Author Topic: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft  (Read 22987 times)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2016, 02:56:45 PM »
Upboats for Amechra!

Blademaster PrC is posted. I have some ideas for more material to work on, too... since "scope creep" is my middle name!
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2016, 04:29:48 PM »
Ugh, I'm falling behind.

Clay Style
 - The Mongoose Strikes the Serpent has a typo: "an another"

Is there a cap or ruling on bladecraft dice stacking?

Glass Style
 - Oak Shakes its Branches sounds extremely lethal, a +19 bonus to AC at 16th level in exchange for knocking your opponent out so your allies can finish him sounds like potentially too much.
 - River of Light - any reason you can't specifically target a limb?

Water Style
 - Whirlwind on the Mountain - are the extra damage dice added before or after halving the damage?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2016, 04:35:00 PM »
Raging Bladeform prompts the question: do techniques require patience or concentration (which would make then unable to be used in a rage)?

The other feats look good.  I'm a bit surprised that you can be in a form and a stance at the same time.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2016, 04:38:12 PM »
Blademaster
 - Heart's blood weeps - does this stack with other crit multiplier boosters?

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2016, 08:27:17 PM »
Ugh, I'm falling behind.
No worries.

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Clay Style
 - The Mongoose Strikes the Serpent has a typo: "an another"
  :banghead

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Is there a cap or ruling on bladecraft dice stacking?
Haven't thought about it. Are there enough ways to stack BC dice to cause balance problems, do you think?

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Glass Style
 - Oak Shakes its Branches sounds extremely lethal, a +19 bonus to AC at 16th level in exchange for knocking your opponent out so your allies can finish him sounds like potentially too much.
Hm... good call. I'll scale it back to 1/2 BC ranks.
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- River of Light - any reason you can't specifically target a limb?
Not really, other than that I didn't feel like writing any more specific rules than I already had :D

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Water Style
 - Whirlwind on the Mountain - are the extra damage dice added before or after halving the damage?
Before. I'll clarify in the text.

Raging Bladeform prompts the question: do techniques require patience or concentration (which would make then unable to be used in a rage)?
No. They're a product of training and muscle memory. If you have to concentrate or think about what you're doing, you'll be too slow in a combat situation. It needs to be instinctive. I'll put in some text about it.

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The other feats look good.  I'm a bit surprised that you can be in a form and a stance at the same time.
Why not? They're different subsystems. :) It's like being a cleric and a wizard at the same time.

Blademaster
 - Heart's blood weeps - does this stack with other crit multiplier boosters?
  Yes - I'll clarify.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2016, 09:36:12 PM »
A table (preferably sortable) with each technique's required and granted position, motion, and auxiliary tags would be really helpful to try to figure out a flow of things, especially for low-level characters who only have a few techniques and thus have to ensure that they can chain one to another. For example, Viper Flicks is an assault in Wax that requires the Thrust motion tag, which itself can only be acquired (in Wax) from the Parting the Silk and Unfolding the Fan assaults (no parries or forms).

Also, it's kinda odd to me that Unfolding the Fan and Viper Flicks are the only two techniques in Wax that can't be used with position tags. Also strange is Folding the Fan, which works off of any tag at all.

You've got one Wax form for each of the 4 position tags, and one for each of the 2 auxiliary tags (even though nothing in Wax uses Circle specifically), but none for any of the motion tags.

Math about tags for a sec. 4 position, 4 motions, and 2 independent auxiliary tags means 5*5*(2^2) = 100 tag permutations. So, you could have 10000 techniques with unique combinations of required and granted tags, including 100 forms (the ones with no tags required). Well, probably 99, since you probably don't want a form that grants no tags at all. Mind you, looking at the expert styles, you're treating Diagonal more like an auxiliary than a position, so that's 4*5*(2^3) = 160 permutations.

Speaking of independence and dependence of tags within their categories, I'd like to suggest enforcing in the design (and changing some of the higher complexity techniques) to have the two main tag categories (position, motion) be mutually exclusive within themselves (ie: only one of Low, Middle, High, or Diagonal at a time, ditto for Thrust, Bash, Slash, and Lunge). May also wish to change those techniques that let you pick which tags you're granted to likewise enforce this restriction.

Actually, if you do something like that except actually enforced in the rules, then aside from the auxiliaries, you don't actually need to have techniques completely replace the tags by default, instead only overwriting whichever tag category they grant a tag to. Tags might only get cleared if you use a technique that specifically removes them (like a big finisher). Um, hmm... I'm getting conceptual ideas for a system like that that also leverages the multiple attacks per round that high BAB characters get into a sort of build-your-own-combo system (within the span of a full attack). That would require at least 4 independent tag categories, rather than 2. Don't need to worry about extra attacks, since the maximum potency (and required tags) is limited based on the strongest techniques you know, so you don't get anything super extra, just building up to another smaller combo, or to make a more powerful parry available with a full powered finisher.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2016, 10:29:08 PM »
Techniques are inconsistent about the order that tags are written. I'd suggest always put position first, then motion, then aux.

Also, I'm working on a table for you. :)

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2016, 04:00:08 AM »
A table (preferably sortable) with each technique's required and granted position, motion, and auxiliary tags would be really helpful to try to figure out a flow of things, especially for low-level characters who only have a few techniques and thus have to ensure that they can chain one to another. For example, Viper Flicks is an assault in Wax that requires the Thrust motion tag, which itself can only be acquired (in Wax) from the Parting the Silk and Unfolding the Fan assaults (no parries or forms).
Viper Flicks (along with a few others) was added after I made the rest of Wax, so I hadn't accounted for it within the spread of tags in Wax.

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Also, it's kinda odd to me that Unfolding the Fan and Viper Flicks are the only two techniques in Wax that can't be used with position tags. Also strange is Folding the Fan, which works off of any tag at all.

You've got one Wax form for each of the 4 position tags, and one for each of the 2 auxiliary tags (even though nothing in Wax uses Circle specifically), but none for any of the motion tags.

Math about tags for a sec. 4 position, 4 motions, and 2 independent auxiliary tags means 5*5*(2^2) = 100 tag permutations. So, you could have 10000 techniques with unique combinations of required and granted tags, including 100 forms (the ones with no tags required). Well, probably 99, since you probably don't want a form that grants no tags at all. Mind you, looking at the expert styles, you're treating Diagonal more like an auxiliary than a position, so that's 4*5*(2^3) = 160 permutations.

Speaking of independence and dependence of tags within their categories, I'd like to suggest enforcing in the design (and changing some of the higher complexity techniques) to have the two main tag categories (position, motion) be mutually exclusive within themselves (ie: only one of Low, Middle, High, or Diagonal at a time, ditto for Thrust, Bash, Slash, and Lunge). May also wish to change those techniques that let you pick which tags you're granted to likewise enforce this restriction.

Actually, if you do something like that except actually enforced in the rules, then aside from the auxiliaries, you don't actually need to have techniques completely replace the tags by default, instead only overwriting whichever tag category they grant a tag to. Tags might only get cleared if you use a technique that specifically removes them (like a big finisher). Um, hmm... I'm getting conceptual ideas for a system like that that also leverages the multiple attacks per round that high BAB characters get into a sort of build-your-own-combo system (within the span of a full attack). That would require at least 4 independent tag categories, rather than 2. Don't need to worry about extra attacks, since the maximum potency (and required tags) is limited based on the strongest techniques you know, so you don't get anything super extra, just building up to another smaller combo, or to make a more powerful parry available with a full powered finisher.
Whew, there's a lot of stuff here for me to process.

So, I totally recognize the tag inconsistencies. The reason I wasn't more thorough about setting it up is that I wanted the system to feel more organic. For example, there are a lot more High tags than any other positional, because (a) you get more momentum when you're swinging a weapon with gravity rather than against it, and (b) you want to try and minimize the energy expenditure from bringing the weapon up high over and over again, so you might tend to try and stay high once you're there. Circle is the next most common, even more than the other positional, because it's really a semi-positional tag, and many techniques involve movement & turning in place. I tried to be more balanced with the motion tags (really they should be called "gesture" tags or something, I was never happy with "motion") via the styles, but even so, lunge is slightly less common than the others.

An objective benefit (besides "feel") to having the tags be less systematic, is that I can do things like have parries or stances which explicitly deal with High tags, and they're less situational because of how common High is. Etc. But I also get that it's much harder to balance the system in its current state.

If I'm going to rebuild the tag system, here's some disorganized stream of consciousness (thanks, insomnia):
  • Complexity should be directly connected with the number of required & granted tags. Basic complexity gets 1 tag required/granted, Moderate gets 2, etc. Forms sometimes grant 1 extra tag because they're special snowflakes.
  • Required position tags (RP) get converted to granted motion tags (GM), and vice versa. Auxiliary tags can go from position or motion, to position or motion. Basically: RP -> GM, GA; RM -> GP, GA; RA -> GM, GP.
  • The above notation makes me think of this in a similar way to a formal grammar, which might actually help balance this. But we don't have nonterminal symbols, so maybe not. Meh.
  • The way this would work in practice for someone with Wax techs only is: you start in a form, and your tags are 1 or 2 of (GP, GM, A). Each of your Assaults & Parries requires one tag, and goes to one of a different category. So for example, you start in Ox Lowers, which gives you Low. Then you use Wood Grouse, which goes from Low to Bash. Then you can use Ice Shatters (with the shield you were secretly holding) to go from Bash to Middle. Etc.
  • You have more options in Moderate and beyond. Ignoring Aux for the moment, a Moderate tech will need (RP, RM) and will grant (GP, GM), but theoretically, you could have a situation like Req Low -> Grant Slash and Req Slash -> Grant Low. It obfuscates the mechanics a bit, but it lets us maintain tags if it makes sense to do so.
  • Wax would probably need EVEN MOAR techniques to get full coverage, ugh. It's easier with the later styles because we can get away with segregating tag sets (that's the point of styles, after all).
  • Another COMPLETELY DIFFERENT way we could go is to restructure the tags completely. What if I had it set up like this: Position tags (Diagonal/High/Low/Middle), Gesture tags (Bash/Lunge/Slash/Thrust), Hand tags (Cleave [2H], Cradle [1H], Rend [2W], Sheath [0H]), and Motion tags (Circle/Guard/Spin/Stand). (Rend would work for holding shields too). The only problem is that that's a LOT of tags to keep track of... But we could assign complexities to the categories as well - like, Basic gets position only. Moderate gets position & gesture. Advanced adds hand, and Expert adds motion. The main problem with this is that I'd have to completely rework a number of techniques, because (for example) all the Sheathed stuff in Wax would have to get moved to Advanced. One way to go about this would be to add 6 more styles (UGH) so that each tag is showcased. So Smoke style for example would have a lot of Rend, and a mix of positions and gestures. I'm not sure I like that idea, though - it's too restrictive.

Blargh. Too much to consider. Someone weigh in and help me out here lol.

Techniques are inconsistent about the order that tags are written. I'd suggest always put position first, then motion, then aux.
I know they are. I was trying to do alphabetical, but I got mixed up in a few places and haven't bothered to fix it.

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Also, I'm working on a table for you. :)
You are awesome. And, just in time for me to completely overhaul the tag system!  (please don't kill me)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 04:05:27 AM by sirpercival »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2016, 11:06:19 AM »
Bladecraft Dice Stacking
I haven't done the math because there are people here way better at math analysis than I am, but there are only a couple of stances that grant dice (all from Clay IIRC).  Nothing else I've seen allows dice stacking.

For River of Light
I'd suggest adjusting the final paragraph to read as follows if you don't want to make extra rules (I tried to to get too deep, for example I'd consider a tentacle to fall under forelimbs but there's no need to specify that):
If you choose to remove the target's has arms or forelimbs, one of these is removed. The target cannot use that limb to hold equipment or make attacks. If you choose to remove the target's wings, one of the wings is removed, and the target cannot use its wings to fly or glide, and cannot use the severed wing to make wing attacks. Otherwise, you can choose to remove one of the target's legs, and its base land speed is halved. If the target was bipedal, it falls prone.  Only limbs that fall under one of these categories (arms/forelimbs, wings, or legs) can be targeted by this technique.

On stances and forms at the same time
Yes, it is like being a Cleric and a Wizard at the same time.  You can't cast a cleric spell and a wizard spell at the same time. :P
I'm fine with them stacking, it just struck me as odd.



It looks like I won't have to do a tags analysis, other people are already on that one.  I don't have time to consider an overhaul right now...

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2016, 01:22:27 PM »
Bladecraft Dice Stacking
I haven't done the math because there are people here way better at math analysis than I am, but there are only a couple of stances that grant dice (all from Clay IIRC).  Nothing else I've seen allows dice stacking.
Okie doke. I think BC dice can stack by default.

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For River of Light
I'd suggest adjusting the final paragraph to read as follows if you don't want to make extra rules (I tried to to get too deep, for example I'd consider a tentacle to fall under forelimbs but there's no need to specify that):
If you choose to remove the target's has arms or forelimbs, one of these is removed. The target cannot use that limb to hold equipment or make attacks. If you choose to remove the target's wings, one of the wings is removed, and the target cannot use its wings to fly or glide, and cannot use the severed wing to make wing attacks. Otherwise, you can choose to remove one of the target's legs, and its base land speed is halved. If the target was bipedal, it falls prone.  Only limbs that fall under one of these categories (arms/forelimbs, wings, or legs) can be targeted by this technique.
Ok that works. I'll incorporate this wording when I post the major overhauls.

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On stances and forms at the same time
Yes, it is like being a Cleric and a Wizard at the same time.  You can't cast a cleric spell and a wizard spell at the same time. :P
I'm fine with them stacking, it just struck me as odd.
Yeah, I get that. Lol.


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It looks like I won't have to do a tags analysis, other people are already on that one.  I don't have time to consider an overhaul right now...
Indeed.

Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2016, 01:25:37 PM »
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2016, 01:48:05 PM »
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.
Right. I'm guessing that most of the techniques I've posted won't change substantially, but they may be reorganized into different styles and/or complexities.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2016, 01:52:16 PM »
I'll pause any more reviewing until you've started posting the overhaul, no need to re-go over things more in depth when it could all change.
Right. I'm guessing that most of the techniques I've posted won't change substantially, but they may be reorganized into different styles and/or complexities.

Since I've looked at them all individually my next step would be to look at combinations and whatnot so that's definitely something to hold off on.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2016, 10:18:44 PM »
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2016, 10:51:49 PM »
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.

I agree. I also think taking down the old version is bad form.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2016, 11:09:39 PM »
Based on feedback from GitP as well, people are in favor of the complete tag restructuring (with 16 tags). So I'm working on that writeup & reorganization now.
Ugh. I think 16 is definitely too much. I have the feeling that this will lead to more defined action chains, rather than having lots of possibilities after any given action. Which goes against the idea of Blademasters being improvisational dancers.

I agree. I also think taking down the old version is bad form.

I didn't realize the old stuff was gone.  I agree, keep it around.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2016, 05:25:37 AM »
I have it saved on my computer, I just didn't want people to be confused with partially-posted stuff from different versions.

Also, I agree that 16 is too much. I'm scaling it back to 12, by taking out Diagonal, Lunge, Cradle, and Shift.
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2016, 12:20:10 PM »
Posted the new Basic styles. While the tags have been almost completely reworked, most of the old techniques haven't been edited at all (except for possibly the flavor text). A couple have had very slight edits. There are 12 new techniques as well (20 original Wax techniques + 12 to make 8 per style). I'm actually quite happy with how these worked out!

The Moderate, Advanced, and Expert techniques will not be moved into new Styles (as far as I can tell; if there are exceptions, I'll let you know), and will hopefully require a similarly minimal amount of editing. I'll need to rework all the tags, and add a completely new style at each complexity. Shouldn't take me more than a day or two - certainly by the end of the weekend it'll all be done.

Feel free to comment on the Basic stuff - if there are things I need to fix, I'd love to get them worked out before posting too much more.

I'm also going to post the original version of this stuff onto sirpercival's things, so people can use it as a resource & comparison.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2016, 01:16:11 PM »
Just to confirm before I start looking at things, the tag system itself is done being reworked even if all the tags for the styles aren't finished?

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Heron-Marked: The Art of Bladecraft
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2016, 01:35:03 PM »
Just to confirm before I start looking at things, the tag system itself is done being reworked even if all the tags for the styles aren't finished?
Yes. I'm done changing the list of tags (at least unless people think what I have now is terrible, lol), it's set at 12. The intro rules post now has the correct list. I'm also done assigning tags to the Basic techs. Of course, that's subject to editing suggestions - I mean, I didn't leave anything unfinished before I posted them.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 01:56:33 PM by sirpercival »
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