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Creative Corner => New Mechanics and Subsystems => Homebrew and House Rules (D&D) => Touhou Battle Grimoire => Topic started by: oslecamo on April 14, 2012, 07:51:20 PM

Title: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 14, 2012, 07:51:20 PM
As the title says.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Garryl on April 14, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
It would be nice to know what overall power level you're shooting for with these. I've always looked at your ToBhou disciplines, compared them to my mental model of the existing ToB disciplines (and classes), and thought "Damn, boy, this shit be OP!" But if they're all internally balanced amongst each other at some level, well, that's a different story, one that's all fine and dandy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on April 14, 2012, 08:15:37 PM
The fancy board name was breaking the Recent Posts lists. So back to the original.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 15, 2012, 05:45:04 PM
It would be nice to know what overall power level you're shooting for with these. I've always looked at your ToBhou disciplines, compared them to my mental model of the existing ToB disciplines (and classes), and thought "Damn, boy, this shit be OP!" But if they're all internally balanced amongst each other at some level, well, that's a different story, one that's all fine and dandy.

They're suposed to be internally balanced, also seeking to stay on the rough same level as my monster classes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Garryl on April 16, 2012, 05:26:18 PM
In that case, good job, because they look about right for that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Garryl on April 25, 2012, 06:29:47 PM
The index says "Doo Judgement", not "Doll Judgement".
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 29, 2012, 11:09:38 AM
Fixed, thanks!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 05, 2012, 08:06:36 PM
Bunch of minor updates:
-Dream Battle-1st level maneuvers are in.
-Doll Judgement-Clarified Doll Cremation so that a sucessful save negates blidness and reduces damage.
-Plain History-You can now initiate Plain History counters and boosts while wielding the weapon granted by that stance.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Merchant on September 19, 2012, 12:12:06 PM
I am loving your Disciplines. I can't even choose a favorite but I love the ones that have a class that go with it.

I was wondering if you could make a class for the Lunatic Princess. The idea of an item/artifact user is quite interesting. I'll have to read the thread again but do you have stats and abilities for these artifacts in the first place?

EDIT:

Sorry just realized you have the Royal being the class for it. Either way great work wih the Royal too.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 19, 2012, 12:24:44 PM
Thanks!

The class for the Lunatic Princess was suposed to be the Eternal Royal. I did it for Border of Life first, but my long-term plan would be for it to have 3 ToBhou schools to pick from.
Ah you noticed it good.

As for the artifacts, they're suposed to be normal or magic items you "bind" to yourself and then improve.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Prime32 on September 24, 2012, 03:40:10 PM
If I can suggest an addition to the introduction which would solve a lot of odd rule interactions... (and reduce the need for exception clauses)
Quote
The classes in this work possess a heavier magical component than those in Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, and interact with spellcasting-related feats and prestige classes in a similar manner to the warlock (Complete Arcane).

While they cannot qualify for feats and prestige classes with a spellcaster level requirement (since they cannot cast spells), members of these classes can meet caster level requirements by using their initiator level in place of their caster level. Likewise, prestige classes which advance spellcasting ability may be used to advance the maneuvers of one of these classes instead. This does not apply to characters who gain access to these disciplines through other sources (such as the Martial Study feat).

Maneuvers from the schools in this work count as arcane spells of one level lower for meeting prerequisites, except for Dream Battle and Lunatic Princess which count as divine spells of one level lower. An initiator of one of these schools does not possess spell slots, however, and cannot benefit from abilities which require the expenditure of spell slots or prepared spells (such as Arcane Strike or Spontaneous Healer).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 25, 2012, 05:09:22 AM
That's a great idea, added!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on October 13, 2012, 07:44:00 PM
When in Doll Judgment you say "use your own stats" like for example in the 3rd level stance, does that mean you roll both attack and damage as if you were the one attacking or just attack.

Also, I guess the dolls are valid targets for buff spells?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 13, 2012, 07:48:27 PM
Yes to both.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on October 13, 2012, 07:50:10 PM
yes to attack and damage or yes to just attack?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 13, 2012, 07:53:30 PM
Attack and damage.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on October 13, 2012, 08:05:58 PM
Just a few more questions :)

This "use your own stats" does not include the use of feats does it? I don't mean "weapon focus" and the like, but feats like stand-still, knock-back and knock-down.

What about equipment. Is your attack and damage  (in the "use your own stats" case) calculated with what equipment you hold? Mainly asking about weapons.

Edit: Also I notice that after "Doll Placement" there are no maneuvers for re-positioning your dolls. Do they get movement speed from "Blue Benevolent Dolls"? (I am guessing that since they can do tasks as unseen servant they can move, but at what speed?)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 18, 2012, 07:17:46 AM
Ouch missed this one.

They use your feats/class abilities yes, and I'm not that worried about standstill/knockdown since those are extremely specialized builds, so you better be really good at it (plus being in a Doll Judgement stance means not being in that other stance that gives you endless aoos, and the dolls have capped aoos of their own).

Equipment and movement are explained in Puppeteer's theater, the 1st level stance.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on October 18, 2012, 01:38:51 PM
Quote
Equipment and movement are explained in Puppeteer's theater, the 1st level stance.

So it is exactly as if you are making the attack with the exception of size modifiers and the weapon you wield. OK!

As far as movement is concerned the stance states that they move with you. I guess that means that you cannot move them independently or alter their position except by using maneuvers tat specifically enable you to move them? They only move as you do and always stay in the same relative position?

What happens if you teleport? Do they follow along?

Quote
hey use your feats/class abilities yes, and I'm not that worried about standstill/knockdown since those are extremely specialized builds, so you better be really good at it (plus being in a Doll Judgement stance means not being in that other stance that gives you endless aoos, and the dolls have capped aoos of their own).

I was thinking a knockback combo with Little Legion maneuver, where each doll would bullrush the opponent in the next doll's reach making it possible to attack the same target with all of them (if they all succeeded in the bullrush of course). Would that work?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 19, 2012, 06:39:10 PM
You can channel basic abilities trough your dolls, so you could spend a move action to make one move alone.

If you teleport they follow you yes.

Yes, you could make a chain of bullrushes with little legion, altough you're still taking a -8 penalty since the dolls are two sizes smaller than you.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 31, 2013, 02:38:16 PM
Yuyuko, Kaguya... who's going to be the third? Remilia? Wakatsuki Sisters? Yukari? Eiki? (Think I'll stop because they're just getting more and more unlikely. XD)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 01, 2013, 08:09:37 AM
She's on the works, along with  rough drafts for Mei Ling, Komachi and Eirin but I may just end up finishing Remilia next since she seems to be quite requested. She would be the third base discipline of the Eternal Royal, suposedly going into Lunatic Lancer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6782.msg110715#msg110715) (that I probably should transfer here). Flandre would then be converted into a Forbidden School.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 01, 2013, 11:35:13 AM
Gungnir is impressive and all, but I always think more of the fact she attacks you with blood. XD

Ever got any plans to go near Yukari, Shiki, or Shinki (so, ancient youkai of vague power, someone who Yukari says could beat her, Yuyuko, AND Reimu with no difficulty, and creator of an entire world)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on February 02, 2013, 04:12:06 AM
Doll Judgement enables you to channel  all  actions through your dolls. If you are invisible and channel an attack through your dolls, does that break the invisibility?

Also, I am reading "The girl who played with people's shapes", specifically the Lemming Parade. It seem useful but tiny creatures don't threaten squares around them. Is it intended to be used only with dolls that wield reach weapons? And since we are on the subject. A tiny doll that uses a small reach weapon, does it have 5ft or 10ft reach?
It's a pity they cant use ranged weapons.

Edit: Blue Benevolent Dolls say they provide concealment to squares behind them. Does this apply only to the Initiator and allies or does it also benefit any enemies that have a Doll in front of them?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 03, 2013, 05:07:06 PM
I would say that no, attacking trough the dolls doesn't break your own invisibility.

A little obscure fact in D&D is that a tiny creature with a manufactured weapon actually has a 5 feet reach (or 10 feet reach with a reach weapon).

Yes blue dolls can benefit enemies. They're not called benevolent for nothing. :p

Altough I'm open to change stuff if any seems too strong/weak.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Garryl on February 03, 2013, 05:38:53 PM
How are you getting that? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm says Tiny typically has a natural reach of 0 ft.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 03, 2013, 08:17:31 PM
Old obscure rule I once saw in a splat, altough I don't seem to be able to find it now. No biggie, just edited in Doll Judgment to explicitly work like that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on February 03, 2013, 11:45:40 PM
Yes blue dolls can benefit enemies. They're not called benevolent for nothing. :p

Haha, right. Does that affect only squares adjastent to them or all squares behind them?


Quote
Altough I'm open to change stuff if any seems too strong/weak
.


It is just that, as it is, you have to choose between being protected by your Dolls and hitting your enemies, especially if you are a ranged character. It gets even harder  when they also block line of sight and effect. It seemed a little odd to me.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 04, 2013, 05:23:25 AM
All squares behind them.

However notice that you can channel your attacks trough your dolls and also see trough their eyes, plus DJ maneuvers that  use dolls count the doll as the source of the attack, so as long as you're using the "frontline" dolls to do the bashing, they'll never get in your own way.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on February 04, 2013, 08:15:23 AM
I totally forgot about that. 
I also had the impression that you can only channel maneuvers. How I got that idea I don't know , since it clearly says "any of your actions".  :blush
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 17, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
Hm.

Clearly, there should be a feat that gives you bonuses based on the fanciness of your headwear. Unless your only ToBhou school is Lunatic Princess, naturally.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 19, 2013, 05:39:12 AM
Yeah, I've been toying around with the idea  of some "general" tobhou feats/equipment, not only for fancy headwear but also dress-plate, broomsticks, throwable weapons of all sorts and whatnot.  Maybe I can finally consolidate all of this properly next weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on February 19, 2013, 03:53:00 PM
What about one for style over substance? That is the general point of danmaku. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 21, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
She's on the works, along with  rough drafts for Mei Ling, Komachi and Eirin but I may just end up finishing Remilia next since she seems to be quite requested. She would be the third base discipline of the Eternal Royal, suposedly going into Lunatic Lancer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6782.msg110715#msg110715) (that I probably should transfer here). Flandre would then be converted into a Forbidden School.

Sorry, newbie barging in, but I've been a long time fan of your ToBhou stuff for a long time and am even prepping to put some of it to use in an upcoming homebrew game being run by a friend.

Anyways just wanted to say I would definitely love to see something based on Meiling after Remilia and Flandre :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 28, 2013, 10:32:00 PM
Hmm. Classes, schools, some feats...

Clearly, this is missing items beyond dolls. Talking about Byakuren's scroll reminded me. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on March 28, 2013, 10:39:18 PM
To be honest, I've been working on a Legacy Weapon.

Maybe that's part of what is feeling amiss.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 28, 2013, 10:42:32 PM
Only Legacy Weapon that I can think of would be the Hakurei Yin-Yang Orbs... wait, nearly forgot Roukanken and Hakurouken. Aside from that (and the general mythological weapontheft that Flandre has somehow pulled off) there's a distinct lack of suitable equipment. Kaguya has a lot of stuff, but none of it is really suitable. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on March 28, 2013, 10:48:40 PM
Aye. The legendary Norse weapon of fire.

Mine was a no brainer; the Shichiseiken, or 7☆Sword.
I'm sure with some thought finding something appropriate to most disciplines wouldn't be too hard.

Otherwise, hat items are probably mandatory.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 28, 2013, 10:51:56 PM
I don't believe it's possible to turn a demon cherry tree into an item.

Detached sleeves as a miko item. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Concerned Ninja Citizen on March 28, 2013, 11:07:53 PM
I don't believe it's possible to turn a demon cherry tree into an item.

Make it a monster class.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on March 29, 2013, 09:24:03 AM
But it can't move. D:

It's also the sole irredeemably evil thing in all of Touhou. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 04:12:46 PM
While working, I just got what I think is one great idea to mechanize Marisa. Class, discipline. The whole thing.
It could also be used for a Patchouli system.
We are in a never-ending rush period at work so I don't have much spare time this season, which might make fleshing out the whole thing pretty slow. I hope you're not working on something similar already.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 04:18:25 PM
Care to share? Because, honestly, I'm a bit suspicious about utilising Marisa and Patchouli. :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2013, 04:21:25 PM
While working, I just got what I think is one great idea to mechanize Marisa. Class, discipline. The whole thing.
It could also be used for a Patchouli system.
We are in a never-ending rush period at work so I don't have much spare time this season, which might make fleshing out the whole thing pretty slow. I hope you're not working on something similar already.
Look at my avatar. I've been working on Marisa ever since I started this. I didn't post it yet because I believed it still wasn't good enough.

If you're forcing my hand however, I should be able to clean it up and post it in the next days.

Also, Patchouli will get her own system. Anything less would be just lazy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 04:28:18 PM
Ah, then maybe I can help you a bit with the rough edges once its out.
I didn't mean to use the same exact system for Patchouli, just use it as a base since they are both magicians.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 04:42:13 PM
Patchouli is a Western Magician that uses Eastern stylings. Marisa is an Eastern Magician that uses Western stylings. One is a human, who gets their power from advance preparation; the other was born magical (unlike Alice). They both use magic, but the similarities end there.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 04:47:28 PM
I know. They are still both magicians. One is a natural one and the other isn't.
Not far from dnd's wizard/sorcerer. Both use a similar system with a few differences.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2013, 04:51:14 PM
Here's a very rough outline for anyone wanting to offer sugestions:
-Base class has both maneuvers and custom spellcasting system, as in can reach 9th level spells, but can only prepare an handful per day.
-Broomstick as weapon/transport, Hakkero to power up magic, also unstable potions, can quickly collect Magic Mushrooms.
-Base class also has ability to learn/research new spells after battle, altough again can only pick up a few at a time. Altough Marisa is infamous for stealing acquiring spells from others, she never does so during battle, and is actually enphasized she takes her time researching and experimenting before actually bringing it up into battle.
-School has maneuvers that all combine with damage-dealing spells to buff them up.
-Stances allow you to pick a damaging spell you have prepared and spam it with some limitations.
-Base school based on Int and Use Magic Device.

Still deciding on the name since Marisa has over a dozen theme songs. Magus Night, Witch's Ball and Love-Colored Magic are my current favorite options.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 05:08:50 PM
Love-Coloured Magic is probably the most appropriate, given that this is a school about her magic.

So, about what level do the various versions of Master Spark fall?

UMD? I would have expected Spellcraft. The one magical item she legitimately needs, the mini-Hakkero, was made for her. :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 05:10:48 PM
Class would be Ordinary Magician. Discipline would be Magus Night. (At least that's what I was going for)

I was thinking that her discipline could be entirely fuelled by spellcasting. She gets spells like most wizards would, but can invest prepared spells into maneuver slots. Something like sacrifice 2 level 4 spells to gain a level 4 readied maneuver. Recharging maneuvers could be done with further spell sacrifices.
Mostly because giving dual progression of any maneuvers and spells going up to level 9, even if just a few, would probably be way too good (even one of each with bonus spells for high ability score would probably be too generous).

Her maneuvers known would be in the form of books. One book per maneuver known.

A stance wouldn't require spell payments.
Mushrooms could be her only spell components. Hakkero (other thingy depending on the adept) is the only spell focus. Some maneuvers could still require somatic/vocal components and the need for the spell focus/components.
Metamagics work with the maneuvers, to a point.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
If Marisa's maneuvers are basically metamagic stuff... really cut-down spell list on level up (Marisa... is not the greatest at spell creation), so any versatility has to be derived from that used against you? Would say prohibit metamagic feats, but I'm not sure that's possible. XD

Anomander... that sounds annoyingly complicated.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 05:22:05 PM
It's actually pretty simple.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2013, 05:28:04 PM
Spellcraft does sound a better fit indeed. I was a little hesitant on it since I already used that skill for Breath of Fire. But tecnically no other ToBhou school used it yet, so spellcraft it will be. Patchoulli would be Knowledge(Arcana) after that.

When I say an "handful" of spells, I do mean just an handful. No bonus spells from high int. No leveled slots. She gets like 3-6 spells per day, that's it, fill them as you wish up to the top level you're able to cast. Marisa starts with max power and burns out fast from there. Anyway sacrificing spells to recover maneuvers would only make sense if the spells were even stronger than the maneuvers.

Mushrooms as substitute spell components sounds like a good idea. Books for maneuvers known sounds more like something for Patchy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 05:36:10 PM
Marisa steals books as a reference, but then again... she steals everything. If Sleight of Hand isn't involved somewhere, I feel something's gone wrong (and I recall from somewhere that Alice isn't much better. Damn thieves)

The issue with using spells to recover maneuvers on a one-to-one basis: it makes maneuvers a finite resource that needs at least some token effort at conservation. What 1st through to 9th level finite resource do we have that allows you to use certain abilities? Spells. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 05:41:36 PM
Not on a one-to-one basis.
Sacrifice spells whose levels equal the level of the maneuver to be recovered. Or whose levels equal half the maneuver level, in case it burns them too quickly (level 0 spells counting as half a level). But that is only in battle.
Maneuvers all recharge automatically at the start of an encounter as usual and can be recharged with a cooldown out of combat.

Patchouli is a natural magician but they all seem to rely on books for high spellcasting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 05:46:51 PM
Are we sure she's not just a bibliophile? It's her library, not Remilia's. They're friends, after all.

Also, there's a flaw with the above comparison (sorcerer vs wizard): that doesn't cover the fact they're different types of magicians. It's more Sorcerer as opposed to Cleric.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2013, 05:55:14 PM
Sleight of hand sounds... Lovely actually. And I had already planned on the base class having some "Yoink I'll be burrowing that now" abilities.

Marisa never carries books into combat. Alice carries her grimoire, but then very rarely actually uses it. Patchoulli is the only one that actively reads books during combat.

Also, limiting Marisa's recharge of maneuvers during combat to a resource limited per day just sounds cruel. One of the most praised aspects of ToB has always been relatively free recharge of your combat tricks in the heat of the action.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 06:00:04 PM
I think Alice carries her Grimoire because she doesn't want someone stealing it. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 06:03:09 PM
Are we sure she's not just a bibliophile?
That's how I see it.
Comparing it to cleric is a big stretch. More as with a Wu Jen or Shugenja.


Patchoulli is the only one that actively reads books during combat.
She reads books in battle, but I'm not sure they actually help her in combat. Might just be her reading pretty much all the time.

The idea was not the need to have the books in battle. Just read them to have them known for the day.
The Grimoire could be Patchouli's version of the hakkero. Some kind of spell focus.

Also, limiting Marisa's recharge of maneuvers during combat to a resource limited per day just sounds cruel.
Doesn't sound so cruel to me when I remember she'd still have spellcasting and that the entire use of the maneuvers would be optional. I very good option, mind you.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 20, 2013, 06:08:27 PM
Cleric is because I couldn't think of any distinctive arcane casters aside from bards.  -_-'


If the point is to have a ToB school with minor spellcasting capability, making their ability to use combat maneuvers in combat dependent upon sacrificing a limited resource is... weird. :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 06:12:48 PM
Depends on what exactly is desired.
If you want a magician whose primal power is the use of a martial discipline that can be enhanced with spells.
Or if you want a spellcaster that has access to a special tweak of her own magic in the form of spellcards.

I went with the later, seeing how magicians are, well, spellcasters before anything else.
I see no problem with the former. That is just my interpretation.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 20, 2013, 06:26:20 PM
Well, right now my discipline falls under the "spellcaster that has acess to a special tweak of her own magic in the form of spellcards", since basically all of the maneuvers are dependant on you having prepared spells ready to use. If you run out of spells, the school becomes mostly useless. The stances allow you to get more uses from your limited slots, assuming you don't mind having to rely mostly on destructive spells.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 20, 2013, 06:38:38 PM
Aye, that'll depend on the martial discipline, I suppose. If they are indeed quite useless without spells.

If it is meant to be only used by casters it shouldn't be too dependant on the actual base class otherwise other builds wishing to get access to it would get an empty and useless discipline.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 23, 2013, 05:49:15 PM
Yanno, legacy weapons for some of these martial schools could be pretty cool. With how the ToB schools have some too.

Like Shanghai for Doll Judgement or Youmu's Roukanken & Hakurouken for Ancient Temple. Or something like that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 23, 2013, 05:57:14 PM
Shanghai isn't a specific doll.

Now, the Hakurei Yin-Yang orbs could theoretically be candidates (though I don't remember the system as much good)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 23, 2013, 06:01:33 PM
Well, that wiki says it is :P
There's also Hourai I guess.
I mean, even if not specific dolls, there is still a name there for them lol.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 23, 2013, 06:06:01 PM
If it's the wikia wiki, it's less than reliable.

Nevertheless, if you pay attention to the spellcards they're from, Alice has a whole bunch of the things. Besides, there's already a feat to create a unique doll companion. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 23, 2013, 06:07:58 PM
Oh, thats a good point. That carrionette thing, right?

I guess a legacy weapon for Doll Judgement would take more thought then. Not as obvious as some other characters.

Now that I think about it, the Youkai-forged blades you get from the feat for Ancient Temple could already qualify as a sort of legacy weapon that they could awaken into later...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 23, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
Everything Hakurouken and Roukanken can do is folded into the basic blades and the maneuvers.

Kaguya's stuff is the very basis of her maneuvers.

The items that could qualify tend to be either not yet implemented (Marisa's stuff) or have really weird effects (Yin-Yang Orbs). Legacy weapons are also... kinda bad, from what I remember.

Interestingly, the only other items I can think of that are important enough and not folded into maneuvers are all from UFO. Palaquin Ship, that lantern, Byakuren's scroll.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 23, 2013, 06:48:15 PM
I already made one for Desire Drive (7StarSword) but I intend to post a few together instead of one by one. It'll give me a better overview of them in general that way. Trying to stick to the formula of normal legacy weapons, recycling their abilities in an order that doesn't make them suck and making new ones inspired by those already in place.

If all goes well, I should be able to finish Divine Flame (that sweet starcloak) before too long.
I also had a concept for Ancient Temple. The blades come with the feat, so I was going for a special sheath instead, the one with the flower strapped to it.
Border of Life is a special fan, I guess.
YingYang Orb is a given.
Doll Judgement... probably some kind of spear for a doll to use. Fashioned like a long needle, maybe.
Cryst Silver would likely be an icepick. Kidding.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 23, 2013, 06:51:44 PM
... the cloak looks awesome but doesn't actually do anything. Same deal with the fan, and for the doll you're just making stuff up. :|
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 23, 2013, 07:07:27 PM
Yeeeaaah....I guess you're kinda right on that, Raineh Daze.

Some of the things Anomander mentioned, like Utsuho's cape, Yuyuko's fan, ect, probably stuff that would work as just normal items in that Kourindou's Shop thread  :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 23, 2013, 07:16:13 PM
There comes a point where there is no harm in making stuff up, then adjust them when a better concept idea comes up.

New idea for Doll Judgement would be a weapon in the form of strings, maybe kinda like a garrotte.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 23, 2013, 07:25:41 PM
There comes a point where there is no harm in making stuff up, then adjust them when a better concept idea comes up.

There definetely is harm in doing discipline-specific magic items when said disciplines are already so borderline strong. If you want to do magic items, do them as generic as possible and put them in Korindou's shop, otherwise you're just trying to start a straight-out power creep competition, meaning they'll get auto-banned in my games.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 23, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Yikes. Power creeping?
You may not know it but discipline specific legacy weapons aren't so discipline specific. They aren't that good to begin with and non-initiators can use them just about as well as any master of their key discipline. The key discipline is for the theme more than anything else.

In other news, it appears that 13.5 is coming out soon in its full version along with the demo for 14. Very soon.
Making a decent school for Nitori will finally be possible. Beware the science (and water...)!
I'll probably consider reviewing the disciplines once Miko and Futo's moves are all released. It seems Utsuho won't be playable despite that one screenshot.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 24, 2013, 05:43:36 PM
Byakuren would eventually get a school, too.

This appears to involve kicking people in the face by flying into the air.

Yeah, coming out Sunday whilst I'll be at a different expo thing in the UK. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 24, 2013, 05:53:53 PM
Yikes. Power creeping?
You may not know it but discipline specific legacy weapons aren't so discipline specific. They aren't that good to begin with and non-initiators can use them just about as well as any master of their key discipline. The key discipline is for the theme more than anything else.
It doesn't matter that the original ones are crap. I'm assured you would work on taking care of that, just as you made a base class by picking up the marshal and throwing in save-or-die, don't die when you're killed, exp/gold bonus, a bunch of immunities, planet-throwing, turn undead and a bunch of other goodies before adding in maneuvers and stances. :p

In other news, it appears that 13.5 is coming out soon in its full version along with the demo for 14. Very soon.
Making a decent school for Nitori will finally be possible. Beware the science (and water...)!
I'll probably consider reviewing the disciplines once Miko and Futo's moves are all released. It seems Utsuho won't be playable despite that one screenshot.

Like there isn't some other dozens of characters with full sets of spellcards waiting to be done? I sometimes wonder why you give the latest game characters so much attention over the previous ones.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 24, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
Utsuho's cape looks awesome. And she tosses suns at people. Definitely the awesomeness factor with this one.

... we ought to keep a list of Windows characters with schools, or some way involved in schools (or earmarked for forbidden schools), I guess. @_@
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 24, 2013, 06:13:08 PM
Yeah, I'd try to make them good weapons. Mostly by using existing legacy weapon abilities with the occasional adjustments to fit the theme. But in the end it remains a magic weapon that isn't more powerful by being used with by masters of a given school. Pretty much like the other legacy tob weapons.

Quote
Like there isn't some other dozens of characters with full sets of spellcards waiting to be done? I sometimes wonder why you give the latest game characters so much attention over the previous ones.
I give attention to characters I like.
I feel somewhat apathetic to most of the other characters.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 24, 2013, 06:21:14 PM
Yeah, I'd try to make them good weapons. Mostly by using existing legacy weapon abilities with the occasional adjustments to fit the theme. But in the end it remains a magic weapon that isn't more powerful by being used with by masters of a given school. Pretty much like the other legacy tob weapons.
Hint: legacy weapons are broken in all senses of the word. Several options are horrible, several options are imba, and if you're basing your work on that horrible, terrible book, then I honestly doubt any good will come out of that.

Quote
Like there isn't some other dozens of characters with full sets of spellcards waiting to be done? I sometimes wonder why you give the latest game characters so much attention over the previous ones.
I give attention to characters I like.
I feel somewhat apathetic to most of the other characters.
Doesn't change the part where the characters you like just happen to be the protagonists of the latest titles.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 24, 2013, 06:32:59 PM
Alright, I'll take a diff take on them.

Quote
Doesn't change the part where the characters you like just happen to be the protagonists of the latest titles.
Not really. I didn't give you a list of the characters I liked.

You asked me why I gave attention to characters of the latest games and I told you why. It wasn't on purpose.
I was working on a remilia/flandre (even though I don't really like remilia) discipline before you posted yours, if that somehow eases your mind on the matter.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 28, 2013, 04:58:12 PM
After beating 13.5, I'm even more primed on the idea of a Nitori/Byakuren (my best character) discipline. Love Miko's cape, btw.
I've toyed with the idea of Hata no Kokoro being the basis of a forbidden school for Desire Drive, seeing the whole Mask of Hope plot, but figured that Parsee's Green Jealousy might be more appropriate thematically, being super jealous being sort of the opposite direction of ignoring one's desires.

Might be working on that slowly over the next few months.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 28, 2013, 05:01:19 PM
... Parsee has nothing to do with Taoism. And please don't do anything weird with Byakuren. :<
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 28, 2013, 06:12:09 PM
It should have something to do with Taoism?

I mean, does Mystia Lorelei have something to do with history?
Otherwise, don't worry. I grow bored with things rather quickly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on May 28, 2013, 06:14:49 PM
It should have something to do with Taoism?

I mean, does Mystia Lorelei have something to do with history?

I think the justification for that one is that they're both youkai with one stage between them.

Connection between Parsee and Taoism is strenuous, since she wouldn't make sense to work on the same mechanic. :|
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on May 28, 2013, 06:19:05 PM
It does have a connection in totally opposing its teachings.

I doubt being both youkai with one stage between them is the reason or a justification. One seeks reason in facts and records, the other is wild and seeks discord and confusion. They sort of are opposites.
The other forbidden school toys around two approaches to eternity.
Considering the different ways forbidden schools are being made, it seems like there is no one correct approach besides it being a different take on the prime ideal of the base discipline.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 02, 2013, 09:11:15 AM
I think we need a new base race. Specifically, the Lunarians. Also the Moon Rabbits, possibly (as they're not just youkai rabbits). :lmao

Suppose you could use AA for the latter, but still. Lunarians. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Atmo on August 21, 2013, 06:52:37 AM
Waiting for a Wolf Tengu's race or school. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2013, 04:54:16 PM
Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
... What does Komachi have to do with Neutral Evil outsiders? :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
She's the freaking boatwoman of the  big underworld River. That's the yugoloth's job in D&D cosmology.

There's also the "Death God from Hell that royally screws over poor families while wasting piles of cash herself" aspect.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2013, 05:28:20 PM
Um... you really shouldn't make a character a NE outsider because D&D gave NE outsiders the same job. That just doesn't make sense at all. :/

Second paragraph doesn't even sound like it's referring to the same series.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
Please, just check Komachi's official profile:

Quote
When a person dies, their spirit must cross the river to the Netherworld. It is Komachi's duty to ferry the dead across the river. The width and depth of the river changes depending on her mood. Also, if someone has done too much evil during their lifetime, they may even not be able to cross the river.

A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money. That is to say, not the money that the deceased may have had while they were alive, but rather the total amount of those who yearned and missed that person from the bottom of their hearts.

So your village/city/country was razed to the ground and your family and friends lost everything they had? Nobody that cares about you has any money, so Komachi deems you evil to the extreme, and you're in for a long journey.

But if you're the leader of a powerful cult that worships your person? Plenty of people with money will mourn your passing, and Komachi deems you a paragon of goodness, enjoy your quick trip whitout trouble even if you ate babies for breakfast.

And then there's this part from her profile:

Quote
Komachi always demands those she guides to pay all the money they have, and anyone who hesitates to pay the full sum is dropped into the river midway through the journey. The river is made infinitely wide, and the unfortunate spirit is soon consumed by huge fishes and sea dinosaurs which were extinct in world of the living.

Just hesitate to pay Komachi's fee, and she'll feed you to giant pre-historic sharks. It's hard to get more Neutral Evil than this if you ask me.

Basically, Komachi is a woman of business, and all she really cares is geting paid. Miss even a cent of your payment? She gets rid of you whitout remorse.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2013, 06:02:28 PM
Okay, so the first part: if nobody misses you (which is more what that seems to be getting at), then you have a long trip. Not the amount of wealth they have, but how many people miss you. Okay, if you're the last to die, that sucks, but what else have you got to do?

And if you, being dead, refuse to pay, you get dumped in the river. Seems a fairly logical conclusion--you're dead, what else are you supposed to do with the money? Besides, I think that's a reference to traditionally putting six coins in a casket. In other words, the money you'd have on you and not be paying? That's only there to pay her. Doesn't reflect on you if you're too selfish and greedy to pay your fare. :eh

So, not neutral evil. I'd say Lawful Neutral, if not for the fact that she can't be bothered to do her job half the time.

Also, it doesn't really matter how shinigami judge good/evil (and if it's judged so bizarrely, it's kind of hard to describe them as 'embodiments of evil as a cosmic force'), since all that affects is the trip. It's still the Yama on the other end that determines the afterlife. And you're dead. What else have you got to do?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2013, 06:11:04 PM
Okay, so the first part: if nobody misses you (which is more what that seems to be getting at), then you have a long trip. Not the amount of wealth they have, but how many people miss you. Okay, if you're the last to die, that sucks, but what else have you got to do?
Read it again. It's the money that counts (I even bolded it). Not your own money, but the money from the people that cared about you.

Also, it doesn't really matter how shinigami judge good/evil (and if it's judged so bizarrely, it's kind of hard to describe them as 'embodiments of evil as a cosmic force'), since all that affects is the trip. It's still the Yama on the other end that determines the afterlife. And you're dead. What else have you got to do?
That's the thing-if you don't get to the other side, you don't get judged, you don't get a shot at afterlife, and spend eternity being chewed by giant sharks.

Not because you didn't pay.

Just because you hesitated to pay Komachi.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2013, 06:24:29 PM
Actually, I've found a more coherent translation.

Quote
A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money. That is to say, not the money that the deceased may have had while they were alive, but rather the total amount of those who yearned and missed that person from the bottom of their hearts. By the way, judging the amount of crimes of the dead is not Komachi's job and would be handled after crossing the river, but that's a story for another time.
After death, when she requests a passage fee from them, people tend to be surprised since the money they have on hand doesn't correspond to their own assets, but on the assets of his or her surrounding friends.
Very rich people tend to be despised during their life, and are astonished to see how little they have after death.
Komachi always demands those she guides to pay all the money they have, and anyone who hesitates to pay the full sum is dropped into the river midway through the journey. The river is made infinitely wide, and the unfortunate spirit is soon consumed by huge fishes and water dragon which were extinct in world of the living.

'Hesitates to pay the full sum' is vague--it could mean trying to bargain her down, or withhold money. It's a stretch to assume that it's simply 'doesn't immediately hand everything over'. And, again, you're dead. You're dead, and your spirit has come to the banks of the Sanzu River in order to cross, be judged, and reincarnate/whatever. There is no possible reason to want to cling to the money you unexpectedly have X amount of other than avarice.

Also, to say 'the complete razing of a village means that you have no money and therefore can't cross and therefore Neutral Evil'  and 'if you have a cult of millions, therefore you quickly cross and therefore Neutral Evil' is assigning ZUN considerably more forethought than is honestly likely. It's also assuming that the shinigami has a damn clue what's going on in the mortal world. Imperfect rule to judge how long someone's journey should be? Yes. Entirely for selfish reasons? Nope.

Using a somewhat awkward rule because that's the way things are done isn't Neutral Evil, it's LN.

And I still say that someone that slacks off all the time doesn't really fit the 'NE, all-about-business' mould very well.

There's also her SWR profile:

(click to show/hide)

... really, a yugoloth? :huh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 21, 2013, 06:51:09 PM
'Hesitates to pay the full sum' is vague--it could mean trying to bargain her down, or withhold money. It's a stretch to assume that it's simply 'doesn't immediately hand everything over'. And, again, you're dead. You're dead, and your spirit has come to the banks of the Sanzu River in order to cross, be judged, and reincarnate/whatever. There is no possible reason to want to cling to the money you unexpectedly have X amount of other than avarice.
In all games that Komachi shows up it's pointed out the spirits of the recently dead are quite confused beings and take some time to realize what's hapening to them. Extorting them of their money and expecting them to just blindly acept is not exactly nice if you ask me. Punishing them with eternal purgation whitout any shot at redemption just because of some spare change is definetely evil.

Also, to say 'the complete razing of a village means that you have no money and therefore can't cross and therefore Neutral Evil'  and 'if you have a cult of millions, therefore you quickly cross and therefore Neutral Evil' is assigning ZUN considerably more forethought than is honestly likely. It's also assuming that the shinigami has a damn clue what's going on in the mortal world. Imperfect rule to judge how long someone's journey should be? Yes. Entirely for selfish reasons? Nope.

Using a somewhat awkward rule because that's the way things are done isn't Neutral Evil, it's LN.
It is evil when you're profiting from it and don't move a single finger to try to change it. "Just doing my job" is a quite common excuse by evil doers. Komachi's happy with a flawed system because she gets to fill her pockets with it, and can even choose when to "work".

And I still say that someone that slacks off all the time doesn't really fit the 'NE, all-about-business' mould very well.
If she didn't slack off, then she would simply be LE. Being Neutral Evil means caring about your own well being above everything else. She knows she can slack off because she has a safe job position, so she slacks off regardless of dead spirits piling up across the land and royally screwing over the death-life balance.



There's also her SWR profile:

(click to show/hide)

... really, a yugoloth? :huh


A somewhat excentric Yugoloth yes, but still extorting the confused souls of the dead for her fun and profit in a murky business. :p

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 21, 2013, 07:08:46 PM
You're grasping at straws.

The money they have exists entirely to pay Komachi. There is no other reason for the souls of the dead to have money. It corresponds to the assets of those that miss them--but that doesn't mean that it's other people's money.

Komachi, similarly, has absolutely no need for it. What, exactly, is a functionally immortal ferryman of the dead going to spend money on?

It looks symbolic: the more people that miss you in life, the more money you have, the shorter your journey is. You pay the ferryman for passage with the money you have that exists entirely to pay the ferryman passage.

Eiki is annoyed with Komachi for slacking off, not for losing spirits in the river, so it's not something that's happening much, confusion or not.

Therefore, 'evil' is stretching it, and deciding that shinigami, part of the natural order of life--because seriously, that's exactly what they exist for--are therefore embodiments of evil is just plain ridiculous.

But whatever, this argument obviously isn't worth it.

You can count the likely evil things in Touhou on one hand--Mima and Yuuka probably are, then there's the Saigyou Ayakashi, which has no particular reason for killing people other than it can. Could possibly fit Rukia in if 'diet consists of people' equals 'inherently evil' when it's not human to start with. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Atmo on August 22, 2013, 10:56:30 AM
Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.

Two: Dog Sign "Rabies Bite" and Mountain Nomad "Expellee's Canaan".
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2013, 11:02:16 AM
Well, seems like I'll have to make a races thread at this rate.

Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it. But I seem to have managed to settle on Komachi now that I've come up with a couple signature mechanics for it. She'll come with a yugoloth monster class included.

Two: Dog Sign "Rabies Bite" and Mountain Nomad "Expellee's Canaan".

Unfortunately, nowhere near enough to do much with.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Atmo on August 22, 2013, 01:48:19 PM
Does Momiji even has spellcards tough?

Two: Dog Sign "Rabies Bite" and Mountain Nomad "Expellee's Canaan".

Unfortunately, nowhere near enough to do much with.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Characters/Characters_2#Momiji_Inubashiri

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Defence_of_The_Shrines/Characters/Momiji_Inubashiri

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Pocket_Wars_2nd/Characters/Momiji

This is enough information?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2013, 01:52:39 PM
Nope.

Bear in mind, a school consists of 9 levels (I do recall a few that might be more limited--but those're just ideas for now). Each level seems to have ~2-5 maneuvers. Let's say 3.5 average. 3.5 * 9 is ~31. So, 30ish cards. Extant schools manage it better because of the different card names on Easy through Lunatic, but Momiji's cards are from StB (or was it DS?), so they don't have the names.

There also isn't a theme or power running through them, so it's not really something that you can do much with.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 22, 2013, 02:47:17 PM
You're grasping at straws.

The money they have exists entirely to pay Komachi. There is no other reason for the souls of the dead to have money. It corresponds to the assets of those that miss them--but that doesn't mean that it's other people's money.
Yuyuko organizes festivals, hires youkai, and is geting food from somewhere to feed Youmu. So the dead clearly have an use for money.

Komachi, similarly, has absolutely no need for it. What, exactly, is a functionally immortal ferryman of the dead going to spend money on?
Geez, I dunno, how about half of her attacks that consist of throwing money as a weapon? ;)

It looks symbolic: the more people that miss you in life, the more money you have, the shorter your journey is. You pay the ferryman for passage with the money you have that exists entirely to pay the ferryman passage.
And to be used as a weapon for Yugoloth society.

Eiki is annoyed with Komachi for slacking off, not for losing spirits in the river, so it's not something that's happening much, confusion or not.
Because throwing spirits in the river if they even hesitate to pay is part of Komachi's job. Eiki would never scold her for that.

Therefore, 'evil' is stretching it, and deciding that shinigami, part of the natural order of life--because seriously, that's exactly what they exist for--are therefore embodiments of evil is just plain ridiculous.
In D&D, the 99.9% of devil society exists because they managed to manipulate the order of life to make them a part of it. Evil corrupts systems or so I heard.

But whatever, this argument obviously isn't worth it.

You can count the likely evil things in Touhou on one hand--Mima and Yuuka probably are, then there's the Saigyou Ayakashi, which has no particular reason for killing people other than it can. Could possibly fit Rukia in if 'diet consists of people' equals 'inherently evil' when it's not human to start with. :/
More than half the Touhou cast already feeds on humans. :rolleyes

Then for those that don't like human meat on the menu, there's plain old betrayal of those that trusted you (Mokou and Eirin, and that's just the tip of the iceberg for the lunar medic) and pretty much every protagonist in Subterranean animism for one reason or the other (they're sealed because they're considered evil even by other youkai).

Then there's manipulatory bitch Yukari that likes to organize invasions to the moon in her spare time, even knowing that pissing off the lunarians is a serious risk Gensyoko gets glassed to oblivion. Just look at one of her winning quotes from SWR:

Every tree and blade of grass is as precious as the Buddha.
Unfortunately, this doesn't include humans.


No wonder she's perfectly fine with using trains full of innocent people as a weapon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2013, 03:05:47 PM
Remind me to never talk with you about Touhou, because your opinions make me sick. It's taking the most absolutely negative view of everything and working based on that. Grimdark is idiotic. Making everything darker and darker just obscures it and saps away colour until there's absolutely nothing of interest left. 

Also, Shinigami in general are more like Inevitables--Komachi might be a ferryman, but there's others whose job is 'go collect souls'. Including Celestials, who only die if said shinigami kill them. Not Yugoloths.

Though you're obsessed with making her a daemon, go ahead. The class is going to be nonsensical, though. ._.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 22, 2013, 03:10:43 PM
Woah. I'm missing a big discussion on Shinigami/Yugoloths!

My perception of the thing is that the marraenoloth, specifically, fits the whole ferryman of the river of the dead aspect. But that's about it. Problem with it is that most shinigamis aren't ferrymen and the rest of the yugoloths really don't fit the profile at all besides being creatures in some kind of hell. Death god's jobs (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Encyclopedia:_Death_Gods). They also mention that a few of them are tasked with the actual collecting.
I haven't seen a single real 'shinigami' in DnD yet, which is quite surprising.

There is the Entropic Reaper, which is sort of a chaotic evil version of the shinigami (which seems more of a neutral/lawful neutral kind of grim reaper.)

All in all I think the Yugoloth is a poor substitute. Making them their own new race would be the way to go if getting a touhou shinigami with conceptual integrity is desired.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2013, 03:13:51 PM
Better wiki. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Shinigami) :|

The translations, at least, seem superior. Also has more horizontal width.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 22, 2013, 03:33:58 PM
Eugh... that came out harsher than I meant it.

I don't like taking the negative interpretation of everything. I really don't like it when it requires sifting through a lot of information to locate the evidence that everything is so terrible. It means going through a forest until you find the right flower and declaring that this is evidence it's actually a meadow.

It's especially bad when the person behind it all isn't the world's greatest writer, and the general tone is lighthearted.

Hell, Gensokyo's pretty idyllic, so long as nothing kills Reimu and humans have the sense to not stray far from the village. The human-eating youkai seem to get the food from the outside, which handily avoids depopulation. Can't really expect them to starve.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 24, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
Quote
On other news, I have like half a dozen new Tobhou school drafts but seem unable to actually focus on one to finish it.
If you're interested I could go over one or two of those. Maybe help you finish them.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 24, 2013, 07:31:43 PM
The notes are mostly in a mess that I dare show to no one. Checking back on them, even I have trouble understanding what exactly many of them are suposed to do myself.

Anyway, Crystallized Silver got the Frostwind Virago, Divine Battlefield got the Gods, Doll Judgment gets generalist wizards and sorcerors, Ancient Temple gets Rangers, and Dream Battle was first for crusaders and swordsages before Anomander talking me into making a base class for it.

So main point is, if there's already some class/monster in D&D that relates to a school in some way,  I will use it for the chassis, instead of coming up with a full new race based on one-of character.

Eternal Royal and Scholar only got made because base D&D had nothing to support their character archetypes before (since every "smart/charismatic" character was mainly a spellcaster of some sorts, which Yuyuko and Keine aren't). But Youmu is a TWF specialist with deep ties to nature, Cirno is an arrogant Ice Fairy, Alice is a spellbook mage, Reimu is a supernatural martial artist, Kanako is a goddess, and Komachi is still the boatman of the underground River. Is there already a boatman of the underground river  monster/class in D&D? Yes there is. Thus I will use it, instead of making up a whole new class based on your personal views of a character that's an unique being of its own species. Can't you even imagine that perhaps Komachi has levels besides the pure Maerroloth ones since that'll only fill some 11 of her levels?

And for all I care, you can outright ignore the Maerroloth class and stat up your Komachi expies as Lesser Aasimars/any other martial class 6/Paragon X/Saint Y/Whatever Z if you keep insisting she's the fairest being in existence.

Even Raineh Daze herself stated up Utusho by using the freaking Nuclear Dragon. Nobody complained at all when there was no nuclear hellish raven class for Divine Flame (but if I had done it I guess you would've complained that Utusho isn't either a raven or hellish either, so I guess I should've just made Komachi a plant with the living construct subtype and then you would all be happy. That's what I get from people who can't tell a Yugoloth from a daemon).

Also I have to ask you, where you live you're only considered a criminal if you somehow manage to prove you spend over 99% of your lifetime commiting crimes (aka that your life is an evil meadow)? Or do they actually take people to jail for finding a "single flower in a forest", aka finding a dead corpse inside your  house with your bloody fingerprints all over it, despite the other 99% of your life looking normal until now?

You don't need to kill every single person you find with a sadistic smile to be considered a cold blooded murderer. One or a dozen will do.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 24, 2013, 08:27:20 PM
Oh, so it's another class that's linked to the idea but is not actually meant to represent Komachi, it's just to give them more... interesting abilities, I guess? More understandable.

-Looks at the closest thing I've got to Utsuho.-

Anthromorphic Animal, Titanic Creature, Monster of Legend, and Warblade?

If I was JUST going to do Utsuho, it'd probably be AA, MoL, Warblade//God. Use Divine Salient Abilities to turn into bird.

Though I can't understand why anyone would complain that Utsuho's not a raven or hellish. She's a hell raven. And what else would the birds that attack you throughout Stage 6 be? @_@

Also, I have concluded that the Lunarians make elves look bad at being elves.

Also I have to ask you, where you live you're only considered a criminal if you somehow manage to prove you spend over 99% of your lifetime commiting crimes (aka that your life is an evil meadow)? Or do they actually take people to jail for finding a "single flower in a forest", aka finding a dead corpse inside your  house with your bloody fingerprints all over it, despite the other 99% of your life looking normal until now?

You don't need to kill every single person you find with a sadistic smile to be considered a cold blooded murderer. One or a dozen will do.

So series are automatically grimdark if there's the slightest, flimsiest piece of evidence they could possibly be? Not buying it. Especially not for Touhou. If ANY series is, it's probably not the one containing Hisoutensoku and Fairy Wars. :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 24, 2013, 09:22:54 PM
I'm usually pretty good at sorting out things. If it is just a shame issue though then I'll just respect that.

You using the monster that has nothing to do with a shinigami and any sort of grim reaper to be a monster class that features that martial discipline is quite alright, sure. As long as it isn't meant to represent Komachi in any way. Else you'd just end up with a worse representation than my ex-jiang shi.

Not sure about all the arguments on the good/evil alignment. Komachi in the Wild and Horned Hermit seemed like a pretty nice person. Even in presence of one of her kind's number one enemies she just stalks/watches over her to make sure that she ain't causing trouble among the humans and whatnot instead of reporting her to have one of hell's scary things sent at her. She knows where she lives but just lets her be as long as she keeps having a good influence. (While the wicked Seiga is actually being hunted down)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 27, 2013, 10:42:43 PM
If that helps, I found something very close to the shinigamis of Touhou in pathfinder.

Psychopomp. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/psychopomp)
In particularly the Vanth kind, as far as Komachi is concerned since one of their main functions is to protect souls along the River of Souls. They even fit the whole Enma-Shinigami relationship and administration thing.

A more aggressive/evil kind of psychopomp-like creature are the grim reapers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/grim-reaper).

They are thematically more pertinent than Yugoloths, for sure. Plus, it would make it possible for Good and sorta good Neutral characters to use that discipline fully without being concerned about themselves funding and supporting the projects of evil outsiders. >_>
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 28, 2013, 07:25:50 AM
The Vanth also have the other function of the non-Komachi Shinigami: dealing with things that won't die properly, such as immortals. :lmao

Though that's also specifically the job of the Morrigna.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 28, 2013, 11:05:48 AM
Yeah, but I got the impression that they were dealing with those only when the problem was on a large scale.
When instead of sending up to a squad of Morrigna they need more of a little army. That's when the guides, ferrymen and protector of the souls on their journey to their judgement gets to be called as footsoldiers.

But yeah. It's nice that the shinigami roles seem all there between the different psychopomps.
Then they have their badass soul-judges, the Yamarajes.  :bigeyes
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 28, 2013, 12:31:16 PM
If that helps, I found something very close to the shinigamis of Touhou in pathfinder.

Psychopomp. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/psychopomp)
In particularly the Vanth kind, as far as Komachi is concerned since one of their main functions is to protect souls along the River of Souls. They even fit the whole Enma-Shinigami relationship and administration thing.

No money? No boat? No lazyness? No kicking souls into the river when they don't pay you up? Just no. Besides Yugoloths already have their own organizations and hierarchies.


The Vanth also have the other function of the non-Komachi Shinigami: dealing with things that won't die properly, such as immortals. :lmao

Though that's also specifically the job of the Morrigna.
Maruts already have that job in standard D&D. :eh

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 28, 2013, 02:09:22 PM
They DO have boats. They are ferrymen of the River of Souls.

So... Okay, you prefer to use the monster that has nothing to do with death-gods instead of the actual high-fidelity death gods just because of the money thing? The greek psychopomps got the mythos of giving coins on the eyes to pay the ferrymen and everything so it is also actually part of their gig (Charon is a psychopomp - after a quick wiki, it seems that the shinigami themselves ARE psychopomps. You don't get any closer than this)...
The compatibility of everything else is overwhelming compared to that one detail. I don't see the laziness in the Yugoloth, nor do I see it as particularly important anyway considering only Komachi is lazy (and then again, laziness in Touhou is a very popular trait), not the shinigamis as a whole.

Quote
Besides Yugoloths already have their own organizations and hierarchies.
Yes, and they don't fit at all.

You got a shinigami-like scythe-carrying ferrymen of the river of soul creature ripe to use that fits the shinigami organization in Touhou, and you'd rather use a ferryman fiend that is part of a fiendgroup that has NOTHING to do with death, guiding souls and sending them to their judgement. They don't even commonly carry scythes. Something feels very wrong.

As if you had already done some work on the Yugoloth creature and just don't want to hassle yourself with replacing the maneuver gains they'd get with something else, totally adamant in pairing them together even though they are a terrible fit.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on August 28, 2013, 03:13:42 PM
I'm okay with os' choice instead of using those Psychopomps.
Because on principle, I hate Pathfinder  :cool

But that doesn't mean anything for this. >>

But then I don't see why it HAS to be Yugoloths if the only thing related to them is the fluff for the martial school. Unless you had some mechanics already in the works related to them? Otherwise all I see is the Outsider requirement for it...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 28, 2013, 03:19:47 PM
But then I don't see why it HAS to be Yugoloths if the only thing related to them is the fluff for the martial school. Unless you had some mechanics already in the works related to them? Otherwise all I see is the Outsider requirement for it...

The only thing the yugoloths seem to have that's relevant is that one type boats across the Styx.

The Maruts above do the shinigami's other duty of making the immortals die already.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 28, 2013, 04:33:59 PM
The Styx isn't the Sanzu river. It is similar but not the same.
The one trait that particularly seems to interest him is that they sometimes drive people into fiend ambushes along the way if they don't pay enough. Which is perhaps sorta like kicking them off the boat if they hesitate to pay everything.
Though I still don't see how that makes up for everything else that just doesn't work.
If they were the only option for a soul-boater available, maybe, and even then. Not the case.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on August 29, 2013, 12:23:11 AM
Hey, wanted to say that I really like the stuff on here. I am currently playing an Ancient Temple Warblade and it is really fun (even if my DM thinks I am a mite too strong  :P) and thanks for making it.

Would a Meiling School be appropriate do you think? There is a lot of stuff you can pilfer from EoSD, IaMP and Hisoutensoku for names and effects.

Also if I wanted to make a Meiling School would I just make a thread here or do I need posting rights and permissions?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 29, 2013, 02:01:27 AM
You pretty much got it.

-Ask first to make sure he isn't already working on what you want to make.
-If he doesn't go for it.
-Once done, he reviews and gives his stamp of approval once he's alright with it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 29, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
Hey, wanted to say that I really like the stuff on here. I am currently playing an Ancient Temple Warblade and it is really fun (even if my DM thinks I am a mite too strong  :P) and thanks for making it.

Would a Meiling School be appropriate do you think? There is a lot of stuff you can pilfer from EoSD, IaMP and Hisoutensoku for names and effects.

Also if I wanted to make a Meiling School would I just make a thread here or do I need posting rights and permissions?
You can do a thread here all right.

A Meiling school is something I've been trying to get out for over a year now, but I always get blocked whitout even geting beyond first level stuff.

Here's my notes on that matter, hope they'll help you:
(click to show/hide)


The Styx isn't the Sanzu river. It is similar but not the same.
The one trait that particularly seems to interest him is that they sometimes drive people into fiend ambushes along the way if they don't pay enough. Which is perhaps sorta like kicking them off the boat if they hesitate to pay everything.
Though I still don't see how that makes up for everything else that just doesn't work.
If they were the only option for a soul-boater available, maybe, and even then. Not the case.
As they say, it's all about the money. Komachi both uses it as a weapon and as a measurement stick of "Do I screw you over or not".

It doesn't feel out of the way for a yugoloth to pick up a scythle, they're proficient in them by default and everything. It would feel quite out of the way if a psychopomp ripped off its own wings and proceeded to accept bribes while screwing over those that don't pay it enough coin. ;)

EDIT:
(and re-checking just to make sure, nowhere in the scythle-wielding ones entry are boats ever mentioned (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/psychopomp/psychopomp-vanth)).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 29, 2013, 12:42:09 PM
"They have a boat! They must be the best fit!" is terrible logic. Touhou contains three (four?) types of shinigami. Only one has boats.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 29, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
Well thankfully Riverside View doesn't seek to cover all kinds of Shinigami, just the boat ones. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 29, 2013, 12:56:03 PM
Yes, the boat ones that don't use a boat 99% of the time.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 29, 2013, 01:29:02 PM
Some psychopomps of the mythos require money for passage.
If you actually paid attention while reading, you'd see it mentioned here and there that they are ferrymen of the River of Souls. There are ferrying souls. On a ferry. A boat.

Quote
It would feel quite out of the way if a psychopomp ripped off its own wings and proceeded to accept bribes while screwing over those that don't pay it enough coin.
Not sure why ripping wings off is necessary. The bribe in Touhou is not a bribe, it is part of the system and they are taking back money granted to them by that system. You are just twisting the interpretation so that it may fit your limited vision, and even then it is very poorly done. They can wield scythes but it isn't part of their creed. The others wield it like a symbol of their office, just like a shinigami, which are, again, psychopomps.
Quote
Well thankfully Riverside View doesn't seek to cover all kinds of Shinigami, just the boat ones.
Thankfully that doesn't change anything. One kind is specialized in being the guide/ferrymen of the river, have boats, they are shinigamis, and yugoloths aren't.

You can give the discipline to the yugoloth boaters, no problem, whatever, but don't go around calling Komachi and her kind yugoloths. She's a shinigami.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 29, 2013, 01:48:21 PM
Shinigami are, pretty much by definition, psychopomps.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on August 29, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
Hey, wanted to say that I really like the stuff on here. I am currently playing an Ancient Temple Warblade and it is really fun (even if my DM thinks I am a mite too strong  :P) and thanks for making it.

Would a Meiling School be appropriate do you think? There is a lot of stuff you can pilfer from EoSD, IaMP and Hisoutensoku for names and effects.

Also if I wanted to make a Meiling School would I just make a thread here or do I need posting rights and permissions?
You can do a thread here all right.

A Meiling school is something I've been trying to get out for over a year now, but I always get blocked whitout even geting beyond first level stuff.

Here's my notes on that matter, hope they'll help you:
(click to show/hide)

Well I'm rather looking forward to a school for Meiling now  :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 29, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
Some psychopomps of the mythos require money for passage.
If you actually paid attention while reading, you'd see it mentioned here and there that they are ferrymen of the River of Souls. There are ferrying souls. On a ferry. A boat.
You mean yugoloths. Pathfinder psychopomps most certainly aren't on a boat neither do they have ferries, unless you would be so kind as to provide the exact quote from the pathfinder site.

Don't care about any other sources really. Because  the most popular shinigami mythos out there don't have boats or ferry anything anywhere or care much about money or scythes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach_%28manga%29).

Quote
It would feel quite out of the way if a psychopomp ripped off its own wings and proceeded to accept bribes while screwing over those that don't pay it enough coin.
Not sure why ripping wings off is necessary.
Komachi, like other Maeroloths, doesn't have wings of any kind last time I checked.

The bribe in Touhou is not a bribe, it is part of the system and they are taking back money granted to them by that system. You are just twisting the interpretation so that it may fit your limited vision, and even then it is very poorly done. They can wield scythes but it isn't part of their creed. The others wield it like a symbol of their office, just like a shinigami, which are, again, psychopomps.
Which hardly give a damn about money, and are thus not Touhou shinigamis no matter how you try to twist it to your side.

Besides you somehow managed to spin Utusho into some kind of super scientist. Yugoloths fit Komachi like a glove compared to that.

Quote
Well thankfully Riverside View doesn't seek to cover all kinds of Shinigami, just the boat ones.
Thankfully that doesn't change anything. One kind is specialized in being the guide/ferrymen of the river, have boats, they are shinigamis, and yugoloths aren't.

You can give the discipline to the yugoloth boaters, no problem, whatever, but don't go around calling Komachi and her kind yugoloths. She's a shinigami.
Yes she is. Alas there's no official shinigami monster/class in D&D, so as the author of the school I get to pick the next closest thing. Which certainly aren't going to be altruistic bird-people that aren't on a boat on their own stat block fluff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 29, 2013, 04:02:59 PM
Quote
You mean yugoloths. Pathfinder psychopomps most certainly aren't on a boat neither do they have ferries, unless you would be so kind as to provide the exact quote from the pathfinder site.
Sure.
While similar in shape to the psychopomps who serve Pharasma and ferry souls to their fates upon the planes, reapers care little for mortal souls, reveling in the moment of death and dissolution of the impermanent, regardless of the elaborate bureaucracy that oversees the doomed.
Since you need the word itself. They also explicitly mention everywhere else that they guide the souls through the River of Souls.

Quote
Don't care about any other sources really. Because  the most popular shinigami mythos out there don't have boats or ferry anything anywhere or care much about money or scythes.
Hardly comparable to any classical mythology. I'll just file that with the rest of the nonsense.
After all, if a yugoloth can pass as a shinigami, what would be one of their natural enemies, everything goes.

Quote
Komachi, like other Maeroloths, doesn't have wings of any kind last time I checked.
And unlike Maeroloths, doesn't look like a Maeroloths. If appearance is all that matters, wait, it doesn't at all.

Quote
Which hardly give a damn about money, and are thus not Touhou shinigamis no matter how you try to twist it to your side.
Unless you mention that those do. With all that doesn't fit with the yugoloth, they are thus no more Touhou shinigamis no matter how desperately you try to twist it to your side. The pshychopomp is closer to them than everything else.

Quote
Besides you somehow managed to spin Utusho into some kind of super scientist. Yugoloths fit Komachi like a glove compared to that.
Very arguable. Again, if you have recommendations to fix that detail the Utsuho discipline, go ahead and share them.

Quote
Yes she is. Alas there's no official shinigami monster/class in D&D, so as the author of the school I get to pick the next closest thing. Which certainly aren't going to be altruistic bird-people that aren't on a boat on their own stat block fluff.
Except it is far from the next closest thing. They are closer to death angels than 'bird-people' and they actually have a scythe in their stat block. And in the fluff.
 As the author you can certainly perverse Touhou as much as you like and make it something else. Make your yugoloth, I don't care. Just call them shinigami here, and not yugoloths, because they aren't yugoloths.

They don't carry scythes, they don't ferry souls, they send nobody to be judged, they don't kick people into the river if they hesitate to pay (they just don't ferry them) and they don't belong to an organization that specifically involves itself with Death and the administration of lifespan and the final resting place of the dead. They do lead people into ambushes on a river if they don't pay generously though; so that makes them pirates and bandits. What a perfect fit.

DMs making their campaign setting will have the freedom of taking your yugoloth monster and call it a shinigami if they want, along with refluffing them entirely.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on August 29, 2013, 05:03:10 PM
I would just like to point out that I don't believe it was explicitly stated that Komachi=Yugoloth. All I can see is that Riverside View was started by Yugoloths but that many if not any Outsider can join the discipline's ranks. If I'm wrong and it was, then can't we just say that Komachi can just be among the "other outsiders joining this particular business of theirs" group?

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the real problem is having Yugoloths be the ones that created this venture/business/discipline, but rather that some are taking it as meaning Komachi herself is a Yugoloth and that this can all be resolved by simply saying Komachi herself probably isn't a Yugoloth, yeah? Maybe?  :-\
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on August 29, 2013, 05:25:36 PM
No, he is being very clear that he means for Komachi to be a Yugoloth and that any who uses this discipline to its fullest is financing the projects of evil outsiders keen on purging the universe of all that is good and pure and collect souls to trade between themselves as a currency or just to expend to oblivion in the construction of magic items or spell components.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on August 29, 2013, 07:50:09 PM
I was thinking a big thing could be for the Meiling manoeuvres which is similar to your idea is straight up combos, making it so that the effects are weaker but they stack and can be used 1 after the other. Prehaps with 'Initiation strikes' which could be full round actions and allow you to make several of the schools strikes one after the other. Although that would be awkward with the system of known manoeuvres and readied manoeuvres and would have really strange implications with the dual strike feature from Swordsages.

Meiling in the fighting games is very in your face and pressure filled, so maybe try to emulate that with strikes that force the opponent into doing certain things with saves against them (also gotta have manly poses, Meiling is all about the manly poses).

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on August 30, 2013, 11:42:34 AM
From her infosheet (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Komachi_Onozuka)
Quote
This money comes from the spirits of the dead, who pay the shinigami a toll to ferry them across it into Higan. The money for this toll comes about due to the connections they had with others while they were alive. More specifically, the toll is the total sum of the money used by others for one's sake during one's lifetime.
You get money from the connections you had in life to people. The amount of the toll is (roughly) what you owe everyone you left behind. So all the dead can pay for the trip. And it's always exactly as much as they have on them.

It's a test of attachment to the world. You can only move on to judgment when you've given up the coins that bind you. Dead children are stuck because they just can't let go.
Quote
"A river's width is the same as the breadth of the soul's history. How you lived decides the width of the river."
Basically the whole process is a test of character.

Do recall that PMiSS is a strictly in character writing, and explicitly contains some serious misconceptions. Because the author sometimes resorts to the time honored tradition of historians. Make up something that sounds like it might fit.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 30, 2013, 11:48:55 AM
PMiSS is, at least, more accurate than Symposium of Post-Mysticism. Because her two main sources for that? Marisa and Aya.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 31, 2013, 07:57:40 PM
I was thinking a big thing could be for the Meiling manoeuvres which is similar to your idea is straight up combos, making it so that the effects are weaker but they stack and can be used 1 after the other. Prehaps with 'Initiation strikes' which could be full round actions and allow you to make several of the schools strikes one after the other. Although that would be awkward with the system of known manoeuvres and readied manoeuvres and would have really strange implications with the dual strike feature from Swordsages.

Meiling in the fighting games is very in your face and pressure filled, so maybe try to emulate that with strikes that force the opponent into doing certain things with saves against them (also gotta have manly poses, Meiling is all about the manly poses).

Your thoughts?
That Mei Ling is the gate keeper of the Scarlet Mansion, so she has to be good at holding her ground. Forcing the opponent to keep away/nearby sounds good.

However I'm not a really big fan of nova mechanics that reward you for burning out as fast as possible, so how about her maneuvers offer benefits for your maneuvers in the following round? So a combo works over multiple rounds instead of just one.

Will also need anti-air stuff.

Sure.
While similar in shape to the psychopomps who serve Pharasma and ferry souls to their fates upon the planes, reapers care little for mortal souls, reveling in the moment of death and dissolution of the impermanent, regardless of the elaborate bureaucracy that oversees the doomed.

Since you need the word itself. They also explicitly mention everywhere else that they guide the souls through the River of Souls.
So the part where they're ferrymen is only ever mentioned in a completely diferent sourcebook on another creature's entry? :psyduck

Quote
Don't care about any other sources really. Because  the most popular shinigami mythos out there don't have boats or ferry anything anywhere or care much about money or scythes.
Hardly comparable to any classical mythology. I'll just file that with the rest of the nonsense.
After all, if a yugoloth can pass as a shinigami, what would be one of their natural enemies, everything goes.
Everybody is at everybody else's throat in one way or the other over the lower planes in case you missed the memo.

Quote
Komachi, like other Maeroloths, doesn't have wings of any kind last time I checked.
And unlike Maeroloths, doesn't look like a Maeroloths. If appearance is all that matters, wait, it doesn't at all.
Komachi, like most other "monstrous" Touhou characters, hapened to pick Deceivingly Innocent Form. Which would hide ugly skull face, but not wings (which can be observed in winged monsters like Wiggle and  Mystia).

Quote
Which hardly give a damn about money, and are thus not Touhou shinigamis no matter how you try to twist it to your side.
Unless you mention that those do. With all that doesn't fit with the yugoloth, they are thus no more Touhou shinigamis no matter how desperately you try to twist it to your side. The pshychopomp is closer to them than everything else.
"They(psychopomp) care little for the histories or personalities of the souls that pass them by, concerned only for the efficient and unvaried processing of each spirit to its final unremarkable eternity. Damnation and paradise are the same to them, as are heroes and villains, and no psychopomp cares one jot for great deeds left undone, other fates hanging in the balance, or bribes worth even a world's ransom."

That's the very opposite of a touhou Shinigami ferrywoman, that very much care about who they're carrying, if they have unfinished business and other fates linked to them.

Komachi's combat style is all about money and using spirits as delayed bombs, both things anathema to psychopomps, but quite nicely fit yugoloth mentality.

Quote
Besides you somehow managed to spin Utusho into some kind of super scientist. Yugoloths fit Komachi like a glove compared to that.
Very arguable. Again, if you have recommendations to fix that detail the Utsuho discipline, go ahead and share them.
Did it right after you first posted Divine Flame. We had long discussions, which are still there. I already made my peace with the final result.

Quote
Yes she is. Alas there's no official shinigami monster/class in D&D, so as the author of the school I get to pick the next closest thing. Which certainly aren't going to be altruistic bird-people that aren't on a boat on their own stat block fluff.
Except it is far from the next closest thing. They are closer to death angels than 'bird-people' and they actually have a scythe in their stat block. And in the fluff.
 As the author you can certainly perverse Touhou as much as you like and make it something else. Make your yugoloth, I don't care. Just call them shinigami here, and not yugoloths, because they aren't yugoloths.

They don't carry scythes, they don't ferry souls, they send nobody to be judged, they don't kick people into the river if they hesitate to pay (they just don't ferry them) and they don't belong to an organization that specifically involves itself with Death and the administration of lifespan and the final resting place of the dead. They do lead people into ambushes on a river if they don't pay generously though; so that makes them pirates and bandits. What a perfect fit.
Ironically enough, it says right on Komachi's profile that it isn't her job to judge people.

Anyway, both yugoloths and Komachi will end up kicking people into the river for (lack of) money. Psychopomps would never willingly throw dead people to the monsters living in the river, and most certainly not for money issues.

DMs making their campaign setting will have the freedom of taking your yugoloth monster and call it a shinigami if they want, along with refluffing them entirely.
Works both ways. Other DMs are free to make Riverside view the work of the most altruistic angels in existence and Death's Due money going straight to orphanages if they wish. ;)

I would just like to point out that I don't believe it was explicitly stated that Komachi=Yugoloth. All I can see is that Riverside View was started by Yugoloths but that many if not any Outsider can join the discipline's ranks. If I'm wrong and it was, then can't we just say that Komachi can just be among the "other outsiders joining this particular business of theirs" group?

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the real problem is having Yugoloths be the ones that created this venture/business/discipline, but rather that some are taking it as meaning Komachi herself is a Yugoloth and that this can all be resolved by simply saying Komachi herself probably isn't a Yugoloth, yeah? Maybe?  :-\
Again, Komachi is whatever you want it to be. There's a reason I'll never show an "official" stat block for any character, because I know that would just degenerate into endless discussions. Make her a redeemed Saint. Make her an infiltrated solar in disguise. Make her a pseudonatural half-golem vampire lord.

But I gonna put something in the base fluff that fits in your average D&D setting, and monster-that-kicks-people-in-the-river-because-of-money-issues sounds the best fit to me out there.

No, he is being very clear that he means for Komachi to be a Yugoloth and that any who uses this discipline to its fullest is financing the projects of evil outsiders keen on purging the universe of all that is good and pure and collect souls to trade between themselves as a currency or just to expend to oblivion in the construction of magic items or spell components.
There are good reasons why Komachi warns people that dying is not a nice thing. :p

(however for the record, Yugoloth don't necessarily want to purge all good and pure in the universe, since they thrive in competition among other factions. So removing the forces of goodness and purity suddenly means the Devils and Demons have more free troops to send against the Yugoloths and they have an harder time just standing on the sidelines).

From her infosheet (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Komachi_Onozuka)
Quote
This money comes from the spirits of the dead, who pay the shinigami a toll to ferry them across it into Higan. The money for this toll comes about due to the connections they had with others while they were alive. More specifically, the toll is the total sum of the money used by others for one's sake during one's lifetime.
You get money from the connections you had in life to people. The amount of the toll is (roughly) what you owe everyone you left behind. So all the dead can pay for the trip. And it's always exactly as much as they have on them.

It's a test of attachment to the world. You can only move on to judgment when you've given up the coins that bind you. Dead children are stuck because they just can't let go.
Not exactly. In her original profile:

if someone has done too much evil during their lifetime, they may even not be able to cross the river.

A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money.


So even if you give all your money, if it isn't enough to amuse Komachi, she'll make sure you don't cross.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 31, 2013, 08:11:09 PM
Sure.
While similar in shape to the psychopomps who serve Pharasma and ferry souls to their fates upon the planes, reapers care little for mortal souls, reveling in the moment of death and dissolution of the impermanent, regardless of the elaborate bureaucracy that oversees the doomed.

Since you need the word itself. They also explicitly mention everywhere else that they guide the souls through the River of Souls.
So the part where they're ferrymen is only ever mentioned in a completely diferent sourcebook on another creature's entry? :psyduck

Since when have sourcebooks ever been known for good layout?

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Quote
Don't care about any other sources really. Because  the most popular shinigami mythos out there don't have boats or ferry anything anywhere or care much about money or scythes.
Hardly comparable to any classical mythology. I'll just file that with the rest of the nonsense.
After all, if a yugoloth can pass as a shinigami, what would be one of their natural enemies, everything goes.
Everybody is at everybody else's throat in one way or the other over the lower planes in case you missed the memo.

The lower planes hate everything and its mother.

The rest are considerably less bitchy. That seems to fit more.

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Quote
Komachi, like other Maeroloths, doesn't have wings of any kind last time I checked.
And unlike Maeroloths, doesn't look like a Maeroloths. If appearance is all that matters, wait, it doesn't at all.
Komachi, like most other "monstrous" Touhou characters, hapened to pick Deceivingly Innocent Form. Which would hide ugly skull face, but not wings (which can be observed in winged monsters like Wiggle and  Mystia).

This requires that Komachi have eaten someone. Believable for the youkai? Totally. Ferryman of the Dead? Eh.

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Quote
Yes she is. Alas there's no official shinigami monster/class in D&D, so as the author of the school I get to pick the next closest thing. Which certainly aren't going to be altruistic bird-people that aren't on a boat on their own stat block fluff.
Except it is far from the next closest thing. They are closer to death angels than 'bird-people' and they actually have a scythe in their stat block. And in the fluff.
 As the author you can certainly perverse Touhou as much as you like and make it something else. Make your yugoloth, I don't care. Just call them shinigami here, and not yugoloths, because they aren't yugoloths.

They don't carry scythes, they don't ferry souls, they send nobody to be judged, they don't kick people into the river if they hesitate to pay (they just don't ferry them) and they don't belong to an organization that specifically involves itself with Death and the administration of lifespan and the final resting place of the dead. They do lead people into ambushes on a river if they don't pay generously though; so that makes them pirates and bandits. What a perfect fit.
Ironically enough, it says right on Komachi's profile that it isn't her job to judge people.

Anyway, both yugoloths and Komachi will end up kicking people into the river for (lack of) money. Psychopomps would never willingly throw dead people to the monsters living in the river, and most certainly not for money issues.

FFS, it's not 'lack of money'. It's for not paying money that exists just for this journey. If you're too attached to life to move on, go deal with the fishies for a while. The whole of buddhist cosmology means you'll get dragged out eventually.

Quote
I would just like to point out that I don't believe it was explicitly stated that Komachi=Yugoloth. All I can see is that Riverside View was started by Yugoloths but that many if not any Outsider can join the discipline's ranks. If I'm wrong and it was, then can't we just say that Komachi can just be among the "other outsiders joining this particular business of theirs" group?

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the real problem is having Yugoloths be the ones that created this venture/business/discipline, but rather that some are taking it as meaning Komachi herself is a Yugoloth and that this can all be resolved by simply saying Komachi herself probably isn't a Yugoloth, yeah? Maybe?  :-\
Again, Komachi is whatever you want it to be. There's a reason I'll never show an "official" stat block for any character, because I know that would just degenerate into endless discussions. Make her a redeemed Saint. Make her an infiltrated solar in disguise. Make her a pseudonatural half-golem vampire lord.

But I gonna put something in the base fluff that fits in your average D&D setting, and monster-that-kicks-people-in-the-river-because-of-money-issues sounds the best fit to me out there.

Piratical embodiments of evil totally fit more than anything actually involved with the role and purpose of shinigami. Money clearly defines everything about them--not killing things that won't otherwise die, not ferrying the dead, and not making sure the cycle of reincarnation is working.

From her infosheet (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Komachi_Onozuka)
Quote
This money comes from the spirits of the dead, who pay the shinigami a toll to ferry them across it into Higan. The money for this toll comes about due to the connections they had with others while they were alive. More specifically, the toll is the total sum of the money used by others for one's sake during one's lifetime.
You get money from the connections you had in life to people. The amount of the toll is (roughly) what you owe everyone you left behind. So all the dead can pay for the trip. And it's always exactly as much as they have on them.

It's a test of attachment to the world. You can only move on to judgment when you've given up the coins that bind you. Dead children are stuck because they just can't let go.
Not exactly. In her original profile:

if someone has done too much evil during their lifetime, they may even not be able to cross the river.

A shinigami judges one to be good or bad not by the amount of crimes, but by money.


So even if you give all your money, if it isn't enough to amuse Komachi, she'll make sure you don't cross.

[/quote]

If someone has done too much evil, they might not cross.

You're judged based on spiritual currency.

You are not judged based on material wealth.

This has gotten beyond ridiculous. You keep insisting that 'evil mercenary' is a perfect fit, because they have to pay. Pay what? Oh, money that exists only when you die, and exists simply to... err... pay Komachi? Oh, that's totally evil. Wanting something that's otherwise useless is of course evil. :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 31, 2013, 09:02:10 PM
This requires that Komachi have eaten someone. Believable for the youkai? Totally. Ferryman of the Dead? Eh.
At least a couple of her spellcards consist of her noming the spirits of the dead. :p

FFS, it's not 'lack of money'. It's for not paying money that exists just for this journey. If you're too attached to life to move on, go deal with the fishies for a while. The whole of buddhist cosmology means you'll get dragged out eventually.
Buddhist cosmology is next door. Komachi aknowledges that in her line of work, spirits can be permanently destroyed.


Quote
I would just like to point out that I don't believe it was explicitly stated that Komachi=Yugoloth. All I can see is that Riverside View was started by Yugoloths but that many if not any Outsider can join the discipline's ranks. If I'm wrong and it was, then can't we just say that Komachi can just be among the "other outsiders joining this particular business of theirs" group?

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the real problem is having Yugoloths be the ones that created this venture/business/discipline, but rather that some are taking it as meaning Komachi herself is a Yugoloth and that this can all be resolved by simply saying Komachi herself probably isn't a Yugoloth, yeah? Maybe?  :-\
Again, Komachi is whatever you want it to be. There's a reason I'll never show an "official" stat block for any character, because I know that would just degenerate into endless discussions. Make her a redeemed Saint. Make her an infiltrated solar in disguise. Make her a pseudonatural half-golem vampire lord.

But I gonna put something in the base fluff that fits in your average D&D setting, and monster-that-kicks-people-in-the-river-because-of-money-issues sounds the best fit to me out there.

Piratical embodiments of evil totally fit more than anything actually involved with the role and purpose of shinigami. Money clearly defines everything about them--not killing things that won't otherwise die, not ferrying the dead, and not making sure the cycle of reincarnation is working.
Ferryng the dead is what makes them money, so not mutually exclusive.

Komachi however indeed lets  cheeky celestials walk away alive, and indeed uses  excess spirits as bombs, thus screwing over the cycle. As long as the excess spirits aren't piling up in such a way they start mass-possessing flowers, she really doesn't care much.


If someone has done too much evil, they might not cross.

You're judged based on spiritual currency.

You are not judged based on material wealth.

This has gotten beyond ridiculous. You keep insisting that 'evil mercenary' is a perfect fit, because they have to pay. Pay what? Oh, money that exists only when you die, and exists simply to... err... pay Komachi? Oh, that's totally evil. Wanting something that's otherwise useless is of course evil. :eh
Yuyuko is dead, but she still spends money.

Plus:
Quote from: Komachi defeating Yuyuko
Speaking of which, my boss said there are too few reincarnations lately.

When you're not busy, why don't you go look and fix up some appropriate ghosts for me?

What? It's okay if they're only shells, since it's hard for me if there are more humans around here.

Quote from: Komachi beating Utusho
The present Hell became a place where oni are well disciplined
and injustices happen only rarely.

The oni of Old Hell were in cahoots with the sinners,
such that there were even souls who didn't want to leave hell.

You guys should, rather than a Hell like that,
try to look for work at the new Hell. How's that sound?

So Komachi aknowledges that:
-She works in hell.
-There are multiple hells and philosophies of dealing with the dead spirits, and she's only really working in one of them.
-She's seeking to rig the system to favor her, human souls be literally damned.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 31, 2013, 09:17:43 PM
This requires that Komachi have eaten someone. Believable for the youkai? Totally. Ferryman of the Dead? Eh.
At least a couple of her spellcards consist of her noming the spirits of the dead. :p

Does that fulfill the requirement? I thought it was kill and eat someone. Can't kill the dead.

Quote
FFS, it's not 'lack of money'. It's for not paying money that exists just for this journey. If you're too attached to life to move on, go deal with the fishies for a while. The whole of buddhist cosmology means you'll get dragged out eventually.
Buddhist cosmology is next door. Komachi aknowledges that in her line of work, spirits can be permanently destroyed.

Sanzu River.

Serves the yama.

Cycle of Reincarnation.

Buddhist Cosmology is go.

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Quote
I would just like to point out that I don't believe it was explicitly stated that Komachi=Yugoloth. All I can see is that Riverside View was started by Yugoloths but that many if not any Outsider can join the discipline's ranks. If I'm wrong and it was, then can't we just say that Komachi can just be among the "other outsiders joining this particular business of theirs" group?

Because honestly, it doesn't look like the real problem is having Yugoloths be the ones that created this venture/business/discipline, but rather that some are taking it as meaning Komachi herself is a Yugoloth and that this can all be resolved by simply saying Komachi herself probably isn't a Yugoloth, yeah? Maybe?  :-\
Again, Komachi is whatever you want it to be. There's a reason I'll never show an "official" stat block for any character, because I know that would just degenerate into endless discussions. Make her a redeemed Saint. Make her an infiltrated solar in disguise. Make her a pseudonatural half-golem vampire lord.

But I gonna put something in the base fluff that fits in your average D&D setting, and monster-that-kicks-people-in-the-river-because-of-money-issues sounds the best fit to me out there.

Piratical embodiments of evil totally fit more than anything actually involved with the role and purpose of shinigami. Money clearly defines everything about them--not killing things that won't otherwise die, not ferrying the dead, and not making sure the cycle of reincarnation is working.
Ferryng the dead is what makes them money, so not mutually exclusive.

Komachi however indeed lets  cheeky celestials walk away alive, and indeed uses  excess spirits as bombs, thus screwing over the cycle. As long as the excess spirits aren't piling up in such a way they start mass-possessing flowers, she really doesn't care much.

That's because the second two functions are done by different shinigami. She didn't kill Tenshi because it's not her job; the entire cycle is overseen by others. She's a chronic slacker.

And careful about using spellcards as an indication for what's going on; Cirno apparently breaks thermodynamics completely, Sakuya is secretly Dio Brando, and Eirin uses putting the Earth inside a cage as an attack. None of these seem entirely reasonable. :eh

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If someone has done too much evil, they might not cross.

You're judged based on spiritual currency.

You are not judged based on material wealth.

This has gotten beyond ridiculous. You keep insisting that 'evil mercenary' is a perfect fit, because they have to pay. Pay what? Oh, money that exists only when you die, and exists simply to... err... pay Komachi? Oh, that's totally evil. Wanting something that's otherwise useless is of course evil. :eh
Yuyuko is dead, but she still spends money.

... Yuyuko also rules over the netherworld, will never pass on so long as she has her body sealing the Saigyou Ayakashi, and is a ghost princess. Starting after PCB, she also seems to have no desire to stick to the underworld. I cannot see how she has any bearing on the money carried by the recently deceased, any more than you can use Maribel to comment on Rukia. Completely different scenarios.

She's had over a thousand years to pick stuff up; why the hell wouldn't she have actual money?

Quote
Plus:
Quote from: Komachi defeating Yuyuko
Speaking of which, my boss said there are too few reincarnations lately.

When you're not busy, why don't you go look and fix up some appropriate ghosts for me?

What? It's okay if they're only shells, since it's hard for me if there are more humans around here.

Quote from: Komachi beating Utusho
The present Hell became a place where oni are well disciplined
and injustices happen only rarely.

The oni of Old Hell were in cahoots with the sinners,
such that there were even souls who didn't want to leave hell.

You guys should, rather than a Hell like that,
try to look for work at the new Hell. How's that sound?

So Komachi aknowledges that:
-She works in hell.
-There are multiple philosophies of dealing with the dead spirits, and she's only really working in one of them.
-She's seeking to rig the system to favor her, human souls be literally damned.

-No, she's saying that she knows there's another hell. Which there is. The SA Hell was abandoned for being too small, and they had to start putting the souls of the damned elsewhere.
-2&3: You pulled these conclusions out of your ass. It doesn't follow from the stuff you copied at all. She's too lazy to do her job herself (and ghosts have to pass on eventually) and she tries to recruit Utsuho. Who, as a hell raven, COMES FROM HELL. :|
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on September 01, 2013, 04:28:52 AM
Cosmology wise, Yuyuko's realm is the Netherworld where the ghosts that have been judged go, if they hadn't committed enough sins to require punishing off, but also had not acquired enough virtue to reincarnate into a higher being, and are just waiting for reincarnation, probably as an animal or human. Sort of like Purgatory really.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 01, 2013, 05:01:32 AM
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Everybody is at everybody else's throat in one way or the other over the lower planes in case you missed the memo.
Irrelevant. You are turning what would be the natural enemies of the shinigami into the shinigami.
Their goals are directly opposed.

Quote
Komachi, like most other "monstrous" Touhou characters, hapened to pick Deceivingly Innocent Form. Which would hide ugly skull face, but not wings (which can be observed in winged monsters like Wiggle and  Mystia).
Not necessarily.
They could be using magic or magic items to alter their appearance, or simply something in Gensokyo makes every special creatures appear as girls to the human eye. Even sexless creatures.
Winged creatures with that feat also don't even have to keep the wings on their humanoid-like form. They have to keep some characteristic of their base appearance but the way it is worded strongly suggests that the player decides what those are; meaning it doesn't have to be the wings.
Just look at your Deceivingly Innocent Green Dragon example; no wings. I don't like to sound harsh but I'm surprised I have to explain you this, though perhaps you do know how you made your feat work and you're just making more desperate attempts to justify it by clinging to what little erroneous detail could appear to partially prove your point on the smallest scale.
But as you said, we're not making a stat block for the actual Touhou characters so appearances really do not matter.

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That's the very opposite of a touhou Shinigami ferrywoman, that very much care about who they're carrying, if they have unfinished business and other fates linked to them.
Yugoloths don't fit that profile either. They just want the money and get rid of you. Their emotion for other beings are also very limited past the desire to see others suffer.
So by your logic they are even less worthy of being the shinigami.

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Komachi's combat style is all about money and using spirits as delayed bombs, both things anathema to psychopomps, but quite nicely fit yugoloth mentality.
Maeroloths' take payments but their combat style doesn't involve money or exploding spirits either, nor do they involve scythes. Their profile says they fight like pirates by sending you in ambushes, and, oh, they bite. Encouraging undeath isn't very shinigami-like either, since their job is to send souls to their afterlife upon death and your dudes got Animate Dead as a SLA. Your exploding spirits actually are in the favor of psychopomps; spirits during fights are not actually souls (similar to the spirits in Ten Desires) and the evil/malignant spirits of touhou are described as special ghosts that are the result of what happens when a youkai takes over those waiting to cross the river before a shinigami gets them across. So that means that by exploding them around she is probably doing shinigami work by releasing them.
Using money as a weapon is also very unnatural for a yugoloth. They are greedy and want money, so throwing it around to hurt people is plain stupid. They would hoard it instead. Even if the gold returns to Yugoloth coffers when used, what matters is *personal wealth* Screw the rest of the organization.
On the other hand, a shinigami that actually doesn't really care about wealth wouldn't mind using it as a weapon. Especially money generated for the symbolic transition from the physical realm to one's judgement and afterlife. Using that symbol in combat to help them accomplish their objectives is actually quite fitting:
The souls give it to gain passage and the guide uses it to protect them until they cross. While what little they have is enough to gain passage, having more to give to the shinigami would thus logically increase the odds of safely getting though as you're giving it more to use to defend you and to accomplish any other shinigami task involving battle. It is perfect.
Beyond the use in combat, that money in Touhou is otherwise of no importance to the shinigami either. The fares for crossing the river go to the budget of the The Ministry of What's Right and What's Wrong, not to the shinigami itself, so what they don't use from the crossing fares in battle goes straight to their coffers (and as per the fluff of the school, what is used in combat goes to their coffers as well anyway, so there are no losses). The Ministry of What's Right and What's Wrong being those receiving the money used by non-shinigami using Death's Due is also for the better fluff-wise. The Yugoloths would make a terrible replacement for that ministry.
So much for combat style being an argument in your favor.

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Ironically enough, it says right on Komachi's profile that it isn't her job to judge people.
So what? Where is the irony? Neither do the psychopomps themselves. Pharasma, the divine figure of Death, Fate, Prophesy and Rebirth, (which fits with the principle of another being that isn't the shinigami, the Yama in Touhou's case; Shikieiki, is another great fit) is the one doing the judging.

Quote
Anyway, both yugoloths and Komachi will end up kicking people into the river for (lack of) money. Psychopomps would never willingly throw dead people to the monsters living in the river, and most certainly not for money issues.
No, the Maeroloths don't do that. It is against their nature. They take their payment, then they do their job. If someone paid more to get you in a pirate ambush, tough luck. The Maeroloths respect their contract by carrying you across the river, it just unfortunately happens that they have pirate buddies on that river waiting for you.
Therefore, yugoloths cannot be shinigami based on that principle. Other similarities to the Touhou shinigami will have to be used.

Quote
Works both ways. Other DMs are free to make Riverside view the work of the most altruistic angels in existence and Death's Due money going straight to orphanages if they wish. ;)
Yes but I thought you wanted to portray Touhou in this Touhou homebrew section. If you call their shinigami something else than a shinigami, it isn't quite about Touhou but becomes something about fiend pirates that somehow developed a martial discipline dealing with Death themes. It is made to be used in Dnd so DM adaptation can be made from the Touhou stuff. Otherwise, why even bother making the fluff based on Touhou if you're not gonna use Touhou.

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if someone has done too much evil during their lifetime, they may even not be able to cross the river.
That quote doesn't actually suggests that the shinigami doesn't allow them to cross the river. It suggests that particularly wicked people are simply unable to do it for some reason. Perhaps because they get turned into evil spirits before a shinigami gets to guide them through the river.
A yugoloth wouldn't care about evil people going through as long as they get paid. They still wouldn't ferry souls around though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Atmo on September 05, 2013, 08:00:23 AM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2013, 08:09:24 AM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Any actual evidence for the 'stronger than others of their kind' thing?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 05, 2013, 09:13:45 AM
Quote
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).
I strongly doubt that. We've seen a LOT of kappas and they all appear human-like, and they are all girls. Perhaps some of those are male, but for some reason they all appear as girls. To us, anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2013, 11:46:09 AM
Wriggle, Mystia, Rumia, Kogasa, pre-Yatagarasu Utsuho, Bukkitloli, and possibly the spider herself are all human. They're also all pretty damn weak, so far as things go (at least we know that Kogasa's human body is a fake, seeing as she's the umbrella and all...).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on September 05, 2013, 09:21:20 PM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Well, youkai/demons taking/having a human form is a normal thing outside of Touhou.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 05, 2013, 09:37:07 PM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Well, youkai/demons taking/having a human form is a normal thing outside of Touhou.

Not to the same extent, though.

And then we get Yukari... :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on September 05, 2013, 11:22:22 PM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Well, youkai/demons taking/having a human form is a normal thing outside of Touhou.

Not to the same extent, though.

And then we get Yukari... :lmao

Yeah but the extent isn't it, just the premise. Touhou just runs with it at mach speed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on September 06, 2013, 01:30:47 AM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Well, youkai/demons taking/having a human form is a normal thing outside of Touhou.

Not to the same extent, though.

And then we get Yukari... :lmao
Well in Kaidan stuff, most of the ones with form(that is, more than just a noise or shape in the dark), can take human form, though it's not that hard to shock them back to their true form. Nowhere as many cute young girls though. That's for sure.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 06, 2013, 06:49:57 AM
Youkai from Touhou have human forms only when they are stronger than others of their kind. And male youkai exists too, but ZUN don't want to show any of them... (at least male humans do exist).

Well, youkai/demons taking/having a human form is a normal thing outside of Touhou.

Not to the same extent, though.

And then we get Yukari... :lmao
Well in Kaidan stuff, most of the ones with form(that is, more than just a noise or shape in the dark), can take human form, though it's not that hard to shock them back to their true form. Nowhere as many cute young girls though. That's for sure.

Kaidan?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on September 06, 2013, 07:54:48 AM
Japanese ghost stories. Most youkai originate in those. It seems the nearly human youkai make the best ghost stories.

A lot of them don't really have much more existence than a noise or bump in the night though. I mean just look at the Sunekosuri (http://www.obakemono.com/obake/sunekosuri/).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on September 06, 2013, 08:18:20 AM
Japanese ghost stories. Most youkai originate in those. It seems the nearly human youkai make the best ghost stories.

A lot of them don't really have much more existence than a noise or bump in the night though. I mean just look at the Sunekosuri (http://www.obakemono.com/obake/sunekosuri/).

Maybe if it actually did something besides run between their legs.......That's just a dog...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 06, 2013, 08:24:31 AM
Ah, right. Ghost stories tend to be kind of disappointing. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: veekie on September 06, 2013, 08:38:34 AM
Japanese ghost stories. Most youkai originate in those. It seems the nearly human youkai make the best ghost stories.

A lot of them don't really have much more existence than a noise or bump in the night though. I mean just look at the Sunekosuri (http://www.obakemono.com/obake/sunekosuri/).

Maybe if it actually did something besides run between their legs.......That's just a dog...
Looking it up further, it seems you feel a dog rubbing your legs but you don't see one. It's just an invisible, overly friendly dog.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 09, 2013, 04:46:42 PM
Races, huh? With abilities based off of maneuvers? Handy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on September 09, 2013, 09:41:42 PM
I've got a question. Is there any explanation for determining which disciplines affect incorporeal/ethereal targets fully and which ones only have a 50% chance to affect them? Border of Life, Plain History, and Ancient Temple can fully affect them, while Crystalized Silver and Lunatic Princess have 50% effect chance and Doll Judgement doesn't mention whether it affects them or not. Septette for the Dead doesn't even mention if its maneuvers are supernatural, that I can see, nor if they affect incorporeal/ethereal.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 09, 2013, 09:52:04 PM
A good point to mention.
Until mentioned otherwise, maneuvers by default are Ex abilities and do not affect a particular interaction with incorporeal targets.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: VennDygrem on September 09, 2013, 10:49:10 PM
I suppose it's left up to a weapon or maneuver to specify, in that case. It still seems odd for such magical and/or supernatural-seeming abilities of Septette for the Dead to be regarded as (Ex). Making magical blood weapons and glowing rains of blood and summoning demons and such just doesn't scream 'extraordinary' to me vs. 'supernatural' :P

Regardless, I wonder what the determining factor is for which supernatural disciplines affect either fully or 50% against such targets.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 10, 2013, 01:31:43 AM
I meant that this is technically how it works.
I doubt it was intended. Osle has a tendency to avoid specifying whether an ability is Su or Ex, leaving those using his stuff to figure out if it feels like a Su ability or not when he doesn't explicitly mentions what is what.
It usually is rather easy to figure out, though there is the occasional enigma.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 10, 2013, 11:35:33 AM
I've got a question. Is there any explanation for determining which disciplines affect incorporeal/ethereal targets fully and which ones only have a 50% chance to affect them? Border of Life, Plain History, and Ancient Temple can fully affect them, while Crystalized Silver and Lunatic Princess have 50% effect chance and Doll Judgement doesn't mention whether it affects them or not. Septette for the Dead doesn't even mention if its maneuvers are supernatural, that I can see, nor if they affect incorporeal/ethereal.
Clarified that Doll Judgment has 50% chance of affecting incorporeal/ethereal (it was my first ToBhou school and it shows). Sepette for the Dead will be taken care of later.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 10, 2013, 11:45:16 AM
Ah, thought I'd mention; Since I'm the one who proposed the use of the psychopomp, I'd be glad to help making their monster races.
I'd be more comfortable with you making the Vanth, since you made Riverside View and you're pretty darn good at making touhou-maneuver-using monster classes, but I wouldn't mind making it as well to return the honor you made me by making the Nuclear Dragon.

I've an interesting mechanism in mind for how they could all interact with each other so I believe I could make them relatively quickly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 24, 2013, 12:40:52 PM
Ok, I'm having a bit of trouble deciding on the next school to tackle after Riverside View is polished. Or to be more exact, the next forbidden school.

They would be Captain Murasa's "Drowned Captain" and Rin Kaenbyou's "Corpse Voyage". The "mother" schools would be Riverside View and Border of life.

The question is to who I connect each.

Murasa's a drowning victim. She pilots the biggest boat of them all. She also hates other boats. She could've been looking for revenge against the ferrymen that sent her for a dive while she was alive (Riverside View). Or I could focus on the whole vengeful ghost aspect that seeks to drag down others with her, which would put her more directly at odds with Border of Life.

Orin's on the other hand a carrier of the dead. But she goes by land with a wheelbarrow instead of river by boat. She has some ability to create/control undead spirits of her own (and to get others to pretend they're zombies as well). She can be focused as either a direct rival to the whole ferrymen service (Riverside View), or an outright desecrater of the dead that uses their corpses as fuel for hell (Border of Life).

Not much of ideas for forbidden penalties yet tough.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on September 24, 2013, 01:12:25 PM
Rin, traditionally, makes off with the dead. As it is, she's responsible for feeding them to a furnace to keep Hell hot (well, before it shut down).

Really, her job's basically the opposite of Komachi's (transferring spirits? BURNING BODIES), even though both are necessary, so I'd go with Rin.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on September 24, 2013, 06:28:53 PM
Rin wouldn't really be a rival to Komachi since she works in hell and is meant to do whatever the agents administrating hells do.
She is indeed sort of thematically opposed. Komachi collects the spirits but Rin doesn't really care about those and settles for the corpses. She can control evil spirits, which goes well with the fact that those are plentiful in Hell. She fits with Border of Life as well because as Yuyuko administers one of the afterlives, the one with ghost, Rin works in the management of another afterlife, some Hell.
Murasa has the giant boat and generally haunts and causes shipwreck. Could be border of life merely for being some kind of revenent youkai and could be riverside view cauz she got a ship.

Considering Forbidden School don't need to be directly related to the school they are based on, you could really go either way but I'd suggest going for the one with the best transition.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 05:55:08 PM
So now that Chinese Star is done (barring random improvements via feedback and other such devices.) What school do people want to see next?

I was thinking a Celestial school (Tenshi + Iku), a school of the Devas of the Mountain (Suika, Yuugi and any other oni I forget) or maybe a school based off Sakuya (Similar to This one (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5712.0) by Prime32 but unfortunately not finished.)

On the subject of the Forbidden Schools, I agree with Anomander in which a fluff connection can be made for both in any combination so the one which mechanics fit better seems the way to go for me. I would personally go Rin -> Yuyuko mostly for the corpse and spirit manipulation (like the zombie faeries.) and Komachi -> Murasa because of the vengeful spirit vs spirit ferrier (and komachi destroys spirits) and they've both got their titanics!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 06:04:10 PM
Either Sakuya or the Devas (Kasen is probably a third, but she's not really much use here); Tenshi seems to be in a weird sort of limbo where she's potentially tied to far too many schools at the moment. And Iku's not even the same type of creature. @_@
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 24, 2013, 06:17:10 PM
Speaking of Forbidden Schools, since you went ahead and got Chinese Star done, I've been working on its Forbidden School, placeholder name Sky Ruin, aka Giant Catish+UFO nun with giant angry cloud. Focuses on overwhelming raw power and getting bigger.

Suika was actually one of the first characters that inspired me to start this whole thing, but ended up being delayed again and again. However it would not be "devas of the mountain", but DRUNKEN DEMON drink until everybody drops!. Yuugi would be her forbidden school (fight with alchool in hand while resisting to drink it!) :P

Sakuya was another that I would like to tackle down the road, altough I would take quite a different route from Prime32. But Sakuya is one of those characters that could actually justify two schools.

Don't really care much about Tenshi, can't even remember who Iku is, but don't let that stop you from tackling those.

And since I'm at it, in the other day I made a draft for yet another school, Princess Union-Never Fight Alone! Aka a school for leading mobs/units. Atracting expendable mooks, cavalry charges, shield walls,  literal battlefield manipulation. What do you mean Yggdra isn't even a Touhou character? She's a flat-chested girl from a fantasy land where combats are resolved with a spellcard system! That's good enough for me! :p

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 06:28:45 PM
Speaking of Forbidden Schools, since you went ahead and got Chinese Star done, I've been working on its Forbidden School, placeholder name Sky Ruin, aka Giant Catish+UFO nun with giant angry cloud. Focuses on overwhelming raw power and getting bigger.

Suika was actually one of the first characters that inspired me to start this whole thing, but ended up being delayed again and again. However it would not be "devas of the mountain", but DRUNKEN DEMON drink until everybody drops!. Yuugi would be her forbidden school (fight with alchool in hand while resisting to drink it!) :P

You mean Yuugi, whose sprite has her taking a sip every few seconds? :p

Quote
Don't really care much about Tenshi, can't even remember who Iku is, but don't let that stop you from tackling those.

Messenger of the Dragon Palace, oarfish, also from SWR.

Quote
And since I'm at it, in the other day I made a draft for yet another school, Princess Union-Never Fight Alone! Aka a school for leading mobs/units. Atracting expendable mooks, cavalry charges, shield walls,  literal battlefield manipulation. What do you mean Yggdra isn't even a Touhou character? She's a flat-chested girl from a fantasy land where combats are resolved with a spellcard system! That's good enough for me! :p

If it's not Touhou, don't put it in the Touhou-based subforum. That's silly. Especially as they're not all flat chested in Touhou anyway. :P
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 06:38:10 PM
Never Fight Alone! sounds like it could be fun :D commanding fleets of expendables to their deaths is always hilarious.

The reason I grouped Iku and Tenshi together is that they abuse the weather quite a lot with Ikus' lightning strikes and generally electrical stuff and Tenshis' sword Hisou no Tsurugi although, now that I think about it they don't have much in common other than Iku does reports of earthquakes to Tenshis' family and decides to try and punish Tenshi for being an idiot and wrecking the place with earthquakes.

Sky Ruin sounds pretty sweet.

I could see Tenshi being all about interacting with the environment and such but it doesn't really work without the artifacts that she uses and Iku could be pretty cool but hard to make particularly different from Desert Wind (although it wouldn't be impossible to make them very different).

I would probably make a Sakuya school less about the time manipulation, more about the crazy knife tricks with a little bit of time stuff sprinkled in although whatever your ideas were would be cool to hear.

I'll leave Suika to you if you are up for it then :thumb.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 06:46:37 PM
The issue is that Tenshi's actual abilities are being hilariously strong/tough and earthquakes. The Sword of Hisou is the weather stuff. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 06:56:41 PM
Yeah, even the earthquakes aren't all her since she uses her families keystones to set em off even if I think her abilties are partially to do with manipulation of earth. So she just has 'being a celestial and having artifacts' to her combat abilities. Not a good basis for a school me thinks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 07:03:32 PM
I dunno 'having artifacts' works for Kaguya. And the keystones at least are somewhat generic (her family was in charge of them in one area, hence the eventual elevation to being celestials); it's just the sword that's an issue.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 10:23:47 PM
While it works for Kaguya, I think I will leave the artifacts business to her as it leaves her school more unique than the standard school.

Now for Sakuya I was thinking of manoeuvres like this;

(click to show/hide)

Obviously a quick and dirty idea, but I want to know if it feels interesting enough for the crazy knife throwing maid extraordinaire.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 10:26:10 PM
Well, deceitless sleight of hand is indeed something she takes pride in, if you don't go in for stopping time. Trickery and confusion is as valid a basis for a Sakuya school as timestop.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 10:28:44 PM
That was the whole gist of the idea, I mean she can manipulate space as well as time, so why not go crazy with that sort of stuff.

Appearing to be where you aren't, attacking people who should be safe, just being everywhere and nowhere, all that good stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 10:39:09 PM
Also known as stopping time, wandering over, tossing something, and wandering back? :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 10:59:34 PM
You could look at it like that, or you could look it as mad sick crazy knife skills. That is the sweet part about Sakuyas' abilities :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on October 24, 2013, 11:37:41 PM
For Tenshi, the need for artifacts isn't really much of a concern unless a Kaguya forbidden school angle is taken.
Just making maneuvers based on the spellcards would be enough. Maneuvers involving her sword artifact could be done with any sword/weapon and those with keystone use keystones/otherthing as part of the maneuvers.
It would just be that Tenshi can use it with those artifacts. In comparison, Divine Flame does not require that you eat a Sun god to use the maneuvers and Lunatic Princess does not require the exact same artifacts to work but converts any similar enough object into what is needed.

As for new schools, I agree with Sakuya being due to be here somewhere.
As for others, Mamizou Futatsuiwa should be a school with enough material to make something pretty interesting.
Hata no Kokoro could be a little challenging as far as making a new system goes. Especially if we use the whole 66 emotion masks thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 24, 2013, 11:42:50 PM
I'd just presume the Sword of Hisou is more efficient than the crap we're using for it, ahahah~

We need two Sakuya schools.

One focusing on the stage magician/trickery angle, the other on the 'fuck time' side of things. KNIFE LASERS, HO!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: TechyKat on October 24, 2013, 11:49:19 PM
I can totally do the stage magician/fuck with the minds of your opponents with impossible tricks angle :D. Maybe do the 'fuck time it's go time' some other time.

edit: will have to be pretty ranged/melee friendly too because of the whole aspect of throwing the knives.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 25, 2013, 12:00:54 AM
I'd expect mostly ranged. Don't think of Sakuya as one into melee, really.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on October 25, 2013, 03:02:48 AM
Yeah, probably Sakuya next, but I think one for Iku could be pretty cool later. Just all the lightning spam ;D
Tenshi probably could have a decent discipline with a bunch of earth related magicky stuff. If you're a bit loose on the way her powers work anyways. If you want to keep it tied around the sword of hisou doing most of the work, it could just have an entry feat that grants a weapon aligned with the school, much like Ancient Temple has.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2013, 10:06:51 PM
I can totally do the stage magician/fuck with the minds of your opponents with impossible tricks angle :D. Maybe do the 'fuck time it's go time' some other time.

edit: will have to be pretty ranged/melee friendly too because of the whole aspect of throwing the knives.

Yeah, that's what I would like to see done as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on November 19, 2013, 11:29:44 PM
We need this (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hourai_Elixir) to its highest degree. Somehow. Rather than just 'respawn at 0 HP'.

... though I am a Mokou and Kaguya fangirl, so I'm not exactly the best source. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 16, 2013, 12:27:07 PM
Hm... do you have anything for the Septette Forbidden School? Or just the desire to one day make it? XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on December 16, 2013, 02:11:21 PM
The day I actually unlock EoSD's extra is the day I sit down to do it. Don't want to spoiler myself to Flandre's spellcards.

And since I'm at it, Hourai Elixir would be some super maneuver fusion between a Lunatic Princess user and Mistery Millenium (aka Eirin's school) user. Now that one I have in the drafts (slow archery+poison+disease+healing, yes, your syringes arrows can heal your allies at range), but always end up getting stuck how to properly implement all of that.

But personally I was more interested in doing the drunken demon as secondary school for Gate Guard. however I would need to homebrew a little something before that.

Well, I now have some proper free time in this weeks, I'm trying to see if I can do at least a new tobhou school. Maybe finally beat Remilia in EoSD and live to tell the tale (actually shot her  once, but she took me down with her with her last bullets).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on December 16, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
I wish you luck with beating Remilia. XD
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on December 16, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
You just gave me the urge the go through it again.
After the later games this one feels much harder than I remembered it to be. Maybe I got spoiled by the hitbox dot and enemy location indicator. And the normal speed feels much slower.
Interestingly enough I think I prefer the character art in EoSD than, say, Double Spoiler.

Suika is one I'm really looking forward to. Maybe Aya as well.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 06, 2014, 11:55:26 PM
Had an idea for the spellcards of certain characters that do not have enough spellcards to have a discipline of their own.

Perhaps, they could be bundled into the feat system.
The first feat would be similar to those other feats that grant the ability to learn maneuvers from a certain school: you get a certain advantage linked to the discipline in question and access to it. Like the Forbidden School feat, you get to learn alternate maneuvers - unlike Forbidden School, the maneuvers in question aren't any better than other tobhou maneuvers of their level, they are not linked to a specific discipline and they are much less varied and numerous. In effect, there would be about 1 Strike, 1 Boost, 1 Counter and 1 Stance. Each can be learned as a level 1/3/5/7/9 or maybe as a level 2/4/6/8 maneuver. Either way, their power increases according to the maneuver level they are learned as.
Alternatively, they just give you special options that are weaker than a usual maneuver of its level but you can 'spontaneously' initiate them by expending any readied maneuver to activate them and get the effect of the expended maneuver's level. Perhaps only maneuvers of the right type could be expended (strike/boost/counter and stances having a system of its own or there being no stance at all)

In example, for a character like Yuuka Kanzami:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 04:59:56 AM
Sleeping Terror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_lKi9k_GXI) is her best theme. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 05:09:35 AM
If you can't gather enough ideas/names to make a school for Yuka, you're just being damn lazy.

Think a moment about it. You're saying that whole character concepts should be reduced to a couple feats.

Anyway, "maneuvers" that don't have an actual school and that are different depending on the level you learn them sounds like an horrific idea to me.  They can't really be called maneuvers at all at that point, and it will only bring more headaches than anything else balancing/clarifying the whole thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 05:15:50 AM
Getting names for Yuuka is kind of hard when she's been in all of one windows game, where she has two cards. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2014, 05:38:22 AM
I only can come across 5 cards for Yuuka myself.
She would be a neat one to have a discipline for, flowers and nature and master sparks (oh my). Would have to get pretty imaginative to fill in the minimum number of cards for a school though...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
Enough to make a school for Yuuka? I also think lazy is a term inappropriate for the situation but you're free to think what you want.
I'm not reducing an entire character concept into feats, and the process isn't diminishing to her in any way.
I think it is a good way to make that aspect of her combat aptitudes her her own thing. Most characters in her situation, in your work and mine, have been diluted by having their maneuvers bundled with another character. Some in very inappropriate ways (ie: Aya sharing space with others in Venerable Battlefield when she isn't a god and actually has enough maneuvers for a discipline of her own. Her whole character concept got reduced to just a few maneuvers in someone else's big thing?).
If they aren't to be called maneuvers, they can be a special kind of feat of their own, like the Reserve feats are to spells.

In Yuka's situation, it is actually even more fitting considering PMiSS states that she apparently prefers to rely on overwhelming physical attacks than on her immense youkai and magical might. It says her ability over flowers doesn't have any real use in combat (even though she sure seemed to be using them in the game).
The idea was that since we can use a feat to learn an extra maneuver and to learn a stance, feat costs to get such a system going felt like something that could work and remain interesting.

It was a thought and the example was to give a good idea for the how it could be handled. If you don't like the suggestion, then it's alright. I don't mind.
Less is more.

Quote
She would be a neat one to have a discipline for, flowers and nature and master sparks (oh my). Would have to get pretty imaginative to fill in the minimum number of cards for a school though...
Making up names isn't difficult. Splitting names to fill up some spots can be done but ideally a discipline would have more than 40% of its content be actual spellcards. I had thought that in Yuuka's case we could cheat and tweak 'Phantastic Spring Flower' and multiply it by four by having one for every season but the number was still pretty low so sticking to the real thing felt like the option with the highest integrity.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 07:33:10 AM
Here, some minutes of searching and I get 26 names for possible Yuuka's spellcards (trivia: Yuuka likes to shoot down battleships (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dJ69tv36xU) when on vacation, which helped get quite a bit of those names). Several of those can be "split" in half, and then you can add "Lunatic" tags in a few others to fill any final blanks.  I'm even saving Sleeping Terror for the discipline name, and the feats can be connected to her uber parasol, that is otherwise not present on the spellcards. I believe Knowledge (Nature) would fit naturally for a key skill.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 08:06:55 AM
Marisa doesn't bother changing the names (just check when she stole Patchouli's lasers), so it would still be Master Spark.

... also her parasol is actually a flower. @_@
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 08:17:48 AM
Not any flower. A flower that never withers. Thus some kind of companion/special item.

Speaking of which, I'm planning to make Marisa's ability to steal copy spellcards integrated into her class. She can spend money to write down in books maneuvers she saw in action, then ready some of them herself each day, later on even give them extras a few times per day as well (yay slowly working on 2-3 tobhou schools at the same time, not exactly efficient, but inspiration shifts every day).

EDIT:Altough I should point out that Patchoulli never bothered to properly register  her lazors. It was Marisa that patented it as Nondirectional laser tm. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 07, 2014, 09:08:30 AM
... also her parasol is actually a flower. @_@

And it feeds off her energy or something I 'members :p


Not any flower. A flower that never withers. Thus some kind of companion/special item.

Speaking of which, I'm planning to make Marisa's ability to steal copy spellcards integrated into her class. She can spend money to write down in books maneuvers she saw in action, then ready some of them herself each day, later on even give them extras a few times per day as well (yay slowly working on 2-3 tobhou schools at the same time, not exactly efficient, but inspiration shifts every day).

EDIT:Altough I should point out that Patchoulli never bothered to properly register  her lazors. It was Marisa that patented it as Nondirectional laser tm. :p

That Marisa bit sounds like metamagicing maneuvers to me.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 10:39:28 AM
She's a youkai with power over flowers. Is it so surprising she could have one that doesn't wilt?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 11:24:39 AM
That Marisa bit sounds like metamagicing maneuvers to me.
Metamagic involves leveled slots. Marisa class has no leveled maneuver slots.

She's a youkai with power over flowers. Is it so surprising she could have one that doesn't wilt?

A druid has power over animals. How many druids do you know that have animals that don't grow old?

Yuuka has the only flower  in Gensokyo that doesn't wither. It's not something that can be mass produced and discarded every day. Heck, that could be an interesting take on the school. There's just one unwithering flower in existence, want to master the school, you have to get it from the previous owner (with a clause that at campaign start you can assume the previous owner has died of old age and you simply stumbled  upon their grave or something)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 11:31:57 AM
... because powers in Gensokyo are unique and therefore no-one else would be able to have one? :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 11:51:38 AM
Powers in Gensokyo...Unique? :psyduck

Death-Life is shared between Yuyuko, Rin, Komachi and around half the characters from Touhou 13.

Two shrine maidens.

Two brute strength onis.

Marisa, Alice and Patchoulli all using arcane magic of diferent flavors and copying each other. Heck, Youmu blatantly copies Marisa's controlable shooting orbs from Mountain of Faith in a later game!

Cirno and Letty and the other ice fairy that never says a word (she actually uses Cirno's exact original attacks during the fairy wars).

Prismriver sisters.

The two minor goddess at the start of Mountain of Faith.

Chen and her master.

At least three characters invoking divine treasures.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 11:55:30 AM
I mean specific stuff. Reimu's flight one, Yuyuko can just wish you dead. Basically, no youkai share a common power with another youkai (anything prefaced with 'Ability to the extent of'/'manipulation of')
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 12:02:27 PM
You're losing me... Let's just pretend I understood your point.

Do you have any particular problem with turning Yuuka's unwithering flower parasol into a feat?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 12:06:30 PM
None at all! Since this isn't Gensokyo.

Referring to these, really. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Characters/Abilities)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 12:11:36 PM
...You do notice that there's several abilities over there that are repeated among diferent characters, right? :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 12:20:40 PM
...You do notice that there's several abilities over there that are repeated among diferent characters, right? :eh

How many of them are innate abilities and not learned skills? Because if you're talking about the magicians, duh. :p

There are some that are very similar (Letty and Cirno) or one encompasses the other (Nue and Mamizou), but none identical.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 02:11:21 PM
Knowledge (Nature)
Agreed!

Quote
I do my tobhou schools based on character spellcards. And even when I gathered around every last official named IchirinYuuka spellcard, it still wasn't even enough to make a Forbidden school on her own, let alone a full regular school.
If we split Flower Sign "Reflowering of the Gensokyo"  in two spellcards don't make more than 20% of the current list. I don't mind using maneuvers from that other game even though this is about touhou. There seems to be about 3 potential maneuvers in there.
Only 15% of those are actually spellcards, so I guess you won't be doing this one.
Quote
Need 36 at least, then leftovers for the feats and extras.
Looks like its going to be a Forbidden School unless there's a bunch more made up. Either way I'm not interested.

A flower that never withers.
I actually don't think that the parasol is a flower. It is possible but I think she was just pulling Tewi's leg. Just another random lie to tease people.
Or just making a metaphor.
It could also be any big flower if it is really one. Her flower power description easily fits the ability to  preserve them since she can restore even withered flowers.

Unique power.
Not really important but I suppose abilities can indeed be shared. ie: Two kappas probably have the ability to manipulate water so the ability likely isn't exclusive to Nitori. Yep, it's a racial power but if powers can be unique to a race, and not an individual, then it is safe to assume that most powers aren't unique either nor limited to one given individual. Besides, one of the reasons these maneuvers are being done is to make all these abilities accessible to your average martial adept.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 02:15:31 PM
Unique power.
Not really important but I suppose abilities can indeed be shared. ie: Two kappas probably have the ability to manipulate water so the ability likely isn't exclusive to Nitori. Yep, it's a racial power but if powers can be unique to a race, and not an individual, then it is safe to assume that most powers aren't unique either nor limited to one given individual. Besides, one of the reasons these maneuvers are being done is to make all these abilities accessible to your average martial adept.

To a limited extent at times. For instance, Mokou and Kaguya* (getting the real Hourai Elixir at level one on a character with only a level in Aristocrat would be a pretty fun thing to do. :O)

*Everyone in Imperishable Night, really. They're basically all kind of broken... >_>;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 02:50:32 PM
Quote
I do my tobhou schools based on character spellcards. And even when I gathered around every last official named IchirinYuuka spellcard, it still wasn't even enough to make a Forbidden school on her own, let alone a full regular school.
If we split Flower Sign "Reflowering of the Gensokyo"  in two spellcards don't make more than 20% of the current list. I don't mind using maneuvers from that other game even though this is about touhou. There seems to be about 3 potential maneuvers in there.
Only 15% of those are actually spellcards, so I guess you won't be doing this one.
Who do you think I am? My very first tobhou school, has Puppeteer Theater, and three levels of Goliath Doll, not to mention several ones that are based on the exact same touhou ability, just with diferent translations. Crystallized Silver's tactical feat that you're so fond of is 66% based in a fighting game with 0% connections to Touhou. Seihou Kioh meanwhile is 100% Zun art, 12,5% Touhou characters, and 120% Yuuka asskicking. (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif)

A flower that never withers.
I actually don't think that the parasol is a flower. It is possible but I think she was just pulling Tewi's leg. Just another random lie to tease people.
Or just making a metaphor.
We could say the exact same thing about half or more of the Touhou abilities out there. Didn't stop either of us from turning them into actual abilities, did it? (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-allears.gif)

Unique power.
Not really important but I suppose abilities can indeed be shared. ie: Two kappas probably have the ability to manipulate water so the ability likely isn't exclusive to Nitori. Yep, it's a racial power but if powers can be unique to a race, and not an individual, then it is safe to assume that most powers aren't unique either nor limited to one given individual. Besides, one of the reasons these maneuvers are being done is to make all these abilities accessible to your average martial adept.

To a limited extent at times. For instance, Mokou and Kaguya* (getting the real Hourai Elixir at level one on a character with only a level in Aristocrat would be a pretty fun thing to do. :O)

*Everyone in Imperishable Night, really. They're basically all kind of broken... >_>;

Speaking of which, the way I decided to go with Eirin's school is half part precision archery, half part poisons (and diseases if you pick the feats). Apply negative effects to enemies, invert the effects to buff allies! With diminishing bonus that can turn into penalties if you spam it too much on the same person. Drugs specialist and stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 02:55:26 PM
Seihou Marisa has wings. Explain that one. XD

And that sounds like an interesting thing for Eirin. Does it use Craft (Alchemy)?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 03:04:56 PM
Seihou Marisa has wings. Explain that one. XD
(click to show/hide)

And that sounds like an interesting thing for Eirin. Does it use Craft (Alchemy)?

Heal. She's a space nurse after all. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 03:07:30 PM
And that sounds like an interesting thing for Eirin. Does it use Craft (Alchemy)?

Heal. She's a space nurse after all. :p

That would imply surgery. Eirin's abilities are specifically drugs. :p

-Makes a note of the basically-play-young-Mokou idea-
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 03:26:22 PM
Quote
Who do you think I am?
I'm not giving any personal opinion. Just dishing back stuff you say about yourself back at you. If you want to contradict yourself its you own business but it makes keeping track of what you approve and do not approve difficult. It seemed to be an issue when you first said that since it justified why you denied Ichirin a discipline all her own. Or whichever reason you had for saying that.
Quote
Crystallized Silver's tactical feat that you're so fond of is 66% based in a fighting game with 0% connections to Touhou.
I don't like that feat at all. Waiting for the first opportunity to retrain it. I realized at our very first battle that I wouldn't be using it much.
You can easily count how many charges I've done all game.
Quote
Seihou Kioh meanwhile is 100% Zun art, 12,5% Touhou characters, and 120% Yuuka asskicking.
As said, I don't mind using Seihou Kioh so I don't see why you act as if I objected to it. It's Zun, yes, but it isn't Touhou.

Quote
We could say the exact same thing about half or more of the Touhou abilities out there. Didn't stop either of us from turning them into actual abilities, did it?
Half or more? Now you're the one pulling my leg. I don't recall adhering to that practice but it is possible. Doesn't change that it is a very possible lie from a compulsive liar. The database as far as I've seen do not state that it is a flower, only referring to it as a umbrella or parasol. The picture makes its design look like a flower from the top but not from under, so maybe it is one and maybe it isn't.

Quote
That would imply surgery. Eirin's abilities are specifically drugs.
Maybe Craft (Poison)? She's a super poison expert iirc. Possibly better than even Medicine.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 03:42:37 PM
Quote
That would imply surgery. Eirin's abilities are specifically drugs.
Maybe Craft (Poison)? She's a super poison expert iirc. Possibly better than even Medicine.

Her given ability is to make any medicine (well, also Natural Genius), and if Kaguya is on hand she can make a medicine that makes it impossible for you to die at all, ever, even if time travel happens to stop you from getting the elixir in the first place.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 03:46:55 PM
Yeah but I recall it being stated that they used poison for more than poisoning, even making remedies. Even interpreting that your whole body is made of poison and poison is used to control how the body acts. I think it was the conversation between Tewi and Medicine.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 03:49:03 PM
Yeah but I recall it being stated that they used poison for more than poisoning, even making remedies. Even interpreting that your whole body is made of poison and poison is used to control how the body acts. I think it was the conversation between Tewi and Medicine.

Then she uses poison as medicine (which is like a lot of modern medication, really). The question is more whether it's semi-magical or not, for which skill applies.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 03:52:28 PM
I probably mixed up the text of Medicine with other characters. But indeed she uses more than just poison, so Heal would probably be the better skill.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 04:00:40 PM
I probably mixed up the text of Medicine with other characters. But indeed she uses more than just poison, so Heal would probably be the better skill.

... um... what? 'It's not exclusively poison, so heal is better'? Alchemy covers drugs better. Especially that butterfly dream pill she makes. :/
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 04:10:51 PM
No, it just feels more appropriate. Alchemy could work, certainly, but doesn't fit as well. If but single character in Touhou should have Heal as her key skill, its her. Heal is more than just finding remedies, it is the entire understanding/science of how the organism works. Making the elixir fits alchemy but alchemy is much more than that. It can also fit into Heal since finding a cure for mortality fits the understanding of the cogs of organisms.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 04:15:25 PM
It's not 'curing mortality' at all.

It's removing the concept of death from an entity using drugs and powers over eternity. Then there's the drugs that insure a sweet dream. And using Heal to poison people seems... kind of ridiculous. Plus basically all the given uses for the skill is basic first aid. >_>;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 04:34:43 PM
And that sounds like an interesting thing for Eirin. Does it use Craft (Alchemy)?

Heal. She's a space nurse after all. :p

That would imply surgery. Eirin's abilities are specifically drugs. :p

Wait a second, you can use the Heal skill to perform surgery in D&D now? Where? Last time I readed it, only allowed for first aid, treating poisons and diseases, and long-term care (aka nursing).

Other touhou characters could be called alchemists of sorts (Marisa sure beats Eirin when it comes to brewing explosive stuff). Only the lunarian nurse can be claimed to have healing training.

It's removing the concept of death from an entity using drugs and powers over eternity. Then there's the drugs that insure a sweet dream. And using Heal to poison people seems... kind of ridiculous. Plus basically all the given uses for the skill is basic first aid. >_>;
The line between a medicine and hallucinogenic is pretty thin. The diference between a medicine and a poison is often just how much you give to the other person.

Learning how to heal people means knowing what doesn't hurt them. Meaning that you know exactly what hurts them. Any talented medic knows a million different ways to screw up your body, it's just that they're expected to avoid doing those things.

Quote
Who do you think I am?
I'm not giving any personal opinion. Just dishing back stuff you say about yourself back at you. If you want to contradict yourself its you own business but it makes keeping track of what you approve and do not approve difficult. It seemed to be an issue when you first said that since it justified why you denied Ichirin a discipline all her own. Or whichever reason you had for saying that.
Yuuka is one of the most popular characters out there. Plenty of material around for inspiration, including a lack of other characters doing similar stuff. Ichirin... Not so much. So basically same reason because you denied Miko a discipline all her own. We didn't notice there were other spellcards around the corner, thus bundled it all up with other characters and went ahead with it.


Quote
We could say the exact same thing about half or more of the Touhou abilities out there. Didn't stop either of us from turning them into actual abilities, did it?
Half or more? Now you're the one pulling my leg.
Meh, more than one person I spoke with claims that Touhou is nothing more than silly girls playing fireworks with fancy names against each other, and that nobody could actually ever get hurt.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 04:51:56 PM
And that sounds like an interesting thing for Eirin. Does it use Craft (Alchemy)?

Heal. She's a space nurse after all. :p

That would imply surgery. Eirin's abilities are specifically drugs. :p

Wait a second, you can use the Heal skill to perform surgery in D&D now? Where? Last time I readed it, only allowed for first aid, treating poisons and diseases, and long-term care (aka nursing).

The Heal skill is... uh... first aid (since the poison/disease is only of use when making the saves) and changing bandages? I'm not really sure what the epic usages could be other than surgery, though. :/

Quote
Other touhou characters could be called alchemists of sorts (Marisa sure beats Eirin when it comes to brewing explosive stuff). Only the lunarian nurse can be claimed to have healing training.

I don't think that's Marisa's being better, necessarily; more not making explosives.

And nitroglycerin is a medicine. :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 04:53:17 PM
Quote
Yuuka is one of the most popular characters out there. Plenty of material around for inspiration, including a lack of other characters doing similar stuff. Ichirin... Not so much.
Ichirin is growing. Three games with spellcards in them, including a fighter game with a lot of material to work with. Entries and appearances in print works. And Unzan.
If you can do a whole discipline with 4 spellcards, I think you are underestimating yourself on what you can do with a character with as much material as Ichirin.

Quote
So basically same reason because you denied Miko a discipline all her own. We didn't notice there were other spellcards around the corner, thus bundled it all up with other characters and went ahead with it.
You maybe missed it it when I told you last time, but I'm currently doing a total rework of Desire Drive. Miko is indeed getting her own discipline and so is Futo, though Futo could share hers with Seiga (and Yoshika) as two different paths under the same school.
And as is, the current Desire Drive was made to keep a clear path system that separates the characters by linked stance. While hermits have access to hermit powers, they each have their specialty so I feel like I preserved character integrity that way. I'm reworking it because two hermits now have a massive amount of material to work with.

Quote
Meh, more than one person I spoke with claims that Touhou is nothing more than silly girls playing fireworks with fancy names against each other, and that nobody could actually ever get hurt.
How is that related to interpreting if a character, that is a compulsive liar, is telling a lie or not?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 07, 2014, 05:00:11 PM
ANGRY CLOUD.

Byakuren is the only character in a Touhou game with a noticeable, sizeable bust. /tangent
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 05:06:23 PM
On the matter of Heal, my PHB states that it is "to keep a badly wounded friend from dying, to help others recover faster from wounds, to keep your friend from succumbing to a wyvern's poison sting, or to treat a disease."
Keeping badly wounded people from dying could certainly include surgery.
I remember seeing it appear for things like determining pressure points but the idea remains that it is all about knowing how organisms work and how to treat them (which indeed includes all the different ways you can screw it up). Anyone can make a poison but not everyone knows exactly how much of it you must use to have it act as a remedy in certain circumstances.
Plus, she has some kind of nurse outfit and her profile states that: "Eirin has begun using her knowledge of medicine to act as Gensokyo's premier pharmacist, selling medicines at Eientei ranging from sleep aids to various cures."
Its gotta be Heal.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 07, 2014, 05:15:38 PM
Quote
So basically same reason because you denied Miko a discipline all her own. We didn't notice there were other spellcards around the corner, thus bundled it all up with other characters and went ahead with it.
You maybe missed it it when I told you last time, but I'm currently doing a total rework of Desire Drive. Miko is indeed getting her own discipline and so is Futo, though Futo could share hers with Seiga (and Yoshika) as two different paths under the same school.
Even if those were to be finished today, I would still have over a year to do the same with Ichirin, by your own standards, since you posted Desire Drive in 2012, and we're already in 2014. (http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smug.gif)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 07, 2014, 05:23:39 PM
Hopeless Masquerade was officially released on the 26th of May, 2013 (not counting Ichirin being in the trial version before that). You made yours after it and I did mine before it. I adapt mine to it, you decided to make yours despite the material already being available. Different contexts and the need to change is for different reasons. Desire Drive as is has character integrity despite including many characters so the need for change is only me feeling I can do better with the new material. They all get power from the Tao but they all have their own special extra. Sky Ruin and Venerable Battlefield mixes in characters that do not belong with each other despite having enough materials to stand on their own.
By my own standards, I would have implemented the available material to begin with, so you already failed to meet them, if that is now the objective for some reason. You deciding to even consider following my standards is shocking after insinuating so often that you abhor them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 28, 2014, 05:28:54 PM
So, like, I made a genderbent Cirno awhile ago and kinda been wanting an opinion on it. It's for a martial gestalt game and kinda has a few things just for fun and/or flavor. I focused seriously on Intimidation abuse though. Like I tried to optimize the shit out of Intimidate, then just had fun with the rest of it.

Naughtcerno Sircalnein IX (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=475554)
I thought I was being pretty clever there -_-'

The general battle plan consists of beating some one's face into a bloody pulp whilst everyone around me is frozen in fear :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 28, 2014, 05:38:56 PM
... 00 circle 99? :p

Your defences seem a bit... bad.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 28, 2014, 05:43:50 PM
No, it's Not Cirno :p

Bad as in...bad? Or bad as in actually bad? -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 28, 2014, 06:31:50 PM
No, it's Not Cirno :p

Bad as in...bad? Or bad as in actually bad? -_-'

You have DR 10, but I recall something about taking extra damage. And high HP is only so good if everything can hit you.

Though looking at your traits and flaws, I can only go: 'what'. What sane person lets you get CHA to HP and AC in exchange for a penalty smaller than your likely CHA modifier to two CHA checks? And then there's a flaw that's completely optional due to a low save and impacting nothing... plus some free (literally) bonuses. And then a flaw that is... uh... attack anyone hostile/looking for a fight... because that is clearly a flaw in an RPG. /sarcasm

Tempted to say that if the DM is permitting those, it doesn't matter what you do. >_>;
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 28, 2014, 06:53:36 PM
Yeah there is the Iron Vulnerability, which causes iron weapons to do 1d6 more damage, but Unseelie Fey lose that Vulnerability at 12 HD. The high hp does help as I really imagine attracting all of the enemies' hate >>. Which means the AC could be useful higher, but I'm not too worried there because I could make it better, but the expected DM is disgustingly good at optimization so it'd be kind of a tough arms race to win AC vs. to hit bonuses. So hey, I might just get myself killed right fast anyways.

We aren't a very strict group, the flaws were pretty silly terrible, and yes, that trait is disgustingly broken but the fluff is pretty enticing to me for making potential Rping more entertaining. There was some talk with the DM in how the flaw that can autofail diplomacy checks could come up when the party is trying to diplo through some important social situations and simply worsening the attitude rank of npcs to below neutral when talks go bad could be enough to trigger the violently enthusiastic one and make me start pummeling dignitaries and/or nobles (the save DC does keep rising every round <<).
It doesn't help that I'm likely to be the party face, at that.

On the other side of things, some one else in the party has got a genderbent Mokou based around Charisma as well and all about peace & harmony. Effectively my polar opposite. It's a fire & ice kind of thing -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 28, 2014, 07:45:15 PM
Quote
On the other side of things, some one else in the party has got a genderbent Mokou based around Charisma as well and all about peace & harmony. Effectively my polar opposite. It's a fire & ice kind of thing -_-'

Okay, that character has absolutely nothing in common with Mokou (personality-wise), then. From CiLR:
Quote
The next three hundred years I spent harboring a grudge against this world, and was able to preserve the faintest sense of identity by immediately dispatching anything that crossed my path, youkai or otherwise.

Speaking of Mokou, take a look at this abomination (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12272.msg210598#new). :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on January 28, 2014, 07:57:04 PM
Well it's really just appearance wise. I don't feel like my not-cirno has much in common with Cirno and all either, personality wise :p
(Well maybe a little bit. But...*shrugs* )

Yeah that thing you got there is pretty cool tho :D
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 10, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
Just to say that I'll probably work on Mamizou Futatsuiwa once I'm done with Desire Drive. In case someone was considering doing it.
Kind of got into the whole Tanuki thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on April 10, 2014, 07:44:21 PM
I wonder how far you'll make her stretch :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on April 10, 2014, 11:01:55 PM
I'm not sure I get your meaning.  :(
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 06, 2014, 10:00:34 PM
So, like, I know this is the discussion for the Battle Grimoire, but I don't know where else to talk about it and I want to talk about something Touhou with the people who know the Touhous  -_-'

Any of you know about the Touhou Tabletop RPG, Damnaku Yuugi -Flowers- ?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 06, 2014, 10:07:11 PM
It has a tabletop RPG? Oh god.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 06, 2014, 11:12:12 PM
It's kind of interesting, but I've yet to play it.
It seems to translate the idea of bullet hell play kind of okay to a tabletop grid. You can make your own spell cards and draw your own patterns for them :p
But while character creation seems pretty thorough, most of it does seem to just be numbers to validate fluff rather than vice-versa. Game looks a lot more roleplaying driven than mechanics.
An interesting thing about combat (both danmaku combat and "judgement"s (chitchatty back and forth)) is that while everything is opposed rolls, the goal isn't necessarily to roll higher than your opponent, but to get a die result as close to your opponents (or better exactly the same) as possible for higher Tension (use to cast spell cards) rewards! Battles are SUPER TENSE after all! Hahaha.
Which leads to the interesting idea of deciding to buy skills that not only can boost your die rolls, but subtract from your own rolls as well.

(And the artwork in the pdf is gorgeous  :D)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 04:01:15 AM
Hmm, the art is gorgeous I'll give you that (except Youmu's swords have both the same exact length because reasons). Seems kinda inter-Wait, the vampire mistress of the Scarlet Devil Mansion is classified as a demon? :psyduck

RRRAAAAGGGEEEEE!!!! :shakefist

Kinda nice premise of wanting to enter Gengyoko tough.

This is not the first made-from-scratch Touhou tabletop RPG I've seen around the net tough. I remember finding another a couple years ago or so.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 07:22:27 AM
Honestly, Remilia's status as a demon is ZUN's fault. She keeps getting referred to as a devil. Also, this line from the PMiSS article for vampires:
Quote
2: A devil's contract is absolute, thus one can never betray it.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 07:45:47 AM
Precisely, you can make an argument for Remilia being a devil. Not for her being a demon.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 07:59:49 AM
Eh, the two are more or less synonymous aside from some games. Just look at the definition:

Quote
demon1
ˈdiːmən/
noun
noun: demon; plural noun: demons

    1.
    an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 04:29:22 PM
Quote
This is not the first made-from-scratch Touhou tabletop RPG I've seen around the net tough. I remember finding another a couple years ago or so.
I can't find it myself, but there is mention by the person who made this one having a different, older system called Youyoumu.

Demons, devils, fiends, they're all the same thing outside of D&D  :rolleyes
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 06:12:03 PM
So, are you claiming that chaotic drink-until-you-drop Suika would fit on the same category than the refined light drinker Remilia? :eh
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 06:20:04 PM
A race isn't a personality?

Everybody has a bad egg that messes with their species' refined reputation :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 06:45:27 PM
Yes? It's an umbrella term. It's not like Oni and Vampires are the same thing (given that Vampires would be the most broken Touhou race without their drawbacks, well...)

Remilia looks and acts under 10, anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
Remilia is vulnerable to the sun. Why she makes sure to have an umbrella when she gets out, and that's even how she's curbstomped in Sinner in Blue.

Suika on the other hand is a oni (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Oni), which is basically just the japanese term for demon. She doesn't give a damn about sunlight, has horns, doesn't drink blood, and doesn't make devilish contracts.

Basically, devils have always been different from demons. Remilia is based on the old testament, the vampirish devil that sneaks around and drains the blood of the people and making murky deals. Demons are the rampaging brute monsters.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 07:10:03 PM
You're inserting distinctions that do not exist in either language. In English, a devil and demon are the same thing. In Japanese, Vampire contains the kanji for Oni. The result is that if you make an umbrella class of 'demon' in a Japanese game, you'll get vampires and oni.

Similarities: strength, the passage of time means nothing, and insane powers (control of density, fate, unexplained phenomena, and destruction between the four of them)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 07:39:54 PM
Except that Devils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil) and Demons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon) are different things in English all right.

Think about it for a moment. If they were the same thing, people wouldn't have bothered to come with different words in the first place.

They have similarities, yes. But by that kind of standard characters like Moukou and Cirno would count as a demons as well (they're all immortal entities with insane powers and great strength)

It's the differences that set them apart. Devils like contracts and manipulation and having servants, demons like to smash and wild party and chaotic mayhem.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 07:42:58 PM
The problem is, by that definition, the dictionary definition for demon should not be 'devil'. (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/demon?q=Demon) They might have different etymologies but, in common parlance, they mean the same thing. D&D is not an accurate template, though it obviously informs your opinions on the subject.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 07:51:40 PM
What informs my opinions on this subject is Zun's work. And Zun clearly states that Remilia and Suika are not the same kind of being.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 07:52:52 PM
What informs my opinions on this subject is Zun's work. And Zun clearly states that Remilia and Suika are not the same kind of being.

Cats are mammals. Humans are mammals. Humans and cats are not the same thing.

Thus, vampires can be devils, and oni can be devils, without vampire and oni being the same thing.

A=C, B=C, but A=/=B (if A is true, C is true; if B is true, C is true; but if A is true, B doesn't need to be true)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 07:59:00 PM
Os, this isn't a real problem. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 07, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
Math proves nothing if you start by false premises. Zun's demons have no relation to Zun's devils (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Oni), so you can't pull out of nowhere that onis are something that they're never mentioned as being.

Well, you could grasp at straws and claim that they may share some characters, but that's as absurd as claiming that a cat and Catarina the great are the same thing because they both start with the same letters. There's a lot more words out there than Japanese characters, so different terms are bound to share equal characters.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 08:08:22 PM
To be totally fair, every race except Humans in Danmaku Yuugi can easily fall under the category of Youkai, but they is also it's own race.

Regardless, it's not an important facet. It's a fan-made work, of course other fans may not agree entirely with their ideas just like how some of us don't agree entirely with some of your Touhou inspired ideas.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 08:21:48 PM
Er, no; you're the one claiming there's 'no relation', and that oni = demon but oni =/= devil. Again, you're claiming that devil =/= demon in English (answer: they do, according to the OED) and that this is an accurate summation of a translation. What most likely happened is that whoever wrote that noticed that the kanji for 'oni' is in vampire, and that vampires are described as devils anyway, and concluded that vampire = devil, oni = devil, therefore both are a type of devil/demon. All without actually being wrong, as ZUN is enormously vague.

Anyway, all this Vampire speak...



Vampire

A strange creature, new to Gensokyo, that requires blood to survive--yet can channel this blood into boosting its own capabilities, and is aptly suited to combat thriving upon said blood.

(click to show/hide)



Because the Vampire class is annoying.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 08:24:48 PM
I don''t understand the wording for how that Special works at all.......
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
I don''t understand the wording for how that Special works at all.......

I've been drinking, which doesn't help, but broadly:

Vampire isn't compatible with racial templates, other races, or being undead. I should probably add construct, but I'm not sure if I should rule out cyborg Touhou vampires... :???

... I more or less wrote it because neither Remi nor Flan are terribly dead. They're very strong and fast, but their weaknesses are a bit odd, and other than that it's more of a matter of collecting specific abilities. Also, having to take a specific class that burns levels and makes you undead to use a school properly bothers me.

Probably doesn't need the free feat, though.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 08:39:23 PM
Oh so that is a template you wrote to put onto a PHB race that can not stack with other templates that change creature Type?

Templates that add Sub-types tho are still fine with it, yeah?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 08:51:40 PM
Oh so that is a template you wrote to put onto a PHB race that can not stack with other templates that change creature Type?

Templates that add Sub-types tho are still fine with it, yeah?

Um... no? It's a race. That is, the intent is that you're not a human, or a halfling: you're a vampire. Regardless of the supposed base, this is your racial identity now, and whatever you were before is overriden by your vampiric condition.

Trying again!



Vampire

A strange creature, new to Gensokyo, that requires blood to survive--yet can channel this blood into boosting its own capabilities, and is aptly suited to combat thriving upon said blood.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 10:24:27 PM
Ah okay. The new version makes sense now. :)

If Vampire then is your race, what is your Type?
Because otherwise it looks like your Type is still Humanoid despite being a Vampire. Which is fine and all, but it should mention what happens to your Type as a Vampire. (Plus for when something like "Eating, Breathing, Sleeping, ect" stuff comes up)


Duh, nevermind. Vampire Base says you're Humanoid even as a Vampire.
Although I wasn't looking at trying to see this thing as Undead type (cause thats OP :P), do you still need to Eat (not blood) and Breath and Sleep?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 07, 2014, 10:29:49 PM
Ah okay. The new version makes sense now. :)

If Vampire then is your race, what is your Type?
Because otherwise it looks like your Type is still Humanoid despite being a Vampire. Which is fine and all, but it should mention what happens to your Type as a Vampire. (Plus for when something like "Eating, Breathing, Sleeping, ect" stuff comes up)


Duh, nevermind. Vampire Base says you're Humanoid even as a Vampire.
Although I wasn't looking at trying to see this thing as Undead type (cause thats OP :P), do you still need to Eat (not blood) and Breath and Sleep?

If anything, blame Os for not stating that Lunarians and White Wolf Tengu are humanoid. :P

The gist is that you need to eat, drink, and sleep; but you're by nature nocturnal, and have an additional dietary requirement of 'blood'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on June 07, 2014, 10:38:08 PM
Looks pretty good then. :)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 08, 2014, 02:40:02 PM
And finally, revised sober, but still horribly clunky. Oh well.

Vampire

A strange creature, new to Gensokyo, that requires blood to survive--yet can channel this blood into boosting its own capabilities, and is aptly suited to combat thriving upon said blood.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 08, 2014, 07:53:59 PM
Also, having to take a specific class that burns levels and makes you undead to use a school properly bothers me.
Septette for the Dead was developed taking in account you would have to burn levels to fully unlock the blood charges potential. And I don't feel like remaking it from scratch.

Besides, you're now trying to argue that Remilia cannot turn into a bat neither has a coffin nor any servants. I clearly missed the part of EoSD where stages 3-6 were completely empty until reaching this twilight wannabe.  Also she now drinks holy water for breakfast, but she was forever vanquished from this world when she crossed a fisherman with a bunch of sardines. Or perhaps it was a beans seller.

Needs more glittering under the sun clearly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 08, 2014, 08:21:40 PM
Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'. Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>

Quote from: Imperishable Night Manual
It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.

So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.

As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access. :eh

EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 09, 2014, 01:54:09 PM
Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'.
Silly Raineh, where do you think Remilia rests during the day? (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-oriental-sacred-place/15/11)

Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>
She sleeps in a coffin. Meaning she doesn't need to breathe. And she doesn't age nor gets sick, and clearly has darkvision.

Also, she has an army of fairies doing chores for her. Fairies don't do maid work out of their own will. And Remilia can't threaten them with death, so mind control.

Quote from: Imperishable Night Manual
It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.
Remilia still takes extra damage from light-based attacks that deal extra damage against undead. Your twilight wannabe means Silent Sinner in Blue ended with Remilia taking over the moon because the lunarian sister's sun channeling meant a measly extra 1d6 of damage at best.

Another bit of trivia, on the DR explanation of the DMG it says that it can be described as quick healing of wounds and uses the vampire as example. Even tough vampires have natural fast healing, but it's still a valid way of describing it.

Meanwhile sunlight isn't instant death for regular vampires either. They're left staggered for the first round, but can still try to escape.

But of course Remilia's actually a vampire lord, so she can actually tank some sunlight (and other vampire weaknsses). It still supresses her supernatural stance that grants her wings tough.

So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.
Au contraire, you cannot prove that Remilia cannot do a specific thing. She may've just not used it yet, like she has new tricks up her sleeve in every new game she shows up. But I can prove that Remilia can do things your twilight wannabe cannot. :smirk

As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access. :eh
Eerr, where you're getting the "count as your actual level for maneuver purposes" on the vampire side? As for the rest, nothing you couldn't pick with a couple well chosen levels of something else, in particular when you're getting half a level for free.

EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.
Her closest servants say beans just annoy her. (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-strange-and-bright-nature-deity/1/19)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 09, 2014, 06:22:52 PM
Turning into a bat, yes. Coffin? No. I have seen nothing to suggest that, if she has one, it's for any reason other than 'oh, hey, stylish'.
Silly Raineh, where do you think Remilia rests during the day? (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-oriental-sacred-place/15/11)

Huh, never read the fairy manga. So she does.

Quote
Also seen nothing to suggest vampires are undead in Touhou, more to the point. And 'Servants' don't require 'Vampire' when you own a mansion. And let's see... Patchouli's a friend, Meiling is a mystery, and Sakuya isn't mind controlled. >_>
She sleeps in a coffin. Meaning she doesn't need to breathe. And she doesn't age nor gets sick, and clearly has darkvision.

Also, she has an army of fairies doing chores for her. Fairies don't do maid work out of their own will. And Remilia can't threaten them with death, so mind control.

1) You're assuming that the coffin is, in fact, airtight, and required.* When she adopts Dracula-related imagery because 'it's vampiric'.
2)Yeah, lack of ageing totally means undead, it's not like every single youkai is ageless by definition. Like Utsuho, Orin, Nue, youkai magicians, Yukari, Ran...

Not getting ill makes you undead? Glad to know I have d12 HD; or that we know enough about Remilia's life to be certain on this. :rolleyes

Maid work is voluntary (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Sakuya_Izayoi). Specifically, this section:

Quote from: PMiSS
The Scarlet Devil Mansion's policy regarding maids is quantity over quality, and they are somehow able to accomodate all of the fairy maids in their employ.
She is the only human maid among them, and as the head maid she gives orders to the fairy maids.
The fairy maids are mostly useless.
They are sufficiently occupied in cleaning their own uniforms and making their own food (*3).
About the only thing worth saying about these maids is that they basically have no pay or vacation, but they receive food and tea, and can do whatever else they please.
They are free to leave and regain their posts, as well.
The fairy maids' lives are comparatively comfortable, and if they can come to enjoy their masters' occasional impossible requests, almost none choose to run away.
In contrast, the chief maid's job is severe.
As her duties include cleaning the labyrinthine interior of the mansion, taking care of its selfish master, managing the useless maids, going out to buy supplies in the human village and making pointlessly gorgeous meals, she has no time to rest.
It would be impossible to do all this work alone without being able to stop time.

So no, mind control is ruled out.

Quote
Quote from: Imperishable Night Manual
It goes without saying that she is weak against sunlight, can't cross flowing water, hates garlic, and despises sardine heads. Crosses have no effect on her. It puzzles her to hear that her kind are supposed to be weak against such a thing.

Yup, sardine heads. Not sure where Patchouli decided to have a setsubun festival (one of the manga? Some article somewhere? So many places to look...), but roasted soybeans too.

Besides, it's not like this could be less accurate than the base vampire class. Sunlight isn't instant death, there's no indication either of them are undead since vampires are a type of youkai, coffins are irrelevant, they can break and enter (Eientei), Remilia and Flandre have a religious imagery obsession, both are easily hurt (so no DR) but heal it well enough, and there's no mention of mind control.
Remilia still takes extra damage from light-based attacks that deal extra damage against undead. Your twilight wannabe means Silent Sinner in Blue ended with Remilia taking over the moon because the lunarian sister's sun channeling meant a measly extra 1d6 of damage at best.

Another bit of trivia, on the DR explanation of the DMG it says that it can be described as quick healing of wounds and uses the vampire as example. Even tough vampires have natural fast healing, but it's still a valid way of describing it.

Meanwhile sunlight isn't instant death for regular vampires either. They're left staggered for the first round, but can still try to escape.

But of course Remilia's actually a vampire lord, so she can actually tank some sunlight (and other vampire weaknsses). It still supresses her supernatural stance that grants her wings tough.

Err... you're now reading your own homebrew into what is quite literally 'will burn away in sunlight'. That is certain. She doesn't burn away to nothing within 10 seconds (which is close enough to nothing), but she outright takes damage from it rather than penalties. Weaknesses do damage, but it's not terribly relevant if you heal it.

Having that reading of DR and Fast Healing in one place is, honestly, stupid. You're trying to represent one ability two ways, which ends up causing a mess. So I take 5 less damage from everything, yet I heal damage every round, both because I heal quickly? Why is one healing so much faster than the other? Why does certain damage bypass one, but get healed by the other? Fuck the DMG's fluff guidelines, they don't make sense. :/

Relatedly: I don't think the wings are supernaturally granted. This is Gensokyo, people can fly without wings anyway. It says as much in Flandre's section, where she just... makes no sense. <_<

Quote
So yes, it misses turning into a bat; but it doesn't include a lot of things that Touhou vampires don't.
Au contraire, you cannot prove that Remilia cannot do a specific thing. She may've just not used it yet, like she has new tricks up her sleeve in every new game she shows up. But I can prove that Remilia can do things your twilight wannabe cannot. :smirk

... er, 'attacks with bats in IN' is the only ability gain I can think of that shows up in a game. Otherwise you have 'uses stuff in different ways'.

Quote
As for the balance comment: one level, undead immunities, much much better buffing capabilities, or you can take two levels and, if you're well fed, get all of the same, monster summoning, dominate, army creation, negative levels, and the ability to count as your actual level for maneuver purposes. That is: either the balance comment is invalid, or the vampire class needs editing as it gives you far more bonuses and you get to keep full maneuver access. :eh
Eerr, where you're getting the "count as your actual level for maneuver purposes" on the vampire side? As for the rest, nothing you couldn't pick with a couple well chosen levels of something else, in particular when you're getting half a level for free.

Oh, wait, misread Manifester. Good to see that you rank 9th level spells as balanced against getting maneuvers one level late, though. :rolleyes

Quote
EDIT: Oh, wait, PMiSS has the soybean comment. And more sardine heads. It also mentions summoning legions of devils, but you've gotten that part in the martial school anyway.
Her closest servants say beans just annoy her. (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-strange-and-bright-nature-deity/1/19)
[/quote]

First: fairies? Closest servants? What logic is that? Has Sakuya spontaneously disappeared? <.<

... anyway, as the manual says, weak to them. It's obvious why someone that gets hurt by roasted soybeans would be annoyed if you throw them around. Not like she can't heal from anything almost immediately.



Good to see that you're trying to support your argument with 'twilight' jabs. I still want evidence that Touhou vampires are undead--and 'sleeps in a coffin' is not evidence, nor is ageing.

Quote
Of the newer youkai that have emerged only within the last few centuries, vampires are among the strongest of them, strong enough to take part in the power-balance of Gensokyo (*1) by now.

Vampires are youkai.

Quote
*Youkai have longer lifespans than humans.
*Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into five parts, they heal right away.

Yup, fits vampires.

*Relatedly: everyone can apparently breathe in space anyway. Imperishable Night, Stage 6.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on July 30, 2014, 07:17:01 AM
A player wants to play one of these classes in our game, and I was wondering how they balance compared to official classes?

I am speaking for the plain historian in particular, but I would be interested to know your opinion on all these classes and material.

Admitedly I suck in detecting balance in homebrew material, but certain things, like the Scolar's casting as a 2/3 Cleric in addition to his abilities, and some of the cheap armors that give  AC depending to your ranks in a skill, make me a little sceptical in allowing this material in our game.

To have a better idea of our group, it is a party of 7, with 4 low optimization players, 1 medium, and 2 high. We also regularly use published adventures, mainly because I don't have time to make my own. And this is the real issue. If I had time to make my own encounters or severly adapt the ones in the adventure, I woundn't worry.

This question Oslecamo applies to all your homebrew material. In fact I am curious about your take on the power level the homebrewers in Minmax aim in general. Hell if Strativarius, Garyll or Sirpercival (or anyone I am forgeting) happen to see this question, I wouldn't mind hearing their opinion also.

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2014, 08:05:44 AM
Scholar doesn't get Cleric casting. That would be Shrine Maiden.

Balance wise... aside from those monster classes that are outright full casters, they're powerful due to being pretty hard to screw up, but if there are any really broken combinations of stuff, you can post about them and they'll generally be removed.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: samnemath on July 30, 2014, 08:25:04 AM
Ah, yes, sorry. Shrine maiden is what I meant.

I was mostly asking on how balanced they are with other martial adepts. Of course this may change depending on the level of optimization, but as an average, how do they compare?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on July 30, 2014, 08:27:05 AM
I don't actually know what armour ties AC to skill ranks, but Shrine Maiden cleric casting is delayed, and by not taking the 'I just want to throw things at you' ACF, your available maneuvers are also in shorter supply. It's not a big deal; just a cleric would be worse.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 01, 2014, 02:17:10 PM
Ah, yes, sorry. Shrine maiden is what I meant.

I was mostly asking on how balanced they are with other martial adepts. Of course this may change depending on the level of optimization, but as an average, how do they compare?
Pretty well I would say. Warblade and crusader are both quite strong classes that can chew right trough most prepared adventures. The classes here will probaly have somewhat more versatility, but Crusader and Warblades have both more HP, full Bab, and can recover their maneuvers on the fly while barely slowing down their attacks. They also get more martial schools to pick from, and their secondary abilities aren't anything to sneeze at either (cough delayed damage pool cough).

Delayed cleric casting on the Shrine Maiden allows for some nice tricks, but by itself won't really do that much (and may actually stay behind a crusader/cleric ruby knight vindicator).

The Korindou armor that grants AC based on skill ranks only really pulls ahead at high levels (and seriously, high level AC shouldn't be so damn expensive outside of spells), so earlier on it isn't really better than medium armor for the warblade, or heavy armor for the crusader.


This question Oslecamo applies to all your homebrew material. In fact I am curious about your take on the power level the homebrewers in Minmax aim in general. Hell if Strativarius, Garyll or Sirpercival (or anyone I am forgeting) happen to see this question, I wouldn't mind hearing their opinion also.
Can't really speak for the others, but I aim at a higher power level than average D&D (notice that ToB is also higher power than average). I however take special care in preventing infinite loops and OP combos. I love immunity-piercing abilities, because players should never be told "your special attack auto-fails and the enemy didn't even had to spend an action, sucks to be you", something for which I've been both criticized and praised.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2015, 11:35:32 AM
Woo~ Another Touhou Fighting Game! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3S8IQ_sWrQ)
Kasen's in it, the art takes another step up and Marisa's sending people to some toilet of doom with her ult. Joy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 15, 2015, 11:38:30 AM
My biggest question is 'why does Kasen have an eagle'.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2015, 11:59:08 AM
It is one of her most (or the most) recurring animal disciple in the books. Maybe it'll do stuff in the full version.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 15, 2015, 01:52:21 PM
Oh, I gosto muito Marisa again embracing her dark side.

Also that's not an eagle following Kasen. It's a foul demonic familar that's been known to kidnap shrine maidens. An actual eagle would be much smaller for starters.

Gotta love the game premise. "Yoh gawd we heard you like myths becoming reality so we put myths becoming reality in your myths becoming reality series so you can mythology while you become real". This is, isn't the whole basic premise of Touhou that urban legends are true after all and they're all hiding somewhere in Gensokyo?

Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on January 15, 2015, 02:06:25 PM
Haha! I got the same impression for the game's premise.

They found the trick to ultimate power! Make more legends about yourself to get stronger as they become real.
Until it totally backfires.

Quote
Also that's not an eagle following Kasen. It's a foul demonic familar that's been known to kidnap shrine maidens. An actual eagle would be much smaller for starters.
You are correct that isn't really a normal eagle. It is a dapeng (or just peng). Giant bird of Chinese mythology. It is to the Chinese pretty much what the Roc is to the Arabs.
(click to show/hide)
It is also a symbol of the ideals of Taoism.
Peng (http://history.cultural-china.com/en/233History2898.html)
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 04, 2015, 01:09:03 PM
Comparing the Immortal Smoke maneuvers to how Mokou actually plays in ULiL is... frighteningly accurate. :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on June 04, 2015, 01:31:47 PM
I thought it felt similar in essence too :)
It plays better than HM though I'm a bit disappointing they didn't name all their attacks this time. The story is pretty good though. The art too. The ultra short arms of HM were all I could see in the portraits.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on June 04, 2015, 01:43:29 PM
The 'let's get random remixes' thing for the music is somewhat baffling.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on June 04, 2015, 02:07:35 PM
Yeah. That was a bit disappointing too though. In battle I don't really pay attention to the music so I guess it fits the mood. I think those are the ones that gave me the biggest impression:

Futo's Legend of the Great Casino: o_O
Miko's Rock Administrator: Coulda been better but I'm fine with it.
Kaisen's battlefield: A bit lackluster but sort of badass.
Sumireko's Last Occultism: Now we're talking.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Vladeshi on August 10, 2015, 06:14:15 AM
I just realized that Lunarian and White Wolf Tengu don't have types listed.
Given that Lunarians are descended from humans I would assume that they are humanoid.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 10, 2015, 07:04:04 PM
Ups, fixed. Glad somebody noticed that after 2 years.

Also something I missed:
Comparing the Immortal Smoke maneuvers to how Mokou actually plays in ULiL is... frighteningly accurate. :lmao

(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab332/Crawlscreens/DoD/Fizzy.png)

And people said I was portraying Mokou too negatively. :p
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 10, 2015, 07:14:53 PM
Ups, fixed. Glad somebody noticed that after 2 years.

Also something I missed:
Comparing the Immortal Smoke maneuvers to how Mokou actually plays in ULiL is... frighteningly accurate. :lmao

(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab332/Crawlscreens/DoD/Fizzy.png)

And people said I was portraying Mokou too negatively. :p

I dunno, she seems more indifferent to saving people. Now, being hot-blooded... :lmao
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Geigan on August 21, 2015, 07:50:40 PM
Question about your monster classes Oslecamo in relation to the rule about advancing IL and maneuvers through casting PrCs. Would monster classes that do the affinity thing like mind flayer and lich advance IL, maneuvers known, and maneuvers readied similarly to how they affect casting multiclassing or would they not be strictly legal if they're not a monster "PrC" like say a ulitharid? Or would those abilities just not work for advancing Tobhou schools?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 26, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
To be honest, that's something I had never considered. :psyduck

I guess it would technically work, but I don't know how effective it would be since most martial classes offer their maneuvers readied front-loaded. Pseudocasting only gives you the new slots you would normally receive in level -up, not the base ones, so you would end with no maneuvers readied at all, or just one.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on May 03, 2016, 10:49:12 PM
Really weird question, and not sure where to put it other than here: None of the classes seem to have access to any form of healing at level 1, where in my experience, it's actually needed (since it's before you can just run around with a fistful of lesser vigor wands). Is that intentional?

Just asking because I was considering trying a pure Touhou Battle Grimoire setting (as in, these are the only classes) for the kicks, and quickly realized that, well, low level healing seems to either be the Fortune Scale at level 2, the Shrine Maiden using her 2/3's cleric at level 2, or someone using Devoted Spirit in their second "School known" slot, which, admittedly, isn't exactly a bad way to go about it, but still seems somewhat odd to rely on.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 04, 2016, 01:09:36 AM
Really weird question, and not sure where to put it other than here: None of the classes seem to have access to any form of healing at level 1, where in my experience, it's actually needed (since it's before you can just run around with a fistful of lesser vigor wands). Is that intentional?

Just asking because I was considering trying a pure Touhou Battle Grimoire setting (as in, these are the only classes) for the kicks, and quickly realized that, well, low level healing seems to either be the Fortune Scale at level 2, the Shrine Maiden using her 2/3's cleric at level 2, or someone using Devoted Spirit in their second "School known" slot, which, admittedly, isn't exactly a bad way to go about it, but still seems somewhat odd to rely on.

Mysterious Millennium has a couple at first. Even better, they work at range. Not so better, they do require potions.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on May 04, 2016, 01:40:33 AM
I saw that. The problem is that the only HP damage poison I can find is Sassone leaf residue, which costs 300. At that point, might as well just go for broke and buy a wand of lesser vigor, or just buy 6 healing potions.

Edit: which, again, 1st levels, just starting, so can't afford. Sorry, should have been clearer. Though I suppose your point was correct, so I guess I'm shifting goal posts on you. ^.^" But yeah, as I said, reason I'm asking is because I'm planning a campaign with just these classes, and I'd prefer the players survive the first level under their own power instead of through blatant DM intervention in the frm of me handing them the perfect items. Not that I can't of course, just... you know what I mean.

Edit 2: Actually, this is all a moot point since you did, in fact, answer my question. Whoops. Sorry.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on May 04, 2016, 02:13:21 AM
No no no, the poison stuff from the Dangerous Drug part of the maneuvers is a separate thing that requires spending a dosage of poison when you prep & ready the maneuver for the day. It's a separate thing from the default maneuver use that uses up a potion (any potion. Not a poison)

But yes, fair point. Those two 1st level maneuvers can not actually be used at 1st level due to complete lack of funds to own potions with.....

Other than that, yeah I guess there's no real healing maneuvers until 3rd ECL, and you'd need a couple encounters before being able to afford or acquire potions from 1st level. Personally though, it's not necessarily a bad thing. The players would just need a slightly higher level of caution and they have counters to protect themselves if you can reasonably avoid focus fire. 1st level is more survival than persevering through as many fights as possible a day.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on May 04, 2016, 02:20:55 AM
True, and its definitely not a bad thing to make them play it smart. It's more that I'd just realized that it was an issue at all, and thought I might have missed something. Eh. Worst comes to worst I'll just put in an additional house rule that the Shrine Maiden has an ACF that gives her the Ordinary Magicians casting with cleric spells instead of her 2/3 casting, and let a player pick that. Shouldn't be too broken. Thank you for your help!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 04, 2016, 05:20:51 AM
A Moon Agent gets femtofiber fabric at 1st level, and if she picks a Pure Silver weapon, she can use it to heal HP and ability damage from 1st level with no extra investment.

Lunatic Pharmacist also allows to craft poisons at half cost (1/6 market cost since crafting it yourself already reduces price by 1/3).

Also gah, really need/want to finish the Mythical Maid, but time's so short nowadays...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on May 24, 2016, 09:49:31 AM
Question: Is the Shrine Maiden supposed to be allowed to be Evil? Because the Dream Battle school doesn't really seem to work for Evil shrine maidens, since it's abilities only trigger against "Evil" targets, no matter what alignment the user is.

Asking because I was tinkering with a Lawful Evil Shrine Maiden villain, and promptly realized that, um, she'd kinda get her butt kicked by the Whatever Good PC's, because her Dream Battle abilities wouldn't trigger against them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on May 24, 2016, 11:33:46 AM
1-Dream Battle maneuvers still work fine against good non-humanoids. Angel hunter go!
2-A Shrine Maiden gets a second school besides Dream Battle, and then her own class abilities also work against everybody.
3-Several Most Dream Battle maneuvers work fine against everybody by default as well. Prayer-Exorcism, Monster Repelling Charm, Fantasy Seal-spread, Monster Buster, Boundary-Duplex Damage Bounded Field, Permanent Border, Fantasy Seal-Fader, Expanding Boundary, Ying-Yang Scattered Spirit, Dream Sign-Evil Sealing Circle, Power Sign-Yin-Yang King, Exorcising Border, Divine Arts-Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle, Light Spirit-Divine Orbs, Wild Exorcism Dance, Holy Relic-Yin-Yang Sanctifier Orb, 17 out of 35. A Shrine Maiden only knows 13 total at 20th level so there's more than enough leftover to fill that.
3b-All of the above maneuvers still do stuff against goody two-shoes humanoids. Wild Exorcism Dance still ignores DR/hardness and grants boosts to hit. Holy Relic-Yin-Yang Sanctifier Orb still dispels stuff.

So if the party is all goody two shoes humanoids, you could still make a villanous Shrine Maiden focusing on the maneuvers and stances that work equally well against everybody.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on May 24, 2016, 04:44:04 PM
Huh. That should work then! Thank you!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on June 02, 2016, 08:41:16 AM
Question: Can Ordinary and Youkai magician take spell mastery? It says it's a wizard only feat, but generally wizards are the only ones with a spell book, so it hadn't needed to be accessible by anyone else. Ordinary Magician and Youkai Magician both use spell books though, and could benefit from it and its follow up feats.

Edit for clarity: That is, would an Ordinary Magician/ Youkai Magician count as a wizard for this? I'd assume no, but it does seem like they should, since, you know, spellbooks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 02, 2016, 10:42:37 PM
No. Archivists also have spellbooks and can't take Spell Mastery.
Balance-wise, it could end in some crazy OP stuff I don't intend to promote.
Fluff-wise, both ordinary and youkai magicians lack the fancy sophisticated writing training a wizard gets.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Shadlith on June 03, 2016, 08:44:28 AM
Got it, thank you!
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 05, 2016, 06:44:08 AM
Addded some new feats (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15739.msg277223#msg277223). Easy to tell them apart, they have no pics yet.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 18, 2016, 09:26:05 PM
Hey folks, just visiting right now, but have a question to pose. Looking around for material for a Mahou Shojo game I'm helping out with and the Grimoire was among the first I thought of, but I have an opinion to ask.

Do you think the PCs should be allowed the Forbidden Schools?  I'm not sure I can justify it to the gm, I mean Great Power with High Price is something you find in mahou shojo, but I don't often find it used by the main characters. Normally it ends up being a supporting character who can't typically match up to the stars.

I can't guarantee that the players will even consider the forbidden schools, but I'd rather have a prepared answer for it, should it come up.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 09:39:12 PM
Hey folks, just visiting right now, but have a question to pose. Looking around for material for a Mahou Shojo game I'm helping out with and the Grimoire was among the first I thought of, but I have an opinion to ask.

Do you think the PCs should be allowed the Forbidden Schools?  I'm not sure I can justify it to the gm, I mean Great Power with High Price is something you find in mahou shojo, but I don't often find it used by the main characters. Normally it ends up being a supporting character who can't typically match up to the stars.

I can't guarantee that the players will even consider the forbidden schools, but I'd rather have a prepared answer for it, should it come up.

Depends on what magical girl stuff you're going through. There's definitely power-at-a-price stuff going around being used by the main characters, it's just a matter of demographic and writing as to whether it's going to show up.

I mean, the other thing with the Forbidden Schools is that they also give the GM's certain options: one of the ways to reduce the cost means fighting against it and its power-at-a-price insanity. Limiting downtime to meditate it off is also a thing.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 18, 2016, 10:02:31 PM
Well going off the typical magical girl combat time formula

You will have a maybe 2 or 3 battles...with a day or more of downtime before the next volley hits. Until things hit the serious end of the scale when you have to go up against an Army, Midboss, Endboss, and True Endboss all after the other with very little spacing. The meditate time would certainly be something seemingly easy in the beginning, but you're going to be overwhelmed if you focus on it. Unless they get a baddie using their Base school with no forbidden maneuvers, but I think it'd be more likely to find it the other way around.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 10:09:29 PM
Well going off the typical magical girl combat time formula

You will have a maybe 2 or 3 battles...with a day or more of downtime before the next volley hits. Until things hit the serious end of the scale when you have to go up against an Army, Midboss, Endboss, and True Endboss all after the other with very little spacing. The meditate time would certainly be something seemingly easy in the beginning, but you're going to be overwhelmed if you focus on it. Unless they get a baddie using their Base school with no forbidden maneuvers, but I think it'd be more likely to find it the other way around.

The forbidden cost is low early on, sure--only one or two per maneuver in the first four levels. So, that's uninterrupted time equal to an entire rest period after a day of adventuring (which will presumably be needed because of other rules) just to offset using them once or twice a battle. A failed reflex save giving you eight damage at level three wouldn't be something to scoff at, even if you're going the oni route. -5 total HP or so from Immortal Smoke is a bitch, and creates a feedback loop as you rely on it to survive fatal wounds.

Then you hit level five and the costs really start to bite. Use three level three maneuvers, or some combination thereof and a level two or so, between rests and you can't meditate off the whole penalty in an eight hour period of doing nothing else. Higher levels? Only between big adventures is going to make any headway into offsetting regular use.

It gives the GM character hooks and another reason to not allow lots of downtime during adventures, whilst giving characters increasingly big vulnerabilities to target during those adventures. The costs are going to hurt if the GM tries to use them.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 18, 2016, 10:29:14 PM
The forbidden cost is low early on, sure--only one or two per maneuver in the first four levels. So, that's uninterrupted time equal to an entire rest period after a day of adventuring (which will presumably be needed because of other rules) just to offset using them once or twice a battle. A failed reflex save giving you eight damage at level three wouldn't be something to scoff at, even if you're going the oni route. -5 total HP or so from Immortal Smoke is a bitch, and creates a feedback loop as you rely on it to survive fatal wounds.

Then you hit level five and the costs really start to bite. Use three level three maneuvers, or some combination thereof and a level two or so, between rests and you can't meditate off the whole penalty in an eight hour period of doing nothing else. Higher levels? Only between big adventures is going to make any headway into offsetting regular use.

It gives the GM character hooks and another reason to not allow lots of downtime during adventures, whilst giving characters increasingly big vulnerabilities to target during those adventures. The costs are going to hurt if the GM tries to use them.

So, you believe that they should be allowed, but make clear warnings?  I suppose if nothing else dealing with the price of them would make a few interesting points within a story. *rubs chin*

Aside from Lunatic Lancer, everything else completed in the Grimoire seems acceptable for player use in the setting.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on October 18, 2016, 10:34:56 PM
The forbidden cost is low early on, sure--only one or two per maneuver in the first four levels. So, that's uninterrupted time equal to an entire rest period after a day of adventuring (which will presumably be needed because of other rules) just to offset using them once or twice a battle. A failed reflex save giving you eight damage at level three wouldn't be something to scoff at, even if you're going the oni route. -5 total HP or so from Immortal Smoke is a bitch, and creates a feedback loop as you rely on it to survive fatal wounds.

Then you hit level five and the costs really start to bite. Use three level three maneuvers, or some combination thereof and a level two or so, between rests and you can't meditate off the whole penalty in an eight hour period of doing nothing else. Higher levels? Only between big adventures is going to make any headway into offsetting regular use.

It gives the GM character hooks and another reason to not allow lots of downtime during adventures, whilst giving characters increasingly big vulnerabilities to target during those adventures. The costs are going to hurt if the GM tries to use them.

So, you believe that they should be allowed, but make clear warnings?  I suppose if nothing else dealing with the price of them would make a few interesting points within a story. *rubs chin*

Aside from Lunatic Lancer, everything else completed in the Grimoire seems acceptable for player use in the setting.

I'd rule out anything linked to Septette if you're trying to do heroic characters. Even if you take the base school as fine, it relies on blood to use most of its maneuvers properly.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on October 18, 2016, 10:59:40 PM
Hm, true enough. I suppose you could do some adaptation but draining anything out of enemies isn't something I can place as Mahou Shojo off the top of my head unless you are power sealing them. I suppose a few cases where they are drawing out a possessing demon, but eh irrelevant either way.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Anomander on October 27, 2016, 02:48:49 AM
Something I thought I'd note, disciplines like Ancient Temple that require a feat to gain access to the discipline do not require that you trade a discipline for them. The feat states that it gives you access to the discipline and allows you to learn maneuvers from it from them on.
Just to confirm in case it wasn't intended.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 27, 2016, 05:12:21 AM
Intended.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 07, 2016, 04:44:08 PM
I know you're more occupied with the Super Robot Wars changes Os, but is there any chance you have finished more stuff for the Mythical Maid? Specifically the school since the Maid herself is only missing Capstone.

Also I'd like an opinion. Should Yuuka have just a representative school or a class as well? I've been mulling it over in my head for a while as she's my favorite character outside the ones you have finished.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 07, 2016, 05:14:30 PM
Lunar Dial is technically finished, pretty much just needs the Index cleaned up but otherwise has all the maneuvers are stated up plus the three mandatory feats, only the multi-school feat being missing.

So I guess you mean the Forbidden school? May do it this week for a change of pace. Although the poor Purple Mage Heretic is all alone in the corner. Really need to finish stating her up (and update campaigns, yay!).

As for Yuuka I had already contemplated an early draft for maneuver names, let me re-post it:
(click to show/hide)

Of course having maneuvers does not excluse having a class to help represent the character. But still should have maneuvers.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 07, 2016, 09:12:56 PM
no, I was just a goof who missed that the maneuver spoiler was actually finished.
Although if you want to give me a forbidden to toy with I won't be complaining.

And oo the names for those abilities. I like.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on November 08, 2016, 03:06:10 PM
Oh, with the changes to SRW energy and arsenal, I just realized that the Modern Maid options should probably be altered as well. The things I could do now with 75 arsenal.....
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on November 22, 2016, 05:55:34 AM
Updated Modern Maid arsenal/energy.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on January 09, 2017, 08:30:43 PM
Would anyone be willing to craft me a 5th level Gestalt (36 pt buy) Youkai Magician for use as a villain in the Magical Girl game I spoke of before?

I'm a bit occupied trying to convince applicants that "No, I don't dislike their idea, we just have a large number of tanks applying so a 2nd class build would increase your chances of being accepted."
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on January 09, 2017, 09:07:56 PM
Er... willing? I guess. But gestalted with anything in particular?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on January 09, 2017, 09:40:17 PM
No real preference.  I want her able to do some bombardment and lockdown, but be able to escape if caught in melee.

Aside from those points, go nuts. I won't need it immediately, I'm just looking for a little help to lighten my load and stress level.

I'm working on a demon lord (who isn't a demon of any sort) to use later in the game as a recurring villain.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on January 10, 2017, 06:26:48 AM
Raineh, if you end up statting said NPC please post here too and I'll create a thread to archive her. An idea I've had on the backburner for quite some time was a "Hero's Tavern" with a bunch of NPCs using tobhou stuff.

Rekmond, seems like you're organizing the campaign online, could you provide a link for me to check out just of curiosity? Or at least a rough outline of what's more/less popular?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Rekmond on January 10, 2017, 07:02:03 AM
Sure, it is over on Rpol. Has a few features I like including the simplified dice roller and the 'Character replacing user' within games. Also, you don't need a mod to create a forum for you, you can create a game forum without any assistance and it is fairly simple too.

http://rpol.net/gameinfo.php?gi=68066&date=1484048877

You'll need to click Game Menu in either top right or bottom left to go to the threads I have up so far.

As it is, you'll only be able to see the 3 threads I have up regarding applying and character creation.  Not that there is anything else right now aside from a thread where I put my random thoughts.

I'm still a very inexperienced GM though, so there isn't likely to be anything too impressive. But take a look around if you want.
I will say that there are a good number of people on Rpol who enjoy using homebrew content, but not many GMs who like it, Mythweavers tends to be friendlier in that respect.

And I like the idea of an NPC recruiting station. I might pull from it every now and then.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on August 24, 2018, 08:46:45 AM
For Septette For The Dead, All The World In Nightmare, what if we have wings, but they aren't bat-like?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on August 24, 2018, 12:30:22 PM
Seems like you get batlike wings instead. Must say that it seems like one of the weaker stances--a flight speed and some DR, but the bonus requires you to spend a ton of blood points to apply single-roll bonuses/penalties that are resisted by a will save.

Quote
If they fail and you consider them an enemy, their next 1d20 roll takes a profane penalty equal to half the amount of blood charges you spent. If you consider them an ally, their next 1d20 rolls takes a profane penalty bonus to the half the amount of blood charges you spent.

Also that part feels like it needs rewriting. Shouldn't it be "If you consider them an ally, their next 1d20 roll gains a profane bonus equal to half the amount of blood charges spent"?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on August 27, 2018, 01:01:10 AM
For Septette For The Dead, All The World In Nightmare, what if we have wings, but they aren't bat-like?

You gain two sets of wings each with their own fly speed.

Must say that it seems like one of the weaker stances--a flight speed and some DR, but the bonus requires you to spend a ton of blood points to apply single-roll bonuses/penalties that are resisted by a will save.
Unlimited darkvision is nice and there's some resistances thrown in there too.

Well, let me do a quick compare
Ancient Temple's Delusion of Enlightenment: Gain huge melee reach, but nothing else.
Dream Battle's Border World-Maiden's Fighting Bounded Field: Gain a variable fly speed that may be better or worst, ignore Aoos from moving through threatened squares, solid fogs, bad weather conditions and similar for movement purposes, can even move through enemies but that'll trigger Aoos, plus Wis as Deflection to AC. Nothing particularly big but a lot of them.
Drunken Demon's Oni Crowd "Imp Swarm" become a mob. Probably more raw power, but brings its own penalties, in particular more limited mobility overall.
Lunar Dial's Perfect Square: Gain a variable movement speed that's probably gonna be higher plus boosted Haste. Big numbers all around, but somewhat lacking in utility.
Plain History's Sacred Treasure Land: Create "safe" area plus cosmetic effects. Potentially quite powerful, but won't do anything at all if your enemy can save.
Riverside View's Way of Avici "Infinite Nightmare": Big damage buff, but a fanatic opponent can ignore it.

So it doesn't seem that weaker to me. None of the benefits may be something huge, but there's a lot of them.

Anyway now it'll still inflict a fixed -4 penalty even if an enemy makes the save but you spent 11+ blood charges and you can use it when somebody rolls a 1d20 and you know if they would fail or succeeded.

Quote
If they fail and you consider them an enemy, their next 1d20 roll takes a profane penalty equal to half the amount of blood charges you spent. If you consider them an ally, their next 1d20 rolls takes a profane penalty bonus to the half the amount of blood charges you spent.

Also that part feels like it needs rewriting. Shouldn't it be "If you consider them an ally, their next 1d20 roll gains a profane bonus equal to half the amount of blood charges spent"?
Fixed, thanks.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 02, 2018, 04:53:37 PM
Incidentally, if I take Diabolic Wave and I'm not a vampire, am I getting off scot-free from the consequences of my Forbidden Research?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 03, 2018, 01:11:59 AM
The idea was that if you lacked a Blood Charge capacity it would count as zero and drop you straight into catatonic state but that sounds a bit too harsh so made Diabolic Wave count as having 1/4 the Blood Charge capacity of a vampire for the purposes of Forbidden Cost only.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on September 04, 2018, 05:24:16 AM
Also, does simply having the feat, but never having resorted to it, prevent you from holding back?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on September 04, 2018, 05:43:58 AM
Good point, made the penalties only start to apply at 99% capacity so you don't have any problems while at 100%.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 26, 2019, 10:47:06 PM
So how would an Oni Brawler's Pure Metal Crafting related class feature function if they had something akin to Vow of Poverty working?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 27, 2019, 12:19:15 AM
Child soldier had an option added to cover for classes with options to spend money on class features, added the same for Savage's Natural Tool (basically gives you a "budget" to spend in such abilities).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 27, 2019, 12:39:14 AM
So I'd technically be able to have equipment so long as its my own crafted pure metal stuff? Coolio.  :cool
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 27, 2019, 01:08:36 AM
Correct.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 28, 2019, 03:03:09 AM
Quote
Everything Explodes.
Prerequisite: Knowledge of at least one maneuver that deals damage.
Benefit: You can use maneuvers to deal damage to attack things that interact physically with the world but do not normally have HP such as a fog or a wall of force/fire or mage's tentacles. In the case of area effects such effects count as enemy creatures. In the case of targeted maneuvers you must pick the effects as targets. They count as having 10 HP per CL/IL. If the effect was created by a spell/maneuver/similar of a lower level than the maneuver you're using, it is automatically destroyed instead.

Could maybe use some clarification or clearer explanation, especially when it mentions targeted maneuvers? Does it mean targeting maneuvers that created a persistent effect?

Does the effect being targeted have to be a visible and/or tangible effect that can be physically interacted with?


The table for Oni Brawler also has the wrong Base Reflex Save numbers for levels 4 through 9.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 28, 2019, 03:43:44 AM
Quote
Everything Explodes.
Prerequisite: Knowledge of at least one maneuver that deals damage.
Benefit: You can use maneuvers to deal damage to attack things that interact physically with the world but do not normally have HP such as a fog or a wall of force/fire or mage's tentacles. In the case of area effects such effects count as enemy creatures. In the case of targeted maneuvers you must pick the effects as targets. They count as having 10 HP per CL/IL. If the effect was created by a spell/maneuver/similar of a lower level than the maneuver you're using, it is automatically destroyed instead.

Could maybe use some clarification or clearer explanation, especially when it mentions targeted maneuvers? Does it mean targeting maneuvers that created a persistent effect?
It means that if you have a maneuver that targets specific things instead of affecting an area, then the effect you want to explode must be picked as one of the targets, clarified.

Does the effect being targeted have to be a visible and/or tangible effect that can be physically interacted with?
If the maneuver you're using demands a target then you must be able to pick them out, otherwise area effects will work regardless of you being able to detect the target or not (assuming the thing you want to explode is in the same area).

Also noticed it didn't have a pic, which also has been fixed.

The table for Oni Brawler also has the wrong Base Reflex Save numbers for levels 4 through 9.
Fixed too.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 28, 2019, 03:52:31 AM
So if I use an AoE Strike, I can destroy intangible effects? Like, Bless? Or Bardic Inspiration?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on February 28, 2019, 05:57:45 AM
Seems like I misunderstood the word (in)tagible. It needs to be something you can actually physically touch or feel.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: ketaro on February 28, 2019, 07:29:16 AM
Ah, thank you. Guess I shoulda led with the examples, haha. -_-'
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 03, 2019, 11:55:19 PM
Oni Brawler, Scholar, Cat Celebrant, Eternal Royal now got clauses that you can't add the same ability score to AC twice.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Vladeshi on March 09, 2019, 12:27:46 AM
Oni Brawler, Scholar, Cat Celebrant, Eternal Royal now got clauses that you can't add the same ability score to AC twice.

Does this also apply to temporary bonuses, say from Cat Sign ”Cat's Walk”?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on March 09, 2019, 12:39:27 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on April 01, 2019, 01:42:30 AM
The Youkaiskin's animal magic probably needs to explain what the alternative is, because right now it doesn't seem to do so.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 01, 2019, 04:18:46 AM
My bad, fixed, thanks for pointing it out!

Also no other comments?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on April 01, 2019, 04:25:03 AM
Lets say I'm a 16th level Youkaiskin.

Would it be possible for me to take summon nature's ally II on it's own, or would I have to keep taking druid spells until I had all eight spell levels fulfilled?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 03, 2019, 08:25:19 AM
If you take Animal Magic at high levels, you can pick a high level spell even if you don't have any lower level ones.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Sweetiebot on April 03, 2019, 10:23:47 AM
No look, here's what I mean

I am a 16th level youkaiskin

I take only Summon Nature's Ally II. Nothing else

Is this legal?

Also, what's the fluff cause for Youkaiskins? Do people just sometimes randomly end up becoming them, or is it something you have to specifically work to attain? If youkaiskins just occur, why do they know martial arts?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 03, 2019, 10:35:20 AM
Summon Nature's Ally does not have a range of touch or personal so it is not a legal choice.

However each selection of Animal Magic only gives you one single spell.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 03, 2019, 11:02:26 AM
Ah my bad, I meant animal ritual, that one isn't limited to touch/personal range and can pick multiple spells.

And sure you can pick only Summon Nature's Ally II if for some reason you don't want anything else, although I'm not sure why you would want to do that.

Also, what's the fluff cause for Youkaiskins? Do people just sometimes randomly end up becoming them, or is it something you have to specifically work to attain?
Can happen either way, a natural talent (pun intended) or the result of lots of exotic training.

If youkaiskins just occur, why do they know martial arts?
It comes naturally to the natural talents, like dragons just learn sorceror magic and stuff.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on April 03, 2019, 11:53:40 AM
I didn't even look to see if Animal Magic was the right ability, I can only deep dive into one project of yours at a time.  :lol
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Raineh Daze on April 11, 2019, 01:30:32 AM
An observation regarding inyeraction between Eternal Royal and Lunatic Lancer: to keep the soul spear going, LL wants to avoid refreshing maneuvers. ER, on average, has trouble keeping maneuvers expended--you can hit a bad streak, but most times that won't be an issue.

Since ER is the class that explicitly gets to sub Septette (and its cleave replacement feat) in, it might help to be able to NOT roll to refresh. Otherwise you need several rounds' prep to use the whole thing of Lunatic Lancer  for more than a round.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on April 11, 2019, 04:22:54 AM
Good point, made Eternal Royal recovery optional.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on June 19, 2019, 08:51:45 PM
I've been requested to review Tobhou which shouldn't surprise anyone at all.

Os, any requests about where I start first?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on June 19, 2019, 10:58:35 PM
The schools themselves first if you don't mind, since the project started with them and everything's kinda built around them. Also check each school's forbidden option after the "parent" school if possible.

So order suggestion would be:

Ancient Temple
Border of Life
Crystalized Silver
Doll Judgement
Dream Battle-»Fate of 60 years
Drunken Demon-»Marvelous Mt.Ooe
Love-Coloured Magic-»Cosmic Mind
Lunar Dial-»Dangerous Illusion
Lunatic Princess-»Immortal Smoke
Misteryous Millenium
Plain History-»Deaf to All But The Song
Riverside View-»Corpse Voyage
Septette for the Dead-»Diabolic Wave
Venerable Battlefield
Sky Ruin (technically works off Chinese Star but the author doesn't seem to be around the forums anymore to update it, but then neither have any unique mechanics).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on June 19, 2019, 11:20:10 PM
Of course you want the hardest stuff to review to be first.   :lol

I should get at least Ancient Temple up before the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 01, 2019, 01:19:00 AM
I completely forgot about this. Sorry about that!

I'll try to get stuff up soon. Same as before and just post all feedback in the general thread?
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on July 01, 2019, 06:37:22 AM
Yay!

And actually I would prefer specific feedback to go in the specific thread if you don't mind.  :blush
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on July 01, 2019, 09:05:43 AM
I can do that.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: MeimuHakurei on August 17, 2019, 06:39:04 PM
Looking forward to getting a moon rabbit race. I can't wait to face off with invaders and immediately get scared and hide.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on October 15, 2019, 01:47:39 PM
Now that you're back I should start reviewing again. Time to figure out what I was going to do next...
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: oslecamo on October 22, 2019, 01:45:55 AM
Looking forward to getting a moon rabbit race. I can't wait to face off with invaders and immediately get scared and hide.
Lunatic Bunny Girls are go. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11209.msg344995#msg344995)

Now that you're back I should start reviewing again. Time to figure out what I was going to do next...

Crystallized Silver school would be next I believe.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: YuweaCurtis on October 22, 2019, 10:16:15 AM
Great now I can be a literal bunny girl LMFAO. Oh yea I did have one idea I could use it for lol.
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Nanshork on October 25, 2019, 12:15:14 AM
Okay, I'm finally mentally functional post-surgery so I should be able to pick it up again tomorrow (I had my tonsils removed for those who haven't seen me talking about it on Discord).
Title: Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
Post by: Alegio on February 09, 2021, 02:23:28 PM
Hey! I'm a big fan of your homebrew and classes. I was just checking and can see that the things inside spoilers disappeared from some of them, like in the mythical maid and oni brawler classes.

Edit: Nevermind it only occurs in chrome and on my pc. Any other browser is ok and chrome in the cellphone also can see the spoilers.