Author Topic: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?  (Read 27043 times)

Offline littha

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2013, 02:43:17 AM »
Well women deal with pain better in some studies... more Hp?

I would love to see those studies because as far as I am aware the current scientific consensus is that women are significantly worse at dealing with pain (partially) due to having more pain receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12651996
http://www.everydayhealth.com/pain-management/women-and-chronic-pain.aspx
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1547-5069.1995.tb00865.x/abstract;jsessionid=EE33EF0104B365764BD45A2744981C98.d03t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/11203754/reload=0;jsessionid=QW4Pyq42HdgUIP3uNwwU.28

Again, I wouldn't do anything with this information in a game but I really dislike that particular claim because people bring it up a lot and then then back it up with "because studies say so" which to me is a direct assault on scientific methodology.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 02:48:25 AM by littha »

Offline veekie

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2013, 02:59:24 AM »
Overall I'd say it's not a dealbreaker in it's own right(since you could always not play a given gender),  but is a strong sign of the DM being trouble down the line as it is a red flag for false realism(where by making it 'realistic' it becomes unrealistic) and sexist issues. It's a slippery slope from there for both.
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2013, 03:18:56 AM »
He's the kind of DM I'm talking about.
I used to be that guy.  Then I actually met a few women.  Some of them I'm on good terms with, others I'm certain are the banshee queens of hell.  In either case, I don't really think of them as being that kind of helpless, anymore.

Offline bhu

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2013, 03:52:56 AM »
Does this DM feel shame?  Does he embarrass publicly?  :smirk

If he does tell him "I'd like a +2 Con for playing a black man, they're proven to be better long distance runners.  Oh and since we're using outdated stereotypes I'd also like him to be called Nigger Jim."

If that doesn't get the point across, you may as well just walk away.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 03:54:54 AM by bhu »

Offline Yirrare

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2013, 05:48:03 AM »
I would have some serious problems with playing at a table like this. The DM/GM would have to present some really good reasons why he imposed the difference between sexes. Realism would not count as a good explanation, for reasons many here have pointed out. I also agree that this is likely a warning flag of a sexist and possibly a bigot.
Further, I would likely be tempted to challenge his idea of the binarity of genders.

Speaking of strength though, wasn't there a woman in the last olympics who lifted more than men have for her weightclass? (I know close to nothing about sports, since I have no interest in it. But I recall it reported on the radio.)

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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2013, 05:49:13 AM »
Does this DM feel shame?  Does he embarrass publicly?  :smirk

If he does tell him "I'd like a +2 Con for playing a black man, they're proven to be better long distance runners.  Oh and since we're using outdated stereotypes I'd also like him to be called Nigger Jim."

If that doesn't get the point across, you may as well just walk away.
Only if you take a -2 INT   :hide

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2013, 06:26:00 AM »
Further, I would likely be tempted to challenge his idea of the binarity of genders.

Speaking of strength though, wasn't there a woman in the last olympics who lifted more than men have for her weightclass? (I know close to nothing about sports, since I have no interest in it. But I recall it reported on the radio.)

I don't remember hearing anything about that, however the bigger point is that the olympics have gender divisions for a reason. Human males are genetically predisposed to develop higher muscle mass because they're expected to physically compete against other human males in order to atract female attention. The world records for brute strength feats are all in the hands of males.

HOWEVER women not only live longer but they're also more resistant to disease, fatigue and exhaustion (check out the statitics, human males get sick and die of sickness more frequently than human females at all age categories). Again an evolutionary necessity because women need to get pregnant at multiple point of their lifes to keep the species going. And pregnancy is a very draining process on the mother. It takes a very healthy person to carry a pregnancy all the way trough.

So basically if women were geting -2 Str, men should be geting -2 Con (or perhaps just -1 on both stats, or instead men geting +1/+2 Str and women get +1/+2 Con). Of course that would also mean that the only males are melee dudes that actually need Str, and every other character is a female that doesn't mind dumping Str in return for some extra juicy Con.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 07:37:27 AM »
I guess the logical way out if the DM wants to stick with it but otherwise isn't that bad is an extremely feminine crossdresser.

Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 08:31:33 AM »
Yes, lets impose a "sense of realism" on a game and system where things like a score of 18 (or even higher) can be achieved and you can be more physically strong/agile/durable/intelligent/wizened/persuasive than most any other member of your species by a long shot.

Even as any sort of "realism" those house rules make no sense, and that is including everything - regardless if the game was toned down to actual medieval levels and had a lot of concepts rebuilt around reality - and I do mean everything. I could realistically see someone who was doing a very "down to earth" medieval game that women would have non-statistic related penalties (as would most everything else in the world, mind you) and issues crop up roleplaying wise, but even then... Really?

Especially for the heroes (or villains, if appropriate), just why? Isn't the point of being a hero - in part - to be more than everyone else, or else everyone would be heroes?

What about other species? Most likely this is ruled out in a medieval campaign (you're all playing humans most likely), but even then, it begs the questions about monsters, unless there are none.

Why specifically stop at 16? That's still pretty arbitrary. Just so even if they would have had an 18 in a score (if they were a male) you can ensure they're still inferior by that little bit? If you're going to go that far with arbitrary rules, why stop there?

If there's magic in the world and that's acceptable (or even acknowledged) in your "realism" how is that less foreign or impossible to believe/understand/rationalize than a woman being superhumanly strong? Why can't she even just result to the "a Wizard did it" excuse to explain why she's stronger than 90% the party or something absurd? (Again, even then, that's still a crazy excuse - she shouldn't have to do that just to play a character of her gender, or in the case of a male, play his character of an opposite gender.)

Too many questions - no answers to any of them that I like.

Just a bad, bad sign as mentioned previously by others.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 08:34:43 AM by Argent Fatalis »

Offline Kasz

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 08:50:15 AM »
I'd tell that DM to stop being such an asshole.

Even if it's not malicious, even if he thinks he's just doing the "right" and "realistic" thing.

Could you imagine if like, a year later he meets the girl of his dreams and they actually hit it off. She's into D&D and if the game's dead but someone tells her the story. "Oh god, remember that campaign you ran a while back DM? The one where women couldn't be anything but Bards, Sorcerers and Rogues? The one with the strength cap for women?"

Yeah, She's going to really love hearing that.

Or god forbid the game is still running and she joins, telling her what she can't do because she's just a woman, just a weaker than her male counterpart for no reason woman... that'll go down well.

It'd probably take all that to realise how sexist he's being.

Try and tell this woman she isn't as strong as Conan.


I know you guys are talking about female weightlifters etc. and it's not a bad place to take the conversation...but the 16 Before racial modifiers would also apply to other races such as Half Orcs, Dwarves and whatnot. Meaning they are potentially 2 below always. How do we know those races are the same... female dwarves/halforcs might be stronger than their male counterpart. Hell, elves don't really rely on muscle bulk do they?

In nature a lot of females are bigger, stronger and meaner than their male counterpart. See the Angler fish, Black widow spider and praying mantis for extreme examples.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2013, 08:59:51 AM »
Neither of which are mammals.

Orcs and dwarf females still have to go trough pregnancy to reproduce last time I checked.

Now your argument would make more sense if it was some kind of insectoid or reptile race whose females lay eggs.

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2013, 09:03:41 AM »
I was thinking about houseruling some penalties/bonuses for females once... but it wasn't for realism.
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Offline Argent Fatalis

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2013, 09:04:50 AM »
Neither of which are mammals.

Orcs and dwarf females still have to go trough pregnancy to reproduce last time I checked.

Now your argument would make more sense if it was some kind of insectoid or reptile race whose females lay eggs.

True, they might not be mammals, but we don't have much "scientific" information to go off of for fantasy races in 3.5e as far as which gender is stronger in some case unless its written specifically into the fluff or stats; I would not in the slightest be surprised if one gender had physical superiority (or even mental) over another though, especially in some obscure book which isn't WotC.

I'm no expert on any version, but nothing immediately comes to mind that says "almost every male of X species is stronger than the female" as far as races go given the above.

Offline ImperatorK

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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2013, 09:18:08 AM »
Well, ironically enough official D&D Drow fluff states that their females are all around superior to their male counterparts, but crunch-wise they have pretty much the same stats, just with drow females having cleric as favored class while male drows have wizard as favored class.

And then we have Drizzit, a drow male that is taller, stronger and faster than basically every other drow out there, when the fluff had been pointing for drow males to be overall smaller and weaker than their female counterparts, leading to their infamous matriarch society.

But you're right that for most D&D races out there, there's no diference in either fluff or crunch showcasing any gender diference (neither official pregnancy rules, plus people in this forum have staunchly supported that humanoids actually reproduce asexually).

EDIT: There's also the Hathran Forgotten Realms prc that can be taken only by females.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 09:20:32 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2013, 11:21:39 AM »
I would get the hell out. It's a serious red flag.
...
... okay, I'll bite. Humanoids reproduce asexually? :huh By polymorph any object or something? Ice assassin (simulacrum is a bit too degenerate)? Alter Reality-stabilized fission power?

Offline Amechra

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2013, 11:47:51 AM »
This actually gave me an idea for a (tongue in cheek) BBEG; a mighty and highly sexist archmage who is working a potent spell that forces the world to conform to his viewpoint.

Can you stop him before he warps the very physical laws to be really damn sexist?

(One of the countries has already fallen under his curse. Alright, ladies, for entering the country, you take a -2 penalty to your Strength, and this list of other conditions and restrictions. A simple Protection from Evil will keep you safe.)

How fast do you think the players would want to kick that guy's ass six ways to Sunday?
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Offline veekie

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2013, 12:06:22 PM »
I would get the hell out. It's a serious red flag.
...
... okay, I'll bite. Humanoids reproduce asexually? :huh By polymorph any object or something? Ice assassin (simulacrum is a bit too degenerate)? Alter Reality-stabilized fission power?
It was one of the sillier spinoffs about crafting masterwork unarmed strikes.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2013, 12:11:40 PM »
Don't forget giving them a Rage ability of a 20th level Barbarian when it's that time of the month.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: Would you tolerate a DM who places Strength caps on female characters?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2013, 02:00:27 PM »
Yes, lets impose a "sense of realism" on a game and system where things like a score of 18 (or even higher) can be achieved and you can be more physically strong/agile/durable/intelligent/wizened/persuasive than most any other member of your species by a long shot.

Even as any sort of "realism" those house rules make no sense, and that is including everything - regardless if the game was toned down to actual medieval levels and had a lot of concepts rebuilt around reality - and I do mean everything. I could realistically see someone who was doing a very "down to earth" medieval game that women would have non-statistic related penalties (as would most everything else in the world, mind you) and issues crop up roleplaying wise, but even then... Really?

Notice how these folks never think that far?  It's never about "realism," even if they say it is.