Barbarian + Occult Build Help [5e]

[Necrosnoop110]

Musts

• 5th Edition
• Half-Orc
• Non-Evil (Good or Neutral ok)

Wants

• Mostly big raging bruiser aka standard barbarian deal
• Twist of the occult (minor spell use/undead control/creation)
• Huge intimidation score
• Thematically going for a Hellboy concept (aka someone who by all rights should have been evil but was steered clear)

Comments: I did notice SorO_Lost's amazing The Lost Lord build but I want less monk, more barbarian, and non-evil. Can you summon/create undead without being evil in 5e? Sorry away from books. Barbarian/Paladin + Ritual Caster Feat? Barbarian/Warlock? Barbarian/Cleric? Will post a fuller build as I get closer to show time but just wanted to open things up to general thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks,
Necro

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Can you summon/create undead without being evil in 5e?
Absolutely. 
There's only 1 sentence per alignment, which
is plenty of room, to make ends-justify-the-means
because my deity says so, argument.


Oathbreaker Paladin 15 / Undying Warlock 5
is most likely the max undead related build.
But if you step back from having both of the
OPally 3 and Animate Dead, to just 1 of those,
your options go way up.

That said, capping Barb or Pally at level 3
reduces a lot of overlap. 
Pally 1 gets you Heavy Armor, reducing MAD.

[linklord231]

As far as I can tell, only Oathbreaker Paladins, Clerics, and Wizards get access to Animate Dead.  How important is that particular aspect to you? 

If you don't care about it all that much, I'd suggest going Zealot Barbarian 6/Rune Scribe the rest.  Maybe Cleric or Warlock if you have time left in the campaign after you finish Rune Scribe and want more stuff to do with your spell slots. 

[TenaciousJ]

If you can swing the Charisma for it, Lore Bard 6 would get you access to Animate Dead and would give you expertise for Intimidate to push that as high as possible.  Cutting Words can help you get some roleplayed intimidation into combat as well.  Shout down your enemies' attacks or glare them into submission.  You might also be able to swing Find Steed as a magical secret to summon a warhorse with a skeletal appearance.

[vaz]

Fiend Blade Lock, fluffed as Orcus. Create Undead, Finger of Death, Dominate Monster, True Polymorph. Go as deep as you want.

Armour of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, Vampiric Touch etc. Find Familiar from Magical Training.

Does it have to rage, or can it be Pseudo? Dark One's Blessing, Fiendish Resilience, etc.

[Necrosnoop110]

Fiend Blade Lock, fluffed as Orcus. Create Undead, Finger of Death, Dominate Monster, True Polymorph. Go as deep as you want.

Armour of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, Vampiric Touch etc. Find Familiar from Magical Training.

Does it have to rage, or can it be Pseudo? Dark One's Blessing, Fiendish Resilience, etc.

I love the warlock idea. But does it have enough nitro? I want to be the giant bruiser rushing headlong into combat and smashing down doors.

Thoughts on Barbarian 1/ Warlock 19? 

[TenaciousJ]

Barbarian/caster can be a bit rough because you can't cast or maintain concentration while raging.  Pick a good selection of no-concentration spells.  Armor of Agathys can get pretty nasty if you pre-cast it and then rage so the spell lasts longer and deals more retributive damage.  Similarly Fire Shield is available from a fiend patron.

Outside of your 2 rages per day you're a blade warlock with medium armor or unarmored defense if you can have high Strength, Constitution, Charisma, and a positive Dexterity.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Zardnaar has a Fighter 1 / Bladelock 19 guide at ENWorld.
Mellored has the most recent Warlock guide over there.

Tome and Green Flame Blade is better, maybe fluff too.
You can make it work, it wont be Shadowcraft Mage level.

Barb Rage + lots of spell slots + Pally Smite, is basically
the only usual use of spells while raging.

iirc the first UA was about Dragonmarks, and if you aren't
an Eberron "fundamentalist", one of those might work.
(I don't think we ever discussed those around here wtf)
Cantrip and 1st level spell and 2nd level spell, rolling in.

edit --- there was some discussion of the article, just not the dmarks.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/unearthed-arcana-eberron

[vaz]

Fiend Blade Lock, fluffed as Orcus. Create Undead, Finger of Death, Dominate Monster, True Polymorph. Go as deep as you want.

Armour of Agathys, Arms of Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, Vampiric Touch etc. Find Familiar from Magical Training.

Does it have to rage, or can it be Pseudo? Dark One's Blessing, Fiendish Resilience, etc.

I love the warlock idea. But does it have enough nitro? I want to be the giant bruiser rushing headlong into combat and smashing down doors.

Thoughts on Barbarian 1/ Warlock 19?

Being unable to concentrate while raging means that it's struggling a bit.

What about Paladin 3/Warlock 17 variant Human, with Magic Initiate for Druid, Shillelagh, Guidance and Goodberry. Your Spellslots refresh after a short rest, and you can power Divine Smite if you need to deal more damage. You get 15HP to heal yourself (+12HP via Goodberry). You can concentrate on Hex, and your spellslots are always at maximum level for +5D6. Hex deals additional damage per hit while Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker make it a bit more damaging. Sacred Weapon gives you +Cha to attack rolls.

You're looking at +Cha to Attack, with +Wis and +Cha to damage. You have +23 HP from Dark One's Blessing and can heal 27 HP on top of that. Pumped Charisma, access to Beguiling Influence gives you Deception and Persuasion, Intimidation and Insight from Paladin, and with a Courtier Background you can pick up any two other skills that you feel appropriate to the campaign.

[Necrosnoop110]

What about Half-Orc Paladin 6/Warlock 1/Sorcerer 13?

[vaz]

The downsides to that are that you don't get any Invocations (no Cha to damage, and no attacking with Pact weapon twice), and Dark One's Blessing suffers (it is based on your Warlock level). You'd also sacrifice having some ranged utility, in that you can't Agonizing Blast your Eldritch Blast (+Cha damage Eldritch blast) until you take Warlock 5, Devil's Sight gives you 120ft vision in Magical/Non-magical darkness, which is very useful.

I mean, it's much of a muchness, really. I know Sorcerer 13 gives you a 7th level spell, but if you're goal is to hit things hard, what is it about 7th level that is good? For an "occult" feeling, maybe Finger of Death 1/long rest? Teleport for utility? But honestly? Given the role, Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4/Warlock 2/Sorcerer +8 means it can hit even harder in combat.

+Cha to hit, (+Wis and 2xCha) to damage with a Dragon, and it kicks off doing that at level 10.

[Necrosnoop110]

The downsides to that are that you don't get any Invocations (no Cha to damage, and no attacking with Pact weapon twice), and Dark One's Blessing suffers (it is based on your Warlock level). You'd also sacrifice having some ranged utility, in that you can't Agonizing Blast your Eldritch Blast (+Cha damage Eldritch blast) until you take Warlock 5, Devil's Sight gives you 120ft vision in Magical/Non-magical darkness, which is very useful.

I mean, it's much of a muchness, really. I know Sorcerer 13 gives you a 7th level spell, but if you're goal is to hit things hard, what is it about 7th level that is good? For an "occult" feeling, maybe Finger of Death 1/long rest? Teleport for utility? But honestly? Given the role, Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4/Warlock 2/Sorcerer +8 means it can hit even harder in combat.

+Cha to hit, (+Wis and 2xCha) to damage with a Dragon, and it kicks off doing that at level 10.

Is Half-Orc Paladin 6/Sorcerer 4/Warlock 2/Sorcerer +8 a build that you would recommend?

[vaz]

It's a build I'd play, perhaps from Level 12+, when I had access to the Warlock Invocations to give you 4 attacks in combat, each one with +Cha to hit and +Wis+2xCha Damage.

[Necrosnoop110]

We'll be starting at 4th level and likely reaching 15th.

What about Paladin 6/Warlock 14?

[TenaciousJ]

I have a player currently on the Paladin 6/Warlock 14 track.  It's a much more offensive build than single-classed Paladin because of the pact magic slots interaction with divine smite.  Thematically it may be difficult to match up certain paladin types with certain patrons.  Fiend can be difficult to justify unless you're using Oathbreaker or Oath of Vengeance.  Oath of Vengeance's Channel Divinity: Vow of Enmity matches up well with the idea of raging at a particular enemy, and it's a short rest ability.  Oathbreaker's Channel Divinity options either let you control undead or have a combat-usable intimidate.  Oathbreaker requires an evil alignment though unless the DM is willing to waive it.  Vengeance has no such restriction.

Currently the player is level 13 at Paladin 6/Warlock 7.  He rarely fails any saving throws except Dexterity due to his ability score spread.  He's fairly tough from his armor options and his high saving throws, and he can be painful for enemies to actually hit.

The talk about Shillelagh in some of these builds is confusing as hell.  I'm not certain why you'd take Magic Initiate: Druid for that using Wisdom when you could go Tome Warlock and get Shillelagh based on Charisma.  Trying to get Druid-based Shillelagh on there means you're trying to balance 13 Strength with reasonable Constitution, high Wisdom, and high Charisma.  You're already getting Extra Attack from Paladin 6, so you're only losing out on Lifedrinker if you go Tome. Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra attack, and Lifedrinker won't be available unless your campaign gets to level 18.  In exchange, you can reduce your attribute dependency to just Charisma and the 13 Strength necessary to multiclass Paladin if you're willing to use a staff or club as your weapon, and you can use a shield with either of those weapons to be a bit tougher.  Using a quarterstaff opens up Polearm Master as a possibility to have a reliable 3rd attack if you have room for it.  Tome gets you the opportunity to take some rituals, as alluded to earlier in this thread.

[vaz]

It seems on a bit more research I've completely misunderstood some of the rules, coming from a flawed teacher. Please ignore my advice as it's incorrect up against the RAW.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Paladin 2 / Warlock 2 is quite tasty,
then probably Paladin +4 / Warlock +X.
Only "real" problem numbers wise, is
over relying on EB+Hex from level 5 to 7.
But then there's Green Flame Blade.

Warlock 2 / X , is still an (annoyingly)
easy index kiter build.  You do what
you want to do, and you're good at a
specific normal thing, over and over.


Paladin of Nerull , can Barb things up.