Author Topic: Divine Metamagic: Heighten, Minimum Caster Levels & Ability Scores for Spells  (Read 8504 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Is a Sorcerer with the Arcane Preparation feat a Prepared or Spontaneous spellcaster?
It can't be or because he never loses the ability to cast any arcane spell he knows without Preparation. But actually arguing a Sorcerer can be a prepared caster is easier than the inverse, but technically per RC Prepared Spellcasters prepare from a Spellbook which the Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation does not. Then again neither does a Wizard with Spell Mastery.  :plot

You know, Complete Arcane & Ability Scores may have been onto something when they keyed certain things to being Class-related.

I'm aware of Circle Magic and reserve feats.  I intended this character to go Hathran for Circle Magic.  I wanted to know if what I asked were RAW legal and SorO said no.
Well Circle Magic isn't DMM you do actually prepare the Spells and can apply Heighten to it so you get to that back and forth on what Heighten should count for.

But Red Wizards can't create a 20th level Fireball for 20d6 damaging Reserve Feats. Heighten it's self creates the 9th level cap and Circle Magic only gives you an exception to raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level. These are two different things. ie a Wizard 5 / Red Mage 5 has a normal maximum of 5th and Circle Magic lets him bypass that by allowing him to apply Heighten to his Cone of Cold allowing him to reach level 6 or even Heighten's cap of level 9.

Offline linklord231

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But Red Wizards can't create a 20th level Fireball for 20d6 damaging Reserve Feats. Heighten it's self creates the 9th level cap and Circle Magic only gives you an exception to raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level. These are two different things. ie a Wizard 5 / Red Mage 5 has a normal maximum of 5th and Circle Magic lets him bypass that by allowing him to apply Heighten to his Cone of Cold allowing him to reach level 6 or even Heighten's cap of level 9.

You're right.  It's odd that Circle Magic would throw in that "maximum 20th level" bit, because there's no way to get there using just Maximize, Empower, and Heighten. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline snakeman830

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But Red Wizards can't create a 20th level Fireball for 20d6 damaging Reserve Feats. Heighten it's self creates the 9th level cap and Circle Magic only gives you an exception to raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level. These are two different things. ie a Wizard 5 / Red Mage 5 has a normal maximum of 5th and Circle Magic lets him bypass that by allowing him to apply Heighten to his Cone of Cold allowing him to reach level 6 or even Heighten's cap of level 9.

You're right.  It's odd that Circle Magic would throw in that "maximum 20th level" bit, because there's no way to get there using just Maximize, Empower, and Heighten.
Accounting for Epic levels, maybe?  I know Circle Magic has ties to Forgotten Realms where Epic characters are practically an everyday occurrence.
"When life gives you lemons, fire them back at high velocity."

Offline SorO_Lost

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Accounting for Epic levels, maybe?  I know Circle Magic has ties to Forgotten Realms where Epic characters are practically an everyday occurrence.
Probably. The DMG's entry comes from the 3.0 FR book and they are pretty high level. Like on a quick glance the Red Wizard Organization entry and five out of eight "Zulkir" leaders are in the Epic range.

Offline linklord231

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But Red Wizards can't create a 20th level Fireball for 20d6 damaging Reserve Feats. Heighten it's self creates the 9th level cap and Circle Magic only gives you an exception to raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level. These are two different things. ie a Wizard 5 / Red Mage 5 has a normal maximum of 5th and Circle Magic lets him bypass that by allowing him to apply Heighten to his Cone of Cold allowing him to reach level 6 or even Heighten's cap of level 9.

You're right.  It's odd that Circle Magic would throw in that "maximum 20th level" bit, because there's no way to get there using just Maximize, Empower, and Heighten.
Accounting for Epic levels, maybe?  I know Circle Magic has ties to Forgotten Realms where Epic characters are practically an everyday occurrence.

I checked before posting that, and there's a separate "Improved Heighten Spell" Epic Metamagic feat that explicitly is for heightening beyond 9th level. 

I wonder if it's a copy+paste from 3.0, where you could apply the same metamagic feat multiple times.  So you could Heighten to 9, Maximize to 12, then Empower a couple times to get to 20.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Endarire

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In the 3.5 Red Wizard entry, I just assumed you could use Circle Magic to Heighten spells to level 20 due to how things are worded.  It is a specific exception.

Offline SorO_Lost

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In the 3.5 Red Wizard entry, I just assumed you could use Circle Magic to Heighten spells to level 20 due to how things are worded.  It is a specific exception.
Yeah but we know how assume goes. It just lets you apply one feat even if the resulting spell would exceed your normal limit, claiming that the beside cap of 20 somehow changes the entire entry to mean it specifically override Heighten's limit is nothing more than an incorrect statement based on a person's attempt to justify "why '20'?" using less than half the pieces of the puzzle. The why could simply be a typo, a cover our ass kind of deal, it could be they really liked 18 but the editor rounded it to 20, or more likely since it's copypasta from FR where everyone from a book is post-epic and the lowest Red Mage leader is lv19 the real reason is probably closer to noting a number past ten to let you know most of the characters in the world could Empower Time Stop even through Spell Levels stop at 9 (outside of specifically taking epic spell capacity, or you know using circle magic). I can't give you the true reason on why, but I can present to you Occam's Razor.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 01:20:10 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Chemus

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I disagree, SorO:
Quote from: DMG p.194 "Circle Magic"
...even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader’s normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

The 'normal maximum spell level' is the specific vs. general part.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Quote from: Basic English
apostrophe (a·pos·tro·phe)
noun: apostrophe; plural noun: apostrophes
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even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leaders normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

I really don't know how you got the message that it's specifically ignoring Heighten's limit, but then again I also don't know why you thought you could focus on three words to make a point with me. Eh w/e. Some days you just need to start over right?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 05:28:19 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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I disagree, SorO:
Quote from: DMG p.194 "Circle Magic"
...even if he does not know the feat or if the addition of the feat would raise the spell level past the circle leader’s normal maximum spell level (maximum spell level 20th).

The 'normal maximum spell level' is the specific vs. general part.

SorO's being kind of an ass about it, but he's right.  It very explicitly lets you exceed your limit on maximum spell level, but Heighten has its own limits which are not bypassed.  A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 could use Circle Magic to Heighten a spell to 9, but not to 11 because Heighten doesn't go to 11. 

If they had phrased it as "...raise the spell level past the circle leader's normal maximum spell level..."  that would be ambiguous enough to work. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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SorO's being kind of an ass about it, but he's right.
Kind of?
Well, I was trying to be nicer in a post edit so I guess kind of is a realistic goal for me.

Offline Chemus

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Regarding circle leader's maximum spell level, but not Heighten's max spell level: Fair enough. The max spell level, even including epic, is 9th then (with Extend and Empower having no effect on spell level, but spell only slot), as the ability specifically fails to mention any feats other than Empower, Extend and Heighten. That's too bad; it limits the ability to make spells nigh irresistible.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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That's too bad; it limits the ability to make spells nigh irresistible.
You can kind of do that anyway. Divines can use Consumptive Field & Owl's Insight to really crank their Wisdom up and Charisma can use different Spell-based buffs, like Dragon's Ability Enhancer & Fell Power helps you reach 70s on a Necropoliton Sorcerer / Prestige Bard, and don't forget there are plenty of Spells that ignore Saves to begin with.

Offline ketaro

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Irresistible Spell metamagic :v
No save on spells until your DM discovers the errata and nerfs you to +10 :p

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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I want to actually cast a level 1 Cleric spell I've Heightened to spell level 9 via Divine Metamagic: Heighten.
You can't for several reasons

1) Heighten has no set cost. DMM requires a cost to pay off, since heighten doesn't have that, it can't pay it.
2) Even if Heighten had a +1 only cost or whatever, heighten only applies if you've already got a higher slot that you then want to get normal 1:1 efficiency out of rather than using a higher than necessary slot to cast a lower integer value spell. If you haven't climbed up to the first part, heighten can't help you get there any more or less efficiently.

The only reason heighten exists is to provide a feat tax to the sorcerer saying "I'm all out of 1st level slot. Can't I just use a 2nd level slot?" and then giving a pouty face when that 1st level spell in a 2nd level slot isn't automatically considered 2nd level.