Author Topic: The Politics Thread v3  (Read 96025 times)

Offline altpersona

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2000
  • #78
    • View Profile
    • You are here
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #400 on: November 11, 2016, 10:38:54 AM »
OK Chemus, thanks for answering. I don't agree with you even a little bit, but I appreciate you answering.

this
The goal of power is power. - 1984
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow
The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga still sux.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #401 on: November 11, 2016, 10:45:14 AM »
I'm with ketaro, I can't engage anymore except to finish what I started. 

Chemus, just fyi, enforcing your definition of marriage on other people is a shitty thing to do, especially when marriage is just a legal construct and has nothing to do with religion or anything else.  That's not equal rights for everyone which you stated that you want in the first place.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #402 on: November 11, 2016, 11:42:26 AM »
Quote
Quote
As it is now (and has been for decades and decades) the hospital is required to see the person and prevent them from dying.  This prevents places from only accepting the wealthy, and overall improves QOF for everyone in the nation (everyone being the statistical majority).
I don't know the QOF acronym. But I'm a capitalist; I ain't rich at all, but 'pay your own way' is what I do for healthcare. If you can't, do your best to find a group or individual willing to help, or take a loan. Life. Ain't. Fair. We can't make it so with laws.

It can be made more fair than it is. If you don't have much in the first place, you're losing more just from being hospitalised and unable to work in the first place. Compounding that with long-term unaffordable costs and all the threats that come with missing payments or refusing to pay? You can use laws to stop people being doubly punished for sheer bad luck. And if whatever got you hospitalised costs you your job and you don't have a chance of doing that? What then? Give up and die an entirely preventable death because of random circumstance? Things might not be perfect, but you can at least restrict the chances of these things happening.

There's no way that charities could manage to keep up with it. Doubly so for those that would lose government funding. And nobody's going to naively assume that if taxes weren't directed towards social safety nets, people will donate more.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #403 on: November 11, 2016, 12:31:59 PM »
Nanshork, I never said 'I don't want them to marry', I said:
Quote
Regarding the celebration of non-heterosexual relationships, I say why? I don't care if they want to marry, but just like old people (re)marrying, I see no purpose in it...
and
Quote
Many, not all, of the benefits, rights, and responsibilities are, or were originally, to support children, via their mothers, if the fathers died or if the family split...
(emphasis added)
When SirP asked. SirP also asked about climate change, I didn't volunteer. These are not reasons why I usually support (R) candidates.

I vote for the folks who I think might reduce the power of government, especially the Federal government. Could I be wrong as to who they are, and as to the benefit of that? Hell yes.

Solo, if BLM wanted to hold police accountable, and if MSM did, they'd not focus on the fact that ~150 black men died by being shot by police this year, but that 450+ people died that way. MSM only releases info locally when someone not black gets shot, and in the AP stories I've read, if a person who is black commits a crime with a gun, no race is given or it's buried in the story, but the reverse happens with whites. I think that they want something else.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:47:23 PM by Chemus »
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13393
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #404 on: November 11, 2016, 12:34:17 PM »
Yeah, I'm done.  If you don't see the problem I'm not interested in getting into it anymore.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #405 on: November 11, 2016, 02:06:13 PM »
Nanshork, I never said 'I don't want them to marry', I said:
Quote
Regarding the celebration of non-heterosexual relationships, I say why? I don't care if they want to marry, but just like old people (re)marrying, I see no purpose in it...
and
Quote
Many, not all, of the benefits, rights, and responsibilities are, or were originally, to support children, via their mothers, if the fathers died or if the family split...
(emphasis added)

How next of kin works, visitation rights of all forms, restrictions on wills, inheritance otherwise, details about financial accounts, what happens when raising children and they split, who can adopt...

It's a case of "rewrite every law and rule across state lines to prevent discrimination on the basis of sexuality where relationships are involved" or "let people marry regardless of sexuality and therefore solve the problem in one go". Same reason old people can benefit from marriage.

It doesn't matter if you agree with the laws in place, surely you can see why there's more to it than simply having children?

Quote
Solo, if BLM wanted to hold police accountable, and if MSM did, they'd not focus on the fact that ~150 black men died by being shot by police this year, but that 450+ people died that way. MSM only releases info locally when someone not black gets shot, and in the AP stories I've read, if a person who is black commits a crime with a gun, no race is given or it's buried in the story, but the reverse happens with whites. I think that they want something else.

If 1/3 of the population was black, that would be expected. Since it's not, there's an issue somewhere.

Offline phaedrusxy

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10708
  • The iconic spambot
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #406 on: November 11, 2016, 04:01:16 PM »
Do you see no purpose in someone who's infertile getting married?  Why is marriage intertwined with having children in your opinon?

To me marriage is to create a family. That includes progeny. Many, not all, of the benefits, rights, and responsibilities are, or were originally, to support children, via their mothers, if the fathers died or if the family split. Alimony in childless couples is definitely not compatible with sexual equality; each member of the former family is an adult and supposedly takes care of their self.
But it is about a lot more than that legally, in the US, and this not a matter of opinion. Being married opens up a lot of very beneficial doors which include being able to be on your spouse's insurance plan, hospital visitation rights, joint tax returns, end-of-life decision making, inheritance taxes, etc. Not allowing homosexuals to marry is denying them equal protection and rights under the law.

And allowing them to marry has absolutely no negative impact on anyone. So it's a no brainer. I don't know how anyone arguing against this has a legal or moral leg to stand on.
I don't pee messages into the snow often , but when I do , it's in Cyrillic with Fake Viagra.  Stay frosty my friends.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #407 on: November 11, 2016, 04:24:02 PM »
Chemus --- as a late aside, at a detail from 2 pages back ...
some the most stringent criticism of Trump came from explicitly
Christian backgrounds.  Romney was a leader of the Not Trumps
and couched it in mostly Biblical language.  And the Liberty U
student body voted against Jerry Falwell Jr 's endorsement.
The margin was quite huge, 90 for out of a 15000 campus.
They couched their opposition in only  Christian language.

**

I noticed this ---> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/%E2%80%98prediction-professor%E2%80%99-who-called-trump%E2%80%99s-big-win-also-made-another-forecast-trump-will-be-impeached/ar-AAkbsjd?li=BBnb7Kz
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16055
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #408 on: November 11, 2016, 10:40:41 PM »
Well, Trump erased the muslim ban and leaving the Paric Climate treaty from his website, and he publicly walked back complete repeal of Obamacare insisting there are parts that need to be kept.

My conservative friends are now howling for his blood on FB.  He literally went from being the second coming of jesus to the devil within an hour.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #409 on: November 11, 2016, 10:44:04 PM »
Well, Trump erased the muslim ban and leaving the Paric Climate treaty from his website, and he publicly walked back complete repeal of Obamacare insisting there are parts that need to be kept.

My conservative friends are now howling for his blood on FB.  He literally went from being the second coming of jesus to the devil within an hour.

He supported the democrats for years, was never in politics to establish a record, and contradicted himself every other week during the campaigns and this surprised them?

Offline bhu

  • Uncle Kittie
  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 16055
  • Fnord bitches
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #410 on: November 11, 2016, 10:46:55 PM »
yup

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #411 on: November 11, 2016, 10:49:44 PM »
Full points for having the foresight of a mayfly to them, then.

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #412 on: November 11, 2016, 11:26:11 PM »
...as a late aside, at a detail from 2 pages back ...
some the most stringent criticism of Trump came from explicitly
Christian backgrounds...

So? That just means that perhaps my party is moving away from being the 'religious right' to being right-wing. Again, I'm not religious.

Nanshork, Pxy, I'm not arguing against gay marriage. I don't care about gay marriage either way, being neither gay, pro-gay nor anti-gay. Yes marriage has crap tied to it that have to do with tying people together as a family. My view of marriage is as a commitment whose purpose is to make solid families for kids to be socialized and educated in. So the point of non-breeding marriage is lost on me. And as I said before, the money stuff is anachronistic if men and women, indeed all adults, are equal; they were there so the woman, and any kids, could retain some income after the bread-winner left/died. Only in the case of kids being included do they have any modern relevance.

Ranieh, that supposes that the reason that more kids who are black are getting shot because the cops are racist or afraid of them. With roughly half of incarcerated violent offenders being people who're black, perhaps the kids are just encountering the police that much more often, thus increasing their risk. What I mean is that presuming a person being stopped by police has a certain percentage chance to get shot, if some people encounter police more frequently, their risk increases. This argument presumes that the majority of incarcerated people are indeed guilty of the crime they're in for.

Regarding Trump's flips, if this is correct then I'm disappointed, but unsurprised. Time will tell what actually transpires. I recall a few campaign promises of other presidents. Not a lot of follow through there either.
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #413 on: November 11, 2016, 11:40:09 PM »
Nanshork, Pxy, I'm not arguing against gay marriage. I don't care about gay marriage either way, being neither gay, pro-gay nor anti-gay. Yes marriage has crap tied to it that have to do with tying people together as a family. My view of marriage is as a commitment whose purpose is to make solid families for kids to be socialized and educated in. So the point of non-breeding marriage is lost on me. And as I said before, the money stuff is anachronistic if men and women, indeed all adults, are equal; they were there so the woman, and any kids, could retain some income after the bread-winner left/died. Only in the case of kids being included do they have any modern relevance.

Then you're saying "I don't get it" because you're applying your idea of what marriage is (and why that necessarily requires fertile men and women to exist is another question--science hasn't stopped, nor has any form of adoption or parental death) to what it actually works as. It makes perfect sense when viewed through a lens of what is.

Honestly, your view of marriage seems pretty vacuous. I can't think of any point in recorded history marriage has been that simplisic.

Quote
Ranieh, that supposes that the reason that more kids who are black are getting shot because the cops are racist or afraid of them. With roughly half of incarcerated violent offenders being people who're black, perhaps the kids are just encountering the police that much more often, thus increasing their risk. What I mean is that presuming a person being stopped by police has a certain percentage chance to get shot, if some people encounter police more frequently, their risk increases. This argument presumes that the majority of incarcerated people are indeed guilty of the crime they're in for.

If 1/3 of the people shot by police don't comprise 1/3 of the population, something, somewhere has gone wrong. That's all I said. However, the black population is some... 13%? So that needs ~1/10 of the population to be providing ~1/3 of people being shot by police assuming perfectly equal treatment. There's a lot of places this analysis suggests problems, in every stage.

BLM definitely has some complete idiots (I recall one person deciding to walk into the road... at night... dressed all in black...) within it, though.

Offline FireInTheSky

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3870
  • "Insight is the sudden cessation of stupidity."
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #414 on: November 11, 2016, 11:44:06 PM »
So the point of non-breeding marriage is lost on me.

I'm curious how this squares with the idea that one of the abortion alternatives for women is adoption? Surely having additional stable, solid couples with all the protections and benefits of state-recognized marriage would increase the pool of homes available for adoptions, especially since, as you said, such additional marriages are "non-breeding." (Side note: not totally sure what you mean by "non-breeding," since with modern medical technology, same-sex couples potentially can produce their own offspring.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by Raineh

Offline Chemus

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1929
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #415 on: November 11, 2016, 11:53:26 PM »
The point of the 'I don't care about gay marriage' is that I'm fine with it, but working toward or against it does not impact my voting in any way.

And the rest of my view of marriage is indeed rather simplistic. Adoption exists, sure, but then children are in the pic. And more power to 'em as far as science makin' more babies.
Apathy is ...ah screw it.
My Homebrew

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #416 on: November 12, 2016, 12:02:07 AM »
You really have a viewpoint I can't understand.  I don't understand treating government power as anything other than a means to some end, at all. What's the point in caring about the philosophy of governance over the outcomes of it?

Offline Solo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1778
  • Sorcelator Supreme
    • View Profile
    • Solo's Compiled Works
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #417 on: November 12, 2016, 01:28:17 AM »
Well, Trump erased the muslim ban and leaving the Paric Climate treaty from his website, and he publicly walked back complete repeal of Obamacare insisting there are parts that need to be kept.

My conservative friends are now howling for his blood on FB.  He literally went from being the second coming of jesus to the devil within an hour.

We are at war with Trump. We have always been at war with Trump.
"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down."

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3346
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #418 on: November 12, 2016, 02:03:26 AM »
Well, Trump erased the muslim ban and leaving the Paric Climate treaty from his website, and he publicly walked back complete repeal of Obamacare insisting there are parts that need to be kept.

So he's walking back his more extreme ideas and becoming more moderate?  It's almost like he isn't literally Hitler after all.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: The Politics Thread v3
« Reply #419 on: November 12, 2016, 02:06:41 AM »
Well, Trump erased the muslim ban and leaving the Paric Climate treaty from his website, and he publicly walked back complete repeal of Obamacare insisting there are parts that need to be kept.

So he's walking back his more extreme ideas and becoming more moderate?  It's almost like he isn't literally Hitler after all.

Hitler had more charisma and believed what he said, that's true.