Author Topic: Evil druids  (Read 9818 times)

Offline divinedragonslayer

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Evil druids
« on: November 07, 2011, 09:19:45 AM »
I've got this idea for a game. Basically a group of evil druids use magic to destroy civilization which is threatening to consume nature as it stands. Now I realize by them summoning a global catastrophe would kill a lot of nature in the process.

My question is would a druid be able to rationalize sacrificing a part of nature if you will to destroy the threat of civilization overtaking nature? Granted they'd probably create small pockets hidden away from the world where those parts of nature are asleep.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 09:25:36 AM »
Well, you could certainly rationalize it, especially if you look at it from a circle of life type perspective.  Sometime the forest needs a fire to burn the undergrowth and dead trees away so the whole ecosystem can flourish again.

So yeah, not a stretch at all, I think.

Offline veekie

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 10:46:53 AM »
Depends on the catastrophe in nature and the consideration of the civilized areas. What extant terrain of the area has been co-opted and converted to an urban environment, so it depends on the existing ecosystem in place. Generally you can consider the city itself as a parasite or disease that is growing over time, so the areas near it are already doomed.

Besides, one philosophy of nature is the natural balance, that barring intervention, nature WILL prevail. Bombing it all to ashes and letting life thrive from the ground up is feasible.

It also depends on the type of catastrophe.
Weather based disasters are a rich profit for nature, if a three month long hurricane pounds all habitation into shrapnel, you lose larger lifeforms and trees, but smaller creatures will emerge into a paradise.
Aquatic disasters are somewhat worsened versions of weather, you slam everything with water and drown/break it all, which kills a lot, but what is left over is rich material for growth, and provided its not lingering, most seeds are still viable.
Geological disasters are superficial as far as nature is concerned. it really only harms brittle, rigid materials significantly.
Volcanic is a bit more...thorough, and would require special measures to repopulate after the heat cooks it all to death.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 10:50:49 AM »
It all depends on how strong their "for the greater good" morality is.

But, they may not need to, depending on the system and their methods.  You could adapt something like the Sentinel of Bharrai's "Nature-Friendly Spells" ability so that they wouldn't hurt anything they found sacred.  They could also look into using the Pestilence spell to create diseases that wipe out civilization.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 10:53:38 AM »

Volcanic is a bit more...thorough, and would require special measures to repopulate after the heat cooks it all to death.

It does, however, create an incredibly fertile soil when life starts to come back. 

Offline veekie

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 11:16:19 AM »
Yeah but you still need seed and root stock, and something to break down volcanic ash so it can be absorbed, and the heavy acidity needs to be countered etc.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline Mooncrow

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »
Yeah but you still need seed and root stock, and something to break down volcanic ash so it can be absorbed, and the heavy acidity needs to be countered etc.

Yeah, but nothing that a well-organized group of druids shouldn't be able to take care of^^ 

That said, I think I would go with other weather effects - there was a recent post on BG that calculated how many miles of snow you could stack up over a large area with fimbulwinter.  I think it was in X-Codes super spell list, or something like that. 

Offline divinedragonslayer

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 03:03:29 PM »
Actually the disaster I was going to use is plunging the world into a near eternal ice age. While a lot of creatures would perish I could see them creating areas where other habitats such as temperate forests, jungles, and such would be cultivated out of the prying eyes of civilization.

Granted this has happened long enough ago that no inhabitants save for immortals and other beings which are incredibly long lived remember. And honestly I'm thinking that no living dragon remembers the times which weren't locked in winter. Not even the descendants of the druids who turned the world to snow and ice. For them the war against civilization. Their goal is to wipe it out completely before reawakening the true splendor of nature.
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Offline Monotremeancer

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 03:20:02 PM »
I once wrote a setup for an adventure where Ice Giants used druidic magic to expand the polar icecap, resulting in lower average global temperature, more saline seawater and the spreading of monsters from the polar region. Imagine the magnitude of chaos you can create by ruining the oceans for a where 75% of the surface is water.

But yes, ice ages are a part of nature as well (well, they don't have to be in a fantasy-world, but still) and I can't see why a Druid who is not hell-bent on protecting a certain biotope or species would consider it a bad way of eradicating a world-wide threat.

Also, if they were mighty enough to start an ice age, saving certain areas by putting them in stasis does not seem like a huge problem.
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 06:03:53 PM »
Yeah, throwing the world into an ice age is flat epic-level stuff.  The spell is actually written up in Frostburn.  Throwing down some Mythals with some manner of Endure Elements effect is easy compared to that beast.

As for throwing down miles of snow with Fimbulwinter, it's going to take a while to actually cover the entire planet with those heavily metamagic'd Fimbulwinters.

Offline divinedragonslayer

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 06:08:21 PM »
I realize it's an epic spell, but this is happening in the distant past so the druids who do it are actually dead when the game starts.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 07:44:29 PM by divinedragonslayer »
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Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 07:15:51 PM »
If the civilization that they were trying to desroy was bad enough that the destruction of nature was a significant risk, evil may not even be required.

Let's say Artificers and Tippy Wizards were allowed to break the economy, use fabricate, PaO and the like to turn massive areas of wilderness into cities rapidly.  Nature is on a clock in this scenario and something would have to be done.

Other random fluff I just thought of:
Perhaps dinosaurs (or any creature you don't want in your game) died out during this time.

Since most trees died during the clensing times, a few saplings were saved and the epic druids awakened them to create Treents.  They were necessary to help spread seeds and protect the young forests from whatever pockets of civilization were left.

If instead the goal is just "what makes an evil druid?", perhaps druids that consider undead and certain evil planes to be a part of nature are evil as well.
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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 07:29:43 PM »
The question "what makes an evil druid" is at its core the same as the question "what makes an evil sorcerer" or "what makes an evil rogue." You have motivations, goals, and means of accomplishing them.

We could spend days arguing about the difference between the druid that thinks humans with no ties to the land (i.e. non-druids, rangers, whatever) should be eradicated from the natural order or the druid who honestly believes that nature's real face is death and decay, and who is willing to prove it by expanding the Evergloam's borders. We could, but that's honestly about the difference between evil and misguided, and there's no measuring stick for those things.

So your evil druid is a druid who either has evil goals in mind or is willing to use evil means to obtain those goals, and even that's not a very satisfying answer.
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Offline divinedragonslayer

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2011, 07:43:15 PM »
I could see it getting to the point where nature itself was under threat of being torn asunder by overpopulation and such.

I used the wrong name for my topic. Really what I'm asking is if a fanatical druid who saw all civilization above village a parasite and quite frankly unsustainable retaliate by creating a global disaster which would prevent mass habitation due to lack of food justify the loss of so much of nature. I'm really leaning yes to this honestly from what I've read, but I'm still a little bit split.

I see druids falling into two group; those who see themselves as guardians of nature as all plants and animals and those that feel that preserving nature means that as long as some form of nature surviving in some form. The problem is that could a circle of druids come to the conclusion that the only way to preserve nature is to plunge their world into an ice age?
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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2011, 07:52:19 PM »
Sure. Nature isn't just green plants and fluffy bunnies; it's the cataclysmic event that killed off the dinosaurs and the eruption of Vesuvius. If it's the choice between complete eradication of life and another ice age, most druids will take ice age any day.

Except for the ones that believe everything has its time and that safeguarding the natural order means letting civilization devour nature and then itself. The Attendants of the Ouroboros or something.
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Offline divinedragonslayer

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 08:22:01 PM »
My whole idea is that basically countless years ago city states stretched across contents. While there was enough food through magical means the cities threatened to consume all of nature. Now how big these city states actually were is open to interpretation. There are ruins of temples and other large building dotting the lands which haven't been covered by glaciers.

The legend goes that a group of druidic sorcerers fearing the parasitic civilization would consume everything natural decided to take action. Before plunging the world into near eternal ice the druids created areas underground or on special demi-planes where guardians would remain until the druids judged that those who lived in civilization were capable of handling the gifts of nature.

Over time the circle of druids who first created the ice age died off. These druids over time twisted the reason for the ice age into a war against all civilization. The only way to return the world to it's beauty is to wipe out every single perceived threat.

Either by divine design or by accident the band of adventurers stumble onto a temple or other place that tells of the sleeping plants and animals and the way to bring them back into the world thus severing the magic which caused the ice age.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 09:27:48 PM »
Theres much more than two groups even amongst devotees of nature.

Categorically you can have a bunch:
You have the all encompassing nature sort, who count even urban environments and sentient life among nature.

You have the mindless nature sort, who see sentient life and it's works as outside of nature.

You also have the environmental bigots, who have their conception of nature excluding certain environments. The more common side of this rejects urban environs, but a sizable faction would also exclude life-poor environs like tundra and desert. On the rarer extreme, they might reject all but a subset of environments, equating fecundity with nature.

You have the Life favoring druids, who see only the growth aspect of nature. Seelie fey aligned? Perhaps.

You have the Death favoring druids, who see the decay in nature. Much rarer than the Life favoring, most of these really go in the next category. Unseelie fey aligned or so.

You have the Great Cycle druids, who see it all as parts of a great process. Sometimes certain areas need pruning, or the cycle needs help getting back in balance.

You have the verdant druids. Plant bigots, who count vegetable life as 'true nature'.

You have the Great Hunt druids, fancying a return to a more primitive way of life essentially.

All those is before you even get into interference policy and methods, but one thing's for sure. No lack of them.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

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And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2011, 09:30:55 PM »
You have the all encompassing nature sort, who count even urban environments and sentient life among nature.

So basically their philosophy is "people are trees, too"?
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Offline Bozwevial

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 09:33:14 PM »
You have the all encompassing nature sort, who count even urban environments and sentient life among nature.

So basically their philosophy is "people are trees, too"?
Ants and bees build structures and fight among themselves, and some animals use tools. Humans are just another facet of nature, when you get right down to it.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Evil druids
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 09:40:15 PM »
Yeah, the only problem with people in the all-encompassing scope is that if you consider the philosophy of "everything in its place, in its time", that urban environments are growing too quickly, and offers other environments too little(other environments are either static(like mountains), or perform a role in the web of life.

Complexity is not a crime. In the encompassing view, urban life just needs some pruning.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.