Author Topic: Arhosan Seedcasting Index & Discussion  (Read 73349 times)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2016, 06:35:17 PM »
On EX abilities: I'll ponder it and see if I can come up with a middle ground between everything and nothing.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2016, 10:46:05 PM »
I was making a big analysis, but most of the special qualities that don't adjust stats, deal damage, or regain hit points aren't worth it (and I was already nixing those.

Instead, how about I scrap gaining Ex things (aside from the special attacks specifically mentioning a natural weapon) and make the following changes:
- If you turn into a creature that has the aquatic subtype, you gain that subtype for the duration of the seed (breathe water instead of air). (No cost)
- If you turn into a creature with the Waterbreathing or Amphibious special qualities, you gain them for the duration of the seed. (No cost)
- Giants should probably get the Rock Throwing and Rock Catching abilities if that's part of their entry. (maybe cost?)
- Maybe give Swallow Whole/Constrict at a cost (if the creature had it), merged with one of the other cost increasing things?  They're pretty iconic and not overpowered.
- Should the five extra points dragon extra effect include the breath weapon instead of having it be separate?

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2016, 06:52:20 AM »
Quote
What do you want to change the costs to?  It's your system so you know what balance point you're looking for.

How does this sound?

Animals, Humanoids: 1
Vermin: +2
Monstrous Humanoid: +2
Magical Beasts: +4
Giants: +4
Fey: 5
Aberrations, Dragons, Elementals, Outsiders: 7

I was making a big analysis, but most of the special qualities that don't adjust stats, deal damage, or regain hit points aren't worth it (and I was already nixing those.

Instead, how about I scrap gaining Ex things (aside from the special attacks specifically mentioning a natural weapon) and make the following changes:
- If you turn into a creature that has the aquatic subtype, you gain that subtype for the duration of the seed (breathe water instead of air). (No cost)
- If you turn into a creature with the Waterbreathing or Amphibious special qualities, you gain them for the duration of the seed. (No cost)
- Giants should probably get the Rock Throwing and Rock Catching abilities if that's part of their entry. (maybe cost?)
- Maybe give Swallow Whole/Constrict at a cost (if the creature had it), merged with one of the other cost increasing things?  They're pretty iconic and not overpowered.
- Should the five extra points dragon extra effect include the breath weapon instead of having it be separate?

The water/aquatic sounds find.
Rock Throwing as a +1 or +2 cost option.
Swallow Whole, etc., as same. Can also apply to pounce, trample, rend, etc.
I'd leave the dragon breath as an extra cost. Dragons are damn strong.

Edit: Teleportation rules below. I actually only came up with one seed for it, because I wasn't certain if we wanted to have a planar travel seed inside the teleportation rules. And if so, how do we lump together Ethereal, Astral, Shadow, and general travel?

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« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:14:20 AM by Stratovarius »

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2016, 10:09:19 AM »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2016, 11:14:21 AM »
We're almost there.

(click to show/hide)

Woodland Form allows turning into a plant, but you didn't mention a plant cost.  Do you want plant removed?  Currently it's at 5 extra points.

Every seed got touched on (even if just adding the new two point gain limited "(Ex)" special attacks. 





Teleportation
Looks fine.  I'm not sure if you want interplanar travel either.

A second possible seed - switching people as per Benign/Baleful Transposition.

A third possible seed - one that always travels in feet but allows you to combine it with a damage spell and damage everything between your starting point and ending point.

Also - Tree Stride/Transport Via Plants


Scrying
I don't see any issues here.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2016, 11:32:16 AM »
Woodland Form allows turning into a plant, but you didn't mention a plant cost.  Do you want plant removed?  Currently it's at 5 extra points.

I just forgot about it. +4 like Magical Beast. Otherwise, there's one or two missing words, mostly in Civilized, and after that I think we're done.

Teleportation
Looks fine.  I'm not sure if you want interplanar travel either.

Me neither, but it is an area of D&D that needs to exist if it's going to be useable outside of Arhosa ever.

A second possible seed - switching people as per Benign/Baleful Transposition.

You can actually do that with the existing seed, with a bit of faffing (I think. Targeting still confuses me somewhat :P).

A third possible seed - one that always travels in feet but allows you to combine it with a damage spell and damage everything between your starting point and ending point.

Not sure about this one - it allows much longer damage beams than otherwise available.

Also - Tree Stride/Transport Via Plants

I've mostly been ignoring the "do it via plants" thing that the druid occasionally has going on. It's just a matter of flavour, since a Druid can only cast the spells while touching a tree if he wants.

Scrying
I don't see any issues here.

Ok, good :)

And now, Detect. Which was annoying to make.

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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2016, 12:20:30 PM »
Cleaned up and standardized the language (the word form was thrown around too many times).  Unless you've got any more issues, my only question is: is DR/SR/Energy Resistance really worth 5 points?

Interplanar travel should be its own seed(s) if included.

I didn't notice that Distance Stride has a save.  I'm not sure how to use it to swap, but it can be used to move enemies far away and that's good enough for me.

It's fine if you don't want damaging teleport spells, I just know that's a thing in normal D&D.

Actually, druids can't cast Distant Stride.  It's arcane only.  That's why I suggested "do it via plants".  :P




OMG, DETECT IS IT!

You want a spell that only targets evil creatures?  Add Detect (Evil) to it!  This solves everything!   We just need to write up a sentence that says something like "If a detect seed is combined with another seed, only targets detected by the detect seed are targeted by any seeds it is combined with".

I'm way too excited about this!

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2016, 12:43:22 PM »
Cleaned up and standardized the language (the word form was thrown around too many times).  Unless you've got any more issues, my only question is: is DR/SR/Energy Resistance really worth 5 points?

That depends greatly on the individual monster. I can possibly see dropping it to +3 or +4 instead, but there's certain ones (high level outsiders ahoy!) where it's just a massive boost for a few points.

Interplanar travel should be its own seed(s) if included.

Oh, definitely. Just not sure how to go about it.

I didn't notice that Distance Stride has a save.  I'm not sure how to use it to swap, but it can be used to move enemies far away and that's good enough for me.

Yeah, that's why teleport has the "no damage" limitation in it as to where you can put people.

Actually, druids can't cast Distant Stride.  It's arcane only.  That's why I suggested "do it via plants".  :P

Got a list of the "do it via plants" spells that Druids have access to?

You want a spell that only targets evil creatures?  Add Detect (Evil) to it!  This solves everything!   We just need to write up a sentence that says something like "If a detect seed is combined with another seed, only targets detected by the detect seed are targeted by any seeds it is combined with".

I'm way too excited about this!

And... no. That makes detect as an option way too strong.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2016, 12:50:13 PM »
Cleaned up and standardized the language (the word form was thrown around too many times).  Unless you've got any more issues, my only question is: is DR/SR/Energy Resistance really worth 5 points?

That depends greatly on the individual monster. I can possibly see dropping it to +3 or +4 instead, but there's certain ones (high level outsiders ahoy!) where it's just a massive boost for a few points.

Do you have an example?  I can't find any where it seems like a huge issue since you can't gain any immunities.

Quote
Actually, druids can't cast Distant Stride.  It's arcane only.  That's why I suggested "do it via plants".  :P

Got a list of the "do it via plants" spells that Druids have access to?

Transport using nature: Frostfell Slide, Swamp Stride, Transport Via Plants, Tree Stride

It's not a big enough theme for me to care if you leave it out.

Quote
You want a spell that only targets evil creatures?  Add Detect (Evil) to it!  This solves everything!   We just need to write up a sentence that says something like "If a detect seed is combined with another seed, only targets detected by the detect seed are targeted by any seeds it is combined with".

I'm way too excited about this!

And... no. That makes detect as an option way too strong.

Did we ever come up with a better idea?

Add it as an Extra Option for whatever point cost is appropriate.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2016, 01:32:17 PM »
Do you have an example?  I can't find any where it seems like a huge issue since you can't gain any immunities.

Damage reduction 10/good and cold iron, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 25, all for 5 points, is one example. That's not possible under the system as constructed without paying far more.

Transport using nature: Frostfell Slide, Swamp Stride, Transport Via Plants, Tree Stride

It's not a big enough theme for me to care if you leave it out.

I'll take a look at them.

Did we ever come up with a better idea?

Yes. Those few seeds that are supposed to target something (Chaos hammer, etc.) have it built into the seed.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2016, 01:51:23 PM »
Fair enough on the points.



So the solution was severe limitation, fair enough.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2016, 03:08:46 PM »
So the solution was severe limitation, fair enough.

Pretty much. Also, merging seeds into the main thread for them now.

Elemental Resistance seed:

Elements Abated: Flavour
  • Seed Type: Arcane, Divine, Nature, Skill
  • Descriptor: None
  • Range: Personal, Touch, Close
  • Targeting: Single, Multiple
  • Duration: Any except Instantaneous
  • Save: None
  • Seed Effect: The target(s) gain resistance 10 to energy damage. The spell absorbs 10 damage per spell point, then dissipates.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 03:41:37 PM by Stratovarius »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2016, 03:25:10 PM »
So it's the weakest combination of Resist and Protection from Energy?

Terminology should be energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic), not element (air, earth, fire, water).

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2016, 03:39:28 PM »
I actually just grabbed it from the Stoneskin seed and tweaked slightly. Course, I should have kept the "any energy damage" bit from that...

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2016, 04:02:28 PM »
Having difficulty coming up with extra effects for THP. Didn't want to cram Death Ward on there, since that's an insanely powerful spell already.

Endurance Continual: Flavour
  • Seed Type: Arcane, Divine, Nature, Skill
  • Descriptor: None
  • Range: Personal, Touch, Close
  • Targeting: Single, Multiple
  • Duration: Any except Instantaneous
  • Save: None
  • Seed Effect: The target(s) gain five temporary hit points per spell point. These temporary hit points do not stack with other sources.
  • Extra Effect:
Life Conjoined: Flavour
  • Seed Type: Divine
  • Descriptor: None
  • Range: Any except Unlimited
  • Targeting: Any
  • Duration: Any except Instantaneous
  • Save: Will negates
  • Seed Effect: For four spell points, the target(s) become linked, such that whenever one of them takes damage, the damage is instead shared equally to all target(s) (rounding up if necessary).
  • Extra Effect: For an extra six spell points, each target takes the full amount of damage dealt, instead of sharing it equally. For an extra eight spell points, target(s) also share the effects of any spell that affects one of them. If a creature is already affected by the spell (including making a saving throw against it), it is not affected again.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2016, 04:29:24 PM »
Spell Seeds Review/Cleanup

I like putting spell points at the front instead of the end, that makes it easier to scan for what you want.  (Note: this doesn't apply to "x bonus per spell point".  Just the ones with write-ups for effects.)
I'm also going to try to add schools to everything (I understand that this can get debatable).
In addition, general reviews/suggested changes.
As always, anything not mentioned is something I think is fine.

I'M NOT LOOKING AT TARGETING.

Notes in parenthesis are questions/explanations.

Also, Firefox says that flavour is spelled wrong. :P

And yes, I like splitting the extra effects into individual lines per effect.  I think that makes it easier to parse.

(click to show/hide)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2016, 04:33:27 PM »
Endurance Continual:
  • School: (I have no idea)
Life Conjoined:
  • School: (I really have no idea...)
  • Extra Effect: For an extra six spell points, each target takes the full amount of damage dealt, instead of sharing it equally.
    For an extra eight spell points, target(s) also share the effects of any spell that affects one of them. If a creature is already affected by the spell (including making a saving throw against it), it is not affected again.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2016, 05:10:04 PM »
Firefox can bugger itself. :P

Why the change to damage removed on a save? That's bizarre by comparison to normal D&D. Definitely not going with that. Nor do we need a general rule. That's what the individual seeds are for.

Creation & Summoning aren't descriptors - they're subschools.

Life Conjoined is either Transmutation (it's based on the Psychometabolism power Share Pain) or Necromancy (Psionics don't do Necromancy). I'm inclined to lean Trans.

Endurance Continual I think is Necromancy. False Life is the closest spell at the moment, so why not?

List updated with schools.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2016, 05:33:34 PM »
Firefox can bugger itself. :P

I'm in America, we don't use random u's in our words!

Quote
Why the change to damage removed on a save? That's bizarre by comparison to normal D&D. Definitely not going with that. Nor do we need a general rule. That's what the individual seeds are for.

Actually almost all non-reflex saving throw spells are no damage on a save. And I wasn't putting in a general rule, all parenthesis are just notes, me talking to you. I did put it in all of the individual seeds.  Sometimes I feel like you stop reading what I wrote halfway through...

However, it looks like you put that in the save description (which I was automatically deleting) and I just wasn't paying enough attention and thought you hadn't noted half/no damage on a successful save.

Quote
Creation & Summoning aren't descriptors - they're subschools.

Fair enough, I was just copying/pasting off of PHB spells by that point.  Too many seeds.  Are we not giving the seeds subschools?

Quote
Life Conjoined is either Transmutation (it's based on the Psychometabolism power Share Pain) or Necromancy (Psionics don't do Necromancy). I'm inclined to lean Trans.

Endurance Continual I think is Necromancy. False Life is the closest spell at the moment, so why not?

I'll let you figure it out. :p

Quote
List updated with schools.

Do we want School above Seed Type?  I feel like Seed Type should be first, then school and then descriptor. 

Terror's Face (Condition) - Why did you decide not to have this be mind-affecting?

Utter Collapse (Condition) - You accidentally removed the Seed Effect.

Movement Undone (Condition) has the /url tag from when I linked to the SRD and then decided not to but apparently did a bad job of cleaning up.

Where things lie (Detect) - The second extra effect should say "For an extra three spell points", I missed that one.  (This is just a language standardization thing.)

Guided Tongue and Winged Feet (General) don't have schools.

Unseen Eye (Scrying) - The second extra effect should say "For a further four", I missed that one too. (More standardization.)

Also, it looks like we need some Message seeds.

Distance Stride (Teleportation) - Teleportation is a subschool, not a descriptor.  :p

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Spellcasting Rebuild Discussion
« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2016, 05:53:30 PM »
With all the light/dark feats we should have a seed that's based off of Control Light/Light/Darkness/Daylight/Deeper Darkness.


Edit:
Other Ideas:

Feats:

(Shamelessly stolen from the same third party source I got the basis for the metamorphosis seeds)

Metamorphic Healing
Your body becomes adept at healing as your form shifts
Prerequisite: Knowledge of at least one Metamorphosis seed, Heal 8 ranks.
Benefit: You gain fast healing 1 every time you cast a Metamorphosis seed on yourself for a number of rounds equal to 1 + the primary modifier for the casting class that you cast the seed from. If you dismiss the seed before this time period ends, the fast healing effect ends as well.
Special: You may take this feat up to five times. Each time you take this feat your fast healing increases by 1. Thus, taking this feat twice gives you fast healing 2, taking it three times gives you fast healing 3, etc. Additionally, each time this feat is taken the Heal skill prerequisite rises by three. Thus, the second time this feat is taken the prerequisite is 11 ranks, the third time is 14 ranks, etc.



Seeds:

A seed based off of Endure Elements/Adapt Body

Cathartic Apportation looks very interesting.

As does Divert Teleport