Author Topic: Discussion and Suggestions  (Read 27510 times)

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #60 on: February 29, 2016, 07:03:05 AM »
Emphasis on the "and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL". No point in summoning things with the ability to attack if they don't have a reasonable attack roll. Otherwise, you're just wasting the time of everyone at the table.

Well that was me being blind. What happens with AoOs? Does that still run into the 1 bonesting limit? Because I could see it being interpreted as voluntary attacks vs all attacks.

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Never read Libris Mortis, but that idea sounds fun.

Here's a sample. (LM 162)

Fiery Skeleton
A fiery skeleton burns with unquenchable flame. Variants of the fiery skeleton include the lightning skeleton (deals electricity damage, immunity to electricity) and the frost skeleton (deals cold damage, immunity to cold).
Attack: A fiery skeleton’s natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage.
Special Qualities: Fiery skeletons have immunity to fire, but do not have immunity to cold.
CR Adjustment: +1/2

So the boost would be something like this (first run, obviously)
Elemental Infusion
The Dead Walk (Boost) [See below]
Level: The Dead Walk 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute
Saving Throw: None
When you initiate this maneuver, choose, Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire. For the duration of this maneuver, any undead you create gain this subtype, replacing any normal elemental immunity with immunity to the chose element, and dealing 1d6 damage of the appropriate type on each of their natural attacks.

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It would need something else for 1st-level maneuvers. A boost that summons a creature to do much more than just be a flank buddy is definitely level 2 at least. You might get away with it as a 1st-level boost if it doesn't do anything on its own, but still stays around long enough for a strike like Flanking Maneuver (WR 5) or Swarming Assault (WR 7) to trigger a minor attack from it. That said, I think the strikes doing the summoning and the boosts mostly just giving bonuses is the better way to go, at least for the lower-level maneuvers.

Eh, I don't know, a CR 1/2 or 1/4 skeleton showing up for one round isn't that big a deal at 1st level. Especially a zombie with their limited actions. Especially if you use a strike that would have you give up your standard action that round, basically handing it over to the summon instead. It would be kind of interesting to see an initiator who mostly strikes from the back, avoiding being in actual melee combat and letting his minions do the work for him.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #61 on: February 29, 2016, 10:33:55 AM »
Another option for boosts would be to create special undead like in Libris Mortis. 

So a boost that has to be used when you use your create undead maneuver to add the template.

There are variant ghosts, liches, skeletons, vampires, and zombies.

Skeleton Variants
Fiery Skeleton (Strat went over that)
Nimble Skeleton (+4 Dex and gain climb speed; CR + 1/2)
Soldier Skeleton (Bonus to attack and AC for having other soldier skeletons near, Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes bonus feats; CR + 1/2)
Vicious Skeleton (More claw damage, claw rend, Imp Crit on claw; CR + 1)

Zombie Variants
Bloodthirsty Zombie (Gain bite attack, blood drain, Imp Crit bite; CR +1)
Diseased Zombie (Spreads filth fever; CR + 1/2)
Fast Zombie (Faster speed, can run, gain AC, can take a normal round's worth of actions; CR + 1/2)
Hunting Zombie (Scent, track feat, Wisdom of 14, Spot and Listen skills; CR + 1/2)
Unkillable Zombie (More HP, Fast healing; CR + 1)

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #62 on: February 29, 2016, 10:57:02 AM »
Honestly, between those different boosts (of which there are 9 right there), a few other maneuvers, and a fair bit of undead summoning strikes, that could pretty much be a discipline right away. Wouldn't be very hard to put together at least a basic run at things. Rather tempted to give it a shot sometime today, if it sounds like a good idea.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #63 on: February 29, 2016, 10:59:48 AM »
I was about to say "A necromancer based around maneuvers instead of spells, I like it!" but I obviously like the idea, that's why I'm here.   :p

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #64 on: February 29, 2016, 11:38:05 AM »
The Dead Walk

Skill: Knowledge (Religion)

Level 1 Maneuvers
  • Allegiance Eternal - Undead serve for longer and gain boosts
  • Charge of Bones - Skeleton charges chosen foe
  • Elemental Infusion - Undead gains elemental subtype
  • Sacrificial Minion - Swap position with undead creature
(click to show/hide)

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #65 on: February 29, 2016, 01:24:09 PM »
Definitely looks interesting so far.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #66 on: February 29, 2016, 01:47:14 PM »
Emphasis on the "and a bonus on attack rolls equal to your IL". No point in summoning things with the ability to attack if they don't have a reasonable attack roll. Otherwise, you're just wasting the time of everyone at the table.

Well that was me being blind. What happens with AoOs? Does that still run into the 1 bonesting limit? Because I could see it being interpreted as voluntary attacks vs all attacks.

Dunno. It's one of the things to figure out.

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Quote
Never read Libris Mortis, but that idea sounds fun.

Here's a sample. (LM 162)

Fiery Skeleton
A fiery skeleton burns with unquenchable flame. Variants of the fiery skeleton include the lightning skeleton (deals electricity damage, immunity to electricity) and the frost skeleton (deals cold damage, immunity to cold).
Attack: A fiery skeleton’s natural attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage.
Special Qualities: Fiery skeletons have immunity to fire, but do not have immunity to cold.
CR Adjustment: +1/2

So the boost would be something like this (first run, obviously)
Elemental Infusion
The Dead Walk (Boost) [See below]
Level: The Dead Walk 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute
Saving Throw: None
When you initiate this maneuver, choose, Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire. For the duration of this maneuver, any undead you create gain this subtype, replacing any normal elemental immunity with immunity to the chose element, and dealing 1d6 damage of the appropriate type on each of their natural attacks.

Terminology nitpick. Elements refer to air/earth/fire/water. It's energy you want for acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic.

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It would need something else for 1st-level maneuvers. A boost that summons a creature to do much more than just be a flank buddy is definitely level 2 at least. You might get away with it as a 1st-level boost if it doesn't do anything on its own, but still stays around long enough for a strike like Flanking Maneuver (WR 5) or Swarming Assault (WR 7) to trigger a minor attack from it. That said, I think the strikes doing the summoning and the boosts mostly just giving bonuses is the better way to go, at least for the lower-level maneuvers.

Eh, I don't know, a CR 1/2 or 1/4 skeleton showing up for one round isn't that big a deal at 1st level. Especially a zombie with their limited actions. Especially if you use a strike that would have you give up your standard action that round, basically handing it over to the summon instead. It would be kind of interesting to see an initiator who mostly strikes from the back, avoiding being in actual melee combat and letting his minions do the work for him.

Compare something that summons even the most useless of monsters for 1 round to Distracting Ember (DW boost 1). You'd get the flanking during your turn, but even without attacking the monster also provides some BFC just by occupying a space, preventing enemies from moving through it unless they spend an attack to destroy it. I'm not going to claim that Distracting Ember is some super power maneuver for its level or anything, but the baseline power level of a swift action at 1st level is really easy to overdo.

As I said, strikes are the better way to go if you want to summon something, especially at low levels.

The Dead Walk

Looks mostly good. Sacrificial Minion needs to explicitly state that the attack gets (or can get) redirected against the undead you swap places with instead of being lost entirely if you're no longer in range.

Allegiance Eternal's duration boost is too powerful with short-duration summoning maneuvers. If a stance can multiply the effects of your strikes by 2-6, it or a similar option will to be functionally mandatory. Either the summons will be too strong with 2-6 rounds of attacks and abilities and clogging up the battlefield, or they'll be too weak with only 1 round to be worth using (or both). The damage and AC bonus looks fine, though. If it was just +damage and +AC, I might even argue it to be slightly weak compared to some of the White Raven stances (+IL damage when charging, +IL/2 damage when flanking).

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #67 on: February 29, 2016, 02:52:04 PM »
Looks mostly good. Sacrificial Minion needs to explicitly state that the attack gets (or can get) redirected against the undead you swap places with instead of being lost entirely if you're no longer in range.

Allegiance Eternal's duration boost is too powerful with short-duration summoning maneuvers. If a stance can multiply the effects of your strikes by 2-6, it or a similar option will to be functionally mandatory. Either the summons will be too strong with 2-6 rounds of attacks and abilities and clogging up the battlefield, or they'll be too weak with only 1 round to be worth using (or both). The damage and AC bonus looks fine, though. If it was just +damage and +AC, I might even argue it to be slightly weak compared to some of the White Raven stances (+IL damage when charging, +IL/2 damage when flanking).

Put it into its own post, and done a little fiddling as well as adding level 2. Sacrificial Minion has extra text to deal with exactly what happens with attacks and spells. Allegiance Eternal renamed Iron Fist of Command, and changed a bit to +Atk, AC, Dam.

There's also a few later level boosts kicking around. Not entirely sure I like them. Also need to start adding in requirements once I get to higher level maneuvers.

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2016, 03:26:46 PM »
I'll hold off on comments until it's more fleshed out.

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2016, 05:41:24 PM »
I'll hold off on comments until it's more fleshed out.

It's done. Until the edits come on in, anyway.  :plotting

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2016, 07:45:45 AM »
Really thinking of swapping out the Allegiance pair as being too potentially broken. And replacing them with some bigger undead boosters. Thoughts?

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2016, 10:51:54 AM »
The Dead Walk

Of course you had to come in here and take my attention away from Garryl's homebrew.  :p

Also I see you're pimping out your weapons.

Energy Infusion has a type, says chose instead of chosen.

Sacrificial Minion should say to choose an undead within range. 

Actually, all the undead creation boosts should say that the undead permanently gain the whatever ability just for clarification.


Damn, got to go.  For reference I got to Rotten Flesh (not far I know).


Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2016, 01:44:47 PM »
Time for the rest.

Sacrificial minion didn't get the edit I advised.

Distracting burst needs a duration and you should specify that the undead is destroyed.

Swelling Corpse needs a duration.

Some of the undead creation strikes say that directing the undead is part of the strike, others don't.  You should standardize.

You should put everything in alphabetical order. :p

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2016, 02:09:03 PM »
Sacrificial Minion doesn't need it. Spells/Abilities automatically assume targets are in range. There are tons of examples in the SRD, just to start.

Distracting Burst updated.

Swelling Corpse has a duration. That's why it says "Duration: 1 Round". :bigeyes

All of the undead strikes direct the undead. Some of them are explicit, others leave it up to the initiator's choice. Depends on the strike. Limiting the actions available to the undead is part of sticking a creature into a given strike level.

It's in alphabetical order, by level. Which is how I like to sort things these days. :P

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2016, 03:01:36 PM »
Just because the SRD is poorly written doesn't mean that I think it is acceptable.  You should know that by now.  :p

As for swelling corpse, I just assumed you wrote a duration and meant permanent like with the others.

Your lack of standardization is weird, as is your organizing. :P

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2016, 03:20:37 PM »
When do the undead act? Summon Monster and the like specify that the summoned creatures act on your turn. Do you have to roll initiative for each undead you make?

Also, are the undead called, summoned, created, or what? I'm guessing that it's a creation thing, but it's ambiguous. Crumbling to dust seems to imply they were created, but some of the stances indicate summoning.

At the end, when they crumble to dust, are the undead destroyed? Does that trigger things like Death Throes and Consumptive Field? (Side note: I have the same question about dissipating Astral Constructs.)

Many of the undead-makers say the undead appears adjacent to you, but they still have a significant range that consequently seems to be unused.

Discipline the Lost can get silly with Combat Reflexes. One undead hits, enables provoking an AoO from another, who hits and enables another AoO, etc. Even if the undead themselves don't have Combat Reflexes, just having 2 undead attacking someone can provoke 4 AoOs for one of your allies.

Question: Do you control yourself? If you are undead, could you not benefit from Necrotic Frenzy and all those other maneuvers and stances that boost undead under your control? If not, do you just need to cast a Command Undead spell on yourself (which, actually, might not be a bad idea in general to better resist if someone else tries to command you)?

Most, if not all, of The Dead Walk maneuvers should be supernatural.

Just because the SRD is poorly written doesn't mean that I think it is acceptable.  You should know that by now.  :p

As for swelling corpse, I just assumed you wrote a duration and meant permanent like with the others.

Your lack of standardization is weird, as is your organizing. :P

I'm with Nanshork.

Also on that note, Dessicator's Breath's wording is weirdly in between what you'd expect from a permanent modification to undead you create and a permanent modification to undead already under your control.

Edit: Regarding organization, I can go either way, since this is an electronic medium with a search function. Sorting by level then by name makes it a little more intuitive when skimming it for the first time after reading the summaries that are also organized that way, but after that alphabetical makes it easier to find what you're looking for.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 03:25:23 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2016, 04:07:41 PM »
Quote from: Garryl
Question: Do you control yourself? If you are undead, could you not benefit from Necrotic Frenzy and all those other maneuvers and stances that boost undead under your control? If not, do you just need to cast a Command Undead spell on yourself (which, actually, might not be a bad idea in general to better resist if someone else tries to command you)?

Wait, this is a thing you can do?  I don't know how to feel about that.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2016, 04:24:58 PM »
Quote from: Garryl
Question: Do you control yourself? If you are undead, could you not benefit from Necrotic Frenzy and all those other maneuvers and stances that boost undead under your control? If not, do you just need to cast a Command Undead spell on yourself (which, actually, might not be a bad idea in general to better resist if someone else tries to command you)?

Wait, this is a thing you can do?  I don't know how to feel about that.

I seem to recall something about if multiple casters control the same creature, whoever wins an opposed check (Charisma check?) gets control for the round. So if you magically have control over yourself, you'd get said opposed check if someone manages to charm or dominate you or whatever. I can't remember where I saw it though. It might have been an FAQ, or in the Rules Compendium, or just somewhere in the SRD that I don't remember.

Edit: Found it. It's under Multiple Mental Control Effects.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:28:00 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2016, 04:29:45 PM »
Quote from: Garryl
Question: Do you control yourself? If you are undead, could you not benefit from Necrotic Frenzy and all those other maneuvers and stances that boost undead under your control? If not, do you just need to cast a Command Undead spell on yourself (which, actually, might not be a bad idea in general to better resist if someone else tries to command you)?

Wait, this is a thing you can do?  I don't know how to feel about that.

I seem to recall something about if multiple casters control the same creature, whoever wins an opposed check (Charisma check?) gets control for the round. So if you magically have control over yourself, you'd get said opposed check if someone manages to charm or dominate you or whatever. I can't remember where I saw it though. It might have been an FAQ, or in the Rules Compendium, or just somewhere in the SRD that I don't remember.

Edit: Found it. It's under Multiple Mental Control Effects.

You don't tell me what to do, I tell me what to do!

 :lmao

Offline Stratovarius

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Re: Discussion and Suggestions
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2016, 06:01:41 PM »
Changed undead to be explicitly summoned and effects to only apply to summoned undead.

All maneuvers are supernatural.

Range removed from undead who appear next to you.

Duration of permanent boosts changed to Instant.

Discipline the Lost fixed. I'd accidentally removed a line that shouldn't have been.

Few other minor clean-ups.