Author Topic: Feats that should be Free  (Read 9606 times)

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Feats that should be Free
« on: October 21, 2015, 02:51:39 PM »
The above really ties into my "feats that should be free" thread.

link handy? I did a quick google search and found one on Paizo, but wasn't sure if that's where you had posted it.
I swear I had done that before (and got trolled), but I can't find it. So it's time to start again. These are feats that your mundane character would never take for the abilitiy, and just stop there. The only reason these loser feats are taken is for prereqs to the real feats or PrCs, etc. Basically these feats are 100% feat tax material, designed only to hurt the new guy who wants to play a Fighter.

I've done the SRD, but there are tons that we can add. Not surprisingly these feats are going to be for mundanes, since feat taxes on casters is a good thing. The feats that can work with spells are only free when acting on weapons (or shields) physically wielded. I'm not that worried about casters with full BAB. This variant can be "plugged in" to any game. The only difference is slightly more powerful mundanes, and that mundane's builds now have some free feat slots if the strings match.

Organized by Prerequisites (the BAB here must be from class chassis. Divine power or skillful weapons don't help)
(click to show/hide)


Organized by Alphabetically
(click to show/hide)

The above nonSRD is just off the top of my head. I'm very interested in in hearing from more nonSRD feats. I hit up non-casting completes already, just for giggles.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2015, 03:26:16 PM »
Anything that verges on mathematical insignificance.
Heck they could just be a pile of freely chosen "things my pc can do".

any Skill Focus or +2/+2 type on Trained Only skills,
which you are not trained in, is nearly worthless.

any pre-req feats for non Full Caster prcs.
Kinda like your feat taxes on (full) casters idea.
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Offline Kaelik

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2015, 03:45:14 PM »
Dread Necros with Tome Tainted Soul and Druids with Natural Spell. If someone is basically mandatory for your class, just give it as part of the class. I'd honestly say the same thing about Extra Rage for Barbarians except that rage is obviously written better as a triggered effect that always happens on the trigger, wears off when a counter trigger occurs, and can be used infinitely, because daily rage uses are dumb.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 08:27:23 PM by Kaelik »

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2015, 04:53:47 PM »
Adaptive Style for swordsages comes to mind.

But something I keep wondering about these feats is if they're so crappy, why are they feats in the first place?  If they can be given for free then they either need to be baked in or buffed to the point of "I want to take this feat for the sake of taking this feat."  A +1 tends to be mathematically insignificant when it comes to D20 rolls (since +1 is effectively +5%).  A +2 starts being worthwhile because +10% feels like it matters.

So I'd probably leave the +3 and +2/+2 feats in, though it would be nice to have them get a bit more powerful later on if the game itself grows in any way that's more noticed than linear.  Usually the power advancement is quadratic for the properly powerful stuff, but sometimes it does go into exponential which ends up stronger than quadratic.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 10:26:53 PM »
I swear I had done that before (and got trolled), but I can't find it. So it's time to start again.
Was it be me? I bet it was by me.

But I don't really troll anyone, unless it's painstaking obvious. Just come off like I am. Still, you're like "mundanes should have +4 to everything, half miss for Concealment, +1 to AC, +NI attacks at the first level!" and there is no possible way to post something that can't me misconstrued as some kind of harsh rebuttal. Because it's pretty obviously those shouldn't be the benefits gained for playing a mundane, or lost if you choose to advance spellcasting.

Combat Expertise & One-Hander TWF are the only ones that I feel should be "free", because you pay for the usage of them making them more of a simple option. And while some options on the fly are very powerful, others (like combat expertise) are pretty bad choices 99.9% of the time anyway. So why the feat tax?

Offline Sarethus

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2015, 05:41:38 AM »
I don't know about free for all and particularly all those feats but I do agree some feats should be more automatic particularly for certain classes.

For instance my tables house rules:

Quick Draw (Auto for all at +9 BAB)
Eschew Materials (Spontaneous Casters)
Weapon Focus (Auto for BAB+1 Classes)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Auto for BAB+1 Classes)
Combat Expertise (Auto for all at +3 BAB, they should know how to duck at this point)
Adaptive Style (Auto All Martial Classes particularly Swordsages)


Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2015, 09:30:46 AM »
I used a houserule one time similar to this but I based the acquisition of those "free feats" on BAB. As the characters BAB progressed they automatically and gradually got (some) of those feats.

Offline Samwise

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2015, 03:36:28 PM »
I used a houserule one time similar to this but I based the acquisition of those "free feats" on BAB. As the characters BAB progressed they automatically and gradually got (some) of those feats.

I'd been contemplating something like that recently.

For example:
Two-Weapon Fighting
At 3rd level, it includes Two-Weapon Defense
At 6th level, it includes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
At 9th level, it includes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
At 12th level, it includes Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
At 15th level, it includes Greater Two-Weapon Defense
At 18th level, it includes some other relevant feat

I'm just wondering how many additional feats it would be good to add into these chain feats. (As well as just how many feats are available as options in each chain.)

Offline Daedroth

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2015, 07:30:35 PM »
Non-core:
Feats that let multiclass Monk and Paladin
Practiced Spellcaster
Able Learner
Accelerate Metamagic
Soamtic Weaponry

Core:
- Track
- Power Attack
- Combat expertise
- Improved Feint
- Endurance
- Natural Spell
- Point Blank Shot
- Rapid Reload
- Spell Mastery
- weapon finesse
- Heighten spell
- Greater and Improved TWF after you get the prerrequisites (Even erasing the Dex prerrequisite) (Hell! Even TWF should be free)


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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2015, 04:57:18 PM »
Oh yeah those Monk Multi- feats are stupid.
Anything like them should be automatic,
however the things with boosters, say like
Tashalatora or Carmindine, still need to cost something.
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Offline faeryn

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2015, 12:57:36 AM »
Shape Mindblade - any variant of this... this should just be an inate part of the Mindblade class ability...
Ambush feats - Sneak Attack builds could really do with the versatility...
Reserve Spell feats - one of the few sets of feats I have to say casters should have for free... it lets them feel more useful in more situations... it also helps to desuade casters from setting up camp between every encounter...
Archivist feats - specifially the ones that increase the types of creatures the dark knowledge ability works on.

Offline RelentlessImp

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2015, 08:41:47 PM »
But something I keep wondering about these feats is if they're so crappy, why are they feats in the first place?

Because WotC was stepping lightly when they made 3rd Edition, and feats were a great idea but they didn't want to turn off the 2E grognards who would be utterly upset that something that they don't have to pay for with already meager options (NWP) was so much better than what came before (NWP).

Offline Samwise

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 02:51:13 AM »
Because WotC was stepping lightly when they made 3rd Edition,

No they weren't.
They were curb-stomping established rules left and right with gratuitous glee when the made "3E".
They simply weren't as stupid as they were when they made "4E" to call all of their existing players drooling idiots who were too moronic to realize they hadn't been playing the game right for 8 years. (Not to mention letting them know they were sick of said players being a bunch of fat, pimply, nerdy, geek stereotypes who were making the corporate bigshots upset when they saw pictures from the recent in-house convention.)

Quote
and feats were a great idea but they didn't want to turn off the 2E grognards who would be utterly upset that something that they don't have to pay for with already meager options (NWP) was so much better than what came before (NWP).

Which might be true if:
1. Feats were particularly more abundant than NWP ever were. Which . . . they weren't. You got a NWP every 3 or 4 levels in 2E, depending on your character class.
2. Feats were only equivalent to NWP. Which . . . they weren't. There were all sorts of variant weapon proficiencies that foreshadowed a slew of "3E" feats, including some of the weapons style feats. Mind you, things like Blind-Fighting, Endurance, and Tracking were still NWP, which confused things even more.
3. There weren't additional options, like Traits in Skills and Powers, that were even more like proto-feats. Which . . . there were.

The only real functional differences with "3E" and feats to a slew of 2E options was the presentation. Mechanically, the concept was in 2E, and BECMI, long before "3E" ever got started.

What is a more likely reason for the slew of sucktastic feats is the pretentiousness of "system mastery" that was a core design element of the "3E" project, which was openly stated as the game was released.
Players were supposed to "learn" which feats were worthwhile and which were simply traps and adapt and evolve their character design and play accordingly.
This was of course a monumental failure for too many reasons, but because the system was abandoned for "4E" rather than revised to remove the "system mastery" requirement, the useless feats remain.

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2015, 03:56:52 AM »
"Free" feats is a step too far, but many of these feats should be buffed or rolled together.  For instance:
Weapon Focus should give a +1 to attack AND damage and scale every 5 levels or so.
TWF should work on standard action attacks and include Improved and Greater iterations
Weapon Finesse should give Dex to damage and apply to all finesse-able weapons
Dodge should scale and include Combat Expertise.
Most archery feats should be rolled together so that you're getting 2 for the price of 1
Improved Initiative should include Quick Draw, or Quick Draw is automatic after a certain BAB.
The Improved [maneuver] feats should be combined (like Bull Rush and Overrun, Feint and Disarm, Improved Unarmed and Grapple, Sunder and...something)
There should be a lesser version of Power Attack that everyone can use, similar to how you can fight defensively without Combat Expertise.
Cleave should be Great Cleave
Track should be a normal part of Survival skill
Shield Specialization and Improved Shield Bash
I always liked the idea of being able to take Sneak Attack +1d6 as a feat, especially in E6.  Maybe in a full game it could be +1d6 every 6 levels, or if you already have sneak attack turn your d6s in to d8s.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 04:12:53 PM »
But something I keep wondering about these feats is if they're so crappy, why are they feats in the first place?

Because WotC was stepping lightly when they made 3rd Edition, and feats were a great idea but they didn't want to turn off the 2E grognards who would be utterly upset that something that they don't have to pay for with already meager options (NWP) was so much better than what came before (NWP).

Oh yeah right, the grogs.
Luckily we've seen a couple different paradigms come through.
4e has the Feat Taxes, which if you don't have them --- or worse you don't know about their necessity --- you suck badly.
5e has feats built right into the +2 to stat maths , with varying degrees of success.

If what Libertad has said about O5R is right, it seems
the Ultra-Grogs are tumbling+grumbling to the 5e style.
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Offline faeryn

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 06:29:19 PM »
"Free" feats is a step too far, but many of these feats should be buffed or rolled together.  For instance:
Weapon Focus should give a +1 to attack AND damage and scale every 5 levels or so.
TWF should work on standard action attacks and include Improved and Greater iterations
Weapon Finesse should give Dex to damage and apply to all finesse-able weapons
Dodge should scale and include Combat Expertise.
Most archery feats should be rolled together so that you're getting 2 for the price of 1
Improved Initiative should include Quick Draw, or Quick Draw is automatic after a certain BAB.
The Improved [maneuver] feats should be combined (like Bull Rush and Overrun, Feint and Disarm, Improved Unarmed and Grapple, Sunder and...something)
There should be a lesser version of Power Attack that everyone can use, similar to how you can fight defensively without Combat Expertise.
Cleave should be Great Cleave
Track should be a normal part of Survival skill
Shield Specialization and Improved Shield Bash
I always liked the idea of being able to take Sneak Attack +1d6 as a feat, especially in E6.  Maybe in a full game it could be +1d6 every 6 levels, or if you already have sneak attack turn your d6s in to d8s.
My DnD group actually played with a few of these... specifically Quick Draw auto after BAB+5, Weapon Finesse applies to all  finessable weapons TWF works on standard action attacks... it worked out well...

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 02:16:22 AM »
My DnD group actually played with a few of these... specifically Quick Draw auto after BAB+5, Weapon Finesse applies to all  finessable weapons TWF works on standard action attacks... it worked out well...

Those exact same three were the ones we always used too.  Except Quick Draw was always free because no one wanted to be a stickler about whether you had your weapon drawn or not.
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Offline faeryn

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 06:00:52 AM »
My DnD group actually played with a few of these... specifically Quick Draw auto after BAB+5, Weapon Finesse applies to all  finessable weapons TWF works on standard action attacks... it worked out well...

Those exact same three were the ones we always used too.  Except Quick Draw was always free because no one wanted to be a stickler about whether you had your weapon drawn or not.

My DM believed we should have quickdraw without the feat tax, but only once we were capable of making multiple attacks in a round... Though I think he regretted it after he said we can drink potions as a free action during out move action once we have quick draw... especially since he said we could drink up to 2 potions at once >.< we all loaded up on True Strike & Wraith Srike potions...

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 07:55:22 AM »
But I don't really troll anyone, unless it's painstaking obvious. Just come off like I am. Still, you're like "mundanes should have +4 to everything, half miss for Concealment, +1 to AC, +NI attacks at the first level!" and there is no possible way to post something that can't me misconstrued as some kind of harsh rebuttal. Because it's pretty obviously those shouldn't be the benefits gained for playing a mundane, or lost if you choose to advance spellcasting.

While I agree most of the listed feats aren't that good and they shouldn't cost an entire feat, I, too, don't think they should all just be given out for free.


Combat Expertise & One-Hander TWF are the only ones that I feel should be "free", because you pay for the usage of them making them more of a simple option. And while some options on the fly are very powerful, others (like combat expertise) are pretty bad choices 99.9% of the time anyway. So why the feat tax?

In my games, I effectively hand out Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Finesse for free. They're turned into combat options and removed as prerequisites.
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Feats that should be Free
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2015, 01:10:04 AM »
My DnD group actually played with a few of these... specifically Quick Draw auto after BAB+5, Weapon Finesse applies to all  finessable weapons TWF works on standard action attacks... it worked out well...

Those exact same three were the ones we always used too.  Except Quick Draw was always free because no one wanted to be a stickler about whether you had your weapon drawn or not.

My DM believed we should have quickdraw without the feat tax, but only once we were capable of making multiple attacks in a round... Though I think he regretted it after he said we can drink potions as a free action during out move action once we have quick draw... especially since he said we could drink up to 2 potions at once >.< we all loaded up on True Strike & Wraith Srike potions...

I think we made you take the feat for that...also if you were a thrower you'd need quick draw to make full attacks.  Quick draw wasn't "free" so much as weapon drawing actions weren't enforced.
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