persistent spell feat

[Emanresu]

this feat costs +4 or +6 level spell slot to cast (dnd tools)depending on what book your reading
to me this means you cant persist any spell that raises the total of cost + level to 10 or more, 9 being the max.
So am I wrong, is this not correct?

The reason I ask is I've noticed on several threads this feat is mentioned with spells of all levels, recently a 9th level spell!

Ive never used this feat before so just wanted to know



2nd inquiry

I was just remembering a pc I made that took every jump feat, skill trick & magic items I could muster. And still was meehhh on jump. Oh I had a good power attack for damage, but still the jump height was not to impressive. I laughed when I realized that boots of jumping net you a whopping + 2 or 3 feet to your jump...hardly noticeable. Without ToB how to optimize the jump check. Classes, feats, skills, magics & other??

As far as classes go, I know of Blade Dancer, a class from Oriental Adventures, it does a respectable job. 

Eman

[Garryl]

this feat costs +4 or +6 level spell slot to cast (dnd tools)depending on what book your reading
to me this means you cant persist any spell that raises the total of cost + level to 10 or more, 9 being the max.
So am I wrong, is this not correct?

Not entirely correct. Normally, metamagic makes a spell take up a higher level spell slot, which thus prevents you from preparing or casting it if you don't have an available spell slot of that level. There are several feats, abilities, and other options that let you reduce or ignore the level increase (the Incantatrix PrC and the Divine Metamagic feat being the most common ones), thus allowing you to use metamagic that would normally push the spell's slot level above what you normally have access to. A few of these metamagic reducers limit themselves to what would normally take up a 9th level slot, but it's not a general rule, only a few specific cases.

[Emanresu]

there has to be an extreme limited amount of build combos with a select set of feats that would qualify. You mentioned a couple, are there more? Not every character is an incantrix, easy metamagic (dragon mag) and arcane thesis are the 2 feats I know of that lower the metamagic level cost. Nightsticks and a lenient DM are the divine casters way to persisted spells...but nightsticks cost a good 6,ooo or so a piece and only work once, is this right?

So what are legit ways to cast a 9th level spell and have it persisted? A DM may argue that a pc would have to be able to cast the level of spell, prior to discounting the persist cost to 0 adjustment. So a 2nd level spell would cost an 8th level spell slot. If you cant cast an 8th level spell or dont have a 8th level spell slot available, then you dont even qualify to persist the spell so regardless of how you would discount the spell-level cost, you wouldnt even have the chance to utilize your feats or magicals to do so.

I mean theres a certain leniency afforded at most tables but casting a 15th level spell shouldn't be one of them, am I right or am I way off base here?

I need/want specifics

Eman

[TuggyNE]

there has to be an extreme limited amount of build combos with a select set of feats that would qualify. You mentioned a couple, are there more? Not every character is an incantrix, easy metamagic (dragon mag) and arcane thesis are the 2 feats I know of that lower the metamagic level cost. Nightsticks and a lenient DM are the divine casters way to persisted spells...but nightsticks cost a good 6,ooo or so a piece and only work once, is this right?

I don't think there's any "work once" limitation on nightsticks, nor even, strictly speaking, any stacking limitation either.

And while of course there aren't that many builds that can persist freely, the power of such builds is so considerable, and the means of achieving that so practical, that the subject receives a great deal of attention.

So what are legit ways to cast a 9th level spell and have it persisted? A DM may argue that a pc would have to be able to cast the level of spell, prior to discounting the persist cost to 0 adjustment. So a 2nd level spell would cost an 8th level spell slot. If you cant cast an 8th level spell or dont have a 8th level spell slot available, then you dont even qualify to persist the spell so regardless of how you would discount the spell-level cost, you wouldnt even have the chance to utilize your feats or magicals to do so.

A DM could argue that, but it would be a houserule, not a ruling. It's a fairly commonly-suggested houserule, but I for one don't think it's the proper way to handle the Persist problem*; instead, changing the metamagic itself to give a more balanced result is more sensible. Fundamentally, the issue is that making a one-round-duration spell last 24 hours is just exactly as expensive as making an hour/level spell last 24 hours, which is absurd.

*For one thing, it means that any character with any metamagic reducers of any variety can never use their highest-level slots as efficiently (i.e., with as much metamagic) as their lower-level slots, which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

[Emanresu]

so whats the highest spell level that can be persisted? -arcane

[wotmaniac]

Persist = +6
Easy MM = -1
MM School Focus/Practical MM = -1
Arcane Thesis = -1
Incantitrix = -1
Sanctum Spell = -1

TOTAL = +1 -> Level 8 Spell
And that's before you go and get turn attempts for your wiz/sorc.
1 level of cleric and the feat Southern Magician/Alternative Spell source, and now DMM has just re-entered the picture.

[linklord231]

An Incantatrix could Persist a 9th level spell via Metamagic Effect, if she can pump her Spellcraft high enough. 

A Spelldancer could do something similar, with a Perform check instead of Spellcraft.

[altpersona]

Vestige Metamagic (Su): At 4th level, you can use a bound vestige to augment your spells by temporarily giving up access to its powers. Using vestige metamagic is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Choose one of the vestiges to which you are bound whenever you activate this ability. You can then apply the effects of any metamagic feat that you possess to a spell you cast that round, without increasing its spell level. However, you lose access to all the abilities and powers granted by the chosen vestige upon activation and do not regain them for 5 rounds. You cannot use this ability if you do not have a vestige bound, or if you do not currently have access to its abilities (through the use of this ability, an antimagic field, or some other effect). Vestige metamagic is usable once per day at 5th level, two times per day at 7th level, and three times per day at 9th level.

you Persist 3 level 9 spells a day w/ Anima Mage.

also yahoo for thread nemocracy

[nijineko]

2nd inquiry

I was just remembering a pc I made that took every jump feat, skill trick & magic items I could muster. And still was meehhh on jump. Oh I had a good power attack for damage, but still the jump height was not to impressive. I laughed when I realized that boots of jumping net you a whopping + 2 or 3 feet to your jump...hardly noticeable. Without ToB how to optimize the jump check. Classes, feats, skills, magics & other??

As far as classes go, I know of Blade Dancer, a class from Oriental Adventures, it does a respectable job. 

Eman

really? my character can jump farther than they can move. this leads to the odd situation that if they take all but the last 5' of movement in a round, jump with that last movement, they spend the entire next round in the air, then finally land on the third round. at least according to my dm who ruled that you can't move further than your movement rate in a single round, even if my jump check blows it away. i was tempted to take the flyby attack feat.

i think my max jump check is around 70 or 85 or so at 12th level (enough to clear a hill giant vertically!) and i didn't take every possible jump enhancer, either - i'm still missing one or two in that build, plus i didn't use OA or ToB.

[TuggyNE]

really? my character can jump farther than they can move. this leads to the odd situation that if they take all but the last 5' of movement in a round, jump with that last movement, they spend the entire next round in the air, then finally land on the third round. at least according to my dm who ruled that you can't move further than your movement rate in a single round, even if my jump check blows it away.

Your DM did not exactly "rule" that, in the usual sense of extending the RAW a bit; they simply applied a rule exactly as printed right out of the Skills section of the PHB.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.
[…]
If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Which means, after a bit of cogitation, that a character with a sufficiently high Jump check must double-move while in the air, converting their standard action to a move every turn and using both move actions to go as far as possible. They can't take any other actions at all, not even immediate or free actions. Nor can they run, since that's a full-round action, not a move action. AoOs are still possible, but good luck getting someone to provoke near a jumping character!

Flyby Attack would be a waste, in other words.

This post brought to you by needless nitpicking and the letter Q.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Id think any sane DM wouldn't force you to move the entire distance of a jump check you make, letting you take any number of feet under the roll should be fine =P

[TuggyNE]

Id think any sane DM wouldn't force you to move the entire distance of a jump check you make, letting you take any number of feet under the roll should be fine =P

Well, yes, but I was assuming the character was trying to jump as far as possible.

[nijineko]

really? my character can jump farther than they can move. this leads to the odd situation that if they take all but the last 5' of movement in a round, jump with that last movement, they spend the entire next round in the air, then finally land on the third round. at least according to my dm who ruled that you can't move further than your movement rate in a single round, even if my jump check blows it away.

Your DM did not exactly "rule" that, in the usual sense of extending the RAW a bit; they simply applied a rule exactly as printed right out of the Skills section of the PHB.

Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round.
[…]
If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

Which means, after a bit of cogitation, that a character with a sufficiently high Jump check must double-move while in the air, converting their standard action to a move every turn and using both move actions to go as far as possible. They can't take any other actions at all, not even immediate or free actions. Nor can they run, since that's a full-round action, not a move action. AoOs are still possible, but good luck getting someone to provoke near a jumping character!

Flyby Attack would be a waste, in other words.

This post brought to you by needless nitpicking and the letter Q.

Quite interesting interaction with the Dervish dance ability which grants full attack on the move... i failed to mention before that this character is a dervish.

and the character didn't qualify for flyby attack mechanically in any case, it was just a humorous comment made to the DM. ^^

[faeryn]

If you really want to boost your jump check, increase your speed.

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet (the speed of an unarmored human), then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a —6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet. For instance, if you have a speed of 20 feet, you take a —6 penalty on your Jump checks. If, on the other hand, your speed is 50 feet, you gain a +8 bonus.

[nijineko]

If you really want to boost your jump check, increase your speed.

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet (the speed of an unarmored human), then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a —6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet. For instance, if you have a speed of 20 feet, you take a —6 penalty on your Jump checks. If, on the other hand, your speed is 50 feet, you gain a +8 bonus.

yup, as a thrikreen dervish, i have a pretty nice speed too.