Author Topic: Optimizing a Binder  (Read 4833 times)

Offline Shadeseraph

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Optimizing a Binder
« on: July 26, 2017, 07:33:30 AM »
Hey there. I'm going to participate in a (hopefully) long game with another 3 players. We are all experienced DMs and players, and we'll be rotating as the DM from arc to arc, to keep things interesting. We also have a lot of trust on the others, so we are being relatively lax in regards to allowing modifications and ideas. The base plot is a merchant planar ship going from plane to plane, both to open business opportunities and to discover new worlds - so, essentially, fantasy Star Trek. The characters conform the crew of the ship. Each one of us is making 3 characters, and a bunch of extra NPCs to use.

So - we are aiming towards a power level of (roughly) semi-optimized tier 3 characters. There are some Tier 1 classes in the mix, but for the most part we are restraining us from the really powerful stuff, such as persistent stuff and polymorph/gate abuse. Also, the campaign will span, hopefully, from level 3 to 12-15, but we don't intend to cross to lvl 17+ unless someone in the group has a really cool idea for "epic" levels.

The other two are more or less closed, but the last one I've been having several ideas, and after discarding a tasty Ur-priest / apostate of tenebrous / RKV build (both because it was a late bloomer and too powerful), I finally settled on a tanky binder/KotSS with a bit of crusader mixed in. The core concept is basically a Cthulhu zealot, roughly speaking, with slightly less psychopathic tendencies.

Currently the idea is:

Human Crusader 1 / Binder 4 / KotSS (Dahlver-Nar) 2 / Crusader 1 / KotSS 3

Str 15
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

Feats:
1-Weapon Focus (Guisarme? personally I'd prefer Great Weapon, but tanks tend to like reach)
1-Extra Granted Maneuver (possibly retrainable once the lvl 1 maneuvers are a bit less important)
F-Goad
3-Improved Binding

I'm not completely sure about what to get on the later levels. The extra crusader level is both to get cha to will and all the nice lvl 3 maneuvers, such as White Raven Tactics and Thicket of blades. I'd go for a simple stand still build, but I'm not sure I can pump the character's damage enough to make stand still viable, and I'd need to invest on combat reflexes, which requires some investment on dex.

The reason to pick crusader first is mainly to make the early levels easier. Straight heavy armor proficiency without relying on savnok is kind of a big deal, Iron's guard glare will probably help early on with those tankish duties, and dragon bones can actually be useful for a bit longer, especially when combined with Steely resolve and Shield Self from Dahlver-Nar.

So, suggestions? maybe change the stat distribution to be able to include standstill more efficiently? Feats? Another option is to get a couple feats and skill tricks to make intimidation more interesting, but I'm not sure I'd like the amount of resources that I'd need for this - but I certainly like the idea, given the character's concept.

(BTW, shield self + goad sound fun together against low will melee enemies)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:35:01 AM by Shadeseraph »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 04:01:50 PM »
Take the crusader level at 5th, so you can start out with 2nd level maneuvers (and get a lot more of them). You can survive without it up until then.

Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command is an incredibly powerful combination that would fit the character well, and only requires a single feat and 2 skill points.
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 12:11:28 AM »
Dahlver-Nar is okay, but I'd prefer to be perma-bound to someone more flexible like Focalor, or someone more powerful like Tenebrous or Naberius.

Dahlver-Nar rewards having an even Con bonus (i.e. +2, +4), and you have an odd Con bonus.

Dahlver-Nar rewards fast healing and/or regeneration. Consider getting at least one of those.

Your plan has 4 levels of Binder, and Binder level 4 grants a bonus feat, which can be Improved Binding. If you MUST have Improved Binding, that's the place to get it. Saves your level 3 feat for something more interesting.

However, if you're going to KotSS Dahlver-Nar, you don't actually need the Improved Binding feat. Skip it entirely.


Sometimes a DM will only allow 1st level maneuvers & stances at class level 1, due to a close reading of the rules text. This is technically one valid reading -- but it's not the only valid reading, and some DMs will allow you to go Binder 4 / Crusader 1 to get 2nd level maneuvers. Find out what your DM prefers.

The downside of Binder 4 / Crusader 2 is that you lose 8 skill points, you have BAB +0 at level 1 (which restricts feat choices), you have only Simple weapons and Light armor when you start play (at level 3), and you probably have a couple fewer HP since your maxed-out level 1 HD was a d8 instead of the Crusader's d10.

(I would personally prefer to play a Crusader 1 / Binder 2 at ECL 3, so I think your build is solid.)

Offline Shadeseraph

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 05:08:55 AM »
Thanks to both for your answers. Let's see...

Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command is an incredibly powerful combination that would fit the character well, and only requires a single feat and 2 skill points.

Yes! that was the name! I knew there was a feat that made combat intimidation viable alone, but I had forgotten about its name! Thanks so much! (it worked well with a fighter ACF that gave a bunch of intimidate goodies for free, IIRC)

Dahlver-Nar is okay, but I'd prefer to be perma-bound to someone more flexible like Focalor, or someone more powerful like Tenebrous or Naberius.

Actually, the issue is that I didn't realize that the character loses all its KoSS abilities if not bound to the patron vestige (silly mistake, as it makes all the sense in the world). I'll probably go with Focalor, then - tenebrous or other high-ish level vestige would require delaying entry into KoSS, of which I'm not very keen on, because right now we are not sure of the length of the campaign.
I'm not too keen on the breath weapon being fort based, if I'm going to play beatstick for the most part, but oh, well.

Your plan has 4 levels of Binder, and Binder level 4 grants a bonus feat, which can be Improved Binding. If you MUST have Improved Binding, that's the place to get it. Saves your level 3 feat for something more interesting.

However, if you're going to KotSS Dahlver-Nar, you don't actually need the Improved Binding feat. Skip it entirely.

Completely forgot about the extra feat at level 4 -_-. Besides, my mistake, as mentioned above. KoSS hard-binds the character to the patron vestige, so certainly taking IB with dahlver-nar is useless before EBL 8. If I take focalor I'll have to take it, though.

Take the crusader level at 5th, so you can start out with 2nd level maneuvers (and get a lot more of them). You can survive without it up until then.

Sometimes a DM will only allow 1st level maneuvers & stances at class level 1, due to a close reading of the rules text. This is technically one valid reading -- but it's not the only valid reading, and some DMs will allow you to go Binder 4 / Crusader 1 to get 2nd level maneuvers. Find out what your DM prefers.

The downside of Binder 4 / Crusader 2 is that you lose 8 skill points, you have BAB +0 at level 1 (which restricts feat choices), you have only Simple weapons and Light armor when you start play (at level 3), and you probably have a couple fewer HP since your maxed-out level 1 HD was a d8 instead of the Crusader's d10.

(I would personally prefer to play a Crusader 1 / Binder 2 at ECL 3, so I think your build is solid.)

Side note, but for the most part I'm the one doing the calls on the rules interpretations (it's a rotation campaign, and I'm the one most experienced with the ruleset), so...
I typically allow advanced maneuvers to be taken at class level 1 just fine, but the first level stance should be a level 1 stance, other than that I'm flexible.

Actually, I didn't remember before, but on top of the previously mentioned reasons to take Crusader at first level I also wanted it to be able to take goad now rather than later, to be able to take weapon focus on a martial weapon rather than a simple one and to be able to take both feats before lvl 6 (otherwise I'd have to wait to level 7 to enter KoSS). Extra HP and skill points were the proverbial icing on the cake, so to speak, too. Out of the level 2 maneuvers, there are a bunch of decent ones, such as Shield Block and Battle Leader Charge, but I wasn't sure they were worth the problem.

If I were to move Crusader to lvl 5, how'd you do it, feats and class progression wise? Binder 4/Crusader 2? Admittedly, getting +Cha to will early is interesting, but I wanted to use the Crusader 2 stance to get thicket of blades or another lvl 3 stance, and getting weapon focus at lvl 6 means delaying Imperious command to lvl 9 (I'm still partial to 1-4, but I'd like to see alternatives).


EDIT: unrelated, but one of the characters is a Mongol-esque duskblade (mounted archer/lancer). How dangerous would it be to allow her to channel through ranged attacks? Rules wise it would be the same as right now - can channel touch attacks through a ranged weapon as a standard attack, and at lvl 13 she'd be able to channel as a full attack action, but each target would only be affected by the channeled spell once. I was thinking of restricting it to duskblade spells only. Would it be fine?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:19:52 AM by Shadeseraph »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 07:19:16 AM »
You have good points for taking crusader at 1. I've certainly taken martial adept levels at 1st in multiclassed builds when it seemed more reasonable to do so rather than delaying, and this is probably the case here.

If you can use the online vestiges, then the feat that lets you ignore special requirements for binding them might be worth taking as a bonus feat at 4th, and keeping Improved Binding as one of your general feats. At least one of those had amazing abilities but had an insane requirement like binding it while in the Abyss... (Cabiri? Ahazu?)

But yeah... using that bonus feat slot for Improved Binding if you're not starting first level is probably the most optimal. From the very early levels, it makes a huge difference being able to bind higher level vestiges. Later on, not so much.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 07:20:47 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Nifft

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 05:55:16 PM »
Actually, the issue is that I didn't realize that the character loses all its KoSS abilities if not bound to the patron vestige (silly mistake, as it makes all the sense in the world). I'll probably go with Focalor, then - tenebrous or other high-ish level vestige would require delaying entry into KoSS, of which I'm not very keen on, because right now we are not sure of the length of the campaign.
I'm not too keen on the breath weapon being fort based, if I'm going to play beatstick for the most part, but oh, well.
IMHO the breath weapon is the least useful part of Focalor. It's situational (you need a target whose one-turn impairment is worth losing your whole action), the target must be subject to blindness, and even if you succeed it's quite possible for a boss-monster to have area attacks which aren't impaired. Plus it's a Fort save, as you note. It's an ability that I would trade out on an Anima Mage, for example.

The Aura of Sadness is solid gold for a melee character, and it makes you even sticker (foe -2 Tumble) & tankier (foe -2 Attack). It's the primary reason for your melee-centric character to bind this vestige. Aura of Sadness is a force multiplier for your allies who force saving throws, which is very sexy.

The lightning strike is like a free [Reserve] feat which gives you an option for when you can't do your melee thing. Options = power, so it's good even if it's not ever going to be your first choice.

The water breathing is nice when it's relevant, which is usually not that often in my games, but a nautical game would probably differ.


Anyway, other good targets for KotSS include:
- Ahazu (a web vestige; level 3) - requires Ignore Special Requirements feat to be usable.
- Karsus (level 3) - more useful than usual in a T3 game where you don't have a Wizard to use those items. Give this guy serious consideration if your group lacks a UMD specialist.
- Dantallion (level 5) - then go into Scion of Dantallion.
- Naberius (level 1) - brilliant in combo with Tenebrous Apostate for quick recovery of Corrupt spell damage.
- Tenebrous (level 4)

One combo for Tenebrous would be Divine Crusader, an accelerated caster who is usually ignored in favor of Ur-Priest, and then into Tenebrous Apostate. The requirement of BAB +7 is going to be relatively easy for a Crusader hybrid. Tenebrous grants access to the Chaos, Death, Evil, and Trickery domains -- of that list, I think Death is okay (for Animate Dead and Death Ward, then at higher levels Create (Greater) Undead). You're a prepared caster, so you can use Corrupt spells at spell levels where your Domain spell is awful.

Your build might go like:

Crusader 1
Binder 1-5 -- access to Tenebrous via Improved Binding at level 5
KotSS 1-2
Crusader 2 -- gets you up to BAB +7
Divine Crusader 1
Tenebrous Apostate 1-5
KotSS 3-5
(level 20 is free) Crusader 3 maybe?



Completely forgot about the extra feat at level 4 -_-. Besides, my mistake, as mentioned above. KoSS hard-binds the character to the patron vestige, so certainly taking IB with dahlver-nar is useless before EBL 8. If I take focalor I'll have to take it, though.
Yeah I honestly don't even consider KotSS before EBL 8, for exactly that reason.

Being perma-bound is painful if you don't have two vestige binding slots.

(IMHO the 2nd vestige slot should have come online at level 5, not level 8, but that's just me.)


If I were to move Crusader to lvl 5, how'd you do it, feats and class progression wise? Binder 4/Crusader 2? Admittedly, getting +Cha to will early is interesting, but I wanted to use the Crusader 2 stance to get thicket of blades or another lvl 3 stance, and getting weapon focus at lvl 6 means delaying Imperious command to lvl 9 (I'm still partial to 1-4, but I'd like to see alternatives).
Yeah Binder 1-4 and then Crusader 2, but you're starting at level 3 so that's just Binder 3 with light armor & simple weapons.

That's rough.

EDIT: unrelated, but one of the characters is a Mongol-esque duskblade (mounted archer/lancer). How dangerous would it be to allow her to channel through ranged attacks? Rules wise it would be the same as right now - can channel touch attacks through a ranged weapon as a standard attack, and at lvl 13 she'd be able to channel as a full attack action, but each target would only be affected by the channeled spell once. I was thinking of restricting it to duskblade spells only. Would it be fine?
The problem spells would be stuff like Dispelling Touch / Touch of Idiocy / Vampiric Touch which is supposed to impose a risk due to range.

Also, there's probably an assumption that a Duskblade would handle ranged combat by using her ranged spells (Kelgore's Fire Bolt / Scorching Ray / Ray of Exhaustion / Channeled Pyroburst / Polar Ray / etc.), or just take a [Reserve] feat. They're not helpless at range, and they don't need free Arcane Archer on top of their casting -- but you could suggest two levels of Arcane Archer as a way to get the desired ability. Duskblade / Arcane Archer is probably one of the better uses for Arcane Archer.

In any case, I would certainly restrict channeling to Duskblade spells only, that's consistent with my reading of the intended use.

Offline Shadeseraph

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 12:15:47 PM »
Hah, didn't know about Ahazu nor about corrupt spells - shows what I know. Ahazu with an at will 1 turn time hop and limited mind blank seems damn powerful. And the corrupt spell mechanic is actually really nifty, and conceptually I'm really liking the (Evil) Divine Crusader build - I'll have to see what I can do with it, because TBH I'm not sure we'll go much further than lvl 12-14. I'd probably finish it with either (adapted) RKV or Ordained Champion, if I though we were getting to 20.

Other than that, if I don't go the divine crusader route I'm fairly sure I'll stick with focalor and crusader 1 / binder 4 (and yes, the main reason by far is the Aura, the breath thing was a side remark). Utility-wise I'm less concerned because we have several utility-focused characters.

The problem spells would be stuff like Dispelling Touch / Touch of Idiocy / Vampiric Touch which is supposed to impose a risk due to range.

Also, there's probably an assumption that a Duskblade would handle ranged combat by using her ranged spells (Kelgore's Fire Bolt / Scorching Ray / Ray of Exhaustion / Channeled Pyroburst / Polar Ray / etc.), or just take a [Reserve] feat. They're not helpless at range, and they don't need free Arcane Archer on top of their casting -- but you could suggest two levels of Arcane Archer as a way to get the desired ability. Duskblade / Arcane Archer is probably one of the better uses for Arcane Archer.

In any case, I would certainly restrict channeling to Duskblade spells only, that's consistent with my reading of the intended use.

Good point (I actually mentioned that Duskblades are capable blasters in a pinch as well). She still wants to keep and use her bow rather than the spells themselves, for theme, but maybe allowing her to channel ranged touch attacks and rays through her bow would work (basically - melee attacks can channel melee spells, ranged attacks channel ranged touch spells)?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:18:19 PM by Shadeseraph »

Offline Nifft

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2017, 12:49:25 PM »
Hah, didn't know about Ahazu nor about corrupt spells - shows what I know. Ahazu with an at will 1 turn time hop and limited mind blank seems damn powerful. And the corrupt spell mechanic is actually really nifty, and conceptually I'm really liking the (Evil) Divine Crusader build - I'll have to see what I can do with it, because TBH I'm not sure we'll go much further than lvl 12-14. I'd probably finish it with either (adapted) RKV or Ordained Champion, if I though we were getting to 20.

Other than that, if I don't go the divine crusader route I'm fairly sure I'll stick with focalor and crusader 1 / binder 4 (and yes, the main reason by far is the Aura, the breath thing was a side remark). Utility-wise I'm less concerned because we have several utility-focused characters.
Okay.

If you're new to Binders, then I suggest also looking at Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen (and the name "Astaroth" appears twice so you actually have to remember "the Unjustly Fallen"): http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

Astaroth allows you to pick up an Item Creation feat on binding, so you can work with your fixed-list casters to create items & generally be awesome during downtime.


Good point (I actually mentioned that Duskblades are capable blasters in a pinch as well). She still wants to keep and use her bow rather than the spells themselves, for theme, but maybe allowing her to channel ranged touch attacks and rays through her bow would work (basically - melee attacks can channel melee spells, ranged attacks channel ranged touch spells)?
Maybe it would be balanced if she loses access to melee channeling and gains ranged channeling instead.

"Duskbow", I guess.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Optimizing a Binder
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2017, 01:12:58 PM »
Yeah... if you haven't looked at the binder's handbook, you definitely should... It mentions all the online vestiges, etc, that you might not otherwise know about. There are a few other handbooks on the class, but I don't remember them.
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