sound that good to you either, I can work something more customized and less random.

The rest of the special restrictions on Stolen System just feel like they arbitrarily make it a worse class than others without contributing to balance. CKirk put it as "If a party can have a paladin and a rogue, a thief can get new guns on the party battleship."
I'm... Not really following that analogy.:psyduck

In particular because well I can't really recall any mecha show where battleships are sporting stolen guns, if anything the whole battleship is stolen, point.

Everything else about it is fine so far, a bit on the strong side given that it gets most of Rogue, Bonus Feats, and then the Mechajack features as well. I would suggest removing the use of Rogue features directly (except sneak attack) and instead mix similar-feeling options into the Mechajack lists.
That sounds like a good suggestion and yeah was a bit lazy just slapping the rogue abilities in there, although seems the Techno Thief will have to wait bit while I finish the Monado classes that have been waiting for quite a bit.

Am I reading the tables right though? Seems most people won't get more then 1, maybe 2 hard points? Unless I missed some class feature that ups it or gives an extra. That seems so few. So restricting. I get why the change, I also wondered why I should bother with a bunch of weapons when I could just load 1 up and get a ton of toys to upgrade it. But these seems like it's cutting too far in the other direction.
Yes it's intended that you usually just get 1-2 accessories to spice up your mecha since those are supposed to be extras on top. The mecha itself is supposed to be the main star, and the more hardpoints then the less the actual mecha abilities matter.

If you really want more hardpoints there's the upgrade options Ketaro mentioned and some reals get more base too, in particular the generic ones in the Real Pilot class itself.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on October 25, 2018, 05:46:54 AM
New Stolen System doesn't say how to acquire the System Quirks or how many or few you can select.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 25, 2018, 06:49:52 AM
New Stolen System doesn't say how to acquire the System Quirks or how many or few you can select.

Use your Techno Thief level to determine the kind of robot your Stolen System  can emulate, including Arsenal Options (your Techno Thief levels can count as either Real Pilot or Super Pilot levels, or any combination of those two classes), changeable at each level up, plus one of the following quirks, changeable at level up. The Techno Thief can steal change arsenal at any organization.
(click to show/hide)


Maybe you missed it because of the arsenal comment in between? Should I move said line somewhere else or is the bolded part not clear enough?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on October 25, 2018, 03:11:28 PM
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on October 25, 2018, 04:01:22 PM
If I'm a Techno Thief Moon Vanguard, can I use Vanguard Princess to make my Nano-Armour stolen property?

If so, how exactly would I make it Hot Property, fluffwise? Do I just call up some random military and start calling them a bunch of assholes for eight hours straight, and then their enemies are like "Check out the balls on that kid. Nice!"

Also, if I'm a pilot with particular requirements, like a Peace Princess, do all the Mecha I acquire through "totally legit" means meet those requirements, like being filled with nice but useless stuff as all Royal Robots are?

Oh yeah, and can Techno Thiefs "borrow until they die" a Mass-Produced super robot?

One more thing. Do Battleships stolen with Lacus Leftovers have crew, and can I steal an alternate class feature or flaw battleship?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on October 26, 2018, 04:06:42 PM
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.
I got confused too. Posted a suggested rewrite in that thread, check it out.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 28, 2018, 02:09:42 AM
Probably move it to the end right above the list it references. It definitely got lost in the block of text.
Applied Fzzr's suggestion, thanks for the helping spot.

If I'm a Techno Thief Moon Vanguard, can I use Vanguard Princess to make my Nano-Armour stolen property?
Yes.

If so, how exactly would I make it Hot Property, fluffwise? Do I just call up some random military and start calling them a bunch of assholes for eight hours straight, and then their enemies are like "Check out the balls on that kid. Nice!"
It would be more "check out the balls on that kid who stole a nano-armour from the random military. Nice!"


Also, if I'm a pilot with particular requirements, like a Peace Princess, do all the Mecha I acquire through "totally legit" means meet those requirements, like being filled with nice but useless stuff as all Royal Robots are?
Usually not right away, but nobody said you're stealing from just one source. :p

Oh yeah, and can Techno Thiefs "borrow until they die" a Mass-Produced super robot?
Indeed if you take the respective quirk.

One more thing. Do Battleships stolen with Lacus Leftovers have crew, and can I steal an alternate class feature or flaw battleship?
Good points, added clauses to cover that.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on October 28, 2018, 03:59:07 AM
.......

So, I'm ditching my existing nano-armour to steal a different one?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 28, 2018, 05:14:34 AM
Well you said Techno Thief Moon Vanguard so I assumed the Techno Thief levels came first, so you would be stealing your first Nano-Armor. :P

If you were a Moon Vanguard first then you would basically be stealing important military tech to upgrade your nano-armour.

But ditching an older model for something newer and shinier isn't impossible either.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 28, 2018, 08:48:49 PM
Os sure is good at cracking the whip in PMs and making sure that i don't neglect reviewing his stuff.  :p

Okay, I requested work on the Monado classes so I'll jump out of the Index and tackle those next.


Does Mark of Monado mean that while fighting mecha they gain all bonuses/penalties of being fine sized (such as +8 to hit but no reach)?  It looks like yes but I want to make sure.

Also I can't remember if this has come up.  Do mecha gain the bonuses from magic items their pilots are wearing?


Monado Master
Does the damage for other people trying to wield the monado replica happen once or every turn?

Does Monado Power: Shield negate one total or one per person?

Monado Phalanx
The Gunlance has made me look at the firearms, which brings up a question.  I assume that you have to pay for the weapons/shield that make up the gunlance as a first level character?

Monado Medic
So close to infinite out of combat healing... (PF has no usage cap on level 0 spells, not that that's really relevant.)

Spellcraft should be on the skill list.  Also Heal since Medic is in the class name.

Monado Mage
Spellcraft should be on the skill list.

Does Summon Copy have to copy another Summon X that you know?

Arcane Arts: Ether Blast should say that the Elemental Burst ends immediately.



Cross referencing I just realized that Divine Pilot references Sorcerer casting.  Is that intentional?

So you effectively (kind of) have rogue/fighter/cleric/wizard.  I'm going to guess that Myrmidon is paladin.  I have no idea what Maid is.

I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on October 28, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
Quote
I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective
Magic Items that grant permanent effects seem to transition through mecha. I.E. Belt of Strength.

IIRC
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 28, 2018, 11:13:53 PM
Does Mark of Monado mean that while fighting mecha they gain all bonuses/penalties of being fine sized (such as +8 to hit but no reach)?  It looks like yes but I want to make sure.
Correct, that's also why each of them gets a custom weapon for minimm 5 mu reach.

Also I can't remember if this has come up.  Do mecha gain the bonuses from magic items their pilots are wearing?
As Ketaro helpfully pointed out, yes for permanent effects that benefit the pilot.

Monado Master
Does the damage for other people trying to wield the monado replica happen once or every turn?
Per round, clarified.

Does Monado Power: Shield negate one total or one per person?
Per person, clarified too.


Monado Phalanx
The Gunlance has made me look at the firearms, which brings up a question.  I assume that you have to pay for the weapons/shield that make up the gunlance as a first level character?
Good point, allowed them to get a free martial weapon, automatic rifle with a clip and a light, heavy or tower shield for their first gunlance.

Monado Medic
So close to infinite out of combat healing... (PF has no usage cap on level 0 spells, not that that's really relevant.)
Basic Tome of Battle that can do it too with divine spirit maneuvers, just explain how trees/rocks are your ancient enemies. :p

Spellcraft should be on the skill list.  Also Heal since Medic is in the class name.
Ups, added. :blush

Monado Mage
Spellcraft should be on the skill list.
Done too.

Does Summon Copy have to copy another Summon X that you know?
Yes, clarified.

Arcane Arts: Ether Blast should say that the Elemental Burst ends immediately.
Done, applied it to Burst End too since it's also supposed to end Elemental Burst.

Cross referencing I just realized that Divine Pilot references Sorcerer casting.  Is that intentional?
Well it's supposed to be the same spell slot progression and mechanics except they're supposed to be divine instead of arcane, good eyes.

So you effectively (kind of) have rogue/fighter/cleric/wizard.  I'm going to guess that Myrmidon is paladin.  I have no idea what Maid is.
Correct in Myrmidon, Maid will basically be normal-humanoid-sized combat cyborg/android with super upgrades.

I don't know if these compare well with the mecha on a mathematical level but assuming that mecha don't get bonuses from magic items and only from accessories/class features they seem already from a theoretical perspective
I suppose you mean "alright" instead of "already" there.  :P

Now mechas can benefit from magic items that directly benefit their pilot stats, but one thing that mechas can't get is magic enhancement to attack/damage/rolls/AC (well they kinda can get magic enhancement with the Arcane Arsenal feat but can only be applied to lower tier weapons so I'll consider it a non-factor for now).

Plus the Monado Classes each get a custom weapon that further buffs their stats. At 20th level the weapon could be giving +6 to AC/attacks/saves. Then they're also fine-sized so that's another +8 to AC/attacks and they can stack armor/weapon magic enhancements on top so another +5 to attack/AC for a total of +19 AC/attack.

A standard super robot would get+6 to saves base, +11 attack rolls from targeting and +24 AC from 2 base plus plating+agility. Those numbers may shift if you go with fancier upgrades and depending on accessory pick, but at base looks alright to me, with the super robot being tankier but also less precise.

Does that sound good? If yes, then I'll move to doing the Monado Myrmidon and Maid.

Thanks once more for your great help!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 29, 2018, 12:25:52 AM
Oh, for Divine Pilot you're doing sorcerer because you don't like referencing non-core classes. Got it, I can live with that.

I have no issues with free out of combat healing, it was just a tangent because I had to go check which ruleset had unlimited level 0 spells.

I look forward to Myrmidon and Maid.

I think that the numbers are all fine in terms of attack vs saves vs AC and everyone can get fancy stuff but different kinds of fancy stuff.  I don't know if WBL static bonuses plus accessories is better than cherry picking magic items but everything seems on the up and up without a deep dive into mathland which I'm only so good at (as I've mentioned).

The only other concern that I can think of is hp. I've been keeping an eye on your SRW game since I started looking at this project and a lot of damage gets thrown around. Monado classes don't get two pools of HP. I don't know how big of an actual problem this is or the best way to address it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on October 29, 2018, 01:21:07 AM
The only other concern that I can think of is hp. I've been keeping an eye on your SRW game since I started looking at this project and a lot of damage gets thrown around. Monado classes don't get two pools of HP. I don't know how big of an actual problem this is or the best way to address it.

A valid concern. It's not exactly two pools of HP since if one's mecha gets blown up it's best to start thinking about retreat, but it does serve as an insurance since getting back a destroyed mecha is usually easier than getting back a killed pilot. The mechas themselves will usually have more HP than your average character although a character pumping up their Con can get more, and there's some racial abilities that allow one to use their personal HP for their mecha, but then both pools basically become one.

Now I made the Monado Medic able to "heal" dead allies just in case they get unlucky, but now I realize there's the problem of what happens if your medic is the one going down (or if you have no medic).

In the original game, there's this nifty mechanic where if a party member gets to 0 HP, you can go stand next to them and get them back on their feet by sacrificing part of the "limit break" bar and it it also heals them for a reasonable amount so they don't go down right away. I think that could help cover things here, probably using spirit points as the cost. Make it a default of Mark of Monado, as a standard action can bring back an adjacent Mark of Monado ally that's been dead for no more than 1 round per PL and heal them 1d6 HP per 2 spirit points spent. Twice spirit cost to do it as move, triple spirit to do it as swift. So Monado classes are squishier (as they should be since they're not inside mechas) but just keep standing back up as long one of them remains and has enough spirit. How does that sound?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on October 29, 2018, 01:54:43 PM
I'm not really sure how I feel about it to be honest.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on November 02, 2018, 09:05:02 PM
Monado Myrmidon

I think that Lay on Feet should say that it isn't active as long as you aren't prone instead of not tripped.

Astra Art should specify that they Gifts apply to Lay on Feet.


Monado Maiden

Hmm, interesting.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 02, 2018, 10:20:35 PM
Monado Myrmidon

I think that Lay on Feet should say that it isn't active as long as you aren't prone instead of not tripped.
Yeah, that sounds better.

Astra Art should specify that they Gifts apply to Lay on Feet.
Done too.

Monado Maiden

Hmm, interesting.
Excellent.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on November 05, 2018, 01:46:53 AM
Reminder to add short descriptions for maneuvers/stances to Beam Barrage, Everywhere You Go, and Missile Massacre.

In the index, "Arsenal-weapons and acessories." should be "Arsenal-weapons and accessories."
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 05, 2018, 03:55:12 AM
That should be all taken care of except for Missile Massacre short descriptions that will probably need to wait until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 05, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
And missile massacre short descriptions added too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on November 10, 2018, 08:00:50 PM
So, on the topic of fun and balance. Note: for the purpose of this post I'm referring exclusively to things from within this homebrew (not monster classes and the like) and to single-track builds, no gestalt. I'm also focusing on combat here - let's take it as a given that any class can be made interesting for non-combat purposes. I'm also ignoring Einst Queen because I find it doesn't suffer from any of the problems here, being essentially all three main types of classes in one.

I still hold that Real Pilot is the best combat class due to the Real Robot builtins and models being just that good, plus full arsenal access and more accessories. The thing is, I also find them to be one of the least interesting classes due to having relatively little possible customization. Ironically, the most powerful feature of Reals (the choice of model) is also the most limiting, with only half a dozen choices per tier. The alternative, generics, are undercut by being largely worse than the premade models on the basis of stats, features, and weapons. This is because Real builtins are somewhat better than Arsenal, and premade Real models will end up with more weapons due to having access to builtins and arsenal at the same time. The other classes (not counting Mecha Mook) that get Real Robots but not Super upgrades are Divine Pilot, Mecha Marine, and Prodigy Pilot, all of which can cast or manifest. Every other class is Super-based or hybrid.

This interacts with a few other issues, as well. Due to the way cross-classing works, Real-based classes and hybrid classes always feel Real-first, something else second. The reason for this is that anything that gives you a level in Real Pilot gives you a Real Robot you can customize, instead of feeling like it supplements the other class. As a result, more than half the classes in the homebrew are exposed to the issue of choosing among half a dozen base builds per tier unless they make the affirmative choice to be pure Super for hybrid purposes. On the other hand, they're still more interesting than Real Pilot because they benefit from more customization between real tier breakpoints as they can apply Super upgrades during that point, plus they each have their own distinct set of class features. When you combine this with the numerical superiority of the Real models and access to Arsenal a full tier higher, most builds have to choose to be less interesting to be more powerful. For contrast, the reason that Star Sniper is so promising is that it feels like a Real, but with more interesting class features instead of just having worse stats. (Note, I'm not suggesting turning Star Sniper into a base class, just using it as an example.)

On the other side of the power curve: Ship Captain is other least interesting class to play, and the hardest to make combat-effective. It gets slow Arsenal progression, but can't meaningfully access it without cross-classing or directly sacrificing another class feature via the Combat Commander ACF. It benefits even less than Super-based and hybrid Real/Super classes from cross-classing with real-based classes, essentially ending up just worse than both. (At least Real/Super helps the Real model one chooses, Ship Captain just ends up with an under-leveled Real and an under-leveled Battleship.) It gets all the downsides of size, but none of the upsides. It's only possible to hit things without extra resource expenditure (maneuvers/spirits) or by making the first Distinguished Officer a Weapons Officer. Adding Distinguished Officer variety helped a bit with customizablity, since it's at least possible to focus a bit on one's favorite part of the class. Nonetheless, Ship Captain is arguably even less customizable than Real Pilot, but without the benefit of combat effectiveness. The one thing BB does well is buffs thanks to martial school choice and spirit discounts, but having one way to play isn't a lot of fun, especially since in the end it comes down to "do things to make other classes better at being useful".

The BB variety issue may be harder to solve, as (per other players from my game) the most fun BBs are the ones that are combat effective (Yamato, Neo Nautilus) or that don't really represent a pure BB (ie Choujinga Dai-Gurren and Shin Dragon, which are more like Super/BB crosses). The signature abilities of those BBs are represented in the class already, the main issue is the lack of effectiveness.

To summarize, there are four main types of classes:

In order of raw power, they are:

In order of fun to use, they are:

In short, class power is roughly inversely correlated with how interesting it is to play. This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.

Addendum: Even if you don't agree with the assertion that Reals are numerically superior, the rest of the issues with Real and BB not being as fun as other classes apply, just without the element of compromise on power. If you take that view, then there's no point to playing a Real at all, because everything else is equally powerful but more interesting.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 10, 2018, 09:16:57 PM
Ok, let's see if I can reply properly to your great post.

To summarize, there are four main types of classes:
  • Real-Based
  • Super-Based
  • Real/Super Hybrid
  • Battleship-Based
Considering einst queen is being left aside for now I agree.

In order of raw power, they are:
  • Real-based
  • Real/Super hybrid
  • Super-Based
  • Battleship-Based
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.

In order of fun to use, they are:
  • Super-Based or Real/Super hybrid
  • Battleship-Based
  • Real-based

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?

Addendum: Even if you don't agree with the assertion that Reals are numerically superior, the rest of the issues with Real and BB not being as fun as other classes apply, just without the element of compromise on power. If you take that view, then there's no point to playing a Real at all, because everything else is equally powerful but more interesting.

But that's the thing, I believe there needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town. Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.

(https://i.imgsafe.org/78/78a6d7332a.jpeg)

And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzzr on November 11, 2018, 12:16:08 AM
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.
Somehow I had it in my head that they lose their arsenal access, but that only applies to Soul Soldier, not the base classes. The main point of differentiation between Reals and the Real/Super hybrids is maneuvers and bonus feats vs their class features. In retrospect though, you're right: Statistically, Techno Thief and Magitech Knight are potentially the most powerful base classes in raw mecha numbers, mitigated somewhat by the Stolen System quirk and Code of Conduct respectively. I'll need to think about that in more detail. That said, bringing Reals down in power somewhat would mean that they're naturally just like playing a Real/Super x-class with some flavor instead of just being Better.

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
BBs need numerical boosts in TH primarily, but I'll let others dive into those details. Supers mostly don't need buffs if the top level to-hit, damage, and AC (especially this) on Reals come down somewhat. BB combat ACF is reasonable for itself, the problem is more that the Custom Ship feature (Arsenal) is useless without it. Custom Ship needs to be better or useful in some other way, so that the ACF can enhance it instead of be mandatory to use it. I don't know how to make BB/real x-class work better, it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.

-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?
Top level AC is the other big issue with reals - anything but another Real (and even them sometimes) need Strike or tons of buffs to hit them. Another way to look at the issue is that at the top level, the roll barely matters at all - it's all an arms race between TH and AC, and AC wins in the end. Generics don't need a buff, they're only weak compared to pre-built reals. Compared to other classes they're pretty reasonable.

e needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town.
I can accept that on Reals being the drop-in-and-go option. If the pre-built Reals weren't so far ahead of the generics it would actually feel like they have much more choice now that there are more generics per tier than pre-built models. I'm not questioning that role, just the fact that they don't stand out in any way other than numbers. I guess what it comes down to is that Real Pilot is the only class without a truly unique class feature. Even Super Robot, the other "vanilla" class, has Favored Maneuver to distinguish itself from the Super-based classes. That's about as small a point of customization as can be, but it's something to draw you in.

Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.
As for BBs... I know they're like that in the games, but that's exactly the problem. In the games, the player controls lots of units, and BBs are few and far between. This lets you (the player) focus the fun on the more varied mecha. In tabletop, someone is dedicated to largely a single character, and if that class is boring, there isn't something else to do. I don't think every BB needs to be as broken as the Yamato, that's just an example of why some BBs are fun in their own right - they're able to proactively contribute.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.
More real options would certainly help across the board. Generics are only weak statistically by comparison to the pre-built Reals - they're reasonable until the very top level compared to other classes.

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.
Exclusive feats was actually something I was going to bring up in the future, since a few classes are still missing them. That's certainly something that could help.

And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?
In the end, yes, a Real will have better default stats than any other class. It's just a matter of degree. I think the first four or five tiers of generic Reals are about the sweet spot. They start with stats commensurate with or a bit ahead of other classes, and then customize with weapons and accessories to taste.

Einst Queen isn't really a good example for balance, because it gets its strength from multitudes rather than raw numbers, see below.

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
Einst drones do indeed start with limited models and can by default can only be modified with Bioweapons (like Arsenal weapons). They're individually weaker than mecha, but that's fine since they make up for it in quantity. The reason that's not a problem is that Einst are different from everything else. I think the three queen types are a strength there, not a weakness. The reason they're interesting is that precisely what you point out - each Queen type interacts with the drones differently (mutations/maneuvers/spells). Einst Queen is almost three classes in one, or one class with two major ACFs. Adaptive queen is the most limited there, but the some of the options it gets are still distinct from anything available to other classes. There are also more choices than it seems just by looking - consider how many accessories are "the last one but better". On top of that, the ability to make the drones have different types and levels mean that at any given Einst Queen level you have a wider array of actual build options than it would seem by looking at a single drone. The Einst Queen feats give you a wide variety of tactical options if you want them. Einst Queens also don't suffer from the key disadvantage of other classes when they cross with Reals, because they still get to use the rest of their class features in a way that doesn't make it seem like they switched their primary playstyle to be Real-based.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 11, 2018, 08:25:27 AM
If you don't mind me asking, how can the real/super hybrid be below the pure real? Because the hybrid should be able to do all that the real does but with upgrade customization on top.
Somehow I had it in my head that they lose their arsenal access, but that only applies to Soul Soldier, not the base classes. The main point of differentiation between Reals and the Real/Super hybrids is maneuvers and bonus feats vs their class features. In retrospect though, you're right: Statistically, Techno Thief and Magitech Knight are potentially the most powerful base classes in raw mecha numbers, mitigated somewhat by the Stolen System quirk and Code of Conduct respectively. I'll need to think about that in more detail. That said, bringing Reals down in power somewhat would mean that they're naturally just like playing a Real/Super x-class with some flavor instead of just being Better.
Ok, thanks.

This is the source of much of the frustration you've heard from us over the years. Much of our feedback has revolved around the Super/Real dichotomy - reducing the power on high-level weapons that only reals can truly access, and giving Supers access to options to keep up with Reals in more ways. Battleship is now even further behind as a result, and I suggest looking into ways to improve BB build variety.
Ok, so just to make sure I'm understanding your points properly, you're suggesting to:
-Supers/battleships should be buffed up numbers-wise (with battleships getting greater boosts).
-Battleship multiclassing with real/super too weak, buff up.
-Battleshiip combat ACF too weak, buff up.
-Battleships need more build options.
BBs need numerical boosts in TH primarily, but I'll let others dive into those details. Supers mostly don't need buffs if the top level to-hit, damage, and AC (especially this) on Reals come down somewhat. BB combat ACF is reasonable for itself, the problem is more that the Custom Ship feature (Arsenal) is useless without it. Custom Ship needs to be better or useful in some other way, so that the ACF can enhance it instead of be mandatory to use it. I don't know how to make BB/real x-class work better, it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Ok, so something like every 2 captain levels grant +1 to hit with the base weapons? Or maybe different progressions for each, +2 per level for anti-air, +1 per level for missiles, +1/2 level for Beam cannon.

Battleships do have one hardpoint and Custom Ship grants arsenal access to use that hardpoint.

I could grant full arsenal progression for battleships so they can put their hardpoint to better use.

Will try to think of something for real/captain multiclass (could just pump up the raw numbers I guess).

-The only thing that should be toned down on the reals are the current top weapons (any more problematic weapons on arsenals or just in-built?)
-You also said that the real generics are too weak, should they be buffed up as well?
Top level AC is the other big issue with reals - anything but another Real (and even them sometimes) need Strike or tons of buffs to hit them. Another way to look at the issue is that at the top level, the roll barely matters at all - it's all an arms race between TH and AC, and AC wins in the end. Generics don't need a buff, they're only weak compared to pre-built reals. Compared to other classes they're pretty reasonable.
Something I don't understand here, generic Dodge+Natural Armor only lags 2 points behind named reals. And then there's a bunch of smaller generics that will make them harder to hit, while named reals don't go below small and several are large/huge and even the gargantuan Banpreios that will end up with actually worst AC than generics. Doubly so because generics get as much if not more hardpoints than named reals in average.

Assuming no hardpoints, the named reals should be a bit behind basic supers (real +22 between dodge and natural armor vs super 24 from 2 base +2x11  from plating/dodge).
Assuming hardpoints, the generics have more of them to spend around. So how exactly are the named ones pulling ahead?

Speaking of which Ckirk's table leads me to believe your group seems to have missed the clauses for heavier arsenal shields/armors. In particular the arsenal shields can be negated by simple flanking or making the target flat-flooted, while the heavier armors halve/negate Dodge bonus, and both have extra penalties for the higher grades like the bigger shields preventing from using multiple weapons while the bigger armors slow the mecha down.

If you consider that the penalties are not significant enough, I can go reduce the AC bonus of the heavier arsenal shields/armors.

But again, the generics would still end up with about the same AC, and if I reduce the base AC of the named reals then the generics would pull (further) ahead.

e needs to be a simple option. I understand your group prefers deeper customization, but there's also people out there that want to be able to just pick a mecha with stats already prepared with a bunch of weapons and go to town.
I can accept that on Reals being the drop-in-and-go option. If the pre-built Reals weren't so far ahead of the generics it would actually feel like they have much more choice now that there are more generics per tier than pre-built models. I'm not questioning that role, just the fact that they don't stand out in any way other than numbers. I guess what it comes down to is that Real Pilot is the only class without a truly unique class feature. Even Super Robot, the other "vanilla" class, has Favored Maneuver to distinguish itself from the Super-based classes. That's about as small a point of
customization as can be, but it's something to draw you in.
Hmmm, how about favored feats? Aka the real pilot would be able to count as having extra picks of some multi-pick feats, including being able to go over the normal caps. So Favored Feat +1(Counter) would allow the real pilot to have Counter x2 even if they're below PL 4 for example.

Ditto for battleships, they're supposed to be simple mobile bases with a bunch of big guns (that surprisingly are just about as effective as smaller mecha weapons) supporting from behind. Yamato and Neo Nautilius are the exception in the series, not the rule, and thus at best should be ACFs.
As for BBs... I know they're like that in the games, but that's exactly the problem. In the games, the player controls lots of units, and BBs are few and far between. This lets you (the player) focus the fun on the more varied mecha. In tabletop, someone is dedicated to largely a single character, and if that class is boring, there isn't something else to do. I don't think every BB needs to be as broken as the Yamato, that's just an example of why some BBs are fun in their own right - they're able to proactively contribute.
More acuratte weapons should help with that.

Something else that's been floating around my mind would be a feat to make the Leader feat more proactive, as in instead of a flat +X to attack/AC you could change the bonus around for more offense or more defense or extra movement. I could make it scale up with captain levels.

Now the main problem seems that there's not enough real options, in particular since you claim generics are too weak. I can go work on more reals, buff the generics if that's the case.
More real options would certainly help across the board. Generics are only weak statistically by comparison to the pre-built Reals - they're reasonable until the very top level compared to other classes.
Generics good compared to non-reals, that's good to hear... But then what exactly pushing named reals so much ahead in your opinion? Again, in something like AC they're actually pretty close, and the other raw values shouldn't be that different (besides the smaller generics that get significantly reduced HP, but G.U.N.D.A.M.S and V.A.L.K.Y.R.I.E.S are quite close, actually pulling ahead of the squishier named reals). The only significant advantage of the named reals to me seems to be the in-built weapons (plus some specials like regeneration, but then it's a case-by-case problem).

Also we can make more prcs a la Star Sniper to offer further customization paths for reals. Another idea I had floating around was a real-only self-engineering feat for reals to represent stuff like Amuro who can tweak their machines (and only their machines) a bit during downtime.
Exclusive feats was actually something I was going to bring up in the future, since a few classes are still missing them. That's certainly something that could help.
Funny since Reals right now have Real Rank and supers don't have any exclusive feat. :p

And yes, mechas with fixed stats should have slightly higher raw power, because mechas with customizeable stats will end up being, well, more customizeable and be able to make up for the raw difference with better synergies. Now if the difference is too big it needs to be toned down, but again I would like you to tell me what's the ideal "middle point" that would be best to aim at. Einst Queen numbers since you claimed it to be the one with no problems?
In the end, yes, a Real will have better default stats than any other class. It's just a matter of degree. I think the first four or five tiers of generic Reals are about the sweet spot. They start with stats commensurate with or a bit ahead of other classes, and then customize with weapons and accessories to taste.

Einst Queen isn't really a good example for balance, because it gets its strength from multitudes rather than raw numbers, see below.

Although now that I think about it, it's a bit weird to me that you claim Einst Queen's pretty cool but Real Pilot's too limited. Why? Einst Queen drone list is smaller than the real robot list, the list of bioweapons and mutations is also shorter than the list of arsenal weapons and accessories, and to pick up the mutations you need to give up on maneuver/spellcasting progression. The way I see it, the Einst Queen's even more limited than the Real Pilot and one of the things in my to-do list is expanding the drones/bioweapons/mutation lists.

So what is it exactly that makes you like the einst queen but not the real pilot? If we can pinpoint that key difference, it would be a great help.
Einst drones do indeed start with limited models and can by default can only be modified with Bioweapons (like Arsenal weapons). They're individually weaker than mecha, but that's fine since they make up for it in quantity. The reason that's not a problem is that Einst are different from everything else. I think the three queen types are a strength there, not a weakness. The reason they're interesting is that precisely what you point out - each Queen type interacts with the drones differently (mutations/maneuvers/spells). Einst Queen is almost three classes in one, or one class with two major ACFs. Adaptive queen is the most limited there, but the some of the options it gets are still distinct from anything available to other classes. There are also more choices than it seems just by looking - consider how many accessories are "the last one but better". On top of that, the ability to make the drones have different types and levels mean that at any given Einst Queen level you have a wider array of actual build options than it would seem by looking at a single drone. The Einst Queen feats give you a wide variety of tactical options if you want them. Einst Queens also don't suffer from the key disadvantage of other classes when they cross with Reals, because they still get to use the rest of their class features in a way that doesn't make it seem like they switched their primary playstyle to be Real-based.
So, how would you feel about an option for real pilots to use a lower tier real in return for getting some extra machines of the same reduced tier with "free" elite grunts to pilot them? The grunts get the same stats as the real pilot while close (only main pilot gets spirit but can share with the whole squad), representing close team training, but training replacements wouldn't be that hard.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on November 23, 2018, 02:54:53 AM
Seems like there was some forum problem and all the posts/edits/PMs done a couple days ago were erased, so here's to applying Nanshork's most recent suggested fixes again that I recall since his post is gone too. Peace Princess Hesitation now has a range, Mecha Marine ACFs had some copy-pasta errors from Steel Soldier, added Sense Motive to Mecha Marine and to the other classes that didn't have it yet as well.

Now on some great news, Super Robot Wars T (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y84b7nHOMmc) announced!

For Switch!!

And newcomers are
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on November 23, 2018, 07:32:31 AM
Bebop and Rayearth? Fuck ya, looks like I'm going to have to attempt to play it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on November 23, 2018, 08:14:50 PM
We might be able to get the posts back but that's still up in the air.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 01, 2018, 10:52:00 AM
Been over one week, any news about getting back the old posts or if at least the forum won't eat our stuff anymore?

So I had an idea, how about mecha traits? Like to represent the different ways certain companies build differently... then again I guess there literally different models
After making the Techno Thief was wondering about something like that but wasn’t sure if people would be interested in another layer of complexity, although if they’re simple and capped at 2 it could turn out good.

(click to show/hide)
Heavy Frame[+2 DR|-2 Dodge]
Light Frame[+2 Dodge|-2 DR]
Elegant Frame[+2 Reflex|-2 Fort]
Bright Frame[+2 Will|-2 Reflex]
Dull Frame[+2 Fort|-2 Will]
Scout Frame[+10 mu movement speed|-10% HP]
Guardian Frame[1/2 movement speed|+10% HP]
Storage Frame[+10% energy/-10% HP]


Also I'm thinking about making a trait/feat that allows you to temporarily seal your magical/supernatural abilities for combat enhancements. Basically you'd only be able to use none supernatural manuevers and regular attacks in exchange for basic combat offense/defense augmentation and maybe a few tricks.... Erm I'm mostly just bouncing ideas around atm.

Sounds interesting, but if you can turn it on/off at will, then should be at least a feat. Also do you want it to demand you have actual magic/su stuff to pick up or can you just be a non-magic guy in the first place and don’t lose anything?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on December 01, 2018, 11:03:49 AM
No news related to the old posts.  I'm talking to Strat about it and some other (much more minor) board issues. 

I reviewed three different people's stuff in posts that got eaten, I'm waiting for all of that to get sorted out one way or another before getting back to work.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on December 01, 2018, 12:39:40 PM
Those traits look good.

Also my second idea isn't entirely a SRW one lol. But I'm not sure for someone who's normal. On one hand they have nothing to give up, on the other hand it is about focusing on combat talent... I'm still sorting it out in my head. Maybe they have weaker, permanent buffs while others have stronger, limited time buffs? In the cause of not being permanent I think the time the abilities are disabled would be longer than the state itself.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 03, 2018, 03:54:06 AM
No news related to the old posts.  I'm talking to Strat about it and some other (much more minor) board issues. 

I reviewed three different people's stuff in posts that got eaten, I'm waiting for all of that to get sorted out one way or another before getting back to work.
Since I believe one of those people you were reviewing for is Strat, that's probably the best motivation for him to work on that. "Fix this or no more reviews for you!". :p

Those traits look good.
Nice, added them to the traits thread and will be adding more as ideas come up.

Also my second idea isn't entirely a SRW one lol. But I'm not sure for someone who's normal. On one hand they have nothing to give up, on the other hand it is about focusing on combat talent... I'm still sorting it out in my head. Maybe they have weaker, permanent buffs while others have stronger, limited time buffs? In the cause of not being permanent I think the time the abilities are disabled would be longer than the state itself.
Remember the usual D&D problem that if you allow to go all nova with limited resources, players may just have 5-minutes workdays.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on December 03, 2018, 09:43:46 PM
No news related to the old posts.  I'm talking to Strat about it and some other (much more minor) board issues. 

I reviewed three different people's stuff in posts that got eaten, I'm waiting for all of that to get sorted out one way or another before getting back to work.
Since I believe one of those people you were reviewing for is Strat, that's probably the best motivation for him to work on that. "Fix this or no more reviews for you!". :p

I do review for him, but I didn't post a review for him that day.   :lol
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 04, 2018, 11:44:24 AM
Okay, so

-gross knuckle cracking sounds-

Do I need to manually add a trait to my Nano-Armour, or can I do it via my reconfiguration?

Like, going from a Light Zaku to a Scout Gundam?


And if I'm an einst queen, can I add traits to my drones?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 05, 2018, 08:09:12 AM
Okay, so

-gross knuckle cracking sounds-

Do I need to manually add a trait to my Nano-Armour, or can I do it via my reconfiguration?

Like, going from a Light Zaku to a Scout Gundam?
Quick Reconfiguration would allow you to change traits along the mecha model yes.

And if I'm an einst queen, can I add traits to my drones?

Sure, added note on the class for that.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 06, 2018, 03:49:14 PM
Just realised that Super Robots no longer have berserk buttons.

Hopefully this is not intentional, as I was quite a fan of my Earth Vector Artificial

Offhandedly, would I be able to add photon power to it, or can I only have one Berserk Button, assuming they are still an intended feature?

If so, could Eva and Photon Power be active together, or do I need to only be berserking in one form at a time?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 06, 2018, 05:53:34 PM
Ups, seems like it got deleted by accident during the latest re-organization, added back in.

You can technically pick multiple Berserk Buttons, but only one Berserk ability may be active at a time regardless of which ones.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 07, 2018, 02:35:18 PM
I also finally realised that Ship Captains don't actually get anything for having two black belts in Chinese Star from taking TOUHOU
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 08, 2018, 02:47:27 AM
Good point, added that a Chinese Star T.O.U.H.O.U. in a battleship can initiate trips and grapples as well as maintain grapples which normal battleship captains can't do.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 08, 2018, 04:17:03 AM
How exactly would that work, fluffwise?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on December 08, 2018, 04:21:23 PM
Ever seen Outlaw Star? Their ships have arms.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 08, 2018, 04:36:30 PM
That was a weird thing.

The magic-shooting gun was nice.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on December 08, 2018, 10:27:16 PM
Grappling guns.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2018, 01:14:48 AM
Ever seen Outlaw Star? Their ships have arms.

Yeah that's something along what I had in mind, clarified.

The magic-shooting gun was nice.
Yeah it was, Outlaw Caster added to personal equipment and Mega Outlaw Caster to special weapons.

Grappling guns.

Check out the Hook line of special weapons on the Arsenal.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on December 09, 2018, 01:30:50 AM
No limit on the type of spells Outlaw Caster can fire? I mean I wouldn't like stuff like wish or miracle on bullets as one bad example. Mostly just cause it doesn't make sense. Summon spells don't make sense either as another example.

 I know from TC X0 Lt 0X's scroll crafting handbook that you can make most any spell for almost nothing if not for free in scroll form with enough effort, as an aside in relation to being able to use craft scroll to make bullets for it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2018, 01:38:00 AM
I would say that if you already have a source of free wish/miracle scrolls, you don't really need an Outlaw Caster to abuse them, you could just use the scrolls the normal way, but you've got a point so added a clause that Caster Shells can't have their price reduced/ignored by any means. The Mega Outlaw Caster specifies the pilot themselves must pay any extra costs themselves when shooting thus bypassing any crafting shenigans.

As for summoning bullets, that's actually a thing here and there. Like the whole plot of Fire Emblem Heroes is that the player character has a pair of guns that summon heroes.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on December 09, 2018, 01:41:53 AM
Well getting the weapon enhancement to the spell DCs is pretty worth getting one when you can have free bullet spells with it.

Well FEH is totally just non canon fan service, come on  :lmao
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 09, 2018, 01:54:37 AM
Besides now having discount options removed, take in account the Outlaw Caster has somewhat limited range and single-target spells that would be auto-hit now need an actual attack roll.

And "non canon fan service" would be a pretty exact way of describing Super Robot Wars games in general. :lmao

So, what about Valcazard's final attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vj1ATBB39Q)?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on December 09, 2018, 02:59:41 AM
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 09, 2018, 03:07:22 AM
If I'm a moon vanguard, do I need to go to a base to reload my Mega Outlaw Caster, or is Moon Bitch Clarketech just that advanced, that it reloads the shells as part of its daily refresh of the ammo and suchlike?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 11, 2018, 12:54:38 AM
To play in the safe side, not even Moon Bitch Clarketech can reload a Mega Outlaw Caster, will need to go to a proper base.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 11, 2018, 03:02:41 AM
What if I reconfigure it to get rid of the old one and replace it with a different one, that just happens to be loaded with the same spell?

Also, just to check, if I'm a Moon Vanguard, will my Internet Explorer maneuvers work on the fleshies, or do they only work vs mecha?

One more thing, if I'm a Tactical Leader and I have decided to start giving more Aggressive Orders, could I go back to just shouting non-specific but generally motivating things, instead of changing to Defensive Orders or whatever? And does having a Star-Lotus Ship make me Captain enough, or would I have to settle for having X be half my level?

And another thing, if I'm a Wonderful Shrine Maiden Of Paradise with a big enough holy symbol, can my mecha use it as a flail?

Additionally, if I'm a multiclassed Moon Vanguard/Einst Queen, and my nanoarmour is mimimcing a non-generic real, can I replace in-built weapons with bioweapons?

Quote
The mecha cannot have any armor or clothing for the benefits to be gained while piloting.

So, wait, mechs can wear clothing? I can make a dress for my GUNDAM? HOW DID IT TAKE ME THIS LONG TO REALISE THIS?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 16, 2018, 05:01:43 AM
What if I reconfigure it to get rid of the old one and replace it with a different one, that just happens to be loaded with the same spell?
That's impossible since there's no different Outlaw Caster to replace, there's only one model so reconfiguring an Outlaw Caster into an Outlaw Caster is just a waste of reconfiguration.

Also, just to check, if I'm a Moon Vanguard, will my Internet Explorer maneuvers work on the fleshies, or do they only work vs mecha?
Internet Explorer also affects meatbags as seen in the real world.

One more thing, if I'm a Tactical Leader and I have decided to start giving more Aggressive Orders, could I go back to just shouting non-specific but generally motivating things, instead of changing to Defensive Orders or whatever?
When you can apply a Tactical Leader option, you can reverse the leader aura to "normal" instead.

And does having a Star-Lotus Ship make me Captain enough, or would I have to settle for having X be half my level?
A star-lotus ship would be limited to half level yes.

And another thing, if I'm a Wonderful Shrine Maiden Of Paradise with a big enough holy symbol, can my mecha use it as a flail?
Yes, but it would still be a non-mecha weapon.

Additionally, if I'm a multiclassed Moon Vanguard/Einst Queen, and my nanoarmour is mimimcing a non-generic real, can I replace in-built weapons with bioweapons?
Yes.

Quote
The mecha cannot have any armor or clothing for the benefits to be gained while piloting.

So, wait, mechs can wear clothing? I can make a dress for my GUNDAM? HOW DID IT TAKE ME THIS LONG TO REALISE THIS?

(https://i.imgsafe.org/62/621a52fb11.png)

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 16, 2018, 12:51:25 PM
1: Okay, so what if i reconfigure to get rid of it, then reconfigure to have it again? Or, less wastefully, reconfigure to have one loaded with a different  spell?

2: If I'm just a lone Moon Vanguard, no Pilots in my party, are there even bases for me to resupply at?

3: Fluffwise, if my Nano-Armor has an E.V.A system, what is happening? Is it a cyborg or...what's going on there?

4: Actually, I usually just ignored Riverside View due to it requiring an acceptance of mortality, but are battleships boats? What about seaships or submarines?

5: With Ammo Rack, do we round up or down?

6: Do I strictly need to dabble in the Forbidden Arts to give my mech fabulous cable hair or can I just give it the hair without going through the whole hulabaloo of tracking down the lost scrolls that tell of Immortal Smoke or the Fate Of Sixty Years or whatever?

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 18, 2018, 02:48:12 AM
1: Okay, so what if i reconfigure to get rid of it, then reconfigure to have it again? Or, less wastefully, reconfigure to have one loaded with a different  spell?
You end up with an empty Mega Outlaw Caster because no special abilities can make mega caster shells. Please don't ask anymore if special ability can make mega caster shells. They can't.

2: If I'm just a lone Moon Vanguard, no Pilots in my party, are there even bases for me to resupply at?
Yes, don't even need to look that high tech. There's always some forgotten super prototype stuff buried around if you know what you're looking for.

3: Fluffwise, if my Nano-Armor has an E.V.A system, what is happening? Is it a cyborg or...what's going on there?
Implying anybody knew what was going on the original evangelion.

Although the name may bring memories of cyborgs, an E.V.A. system's actual technical details are still completely up to the player.

4: Actually, I usually just ignored Riverside View due to it requiring an acceptance of mortality, but are battleships boats? What about seaships or submarines?
Those would work too yes.

5: With Ammo Rack, do we round up or down?
Up.

6: Do I strictly need to dabble in the Forbidden Arts to give my mech fabulous cable hair or can I just give it the hair without going through the whole hulabaloo of tracking down the lost scrolls that tell of Immortal Smoke or the Fate Of Sixty Years or whatever?

(https://i.imgsafe.org/c4/c4533c4ab9.jpeg)

Sure thing.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 18, 2018, 03:08:26 AM
Okay, sorry For bothering you, I'm just the kind of guy who wants to be sure about these things.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 18, 2018, 03:42:11 AM
Thank you for your understanding, and it's still better to ask to be sure than never do.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on December 21, 2018, 07:50:08 PM
Internet Explorer 1st level Maneuver "Your System is Infected"

What happens if your basic attack as part of the maneuver is an AOE attack? Does it still only apply to one of multiple enemies or does it apply to all enemies successfully hit?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 23, 2018, 12:02:45 AM
All enemies successfully hit
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 25, 2018, 02:55:01 PM
FYI, the Tactical Leader list got messed up as well, since you are presumably going to fix what got altered by this change
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on December 30, 2018, 08:14:32 AM
FYI, the Tactical Leader list got messed up as well, since you are presumably going to fix what got altered by this change

Nanshork said he'll work on fixing the forum code itself when he has the time and hopefully that will get the posts to show properly again. Otherwise I'll need to basically go all over my homebrew and try to clean it manually and let's just say I'm not looking forward to that because that would be a lot of stuff to look over and edit.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on December 30, 2018, 09:50:28 AM
If I TOUHOU'd Lunatic Princess, and I make an Impossible Request, old or New, what happens?

Is it fine if I just have the treasure with me in the cockpit?

Does my ship manifest a Mecha-scale version of my Treasure?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on December 30, 2018, 01:58:34 PM
FYI, the Tactical Leader list got messed up as well, since you are presumably going to fix what got altered by this change

Nanshork said he'll work on fixing the forum code itself when he has the time and hopefully that will get the posts to show properly again. Otherwise I'll need to basically go all over my homebrew and try to clean it manually and let's just say I'm not looking forward to that because that would be a lot of stuff to look over and edit.

It's definitely not just affecting you but it does seem to be related to what is probably your non-US keyboard setup.

I think it is a database issue, I'll work on it today.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 01, 2019, 09:15:50 AM
Happy 2019!

If I TOUHOU'd Lunatic Princess, and I make an Impossible Request, old or New, what happens?

Is it fine if I just have the treasure with me in the cockpit?

Does my ship manifest a Mecha-scale version of my Treasure?

Yes and yes.

Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on January 01, 2019, 09:22:36 AM
Presumably, a figurehead is added in the case of the Impossible Request being made by a battleship, but what happens if it's a mecha in an alternate form? Or a module?

Actually, how do Forbidden Signs manifest on, say, tanks or planes? I mean, super robots can be built to always be in tank/plane mode.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 03, 2019, 05:44:24 AM
Check out the Grungust tank and plane forms from the super upgrades:

(https://i.imgsafe.org/e2/e2538a5f88.jpeg)(https://i.imgsafe.org/e2/e25398f57f.jpeg)

As you can see the head is still there in plane and tank forms and would take any head-related forbidden signs.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on January 03, 2019, 08:59:22 AM
Great!

Now what happens if I take on one that affects, say, my limbs.

I mean, if I decide that U N Owen Is Me (I AM AWARE IT IS NOT CALLED THAT) , "two of my limbs partially transform into floating crystals of multiple colors that otherwise work normally."

Although I guess I possibly should have specified that that I was questioning what the limbs of a vehicle were.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 05, 2019, 03:06:42 AM
U.N. Owen was Diabolic Wave! (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18582.0)

A plane has wings which would count as limbs.

As for a tank I could see the treads counting as limbs, although again the grungust still has its arms visible in tank form, they're just not doing anything.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 06, 2019, 06:56:09 PM
Os, your problems should all be fixed now.  Out of curiosity, do you have a non English based keyboard?


I have no idea where I left off on reviewing due to the eaten posts but I'm ready to pick things back up.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 06, 2019, 07:16:59 PM
Os, your problems should all be fixed now.  Out of curiosity, do you have a non English based keyboard?

Yes.

I have no idea where I left off on reviewing due to the eaten posts but I'm ready to pick things back up.

More good news! Seems like you had just finished checking out the Monado classes but skipped the Magic Knight (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18693.0) by alphabetical order.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 06, 2019, 07:57:35 PM
I'll try to get to that asap.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on January 09, 2019, 11:10:41 PM
And what I meant about the Favored Feat is it seems you have to already have the feat in order to make it a favored feat. Meaning you either have to make all your Real Pilot choices feats which can be taken multiple times or you have to fill up normal feats slots....

Does the Aura Manakete's ability count as one that can be affected by Favored Feat?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 10, 2019, 01:54:25 AM
And what I meant about the Favored Feat is it seems you have to already have the feat in order to make it a favored feat. Meaning you either have to make all your Real Pilot choices feats which can be taken multiple times or you have to fill up normal feats slots....

Changed it so you can choose a multi-pick feat to be gained as a simple bonus feat.

Was considering specific benefits to other [pilot] feats, but maybe that would work better as a  feat that improves other feats scaling off Real Pilot levels, what do you think?

Does the Aura Manakete's ability count as one that can be affected by Favored Feat?

Aura Arcana has the [Pilot] tag so yes.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on January 10, 2019, 10:05:55 PM
Specific benefits sounds good. I'm thinking the feat sounds better, bit maybe it's more appropriate as a class feature because there's already a specific Real Feat... I dunno.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 11, 2019, 08:27:18 PM
Yeah, plus making it a separate feat helps keep the base class more simple.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on January 12, 2019, 03:26:16 AM
Where would the treasures from a Lunatic Princess's Impossible Requests manifest on a plane, tank or battleship?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on January 14, 2019, 10:09:28 AM
Do accessories work on mechs in vehicle form?
Does movement from Area Melee weapons cost energy.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2019, 02:42:07 AM
Where would the treasures from a Lunatic Princess's Impossible Requests manifest on a plane, tank or battleship?

Floating around.

Do accessories work on mechs in vehicle form?
Does movement from Area Melee weapons cost energy.

Yes and yes if relevant (basic ground movement doesn't cost energy for example).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on January 15, 2019, 06:10:51 AM
Question!

Born to Fight overcharging accessories function:

You can overcharge an accessory as a free action even when it is not your turn.
What if you overcharge an accessory and then get your mecha with that accessory blown up before the overcharge effect expires? Does the effect end early or does the effect persist still for the full 1 round?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2019, 09:44:00 PM
If the effect applies to the mecha specifically, ends early, otherwise would last 1 round.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on January 16, 2019, 02:24:21 AM
But how do you know if it applies to the mecha or not?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 16, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
If it mentions 'mecha' or not. So basically Booster, Nacht System, Mega Booster, Enancher and TROMBE!.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on January 18, 2019, 03:44:17 PM
So with overcharging the Mark of the Hero with born to fight, does reroll all nat 1s only apply to d20s or literally all 1s on any dice?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 19, 2019, 06:43:17 AM
Ups, that was meant to be only d20s otherwise it can literally crash the game with 1d2 weapons infinite loops, fixed. Also would be kinda too much time re-rolling with multi-dice weapons. Thanks!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on January 20, 2019, 08:11:13 AM
I just realised:

What happens if I've ended driving my Landship into the fucking ocean? Can I "fly" underwater like how Space Battleships do, or am I just sinking until I hit the bottom, then just driving out (since I still have the aquatic property, I assume)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 20, 2019, 09:54:20 PM
Good point, added that it can move across the bottom and then can "drive out" at half land speed while taking a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 21, 2019, 01:57:16 PM
Magic Knight

So this is basically a gish class.

Pure Pillar doesn't seem to do anything if the Magic Knight didn't pick an alignment descriptor.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 21, 2019, 07:36:58 PM
Magic Knight

So this is basically a gish class.
Working as intended then. :D

Pure Pillar doesn't seem to do anything if the Magic Knight didn't pick an alignment descriptor.

With non-alignemtn descriptors, Pure Pillar allows to replace elemental/physical damage with sacred damage, which is a lot harder to resist (actually can't think of anything that resists sacred damage right now). Although noticed there was no benefit for [Healing] descriptor so added a clause for that.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 21, 2019, 07:56:22 PM
I read "and works" as "that works" which is why I thought it was useless.  The adjusted ability looks just fine.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on January 21, 2019, 09:59:56 PM
Great! So can I assume the rest of the Magic Knight "looks just fine" too? :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 21, 2019, 10:03:02 PM
I'm not sure about the balance on it but mechanically it's fine!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on January 31, 2019, 02:06:35 PM
I just realised

Can mechas (and, more importantly, battleships) make unarmed attacks?

Also, if I am a Moon Vanguard and I take an option that gives me a subpilot, can they actually do anything or was I just an idiot for taking that thing

And if I've Disabled All Safeties, but I've figured out how to compress the important bits of my ship into a single Hit Box (Touhou Feat), does a one on a save damage me, even though I rerolled?

Additionally, if I TOUHOU'd the Septette For The Dead, and I decide to call upon my Servant Flyer, how does that work? Is my Servant Flyer abnormally large, do they have their own, smaller mecha, do they just do things on mecha scale-or not, as the case may be?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on January 31, 2019, 10:55:19 PM
Os keeps poking me in PMs so I guess I should review something else.   :p

Ugh, now we're in eaten post territory.  I know that I did Mecha Marine through Peace Princess but my reviews are gone so I have to do them again...


Mecha Marine
Looks fine.

Mecha Mook
I actually like that Mecha Mooks have expanded options in what they're piloting.  It opens up options from a DM perspective for things like being attacked by a fleet.

Module Pilot
So no maneuvers/stances and no fine manipulation but lots of upgrades.  I haven't gotten into those yet so I'll have to let someone else judge that balance for now but the rest of it looks fine.

Peace Princess
Okay, I had a lot of comments here, let's see if I can remember them.

I think you confirmed that the Genetics options don't have to be taken in sequence?

Does Protesting Princess affect allies as well as enemies?  As written it is a yes, I'm just making sure that is intended.

I know I had way more to say, I'm going to pretend that you responded to/ fixed whatever else there was.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 02, 2019, 05:10:46 PM
I just realised

Can mechas (and, more importantly, battleships) make unarmed attacks?
Yes.

Also, if I am a Moon Vanguard and I take an option that gives me a subpilot, can they actually do anything or was I just an idiot for taking that thing
They can use the subpilot options as normal.

And if I've Disabled All Safeties, but I've figured out how to compress the important bits of my ship into a single Hit Box (Touhou Feat), does a one on a save damage me, even though I rerolled?
No unless you re-roll into another 1.

Additionally, if I TOUHOU'd the Septette For The Dead, and I decide to call upon my Servant Flyer, how does that work? Is my Servant Flyer abnormally large, do they have their own, smaller mecha, do they just do things on mecha scale-or not, as the case may be?
Abnormally large blood familiar.

Os keeps poking me in PMs so I guess I should review something else.   :p

Ugh, now we're in eaten post territory.  I know that I did Mecha Marine through Peace Princess but my reviews are gone so I have to do them again...


Mecha Marine
Looks fine.
Nice, I half-remembered your deleted comments and did my best to update the classes according to them and seems like it worked.

Mecha Mook
I actually like that Mecha Mooks have expanded options in what they're piloting.  It opens up options from a DM perspective for things like being attacked by a fleet.
As intended then. :D

Module Pilot
So no maneuvers/stances and no fine manipulation but lots of upgrades.  I haven't gotten into those yet so I'll have to let someone else judge that balance for now but the rest of it looks fine.
I look forward to when we get to the pilot schools.

Peace Princess
Okay, I had a lot of comments here, let's see if I can remember them.

I think you confirmed that the Genetics options don't have to be taken in sequence?
Yes.

Does Protesting Princess affect allies as well as enemies?  As written it is a yes, I'm just making sure that is intended.
Also yes, the princess protests to both enemies and allies.

I know I had way more to say, I'm going to pretend that you responded to/ fixed whatever else there was.
Well it was, then it got deleted and I edited in again to the best of my memory. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on February 02, 2019, 05:19:15 PM
Additionally, if I TOUHOU'd the Septette For The Dead, and I decide to call upon my Servant Flyer, how does that work? Is my Servant Flyer abnormally large, do they have their own, smaller mecha, do they just do things on mecha scale-or not, as the case may be?
Abnormally large blood familiar.

Wait, hold on, the familiar from Servant Flyer is made of blood?
...
FORBIDDEN BATTLE GRIMOIRE LORE

-spooky ooooOOOOOoooo noises-

Also, a thought occurs-if I'm a Dream Battler, do mechs count as non-humanoids, or do they have to be piloted by a non-humanoid to count?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 05, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Need to be piloted by non-humanoids. More reasons to get those squishy meatbags inside the giant robots!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on February 09, 2019, 10:08:09 AM
I realise it isn't really exactly your homebrew I'm asking about here but...

If I have a cyber circuit, and I'm an energy warrior with a module in my Energy Emmiter Circuit, can my Super Robot create energy weapons or not?

If not, is there any way to make it so that my super can make energy weapons?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on February 09, 2019, 10:14:53 AM
If you're not sure what homebrew Sweetiebot is referring to I can explain it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on February 09, 2019, 10:18:43 AM
I can as well, sense I requested it lol.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 09, 2019, 10:39:01 AM
Assuming you're talking about the Metroid-inspired Power of Cybernetics from Garryl (which I had some players now and then request to use so got some experience), then yes.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on February 11, 2019, 09:50:39 AM
Also, question for either you or the guys who did the pathfinder conversion;

If I'm a barbarian with the Animal Fury rage power, which grants me an (extraordinary) bite attack, and I'm also a pilot, does the mech gain the bite attack when I rage, assuming mechs even gain the benifits of rage, and if so, what's happening, fluffwise?

Incidentally, is it possible to gain blood charges from mechas or would I have to drink beforehand to get the most useage from T.O.U.H.O.Uing Septette For The Dead?

Similarly, can spells be cast if I'm using a Love-Coloured Magic maneuver?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 16, 2019, 02:11:35 AM
Also, question for either you or the guys who did the pathfinder conversion;

If I'm a barbarian with the Animal Fury rage power, which grants me an (extraordinary) bite attack, and I'm also a pilot, does the mech gain the bite attack when I rage, assuming mechs even gain the benifits of rage, and if so, what's happening, fluffwise?
Yes, your sheer rage makes the mecha's head split open and reveal teeth like it's Evangelion.

Incidentally, is it possible to gain blood charges from mechas or would I have to drink beforehand to get the most useage from T.O.U.H.O.Uing Septette For The Dead?
Yes you can customize your mecha with needles and tubes to drain blood, although you'll need to be hitting something with an actual Con score to gain charges so better fill up beforehand depending on the campaign.

Similarly, can spells be cast if I'm using a Love-Coloured Magic maneuver?
No unless you have an Arcane Robot or similar.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on February 16, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
If I'm a Peace Princess with only two royal guards, can they take the "Combining Team" feat?

If not, then lets say I took that option enough times that I have six guards now. Could five of them take the feat, and if not, would it be due to the sixt guy needing to also have taken the feat?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 18, 2019, 03:28:56 AM
Yes, even a pair of royal guards could take combining robot.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on February 20, 2019, 08:51:35 AM
If I Touhou'd Misteryous Millenium (I go with that spelling because it seems more fun to me), could I take ammo from my BOW and use it for a Misteryous Murder?

2: Is Hurricane Protocol level V, like Hurricane Born, or level  IV, which is where it is now?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 25, 2019, 06:54:32 AM
If I Touhou'd Misteryous Millenium (I go with that spelling because it seems more fun to me), could I take ammo from my BOW and use it for a Misteryous Murder?
Sure. :D

2: Is Hurricane Protocol level V, like Hurricane Born, or level  IV, which is where it is now?
Ups, supposed to be V, fixed now. :blush
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on February 25, 2019, 11:07:15 PM
Life has been busy lately.

Prodigy Pilot
Looks fine.


Psycho Pilot
Looks fine.


Steel Soldier
Needs Sense Motive.

20th Level BAB chart has an extra +5 at the end.

This is a weird class.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 26, 2019, 12:23:06 AM
Life has been busy lately.
Yeah last week was also pretty filled for me. :)

Prodigy Pilot
Looks fine.


Psycho Pilot
Looks fine.
Great!

Steel Soldier
Needs Sense Motive.

20th Level BAB chart has an extra +5 at the end.

Fixed.

This is a weird class.
Hahaha I suppose so. Basic idea was kinda mixing an assassin with a super pilot then health drink as an homage to Kusuha's original character.

Although I now wonder if I could make the Health Drink a separate ACF or feat then put something a bit less weird as the base signature ability (or just give a base option to pick at first).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on February 26, 2019, 12:49:17 AM
I think that making the health drink an option one way or another would be a good idea and make the class feel less weird.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 27, 2019, 01:07:31 AM
Ok, added Steel Skill that allows to pick between Metallic Morte and Health Drink. How does it look now?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on February 27, 2019, 09:21:38 AM
It looks good. The choice is lesser healing with no penalties or more healing with possible penalties.

Expect it to be used for infinite healing out of combat.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on February 27, 2019, 09:30:33 PM
That's ok, you probably didn't check them yet but with spirits all pilot classes but the mecha mook can do infinite healing out of combat if they pick the right spirits, ship captain has a feat to heal mechas stored inside it, Support Staff has options for that too, so it's basically built-in around here that mechas can be fully patched between battles like a crusader with the right stance can heal the whole party by hitting random rocks. Also because the source games also kinda have infinite healing, heck sidekick units often get the ability to repair allies even if they never did so in the show.

Although sometime wonder about making alternate rules limiting healing for a "grittier" campaign. In the other hand even the original Gundam could be patched pretty nicely between battles despite being behind enemy lines half the time and countless Zakus were kept in pristine condition after decades of guerilla action.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on February 27, 2019, 10:31:23 PM
Makes sense,and I have no issues with infinite out of combat healing yet. I haven't looked at anything except for the classes and their robot lists so far.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 01, 2019, 05:00:59 AM
Then you just need to look at everything else. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 01, 2019, 09:07:05 AM
I'm not done with classes yet.  :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 02, 2019, 07:48:03 PM
In Arsenal, BOW says it doubles the base damage die.  Does that mean that 1d6 becomes 1d12 or 2d6?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 02, 2019, 11:42:44 PM
2d6.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 03, 2019, 09:44:24 PM
Is Dynamic the only way for a super-robot to get a built in ranged weapon?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 03, 2019, 10:52:04 PM
There's also Transform or multiclassing with Real Pilot for base real robot with a ranged in-built weapon, and the Elven racial ACF.

Some other ideas that could be implemented:
-Allow for the extra weapon upgrade to be a ranged weapon instead of melee with 1d8 base damage.
-Allow for one of the two starting weapons to be ranged instead of melee with 1d8 base damage.
-Allow Paradox Prototype to work even if you're a pure super, granting you a basic tier I real robot as basis.
-Two or more of the above.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 03, 2019, 11:11:16 PM
I think at a minimum Extra Weapon should be able to grant a ranged weapon.  Option two I could see going either way.

Option 3 feels like people should multiclass if they want a Real Robot.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 03, 2019, 11:21:36 PM
If a Monado Maiden gains a fly speed from something that isn't a mecha choice (such as a race or a feature of another class since these are usually gestalted) do the flying penalties still apply?  I assume the answer is no since the restrictions are about flying mecha but since it is a mecha I figured I'd make sure.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 04, 2019, 12:03:39 AM
I think at a minimum Extra Weapon should be able to grant a ranged weapon.  Option two I could see going either way.

Option 3 feels like people should multiclass if they want a Real Robot.

Ok, updated the super's starting weapons and Extra upgrade with ranged option.

If a Monado Maiden gains a fly speed from something that isn't a mecha choice (such as a race or a feature of another class since these are usually gestalted) do the flying penalties still apply?  I assume the answer is no since the restrictions are about flying mecha but since it is a mecha I figured I'd make sure.
Correct, no.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Sweetiebot on March 04, 2019, 03:21:36 AM
By the way, are Super Robots supposed to have any way to gain more hardpoints, or is a pure super stuck with just the one accessory?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on March 04, 2019, 08:05:57 AM
Hardpoints are supposed to be more of a Real Robot thing, top tier technology packages while Supers have more exclusive upgrades.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 04, 2019, 09:22:29 AM
As YuweaCurtis said.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on March 05, 2019, 06:57:53 AM
Doea the penalty of Zero Arts apply to a weapons effects even if you use it for a manuever?

I'm assuming Zero Stance still only allows the use of one tactic feat at a time, is that right?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 05, 2019, 07:27:21 PM
How does an Android's Integrated Weaponry interact with Monado Maiden since you're not piloting a mecha?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 06, 2019, 04:37:09 AM
Doea the penalty of Zero Arts apply to a weapons effects even if you use it for a manuever?

I'm assuming Zero Stance still only allows the use of one tactic feat at a time, is that right?
-No, anything used with the maneuver would benefit and not suffer the penalty.
-Correct, it's either, not both at the same time.

How does an Android's Integrated Weaponry interact with Monado Maiden since you're not piloting a mecha?
You would be able to use it normally.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 08, 2019, 10:30:27 PM
For Arsenal weapons, is Area(Burst) the same as Area(Explosive)?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 08, 2019, 11:38:13 PM
That was a typo, Area (burst) was meant to be Area (explosive), fixed.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 25, 2019, 12:35:30 AM
Time to finally finish looking at the classes (and review other stuff too)!

Support Staff
Can Module Change have one/both of the target mechas be enemies?

Mechanization is a nice mad scientist ability.  Does taking it multiple times let you add multiple abilities to the targets attacks?  It looks like that should be a yes but the language is odd.

Super Weapons are crazy (and also you have some unfinished ones).

I'm wondering if Mega Minion needs any restrictive language on Max HD, but then again you need to spend 3 specializations to get a 2 HD minion and the feat for more specializations can't be taken at 1st level.  Also, the machine minions should get the updates from Machine Mistress.

Drug Cocktail as written allows you to choose two drug options even if you don't know them.  Is this intentional?

I'm way too into seeing this class as a villain, that was unexpected.

Techno Thief
Looks good.


Skills
Look good.


Feats
Turbo Operational Universal High Overcharge Utility giving a battleship arms amuses me.

Entropy Elemental is crazy.

So many feats, I think everything else is okay.

Traits
Fine.

Races
Okay.

Spirits
Does Taunt continue doubling if used for more than 2 rounds?




That should be everything important except for the schools and prestige classes.


As a side note, it might make sense to let your SRW players rebuild their characters when in a situation where that would make sense to allow since there have been added classes and some significant changes (also since you've lost some players maybe the optimization could be toned back down :p).
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 25, 2019, 04:36:32 AM
Time to finally finish looking at the classes (and review other stuff too)!
Yay!

Support Staff
Can Module Change have one/both of the target mechas be enemies?
Ups, not supposed to, added "willing allied" to that.


Mechanization is a nice mad scientist ability.  Does taking it multiple times let you add multiple abilities to the targets attacks?  It looks like that should be a yes but the language is odd.
Yes to multiple, clarified.

Super Weapons are crazy (and also you have some unfinished ones).
"Crazy" in which sense? Crazy awesome? Crazy borked? Crazy "not sure what to think about this"? :p

(also yes gotta finish them someday)

I'm wondering if Mega Minion needs any restrictive language on Max HD, but then again you need to spend 3 specializations to get a 2 HD minion and the feat for more specializations can't be taken at 1st level.  Also, the machine minions should get the updates from Machine Mistress.
Added HD cap equal to your own as well as the new upgrades.

Drug Cocktail as written allows you to choose two drug options even if you don't know them.  Is this intentional?
No, added clause that you must already know them both.

I'm way too into seeing this class as a villain, that was unexpected.
Excellent, seems like that front pic worked wonders in lulling you in a false sense of security. :smirk

although yes the support staff kinda started as hearty mechanic dude but then ended up with way more crazy evil scientist stuff

Techno Thief
Looks good.


Skills
Look good.
Good. :D

Feats
Turbo Operational Universal High Overcharge Utility giving a battleship arms amuses me.

Entropy Elemental is crazy.
Again, which kind of "crazy" exactly? :P

So many feats, I think everything else is okay.

Traits
Fine.

Races
Okay.
Also good.

Spirits
Does Taunt continue doubling if used for more than 2 rounds?
Yes.

That should be everything important except for the schools and prestige classes.
We're almost there! :sobbing

As a side note, it might make sense to let your SRW players rebuild their characters when in a situation where that would make sense to allow since there have been added classes and some significant changes (also since you've lost some players maybe the optimization could be toned back down :p).
Fair advice, but I recall everybody in the high-end campaign already overhauling their characters twice at least. -_-'
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 25, 2019, 06:05:21 AM
All I ever did was change my mecha because the Supers had changed that much. Also try and fail to fix formatting. :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 25, 2019, 10:32:06 AM
On Super Weapons, they are crazy "not sure what to think about this".

On Entropy Elemental, I think the language needs to be defined better. One of the options removes people from existence if they take sustenance from magic (IIRC). If I eat magic food does that count?

You can tell everyone it's my fault, I should have finished all of this forever ago.  :lol


I'm also somewhat tempted to try and join the high end campaign since you've lost players but I have no idea what I'd do.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 25, 2019, 11:53:22 PM
On Super Weapons, they are crazy "not sure what to think about this".
Feel free to come to them later then after you had more time to think about them. Basic idea is that every a good chunk of mecha shows eventually have some kind of super weapon (or even multiple ones).

Something else I've been toying in with my mind is some feat/ability for more "classic" nukes, aka plain nuclear bombs. Basic idea is that they're somewhat more spammable but have a bunch of drawbacks (like making most people like you less) and mechas would be highly resistant to them so the nuke is only good for clearing low level/smaller stuff/terrain or used at point-blank range.

On Entropy Elemental, I think the language needs to be defined better. One of the options removes people from existence if they take sustenance from magic (IIRC). If I eat magic food does that count?
Yes.

If Erasure is too much, I can also replace with something less nasty like custom penalties that only go away once you've compensated all the magic sustenance you took with mundane stuff.

You can tell everyone it's my fault, I should have finished all of this forever ago.  :lol
Still better late than never. :P

I'm also somewhat tempted to try and join the high end campaign since you've lost players but I have no idea what I'd do.
You would be more than welcome.

The current party is basically two highly mobile damage dealers (Ketaro and Raineh Daze), arcane caster (Kuromaiken) and an arcane gish (YuweaCurtis), so some sort of divine caster or battleship captain would probably be best for helping round things up.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 26, 2019, 01:02:06 AM
Most of Entropy Elemental feels like too much to be honest (especially at first level).  I don't see any reason not to take the feat at least once if you know you'll be okay meeting the pre-reqs.

Hmm, I did like ship captain.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2019, 01:04:26 AM
We had a ship captain once.

They disappeared after about two posts.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 26, 2019, 01:13:57 AM
Yuwea has a ship captain cohort according to the character sheet thread
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on March 26, 2019, 01:29:11 AM
We had a ship captain once.

They disappeared after about two posts.

They lasted longer than their ship did tho. Twice as long!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2019, 09:04:24 AM
Yuwea has a ship captain cohort according to the character sheet thread

Correct, but they've just been used for ferrying people around and hasn't actually seen any combat action. Yuwea has another cohort for that.

We had a ship captain once.

They disappeared after about two posts.

They lasted longer than their ship did tho. Twice as long!

I'll take it as a good sign you still remember the campaign's beginnings. :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 26, 2019, 12:59:36 PM
I need to keep up this momentum.

Atreim Pilot
Looks like a good dual-progression PrC.

Conscience Android
Are the benefits of Empty Machine always active? Also, this is a powerful ability.

What is a synchro attack?

Machinery Warrior
Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.

I think that the rest is okay.

Soul Soldier
I think that the comments of "powerful but silly" sum it up pretty well.


I just remembered that while I looked at Arsenal I didn't do any reviewing. Just like with the real robots back when I started this, I'm not mathy enough to do an in-depth analysis of arsenal weapons.

I don't see the Rev tag explained anywhere.

Interference Driver(II) doesn't have any accessory tier restrictions like similar options, is this intentional?



Also, is Star Sniper done? It isn't in the index
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 26, 2019, 10:12:56 PM
I need to keep up this momentum.
Great!

Which reminds me forgot to reply about this
Most of Entropy Elemental feels like too much to be honest (especially at first level).  I don't see any reason not to take the feat at least once if you know you'll be okay meeting the pre-reqs.
Null soul’s SR reduced from 15+PL to 11+PL, Shatter Soul’s first effect now only halves ability scores instead of erasure and offers chance to have a limited lifespan instead, undead/construct rampage only lasts 1d12 days, End of Magic halves ability scores until they make up for all the magic sustenance they took threefold plus makes them unable to benefit from magic sustenance ever again.

Now my reasoning for why they aren't auto-takes:
-Null Soul also blocks beneficial spells from other besides making you unable to use any of your own, I would say that's a pretty big risk on itself.
-Dimensional Decay really situational.
-Shatter Soul is probably useful more times than Dimensional Decay, but still lots of enemies aren't carrying around magic buffs. Enemy undead/constructs going in a rampage won't exactly help you defeat them while other immortal stuff can just choose the limited lifespan, you were going to destroy them either way. :p
-Rune Breaker can screw the rest of the party unless everybody plans for it and then basically everybody gives up on using magic items.
-End of Magic also kinda situational, this is that monster probably survived in a healthy diet of 100% organic humanoid meat and that's why you want to take them out anyway.

Atreim Pilot
Looks like a good dual-progression PrC.
Yay!

Conscience Android
Are the benefits of Empty Machine always active? Also, this is a powerful ability.
Yes always active. Too powerful?

What is a synchro attack?
Combo attacks with relationship feats (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7160.msg123302#msg123302).

Machinery Warrior
Needs Sense Motive as a class skill.
Done, threw in Ride and Swim too.

I think that the rest is okay.
Yay!

Soul Soldier
I think that the comments of "powerful but silly" sum it up pretty well.
Excellent.

I just remembered that while I looked at Arsenal I didn't do any reviewing. Just like with the real robots back when I started this, I'm not mathy enough to do an in-depth analysis of arsenal weapons.
Well Fzzr and Ckirk already pointed out the most problematic ones some time ago and I haven't done any significant updates to them since then, so it shouldn't be an urgent matter. Once everything else is taken care off I'll fine-check them again.

I don't see the Rev tag explained anywhere.
It's in mecha special properties.  -_-'

Interference Driver(II) doesn't have any accessory tier restrictions like similar options, is this intentional?
Ups, no, fixed. :blush

Also, is Star Sniper done? It isn't in the index
Could've sworn had already done so, seems like I either forgot to save the edit or was undone by that forum misbehaving some time ago. Added.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on March 26, 2019, 10:55:19 PM
On entropy elemental: the feat now can't wreck everything at first level.  I think it looks a lot better with the changes.

I don't know if Empty Machine is too strong.  Arsenal doesn't get counted which is where a lot of bonuses come from.  The android still becomes something of a defensive powerhouse but it's not significantly worse than a Monado Maiden fighting non-mecha so it isn't as bad as my first reaction made it out to be.

Star Sniper looks good too.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 26, 2019, 10:56:04 PM
We had a ship captain once.

They disappeared after about two posts.

They lasted longer than their ship did tho. Twice as long!

I'll take it as a good sign you still remember the campaign's beginnings. :P


I'm only confused about what was going on after we split. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on March 27, 2019, 04:14:52 AM
You should remove the Special part for Entropy Elemental. In any game where its an allowed choice, there's almost never a reason I could think of to not pick it unless you were specifically avoiding it because of how crazy it is. Considering how much you don't need magic buffs or items to make a crazy overpowered character using your SRW system, not having access to any of those things is not very much different from simply not having any drawbacks to this feat at all.

And to loop back around to my first sentence, being able to just temporarily sack Spirit Points to gain the feat whenever you want temporarily is way too much. Half the options are already easy Cohort fodder picks, and the other half have zero drawbacks in an SRW game where the PCs do not need magic where things like Child Soldier, Psionics, homebrew Martial Schools, and Pure Metal exists. In fact choosing to use magical equipment in such a scenario is almost a drawback in of itself whenever Pure Metal is accessible.

Lastly, being able to make constructs & undead go berserk permanently with a touch is a fantastic pick for a villain type. Does that ability work on sentient mechas? (Hello Evangelions)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 27, 2019, 04:49:20 AM
You should remove the Special part for Entropy Elemental. In any game where its an allowed choice, there's almost never a reason I could think of to not pick it unless you were specifically avoiding it because of how crazy it is. Considering how much you don't need magic buffs or items to make a crazy overpowered character using your SRW system, not having access to any of those things is not very much different from simply not having any drawbacks to this feat at all.

And to loop back around to my first sentence, being able to just temporarily sack Spirit Points to gain the feat whenever you want temporarily is way too much. Half the options are already easy Cohort fodder picks, and the other half have zero drawbacks in an SRW game where the PCs do not need magic where things like Child Soldier, Psionics, homebrew Martial Schools, and Pure Metal exists. In fact choosing to use magical equipment in such a scenario is almost a drawback in of itself whenever Pure Metal is accessible.
Some clarifications:
-First, Entropy elemental has a spoilered note at start saying that "When one of the following effects refers to “spell” or “magic”, it refers to all  spells/psionics/SLAs/PLAs/invocations/salient divine abilities/divine characteristics/similar" so you can't just use D&D alternate magic system psionics to cover up.
-Pure crafting can still be combined with magic items as long as they're not spell trigger/activation stuff like scrolls and wands.
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.
-You can make crazy overpowered characters out of pure magic. Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

Lastly, being able to make constructs & undead go berserk permanently with a touch is a fantastic pick for a villain type. Does that ability work on sentient mechas? (Hello Evangelions)
Alas mechas are not actual creatures (no HD for one) although some ability to make them go out of control sounds something interesting to do, I'll cook something up.

(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on March 27, 2019, 05:25:19 AM
It just feels like a bad PC option.

Also you didn't address that you are not required to spend a feat slot on picking Entropy Elemental but can instead just sacrifice a little bit of Spirit Points to gain it whenever. And there's enough options to gain more Spirit Points to make up for the loss.

Quote
-Pure crafting can still be combined with magic items as long as they're not spell trigger/activation stuff like scrolls and wands.

That, uh, that only makes my point stronger. And the feat. And Pure Metal. -_-'

Quote
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.

Costs 21 SP instead of a feat slot, for one. Having this feat makes you no more vulnerable to non-magic foes than not having the feat considering everything else available in just your own content. No-magic item builds are super easy with most of your content (SRW, Monsters, TobHou, Pure Metal, ect ect ect).

Quote
Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?

Both my previous post and this one, I feel, kinda are making that point actually. I've been advocating non-magic characters in both of these posts. After all, a non-magic character is exactly who'd be using this feat. But it's just too much. It's like giving some one 9th level spells or higher at 1st level. Maybe a slight exaggeration but my point is there. This feat is too much to be a feat. Shoot, make an actual Entropy Elemental monster for the SRW setting -_-' Maybe make a 'lighter' form of this feat based around being a survivor of an encounter with such a creature?

Quote
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

That sounds like a far better idea than making this a PC option. At the end of the day, Entropy Elemental just feels so much like a bad PC option to make available.

Quote
(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)

Temporary berserking can also have some interesting consequences though. Like, if they aren't killed before the end of it, many societal & political problems could arise such a situation.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 27, 2019, 06:19:33 AM
It just feels like a bad PC option.

Also you didn't address that you are not required to spend a feat slot on picking Entropy Elemental but can instead just sacrifice a little bit of Spirit Points to gain it whenever. And there's enough options to gain more Spirit Points to make up for the loss.
My point was supposed to be that Entropy Elemental needs to be something readily available, not somehing you can only pick at level up.

Also considering that out of 29 classes/prcs all but two gain 8 or less spirit points per level (Magitech Knight gains 10 and Soul Soldier gains 12 but is only 5 levels long), 21 spirit points is hardly a cheap price, meaning at least 3 levels of anything besides Soul Soldier. But if you still consider it too cheap, I may raise it to 30 or 40.

Quote
-Feats are a limited resource, even more than levels usually. When writing NPCs I often run out of feat slots pretty fast long before I even consider just handing out Entropy Elemental. And anybody specializing in Entropy Elemental with their base feats would just leave themselves too vulnerable to non-magic characters specializing in anything else.

Costs 21 SP instead of a feat slot, for one. Having this feat makes you no more vulnerable to non-magic foes than not having the feat considering everything else available in just your own content. No-magic item builds are super easy with most of your content (SRW, Monsters, TobHou, Pure Metal, ect ect ect).
Again, 21 SP is at least 3 levels worth of SP for anybody besides the Soul Soldier. And picking it base means a non-magic foe picked something else more widely useful like Attacker or Counter that will give them the edge if you fight.

And even beyond that it's not all sun and sunshine for an Entropy Elemental as you're making it to be. Like if the party spellcaster is sharing uber buffs. If you have perma Null Soul, you can't benefit from them. So a party of full entropy elemental would struggle heavily against a non-magic non-entropy party with even a single spellcaster to further buff them up. Yes End of Magic can dispel stuff, but that's assuming their magically buffed initiative doesn't allow them to go first and insta-smash you with all their magic buffs before you ever get a chance of using Entropy Elemental.

Quote
Is it that much to ask for a non-magic character to be a viable option?

Both my previous post and this one, I feel, kinda are making that point actually. I've been advocating non-magic characters in both of these posts. After all, a non-magic character is exactly who'd be using this feat. But it's just too much. It's like giving some one 9th level spells or higher at 1st level. Maybe a slight exaggeration but my point is there.
Is it in the same level of Wish? Shapechange? Gate? :psyduck

Because actual 9th level spells would allow a 1st level character to dominate pretty much everything (gate/shapechange into a solar or a titan then gate infinite titans), whereas a 1st level character with entropy elemental still dies just fine when somebody stabs them with a rusty dagger.

 Heck, a wizard with a bit more levels could do it just fine even if all their magic is shut down because they'll still have more HP and Bab to win a direct fight.

But if you have commoner 1 with shapechange/gate against non-homebrew no-magic-items epic fighter 200000000, the commoner 1 wins because infinite titans 100% of the time.

This feat is too much to be a feat. Shoot, make an actual Entropy Elemental monster for the SRW setting -_-' Maybe make a 'lighter' form of this feat based around being a survivor of an encounter with such a creature?
Yes I could make an actual monster (and maybe I still will), but then as they say as soon as I give it stats, a wizard can kill it, probably a level 1. However you can't kill a feat. Entropy is everywhere.

Quote
-Also Entropy Elemental is necessary settingwise to explain why don't people just magic up all their problems and immortal wizards don't rule everything from their pocket planes with only other immortal wizards being able to challenge them. Remember this isn't just a mecha rules supplement, is a setting on itself, and one where tech needs to be a competitive alternative to magic, and since magic is already well beyond infinite in so many ways then that means dragging magic down. My original idea was actually making it some sort of space monster going around destroying everything magic but ended up doing it as a feat so PCs could use it too.

That sounds like a far better idea than making this a PC option. At the end of the day, Entropy Elemental just feels so much like a bad PC option to make available.

Well it's also good for villains, otherwise Entropy Elemental Elder (name pending for monster version) is the only credible non-magical threat, and that just won't do. Mechas are supposed to be the stars here, not fancy trophies for spellcasters.

Quote
(also current version was changed to just berserk for 1d12 days but I can go change it back to permanent if you feel it's a better idea after all)

Temporary berserking can also have some interesting consequences though. Like, if they aren't killed before the end of it, many societal & political problems could arise such a situation.
Indeed. :smirk
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: ketaro on March 27, 2019, 06:28:30 AM
Quote
otherwise Entropy Elemental Elder (name pending for monster version)

Fearfully referred to as the "Eee" because thats the sound people make when they see one :P
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on March 27, 2019, 08:48:07 AM
Well here's a WIP (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18904.msg341099#msg341099) version.

So you agree the feat is fine and there's no need to increase the SP cost, right?

Although something else that crossed my mind as custom drawback would be a random chance that using the special acquisition of the feat have a 1% chance of turning you into an Entropy Elemental Elder with self-control for some time before becoming an NPC.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 27, 2019, 10:10:19 AM
If at first level you tried to Gate in a Solar by somehow having access to Gate, the Solar would probably shishkebab you and leave. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: YuweaCurtis on March 27, 2019, 10:23:26 AM
Yuwea has a ship captain cohort according to the character sheet thread

She's mostly just a ship captain for transport. She's actually a Support Staff so my character vicariously be one through her.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 04, 2019, 01:08:11 AM
I am doing all of the maneuvers.  I am looking at every school.  If I don't mention something it's fine.

Beam Barrage - Body Beam says that you pick stuff when you enter the stance but then talks about changing options when you level up.  It is also wall-of-texty.  I would rewrite it as follows (assuming I've interpreted it correctly).  Emphasis mine to note changed language.  Also PL 19 says 16d10 damage, that's super wrong.


When you learn this stance you gain a number of Beam Ammo equal to your Int score (not mod, full Int score) that can only be used to fire Beams from this stance.  This stance allows you to fire Beams with either the Defensive, Area (your choice, changeable at level up) or Heavy Property (Property chosen when Beam is fired) plus the Power property from your mecha’s body with range 30 mu dealing 1d4/1d8/1d0 damage respectively, costing 1/2/3 Beam Ammo. Beam Ammo can only be recovered at any effect that would recharge normal ammo like a chance to change your arsenal, even if you change stances.
 - At PL 4 you can grant Rending to the Defensive one, double the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 2d10 by paying 2/4/6 Beam ammo per shot respectively.
 - At PL 7 you can grant Rending+Pinning to the Defensive One,  triple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 4d10 by paying 3/6/9 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 10 you can grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 8d10 by paying 4/8/12 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 13 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20 critical to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 5/10/15 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 16 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20x3 critical to the Defensive one, increase the Area’s range increment by x6 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 32d10 by paying 6/12/18 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 19 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+16-20x4 critical to the Defensive one,  increase the Area’s range increment by x10 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 7/14/21 Beam Ammo per shot.

Beam Barrage - Beta Beam should say how long ago you can only have attacked the target once.

Beam Barrage - Balance Beam, when does the target take the damage?  After the 1d12 rounds ends?


I like Gun Maniac!


Martial Machine has the tags in the maneuvers list, might be a good idea to add those to Gun Maniac too.

Martial Machine - Dark Scherzo, can Twin-Linked weapons target separate targets?


Am I done?  I think I'm done!  Sorry it took so long!

Edit: Ugh, I started last July.  I have no excuse, I've never taken this long to review a project.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 05, 2019, 01:06:31 AM
I am doing all of the maneuvers.  I am looking at every school.  If I don't mention something it's fine.

Beam Barrage - Body Beam says that you pick stuff when you enter the stance but then talks about changing options when you level up.  It is also wall-of-texty.  I would rewrite it as follows (assuming I've interpreted it correctly).  Emphasis mine to note changed language.  Also PL 19 says 16d10 damage, that's super wrong.

When you learn this stance you gain a number of Beam Ammo equal to your Int score (not mod, full Int score) that can only be used to fire Beams from this stance.  This stance allows you to fire Beams with either the Defensive, Area (your choice, changeable at level up) or Heavy Property (Property chosen when Beam is fired) plus the Power property from your mecha’s body with range 30 mu dealing 1d4/1d8/1d0 damage respectively, costing 1/2/3 Beam Ammo. Beam Ammo can only be recovered at any effect that would recharge normal ammo like a chance to change your arsenal, even if you change stances.
 - At PL 4 you can grant Rending to the Defensive one, double the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 2d10 by paying 2/4/6 Beam ammo per shot respectively.
 - At PL 7 you can grant Rending+Pinning to the Defensive One,  triple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 4d10 by paying 3/6/9 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 10 you can grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 8d10 by paying 4/8/12 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 13 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20 critical to the Defensive one, quadruple the Area’s range increment and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 5/10/15 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 16 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+18-20x3 critical to the Defensive one, increase the Area’s range increment by x6 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 32d10 by paying 6/12/18 Beam Ammo per shot.
 - At PL 19 you can  grant Rending+Pinning+Concussive+16-20x4 critical to the Defensive one,  increase the Area’s range increment by x10 and increase the Heavy’s damage to 16d10 by paying 7/14/21 Beam Ammo per shot.
Great cleaning, and yes you interpreted it quite correctly. Also the PL 19 heavy beam should be 64d10, fixed.

Beam Barrage - Beta Beam should say how long ago you can only have attacked the target once.
My original idea was no time limit and basically only worked against each target once, but looking again now maybe that's a bit too harsh so put a 24 hour limit.

Beam Barrage - Balance Beam, when does the target take the damage?  After the 1d12 rounds ends?
Right after the penalties apply, clarified (also the damage type).

I like Gun Maniac!
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg138/oslecamo/oslecamo012/Anime-phantasy-star-online-2-lisa-pso2-kawanakajima-1129319_zpspzkhd7b0.jpg~original)Yay!  :D

Martial Machine has the tags in the maneuvers list, might be a good idea to add those to Gun Maniac too.
Done.

That reminds me there's still material from PS to plunder for a few more of those trinity schools.

Martial Machine - Dark Scherzo, can Twin-Linked weapons target separate targets?
Yes.

Am I done?  I think I'm done!  Sorry it took so long!

Edit: Ugh, I started last July.  I have no excuse, I've never taken this long to review a project.
Still greatly appreciate it, thanks a lot! :clap

And now you're free to go take a look at Tobhou. :smirk

Also still that opening in the Phantasy Star campaign.  :whistle
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 05, 2019, 01:12:36 AM
At least let me rest for a couple of days before I look at Tobhou. So many martial schools...
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 05, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
A note looking at Monado Maiden: the increased energy cost for flight and inability to regenerate energy whilst flying seems particularly painful when everyone and their mother can hover indefinitely and like 90% of the enemies we've had in PS have been flight capable.

Super Robot base + difficulty touching any airborne enemy seems lethal.

And looking at them (and Cyber Newtype) gives me an interesting question about Funnels:

Quote
You must choose a type (offensive, ranged or defensive) when you pick this feat, and you add the highest level of spell/power you can cast/manifest to the damage dealt/reduced by your funnel

What about these alternate funnel qualifications that don't manifest or cast? Do they get any sort of bonus?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 05, 2019, 09:48:03 PM
A note looking at Monado Maiden: the increased energy cost for flight and inability to regenerate energy whilst flying seems particularly painful when everyone and their mother can hover indefinitely and like 90% of the enemies we've had in PS have been flight capable.

Super Robot base + difficulty touching any airborne enemy seems lethal.
Other monado classes don't get flying at all.

The reason for that is since besides a "free" +8 to AC and attacks and +16 to hide from being fine sized, the monado classes have the extra utility of being able to go anywhere and always having their "mecha" on while non-monado classes need to get outside their mecha eventually. Also monado classes have a much easier time using magic buffs and personal gear and whatnot.

So if you have an alternative idea for a suitable penalty for monado classes to make up for all the above utility, feel free to present it, but if I just remove flying limitations then monado maiden's a plain superior super pilot/robot.

Mind you there's plenty of anti-air options in SRW d20, from B.O.W. to maneuvers that allow you to close any distance instantly, so a monado class just needs to focus a bit more on those.

And looking at them (and Cyber Newtype) gives me an interesting question about Funnels:

Quote
You must choose a type (offensive, ranged or defensive) when you pick this feat, and you add the highest level of spell/power you can cast/manifest to the damage dealt/reduced by your funnel

What about these alternate funnel qualifications that don't manifest or cast? Do they get any sort of bonus?
They do now. :p
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 05, 2019, 10:59:29 PM
You did forget the downsides to fine size (even disregarding that you could be a Zentraedi and get none of these:p): damage down, and... no reach. Bonuses to hiding aren't exactly fight-relevant.

As for balance... I dunno, it just seems that as a detriment it scales faster than you improve? If you get faster it takes more energy, it negates reactor more as time goes on, it takes fewer maneuvers to eat through it... the combination of costlier + blocking energy regen seems a bit overkill.

I mean, let's say you're level 6 and have taken agility as repeatedly. That's a base speed of 60MU.

If you use flight and a 3rd-level maneuver, that's 75 energy. Which you can't regen until you land and more or less waste a turn. For one turn's worth of action. It feels steep?

(Also do seriously none of the classes have access to flight spells etc?)
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 05, 2019, 11:52:35 PM
You did forget the downsides to fine size (even disregarding that you could be a Zentraedi and get none of these:p): damage down, and... no reach. Bonuses to hiding aren't exactly fight-relevant.
Zentraedi would be replaced by Cyborg due to Iron Heart. Plenty of maneuvers deal good damage regardless of size, and stealth can be a viable combat tactic. Good point on reach though, added 5 mu minimum for in-built melee like the other monado classes each get a special weapon with it.

As for balance... I dunno, it just seems that as a detriment it scales faster than you improve? If you get faster it takes more energy, it negates reactor more as time goes on, it takes fewer maneuvers to eat through it... the combination of costlier + blocking energy regen seems a bit overkill.

I mean, let's say you're level 6 and have taken agility as repeatedly. That's a base speed of 60MU.

If you use flight and a 3rd-level maneuver, that's 75 energy. Which you can't regen until you land and more or less waste a turn. For one turn's worth of action. It feels steep?
Minimum Monado Maiden energy is 100 so it's still perfectly doable when you need it. And landing for a turn is hardly wasting time when you can still attack at range. Reasons to switch tactics are good in my humble opinion.

(Also do seriously none of the classes have access to flight spells etc?)
They do, but none have unlimited spell lists so taking flight stuff is an opportunity cost and magic buffs can be dispelled/supressed.

Speaking of which the monado classes are also supposed to be more about teamwork as in Mark of Monado allowing to bring back other Monado people so you can just ask Kuromaiken if Hugo can keep you topped up with flight spells.
Nevermind Mark of Monado actually blocks all flight even if from other sources.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 05, 2019, 11:57:53 PM
Hm, my concern is largely that getting good ranged options when pulling from super robot is hard--particularly ones that don't eat energy.

There's a certain threat that an enemy with good ranged attacks can hover far enough away you can only attack every other turn due to Maiden's regen lack and high flight cost (75/100 is doable, sure, but then you're on 25 and probably going to need to land to regen). Or just kite entirely. Or less numerically, it's closer to jumping if you can't actually engage flying enemies reliably because they can coast and you can't?

From the phrasing, I'm not sure if the energy costs only apply to mecha flight or all flight speeds regardless of where they come from. Actual mecha seem to eat energy even if the flight comes from the other half of a gestalt or a buff. Which is what really pushes it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 06, 2019, 08:36:54 AM
I don't know how much clearer I can be about this, the monado classes are meant to be land based. You may as well be complaining that a warblade sucks at spellcasting and a wizard can kill them from a safe distance with spells that can only be countered by spells. If you want to play something based in flying around, then don't play a monado class, and if you want to play a monado class then you can rest assured I won't suddenly start throwing super flying kiters (which I never did in all the years the campaign lasted) and also like I never threw wizards that made themselves invulnerable to damage while attacking you from their pocket planes.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 06, 2019, 11:54:13 AM
Okay,  so setting aside my fear of flying enemies, I have two mechanical questions:

Monado Maiden makes your base race cyborg. Monster classes remove said base race. How do these resolve?

Quote
Either way a Monado Maiden counts as a Super Robot of Monado Maiden level except her HP is based on her HD instead of base Super Robot progression

Does, e.g., plating still give HP?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 06, 2019, 09:51:30 PM
Okay,  so setting aside my fear of flying enemies, I have two mechanical questions:
In case you're still afraid, I'll point you to the Dynamic Terrain feat that allows you to use maneuvers to apply exotic enviroments to the field, including Bi-dimensional that would make everybody count as if they're at the same height like most SRPGs and you'll never need to fear anybody to be too high for you to reach.

Monado Maiden makes your base race cyborg. Monster classes remove said base race. How do these resolve?
Welp the latest one would overwrite the other so if you're taking both at first level you get to choose (and you'll probably want the monster class since otherwise cyborg would eat up all the monster class levels). Unless you take the feats to be able to benefit from both.

Quote
Either way a Monado Maiden counts as a Super Robot of Monado Maiden level except her HP is based on her HD instead of base Super Robot progression

Does, e.g., plating still give HP?

Yes, HP from upgrades doesn't count towards the base Super Robot HP progression.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 06, 2019, 10:25:41 PM
Huh, that's a neat feat. Bi-Dimensional also seems great for Infiltrator Einst Queens, who otherwise have to be standing on a drone to reach anyone. xD
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 07, 2019, 03:24:26 PM
Looking at the "new uses for old skills" wording and the balance/ride tweaks...

Quote
The allied mecha must be fired from a mecha of your own size or bigger.

Same for the enemy mecha.

I assume that should be "must be your own size or bigger" and not an implication that your allies must be fired out of a cannon before you can balance on them.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 07, 2019, 08:11:57 PM
I have discovered something that makes me uncomfortable.

Besides the player not being an asshole, what stops a Ship Captain from taking Leadership and having Support Staff followers that only spend their rounds repairing/reloading/recharging the ship?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 07, 2019, 08:29:56 PM
You can't take actions besides exiting while riding a mecha (and ships count as mechas) as a passenger unless you have a specific ability for it.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 07, 2019, 08:33:48 PM
You can't take actions besides exiting while riding a mecha (and ships count as mechas) as a passenger unless you have a specific ability for it.

I saw that in the Monado classes but didn't realize that it was a general rule. That makes me feel better.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 07, 2019, 08:38:27 PM
For reference, it's in the intro post:

Unless otherwise noted, each mecha has only enough space inside for the pilot carrying a light load. This can be spent to carry other people if the pilot is strong enough, although those other people cannot contribute to the mecha's abilities unless noted otherwise, and they will have to squeeze in the pilot's lap/back. Such freeloaders cannot take any actions besides basic speaking that can never trigger other stuff, including being unable to use Spirits unless they have a specific class feature that mentions it like a ship captain's 2nd officer or a Peace Princess's passenger ability. The exception is that it is  a move action for them to exit. If the current pilot does not wish to let freeloader exit, roll opposed pilot level+Str mod checks.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 07, 2019, 08:40:23 PM
Got it, I must have skimmed over that assuming it was about non-ships.  Now I can have a lot of support staff and not feel like I have to restrain myself from gaming the system.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 07, 2019, 11:58:59 PM
I assume that the multiclass rules are based on what type of mecha it is and not actual class chosen?

Edit: Nevermind, everyone I'm looking at already says that.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 08, 2019, 09:37:30 PM
Arsenal > Special Weapons > II > Secura Penta is missing Crit information.

Edit: I also just noticed that some guns have a damage type of -.  Does that mean that they don't do any specific type of damage?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 10, 2019, 08:08:16 PM
Arsenal > Special Weapons > II > Secura Penta is missing Crit information.

Edit: I also just noticed that some guns have a damage type of -.  Does that mean that they don't do any specific type of damage?

It means they don't deal damage at all, clarified. Also fixed the Secura Penta crit.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 10, 2019, 10:18:35 PM
Arsenal > Special Weapons > II > Secura Penta is missing Crit information.

Edit: I also just noticed that some guns have a damage type of -.  Does that mean that they don't do any specific type of damage?

It means they don't deal damage at all, clarified. Also fixed the Secura Penta crit.

Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle, and Antimatter Rifle all have damage type -.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 10, 2019, 10:26:42 PM
Ah, those ones, added damage types.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 10, 2019, 10:54:55 PM
Updated my sheet!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 11, 2019, 07:38:41 PM
Do Neo Skills apply to mechas that you are piloting?

Extra question: If a Ship takes a melee weapon with its arsenal is that a ramming weapon?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 12, 2019, 07:42:03 PM
As a more general question, Distinguished Officer could use a way to change what role your officer has.  For example, Weapons Officer gets way better when the Officer is level 10 and not as great otherwise.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 14, 2019, 02:46:10 AM
Seems like I missed some questions here. :blush

Do Neo Skills apply to mechas that you are piloting?
Yes

Extra question: If a Ship takes a melee weapon with its arsenal is that a ramming weapon?
Of course.

As a more general question, Distinguished Officer could use a way to change what role your officer has.  For example, Weapons Officer gets way better when the Officer is level 10 and not as great otherwise.

Added option to change Distinguished Officers at level up.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 17, 2019, 12:37:39 AM
Tek Knight didn't get removed from outside of the Ultimate Upgrades spoiler for the Super Robot upgrades.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 17, 2019, 04:29:07 AM
Fixed, thanks!
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Nanshork on April 23, 2019, 09:44:28 AM
I recently noticed some vagueness with the Database feat.  Is it meant to use Pilot Level in place of ranks or grant it as a bonus to the check?  I ask because it says "can use their own pilot level for Knowledge checks" (emphasis mine) instead of can add.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on April 23, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
It's instead, clarified.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on June 26, 2019, 02:34:12 AM
Added Forzando Frame feat for Ideal Idol, plus multiclassing notes for the case they mix with Ship Captain. Added Athletic Idol ACF too. Fixed typo in Ideal Idol feats where "Spirit spirit" was actually meant to be the Yell spirit. Clarified that Ultimate Engineering jobs can be changed. Coordinator blindsight now works in space/vacuum. Improved funnels can be taken multiple times to cover different types simultaneously. Moved Basher Code to tier V. Kudos to YuweaCurtis for pointing out most of those.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: DeTess on August 02, 2019, 07:12:58 AM
I've been looking through this set of Homebrew, and it looks incredibly awesome! There where some questions I had that I couldn't find the answer too though, so I hope someone more familiar with  it could help me answer those.

First, a general impression I got was that energy seems very restrictive. Using higher level maneuvers and/or being engaged in airborne or space fights means you could conceivably burn through your entire energy reserve in 1-2 turns, and then you'd be stuck waiting for a 5 energy per turn recharge. Is that correct, or did I just fail to find all the energy and energy regen increasing equipment, feats and class features?

Secondly, how do feats interact with vehicles, such as mechs or battleships? I get how many of the basic feats like weapon finesse work, but would I be able to apply, for example, the flyby attack feat while piloting a mech or battleship. What about feats that increase flight maneuverability?

Speaking of battleships (I might ever so slightly be falling in love with the ship captain class), does flying the battleship consume energy as it does with mechs? And can you do a full-round attack with those twin-linked missiles (for, for example, 4 12d8 missiles at level 12)?

Lastly, I assume the attack bonuses listed with weapons is on top of everything else? So, to give an example, a lvl 12 ship captain firing the missiles from a huge battleship would have an attack bonus of 6(BaB)+2 (weapon bonus)-2(size penalty) for a total of 6?

Edit:

regarding Ammo weapons, am I correct in understanding you can fire them as many times as they have ammo, and then you need to spend a full-round action to reload the weapon?
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: oslecamo on August 02, 2019, 11:19:27 AM
I've been looking through this set of Homebrew, and it looks incredibly awesome!
Thanks! :D

There where some questions I had that I couldn't find the answer too though, so I hope someone more familiar with  it could help me answer those.

First, a general impression I got was that energy seems very restrictive. Using higher level maneuvers and/or being engaged in airborne or space fights means you could conceivably burn through your entire energy reserve in 1-2 turns, and then you'd be stuck waiting for a 5 energy per turn recharge. Is that correct, or did I just fail to find all the energy and energy regen increasing equipment, feats and class features?
There is the Reactor special mecha property that increases mecha energy regen by 10% per Reactor level. A few real robots have it by default, but you can also obtain it through accessories (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7163.msg321595#msg321595), Super Robots have the Mysterious power upgrade, Annihilation Engine 1st level stance from Neo Granzon (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18586.0) martial school grants Reactor, there's also the Machinery Warrior and Soul Soldier prcs, a  support staff mechanic can recharge energy too, the child soldier (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17870.msg336228#msg336228) trait has several options that increase energy recovery, the Helpful Autonomous Robotic Operator Extra feat can grant Reactor too, then there is the Resupply spirit too.

Secondly, how do feats interact with vehicles, such as mechs or battleships? I get how many of the basic feats like weapon finesse work, but would I be able to apply, for example, the flyby attack feat while piloting a mech or battleship. What about feats that increase flight maneuverability?
Feats would work when the rules fit, so something like improving flight maneuverabily would be fine.

Speaking of battleships (I might ever so slightly be falling in love with the ship captain class), does flying the battleship consume energy as it does with mechs?
Normally yes, although battleships have the cruising speed option to fly with no energy cost in return for some limitations.

And can you do a full-round attack with those twin-linked missiles (for, for example, 4 12d8 missiles at level 12)?
Yes.

Lastly, I assume the attack bonuses listed with weapons is on top of everything else? So, to give an example, a lvl 12 ship captain firing the missiles from a huge battleship would have an attack bonus of 6(BaB)+2 (weapon bonus)-2(size penalty) for a total of 6?
You would also add Dex mod, and battleship weapons have an extra scaling bonus equal to 1/2 level to their attack rolls, but otherwise correct.

Edit:

regarding Ammo weapons, am I correct in understanding you can fire them as many times as they have ammo, and then you need to spend a full-round action to reload the weapon?
That's the default reload option, but there are accesories for faster reloading as well as some class abilities (support staff mechanic, resupply spirit) and the Veteran Mechanic feat for ship captains.
Title: Re: Great General Discussion and Suggestions II-Z
Post by: Fzakken on July 12, 2022, 11:21:29 PM
Can you use two weapon fighting in a mech, or is it strictly subsumed by twinned weapons?

Does GN Drive affect GN Field?

For mecha engineer, once you've added all of one real robots weapons to your mecha, can you start adding anothers? If not, would you allow a feat to do this?

In peace princess' super robot progression, does she gain super points each level, or Just health and the other defensive increases?